It’s hard to do jumping puzzles with a big, fuzzy butt.
The GW2 "Theory of Everything"
Hm… the Chosen are supposedly just those with a large amount of magical potential. That could actually work, if one doesn’t hold too rigidly to what we concluded in the first game. If sacrifices are the only way the mursaat know how to charge the things, though, I’d rather not have them as allies.
On the EDs and gods tapping the same power source- the issue there is that the gods originally became gods somewhere else. For them to tap the same power as the dragons, it’d have to be something not tied to a specific world- which means it couldn’t be a concentration of ley lines in Tyria.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
The gods claimed to come from elsewhere and to have created humans, but we don’t have any outside confirmation of either. Even in-game sources are highly skeptical of those claims, so we shouldn’t take anything the gods say at face value. Also, it is heavily implied by the text of the King’s Watch Monument in GW1 that Doric was actually slain by the gods upon the bloodstone:
“Founded: Season of the Phoenix, 1 A.E.
To endure is greater than to dare;
To keep heart when all have lost it;
To forego even one’s own life when the end is gained;
Who can say this is not greatness?
On this site, more than one hundred years prior, the first king of the new Republic of Ascalon was crowned. It was dedicated, on this, the ninety-fifth day of the year, in the Season of the Phoenix, in honor of the passing of the greatest of all kings. This stone stands in memory to the first of all sons of Ascalon, King Doric. For it is through his sacrifice that we now live on. May his blood have been spilled for the good of all. "
Furthermore, I don’t think it was ever confirmed that the Chosen have magical potential – that was the excuse the White Mantle gave when they were hauling them away to be sacrificed.
It’s hard to do jumping puzzles with a big, fuzzy butt.
The gods claimed to come from elsewhere and to have created humans, but we don’t have any outside confirmation of either. Even in-game sources are highly skeptical of those claims, so we shouldn’t take anything the gods say at face value.
We do have outside confirmation that humans are not native to Tyria and that they came without much magic of their own though. So unless the humans of old were borderline scifi on the technological level, they would have had to relied on the Six, already godly beings, to guide and shepherd them to Tyria.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Angel-McCoy-Interview/page/3#post2821776
> Humans (including Canthan humans) were brought to Tyria (from…no spoilers!). They are not native to Tyria and did not come with much magic of their own.
That doesn’t mean that the gods made the humans nor does it answer any questions about the gods’ own origins, though.
It’s hard to do jumping puzzles with a big, fuzzy butt.
In fairness, we don’t know that the gods claimed to create humanity. That could have just as easily been something invented by the later humans, expanding on or perhaps misinterpreting the historical texts. The written sources we’ve seen, with one exception dated a thousand years after the Exodus, only refer to them bringing humans to Tyria (even that exception says they were “birthed upon the world”, with no mention of any direct involvement of the gods).
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
That doesn’t mean that the gods made the humans nor does it answer any questions about the gods’ own origins, though.
I never implied that the god made the humans. I just said that the gods would have had to shepherd them to Tyria after their original home world went caput because beings with very limited magical ability would have had an extremely difficult, near impossible, time travelling through the Mists, much less interplanetary navigation.
Your theory though states that the Six were once mortal (implied humans), and they someone tapped into the leyline network spanning Tyria to absorb enough magic to ascend into higher beings/gods. For that to work, the original Six would have either needed to…
- A) Travelled to Tyria beforehand as a group of magically limited humans, ascended into godhood in a short amount of time, travelled back to their home world, and then shepherded the rest of the race here.
- B) Travelled with the rest of the humans to Tyria, survived all the corrupted landscape and hostile species of the land, somehow were able to find the resting spots of the EDs or leyline clusters in short order (something that even evaded the Asura for the longest time), and gain enough magical ability to somehow be able to draw off and absorb all that power.
- C) The Six weren’t previously humans at all, and are simply native Tyria beings that drew magic from the sleeping EDs, went exploring in the Mists, found the humans, shape shifted into their general likeness, and took pity on them and shepherded them to Tyria for their safety.
- D) None of the above.
We don’t know that the gods brought the humans to Tyria; it could have been some other powerful being(s) or a fluke of the Mists. The gods could have been from some other race and assumed a human-like appearance in order to appeal to a ready group of worshipers. Abaddon certainly did not look human. Many other races worship the human gods or very similar deities. It wouldn’t be too much of a stretch to say that the gods predate the arrival of humans on Tyria, if in some other form.
Aaron, you make a good point. It could be that humans created that story themselves to explain their presence on Tyria.
Regardless, I only have theorized a connection between the gods and the dragons as a possible explanation for the gods’ absence. It’s not a central point of my theory, and I’m open to other ideas as to why the gods have been so distant.
It’s hard to do jumping puzzles with a big, fuzzy butt.
(edited by Blazing Liger.1236)
We don’t know that the gods brought the humans to Tyria; it could have been some other powerful being(s) or a fluke of the Mists.
Possible, but unless it is suggested or proven otherwise, we have to rely on the information provided to us on the matter (the stories, myths, and legends) that say the Six did bring the humans to Tyria.
Regardless, I only have theorized a connection between the gods and the dragons as a possible explanation for the gods’ absence. It’s not a central point of my theory, and I’m open to other ideas as to why the gods have been so distant.
The common census is that the gods, like most parents, decided it was time to allow their children, the humans, to grow on their own outside of their influence. Especially after seeing just how destructive their actions (Abaddon’s rebellion) and influence (the unrestricted Gift of Magic) is on the world. That’s why they left in their Exodus in year 0ae. The only thing keeping them semi-tied to the world was the huge loose end that was Abaddon, but after Kormir filled his seat in the pantheon, they decided to cut their remaining ties by and large.
Other popular theory include: them dealing with whatever happened in their home world, possibly large conflicts or destabilization in their realms, or they simply don’t want the EDs to eat them thus giving them a HUGE boost in power.
Not specifically stated, but hinted at:
- Conservation of Magic: magic can be neither created nor destroyed, and it is not infinite
Half of this actually is stated. The Seventh Law of Maginamics states that magic can be neither created nor destroyed but is infinite. However, in the asura personal story Gorr attempts to disprove this; while he states that he did disprove it by showing that the dragons consume magic which results in a lower concentration of magic in the world, he failed to question whether or not the consumption of magic destroys magic.
“According to the Zephryites, it does not destroy magic.”:
There’s also an event NPC in Straits of Devastation that explains magic as indestructible and takes a long time to naturally dissipate. (dialogue sadly not documented)
In the end, we get the conclusion that magic is finite, but indestructible – just changes shape. Creation of magic is still questionable, but most likely only The Mists can create magic (just as it creates worlds or chunks of reality – these worlds, if they function like Tyria, must contain magic thus if the Mists doesn’t recycle then it must create from near nothing).
There are areas throughout Tyria where the ley lines form eddies, and large concentrations of magic are gathered; these coincide with the locations of the elder dragons. The elder dragons are forces of nature, born of this accumulated magic. This means that it doesn’t even matter if we kill them, others will rise to take their place in the next age.
I’m gonna have to disagree. If this was the case, then there’d be no risk mentioned in The Map of the All or by Ogden during Hidden Arcana
While Anet likes to toss the phrase that the Elder Dragons are ‘forces of nature’, they’ve also mentioned that such is of the opinion of the standard Tyrian. We’ve seen plenty of evidence to indicate that they are not this mindless apex predator group of creatures.
And while the theory that the Elder Dragons are born of pure magic was once a thought I had, the implied existence of a dragon race through the lore on Glint, to me, hurts this theory. If there was a race of dragons, then the Elder Dragons were likely of this race, and mutated from the great concentrations of magic they’ve consumed.
There are six gods, and six elder dragons. I suspect this is not coincidence, and that there is some tie, direct or indirect, between them. We know that the gods were once mortal. I suspect that they found some way to tap into those vast stores of magic in order to ascend. Their absence may be due directly to the rise of the dragons: as the dragons gain power and devour magic, the gods’ power is weakened dramatically.
While there are six gods in the human pantheon, we actually know of 3-to-4 beings that could be counted as gods (Zintl, Koda, Ameyalli; arguable: Great Dwarf). People often forget that the Six Gods are not the only ‘gods’.
And given the origin of the Six Gods, there’s unlikely to be any direct relation – we know that at least three (Dwayna, Melandru, and Balthazar) came to the world as gods; and the Six Gods (and humans) in general are not native to the world.
Also, we know that some gods were once mortal – there’s no indication that Dwayna, Dhuum, or Melandru were ever mortal. If the “First Gen” of the Six Gods were originally mortals, the magic they tapped into was not on Tyria. But we’ve been told that the human homeworld has low/no magic – as humans were not used to the concept of magic when they arrived, and is why they thought magic to be a gift from the gods.
Furthermore, the absence of the Six Gods has been explained – they left because of the sibling rivalry with Abaddon, and the damage they caused. They left over a thousand years before the Elder Dragons began to awake, and went silent half a decade before the first began to stir.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
I have always suspected that the Chosen are simply the descendents of King Doric, and thus their blood was needed to activate the stones.
In claim, the Chosen had more magic/magical talent than other individuals. In actuality, it seems that the term only refers to the group of individuals who would kill the mursaat race (aka Prophecies PC and co.). The term has NEVER been used outside of the context of the Flameseeker Prophecies, which implies that the White Mantle’s claim (that they had more magic/magical talent) is a 100% BS lie.
The bloodstones were never actually activated, as best we can tell, but were instead used as a conduit – a means of transition of the Chosen’s souls into the soul batteries via the runes on the bloodstone.
I also believe we never saw or defeated all of the Mursaat; most of them remained deep in the Maguuma where Saul D’Alessio found them, or hid themselves in a dimension out of sync with our own.
Nothing actually says that Saul went into the Maguuma. Just sayin’.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
The gods claimed to come from elsewhere and to have created humans, but we don’t have any outside confirmation of either. Even in-game sources are highly skeptical of those claims, so we shouldn’t take anything the gods say at face value. Also, it is heavily implied by the text of the King’s Watch Monument in GW1 that Doric was actually slain by the gods upon the bloodstone:
Actually, the oldest human records (which would imply governed by the gods) claim that the gods created the world, not that they came from elsewhere. As provided already, we have dev statement that the original claims (gods created and came from the world) are false.
And no skepticism is given to the claim that the gods (or humans) came from another world. Except maybe by old-school humans who preach that the gods created the world. And we know those NPCs are wrong – like fundamentalist Christians!
Okay, sorry, sorry, I take that back. >.>
That doesn’t mean that the gods made the humans nor does it answer any questions about the gods’ own origins, though.
Nor is it relevant to the topic, whether or not the gods created humans.
It does, however, deny the possibility of the gods becoming such after being on Tyria.
We don’t know that the gods brought the humans to Tyria; it could have been some other powerful being(s) or a fluke of the Mists.
Actually… all indication says that they did.
There is nothing other than the original claims that the gods made humans (sources proven false time and time again even in GW1’s timeframe) that indicates otherwise or implies skepticism on the claim that humans were brought to the world by the Six Gods.
Abaddon certainly did not look human.
Abaddon lost his body when he was defeated in Year 0, and was recreating it from the landscape of the Realm of Torment throughout Nightfall. His original appearance (the appearance he gave to Malchor, at least) was very much human-like.
Many other races worship the human gods or very similar deities. It wouldn’t be too much of a stretch to say that the gods predate the arrival of humans on Tyria, if in some other form.
If by ‘many’ you mean ‘one, with sects from three others’ then you’d be right. Aside from humans, only the Forgotten worshiped the Six in full; there were a few centaurs that worshiped/revered Balthazar, one naga that was named for Dwayna, and churches of Grenth and Dwayna among the dwarves. But the Six were primarily – and always – highly restricted to humanity in faith; hence their other name “the Human Gods”.
Regardless, I only have theorized a connection between the gods and the dragons as a possible explanation for the gods’ absence. It’s not a central point of my theory, and I’m open to other ideas as to why the gods have been so distant.
There’s no need to theorize the reason for the gods’ absence, as it is known to us per the Word of God.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
If by ‘many’ you mean ‘one, with sects from three others’ then you’d be right. Aside from humans, only the Forgotten worshiped the Six in full; there were a few centaurs that worshiped/revered Balthazar, one naga that was named for Dwayna, and churches of Grenth and Dwayna among the dwarves. But the Six were primarily – and always – highly restricted to humanity in faith; hence their other name “the Human Gods”.
Yes, I did mean that some races worshiped ONE of the human gods. We have Melaggan who may or may not have anything to do with Melandru, and I recall some source claiming that the early Charr worshiped Melandru (I can not for the life of me remember where that was stated). The Prophecies manuscripts also says that the druids may have worshiped Melandru. Melandru seems to be the one human deity most often worshiped by other races.
The gods are not only absent now, they’re also distant. In GW1 times, people were able to enter their realms and they also communicated with humanity via their avatars. In the Cathedral of Silence story step, the Avatar of Grenth asks the player to kill the undead priest of Grenth because he is too weak to do it himself. One wonders if the avatars are weakened due to the gods’ distance from Tyria. We know the Seven Reapers were once mortal, but I don’t know of any lore about the avatars of the other gods.
Abaddon lost his body when he was defeated in Year 0, and was recreating it from the landscape of the Realm of Torment throughout Nightfall. His original appearance (the appearance he gave to Malchor, at least) was very much human-like.
As for Abaddon, yes, the statue makes him look as though he’s just wearing a cowl. Still not quite human (his hands look rather bestial), but certainly humanoid.
Nothing actually says that Saul went into the Maguuma. Just sayin’.
The Manuscripts say that Saul was blindfolded and ridden out from Kryta for three weeks before being dumped there. I imagine that would leave him in the Maguuma somewhere, but if someone wants to try to calculate where he may have ended up, by all means.
And while the theory that the Elder Dragons are born of pure magic was once a thought I had, the implied existence of a dragon race through the lore on Glint, to me, hurts this theory. If there was a race of dragons, then the Elder Dragons were likely of this race, and mutated from the great concentrations of magic they’ve consumed.
As for the origin of dragonkind on Tyria, we honestly don’t have enough information. Since Glint was corrupted, not created, by Kralkatorik, it’s possible that the elder dragons are merely the oldest of some ancient dragon race. Whether or not the dragons are actually born of magic itself, I still think their locations coincide with the largest amount of ambient magic on Tyria. It makes sense, after all, for them to stay by a ready food source.
In the end, we get the conclusion that magic is finite, but indestructible – just changes shape.
I have suspected that magic works like this: ambient magic flows through the ley lines. The Forgotten sealed as much of that magic as possible into the bloodstone to keep it away from the dragons. Abaddon allowed mortals to tap into the bloodstone, the gods got mad, chaos ensued, and the bloodstone wkittentered into pieces and locked with Doric’s blood. Previously magic was separated into different schools with no overlap because of the bloodstone configuration. But as magic was drawn from the bloodstone, it returned to the ley lines. So much magic has left the bloodstones that they are likely nearly depleted; the dragons have a lot of magic to devour. The rise in ambient magic has also broken down the previously separate magical schools; the kind of advanced magic used by the asura and the Priory simply wouldn’t have been possible when most of the magic was locked within the bloodstones. Some magic returns very quickly to the ley lines, some of it more slowly. Enchantments are magic held in the items enchanted, hence why the Mouth of Zhaitan was devouring so many magical trinkets.
It’s hard to do jumping puzzles with a big, fuzzy butt.
(edited by Blazing Liger.1236)
Yes, I did mean that some races worshiped ONE of the human gods. We have Melaggan who may or may not have anything to do with Melandru, and I recall some source claiming that the early Charr worshiped Melandru (I can not for the life of me remember where that was stated). The Prophecies manuscripts also says that the druids may have worshiped Melandru. Melandru seems to be the one human deity most often worshiped by other races.
- Nothing really says Mellaggan and Melandru are the same, aside from a slip-of-the-tongue of a non-lore-focused dev and human proclamations. Either way, the quaggan do not see Mellaggan as Melandru, so saying the quaggan worship the Six isn’t entirely correct until we know the two are the same.
- Charr had legends of Melandru creating Tyria, but they never worshiped her.
- Druids were a faction of humans, not their own species. They transformed into the plant-like beings we have always seen them as later on (about 100-10 years prior to GW1).
Still far from many races worshiping the Six, or one of the Six.
As for Abaddon, yes, the statue makes him look as though he’s just wearing a cowl. Still not quite human (his hands look rather bestial), but certainly humanoid.
He’s clearly wearing gloves…
The ‘tendril hair’ is part of his mask; beneath his mask you can see human lips (easier to see during Temple of the Forgotten God); his ‘clawed hands’ are clearly gloves when you observe close enough. He’s a man in a toga with a fancy mask and gloves.
The Manuscripts say that Saul was blindfolded and ridden out from Kryta for three weeks before being dumped there. I imagine that would leave him in the Maguuma somewhere, but if someone wants to try to calculate where he may have ended up, by all means.
It’s said he was left in a ‘forest’. There’s several forests in and around Kryta. He was also taken from the Watchtower Coast area, which is far closer to Woodland Cascades to the north. THere’s also the forested areas to the south, now called Bloodtide Coast and Sparkfly Fen thanks to the risen and Orrian flooding.
As for the origin of dragonkind on Tyria, we honestly don’t have enough information. Since Glint was corrupted, not created, by Kralkatorik, it’s possible that the elder dragons are merely the oldest of some ancient dragon race. Whether or not the dragons are actually born of magic itself, I still think their locations coincide with the largest amount of ambient magic on Tyria. It makes sense, after all, for them to stay by a ready food source.
Why their locations coincide with large amounts of ambient magic is pretty clear to me:
When they sleep, magic seeps out of them. The asura and gods utilized his seeping magic from Primordus and Zhaitan respectively; it’s possible that Abaddon/Titans/Charr did the same from Kralkatorrik. Magic even seeps out of dragon champions (Drakkar and Svanir’s story).
If ley lines are the paths of least resistance for magic to flow, then it’s only natural that the ley lines will ‘lead’ (or more accurately: originate from) the Elder Dragons, and around them, pools of magic will form – the magic that they lost.
I have suspected that magic works like this: ambient magic flows through the ley lines. The Forgotten sealed as much of that magic as possible into the bloodstone to keep it away from the dragons. Abaddon allowed mortals to tap into the bloodstone, the gods got mad, chaos ensued, and the bloodstone wkittentered into pieces and locked with Doric’s blood. Previously magic was separated into different schools with no overlap because of the bloodstone configuration. But as magic was drawn from the bloodstone, it returned to the ley lines. So much magic has left the bloodstones that they are likely nearly depleted; the dragons have a lot of magic to devour. The rise in ambient magic has also broken down the previously separate magical schools; the kind of advanced magic used by the asura and the Priory simply wouldn’t have been possible when most of the magic was locked within the bloodstones. Some magic returns very quickly to the ley lines, some of it more slowly. Enchantments are magic held in the items enchanted, hence why the Mouth of Zhaitan was devouring so many magical trinkets.
As far as our information goes, you’re mostly right. But you are missing the fact that magic seeps out of dragons when they sleep – a confirmed, known, fact. This is why the schools of magic became irrelevant – not because of magic leaving the bloodstones, but because of the introduction of non-bloodstone magic into the world at higher levels than bloodstone magic.
Also, it was the Seers, not Forgotten.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Personally, I don’t think the Mists create magic when they create worlds. The Mists are magic, and the magic of the Mists goes into the creation.
This is essentially similar to some cosmological theories about the cause of the Big Bang: there was previously a higher-energy vacuum that transitioned into a lower-energy state, and the energy that was released became all of the known universe. Energy has neither been created or destroyed, but has simply changed form. (One of the fears of proponents of this theory is that the vacuum hasn’t reached ground state yet, and it could transition again, wiping away our universe to create a new one.)
This would mean that you could theoretically funnel magic into Tyria from the Mists, possibly a theoretically infinite supply. However, the rate at which you could do so would be roughly proportional to how much of the Mists around your world you control… which explains the Mist War.
Regarding the Chosen: While it was in the context of the Flameseeker Prophecies, Vizier Khilbron did make a link between being Chosen and having the potential to Ascend. That implies that there is some link between being Chosen and the potential to Ascend, which we now know does have potential significance outside the bounds of the Flameseeker Prophecy.
To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
If OP is right and pact armies will run out of magic, will that make Rangers useful again?
“When there’s no point in doing something, the best idea is not to do it.”
Errors with the OP’s post;
Only one god is shown to have ascended from a pure mortal to ‘god’ after deposing Abbadon (Kormir), another is reported to have ascended from being the child of a mortal and Dwayna after deposing Dhuum (Grenth). The original six; Balthazar, Melandru, Dwayna, Dhuum, Abbadon and Lyssa have an extremely murky past and it has never been mentioned that they were ever mortal. I think you may be confused between Ascension in the generic term and ‘Ascension’ from GW1.
There is a book in the priory library stating that there is no evidence for any link between the six gods and the elder dragon. We do not know at all why the gods became absent, it is unlikely to be due to their power weakening, as there are a few times in which we get in contact with one of Grenth’s reapers who would likely say something along the lines of Grenth being in trouble and would likely aid the Tyrians against the Elder Dragon more to save their master.
The six gods arrived from the mists onto Tyria where the dragons had already been for millennia and it pretty much seems the six were unaware of the Elder Dragon’s presence.
If OP is right and pact armies will run out of magic, will that make Rangers useful again?
Half of what rangers do requires magic, so no.
Only engineers and warriors would profit; and warriors only in theory.
But such a change wouldn’t happen to GW2’s mechanics because that’d ruin a lot of things.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Only one god is shown to have ascended from a pure mortal to ‘god’ after deposing[…]
Imo in future maybe we will discover that every of them ascended in way that glint’child will ‘ascend’ / ‘elder-evolve’ / ‘magic-sphere-fication’. I’m especially wait to see that Dwayna was from very noble Largos’ House. Imo she and her priestess from Cathedral of Zephyrs near Tempest Waypoint were largos. Largos or at least she traveled to other world and then she back with other gods to Tyria or that whole race is from other world. Time much time will pass until things will be unfold. Until that we can speculate.
Only one god is shown to have ascended from a pure mortal to ‘god’ after deposing[…]
Imo in future maybe we will discover that every of them ascended in way that glint’child will ‘ascend’ / ‘elder-evolve’ / ‘magic-sphere-fication’. I’m especially wait to see that Dwayna was from very noble Largos’ House. Imo she and her priestess from Cathedral of Zephyrs near Tempest Waypoint were largos. Largos or at least she traveled to other world and then she back with other gods to Tyria or that whole race is from other world. Time much time will pass until things will be unfold. Until that we can speculate.
The OP said “We know that the gods were once mortal. I suspect that they found some way to tap into those vast stores of magic in order to ascend.”
Hence my post saying we know that is not the case as the origins of the 6 gods because we don’t know where they come from except Grenth and Kormir, and they became as such by deposing the previous gods, Abbadon and Dhuum.
Also the Largos ‘wings’ are more akin to fins of a ray, whereas the priestess was pretty much wearing a costume as well as Dwayna pretty much having nothing to do with the realm of the Lagos, nor looking like one at all.
Dwayna’s wings were always depicted as feathered, and other depictions have no wings at all and blue skin (the Dervish Avatar of Dwayna). Largos are all about assassination and death, as well as being a deep sea race. Dwayna was the Goddess of Life and Air and the one who brought the humans to Tyria from the mists, as well as being Grenth’s mother.
The similarities between the Risen Priestess and the Lagos is more practical, as the wiki states thusly;
“Early concept art for Lyssa’s statue shows her wearing a mask similar to those of the largos.1 Perhaps too much should not be read into this; for example what was originally supposed to be a Risen Largos ended up being used as the Risen Priestess of Dwayna.”
(edited by Pyriel.4370)
Pyriel, it’s worth noting that we know Abaddon had a predecessor too. We don’t know his state of divinity prior to replacing his predecessor,whether he was mortal like Kormir or half-mortal like Grenth, but we know he wasn’t always a god.
And given that Balthazar had a father and has a half-brother implies That he was born (again, unknown state of divinity upon birth).
As for Dwayna and her wings… Elonian legend says that the harpies were once servants of Dwayna but fell from grace – what if it was the other way, and Dwayna was once a harpy that rose into grace?
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
I think your reading a little too much speculatively.
Deities in plenty of religions are born and have parents, most pantheons are like that, so there would be nothing strange there.
My objection is where you say ‘we know that they were once mortal and ascended’, which it may be the case that they are all still ‘mortal’ as we can ‘kill’ them as we did with Abaddon, but we do not know anything prior to their arrival from the Mists.
Pretty much all accounts of them center around them arriving from the mists already powerful beings, in which they, seeded many races unlocked the bloodstones and gifted magic to mortals and then left after the fall of Abaddon.
They would be classed as ‘immortal’ but only in their agelessness probably. The asura probably have the best version that they are part of the eternal alchemy, powerful beings, but nevertheless a part of something larger, though they are pseudo-confirmed to be not related to the elder dragons.
As for Dwayna and her wings… Elonian legend says that the harpies were once servants of Dwayna but fell from grace – what if it was the other way, and Dwayna was once a harpy that rose into grace?
Nice one. Harpies have their own language, but still in PS they weren’t mentioned as minor race to make relations to fight with elder dragon nor we didn’t [I don’t remember] friendly ones. That race deserves a bit of lore, maybe something that will change perceiving from beasts into minor race.
@About largos and that they are only assasins etc, nope, definitely we can’t mark them only on by challengers and hunters that we met. Rhajel mentioned Houses. Since that I link them with nobles like Kurzicks, but with mystery shrounding them and huntings/challenges interest instead of singing and turning people into moloches.
@@About how could possibly fins and scales become wings and feathers? There could be easy answer: they see her figure, they lose their eyesight and how they will tell what they saw? first what will come to human mind if saw something like that will be: she had wings, cuz flying beings and wings are popular in human memetic if it would be opposite we would have more history registers about water beings with fins like wings and scales instead feathers. I could also prove nothing, but it is speculation so let it be.
My objection is where you say ‘we know that they were once mortal and ascended’,
You seem to have me confused with the OP there.
Personally, I believe that Dwayna and Melandru are part of the original pantheon. Main reason falls in the Hall of Heroes – it has statues of several winged females. This, I believe, has significance.
which it may be the case that they are all still ‘mortal’ as we can ‘kill’ them as we did with Abaddon, but we do not know anything prior to their arrival from the Mists.
All gods – not just the Six – seem to fall unto typical polytheistic religion rules around divinity – it does not mean indestructible, just the power to shape, and reshape, reality at will with little to no effort, and unaging (sometimes being ‘unaging except under certain conditions’ such as norse gods having golden apples they ate to retain their longevity; in one myth, said apples were stolen by Loki and he caused the gods to age until he decided to return the apples which restored them to their previous appearance).
So I would indeed say that the gods are ‘mortal’ – in the sense that ‘mortal’ means ‘killable’. We’ve seen/heard of two gods dying already, after all (Abaddon and his predecessor).
The asura probably have the best version that they are part of the eternal alchemy, powerful beings, but nevertheless a part of something larger, though they are pseudo-confirmed to be not related to the elder dragons.
Well of course the asura would have some degree of correctness to them. They claim that all things relate to each other in actions and purpose, directly or indirectly.
This is basically calling forth the butterfly effect but on a cosmic scale. The gods are part of the Eternal Alchemy, they claim, because the Eternal Alchemy is the study of how all things work.
It’s no different than saying “the gods are real” (in the sense of being real in the GWverse, to clarify). It would be no different than saying “Hitler had huge influence in the world” or “the Sun is a large part of why the solar system functions the way it does”.
They butter it up with fancier words, but that’s technically what the Eternal Alchemy is: how a piece of everything, everywhere, everywhen, works and is tied to other parts of everything, everywhere, and everywhen, and how those parts are tied to other parts of everything, everywhere, and everywhen, etc. etc.
@@About how could possibly fins and scales become wings and feathers? There could be easy answer: they see her figure, they lose their eyesight and how they will tell what they saw? first what will come to human mind if saw something like that will be: she had wings, cuz flying beings and wings are popular in human memetic if it would be opposite we would have more history registers about water beings with fins like wings and scales instead feathers. I could also prove nothing, but it is speculation so let it be.
That’s unlikely. Malchor only went blind after memorizing every detail of Dwayna. He saw each god for how they truly looked, and sculpted them. He did work on Dwayna’s statue while blind/becoming blind, but he was careful to rest his eyesight while working on all other five gods – and he only wasn’t careful with Dwayna because he loved/was obsessed with her.
Mortals losing their eyesight isn’t a ‘instantly upon looking at a god, one goes blind’ but rather ‘if looked at for too long, mortals go blind’. This is why our GW1 characters didn’t go blind when looking upon Abaddon/Kormir. They didn’t look long enough.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Mortals losing their eyesight isn’t a ‘instantly upon looking at a god, one goes blind’ but rather ‘if looked at for too long, mortals go blind’. This is why our GW1 characters didn’t go blind when looking upon Abaddon/Kormir. They didn’t look long enough.
It brings to me that I fought that rytlock is blind, cuz he looked at gods, but if its case of looking too long then probably it isn’t like that, becouse he isn’t a kind of person who stare at others / show so much interest. So there remain version: that he made them mad so they unleashed a bit of power to blind [punish him] or he isn’t blind, but cover his eyesight for sake of better communication with mists.
One thing that’s different about Dwayna and Melandru is that there is nothing that hints at having relatives (apart from descendants). This could just be a matter of ‘absence of evidence is not evidence of absence’, but since the two are the senior members of the pantheon, it’s possible that the are the very first generation.
Regarding the largos resemblance: I’m inclined to think this is simply a matter of using the risen largos model – after ArenaNet decided not to have actual risen largos – to represent the corruption of Zhaitan on a winged humanoid. Feathered wings become these leathery flaps that are the corrupted remains of where the feathers used to attach.
To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
In terms of not knowing if dwayna has feathers, the dervish themselves communed into a wingless avatar, and the statues that Malchor sculpted, he did AFTER witnessing them, his version of Dwayna has angelic wings.
The largos ‘fins’ and risen priestesses of dwayna is literally a model thing, not really lore related.
Well the eternal alchemy does have a problem, like Konig correctly stated, that it does not seemingly allow for random, it is purely a fate or destiny driven machine, very unlike the real world equivalent of the ‘theory of everything’ in which the eternal alchemy tries to explain actions, outcomes and events, things that are unpredictable.
I do however believe that it is the closest to a true description of the six gods. The harpies issue with Dwayna isn’t so strange in other mythologies like Greek, where gods frequently made ‘their representative race’.
I would set the original pantheon that we know of as Melandru, Balthazar’s Father, Dwayna, Dhuum and Abaddon’s predecessor.
@Konig, you are correct about my confusion over the OP, apologies.
The OP makes some grand speculations on part of the six gods, however, as we have in lore only seen one human become a god, but that was with the help of the other 5. Also his speculation as to the reason for their absence has been debunked in the priory library.
The best way to think of the nature of the six is that they are completely separate from the Elder Dragons, as the Elder Dragons seem intrinsic with the nature of Tyria, but the gods are not explicitly from Tyria (except Grenth and Kormir).
In terms of Mursaat involvement, I would suggest that they are ‘enemy of my enemy’ or instead, based on their previous cowardice with the last rise of the Elder Dragons, allied with Mordremoth in exchange for magic, as their race was nearly entirely wiped out. Or they could potentially be a third option and purely in it for themselves. We know there is a bloodstone nearby where the HoT area is, we also know that they are not nice or well-meaning beings (their treatment of Saul being evidence of this) who have previously abused bloodstones. They could be after the bloodstone for their own power and have jumped into action to prevent ‘their’ stone from being taken by mordremoth or the races of Tyria.
One thing that’s different about Dwayna and Melandru is that there is nothing that hints at having relatives (apart from descendants). This could just be a matter of ‘absence of evidence is not evidence of absence’, but since the two are the senior members of the pantheon, it’s possible that the are the very first generation.
Technically speaking, we can say the same for Dhuum, Abaddon, and Abaddon’s predecessor about any relatives.
What’s interesting to me however is the fact that Grenth is called the “first Tyrian born god”. This implies that Dhuum, Abaddon, and Lyssa all came from the other world. Unless it happens to be that they are, in fact, younger gods than Grenth (however, aside from Lyssa’s scriptures being dated 3 years after Balthazar/Melandru/Grenth’s there’s no indication of such.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
I think the problem we have is that not only is there gaping holes in their history, with grenth we can put 2 and 2 together and state that he is Malchor’s son, as he ‘rose where his father fell’, malchor jumped from ’malchor’s fall’ in Orr, so we could place him becoming a God at a somewhat specific timeline before the exodus, after the creation of the statues, before the exodus, at the fall of dhuum. Same with Kormir in terms of we know specifically where she became a God.
Lyssa’s scriptures probably were dated later due this this (from GWW);
“Lyssa spent time living among the humans, veiled and hidden, in the village of Wren. However, when Arah was completed she was called to join the other Gods.”
This is further confirmed in the Orrian History Scrolls;
“For a while she lived, veiled and hidden, in the village of Wren. When the building of Arah was completed Lyssa was commanded to join the other gods, though her tears fell like rain among the western road.”
Lyssa is the 4th entry after Dwayna, Balthazar and Melandru, so it could be safe to say that with Grenth being the 6th, that the other gods do predate him.
Interestingly according to GWW;
“Long before the Exodus of the Gods, Dhuum was challenged and usurped by Grenth and seven heroes who followed him and was struck down in the ossuary of the Cathedral of Eternal Radiance in Orr.” Suddenly I am going to visit and scour around Orr a bit…..
In terms of the dating of the scriptures, I would like to see if any Anet staff could give us the date in which Arah was being built/established, the date of the first statues being completed and maybe a date of when Grenth ascended.
Pyriel, that line in the GWW is from the Orrian History Scrolls. In early GW2’s life, some of GW2’s lore got placed on GWW until GWW editors decided ’let’s keep GWW for GW1 lore only’.
The second quote is also from GW2 – half of it being from The Cathedral of Silence personal story instance, the other half being from the skill challenge/PoI in Malchor’s Leap (Dhuum’s Last Stand), the third half being from Ossuary of the Unquiet Dead (stating that the room where the challenge/PoI is, is the Cathedral of Eternal Radiance’s ossuary/crypt).
Arah is stated to be the first city on Tyria, this would place its creation to be fairly early on – somewhere between 205 BE and 100 BE for sure, but likely closer to 205 BE. Though, it should be noted, that the Forgotten freed Glint in Arah, and a dev had confirmed that the ritual they used require geological location as part of the ritual indicating that Arah existed for thousands of years before humans arrived on Tyria (as this ritual took place before the Six showed up). This indicates that the gods and humans merely renovated Arah, not built it.
Grenth’s ascension into godhood would have to be somewhere between 205 BE (when humans arrived via boat on Tyria) and 48 BE (when the event of the Scriptures of Grenth happen). Given the details of the scriptures, with Desmina being his first follower, this means that between his rise and the scriptures’ events he was unknown to being a god. Indicating that his rise to power might have been in 48 BE itself.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Konig: That’s true: I was considering the current 6, not the predecessors. Abaddon has no known familial relationships, but on the other hand, we know he had a predecessor and thus couldn’t have been the original Knowledge. It seems likely that Dhuum was the original Death, and Abaddon’s predecessor could have been the original Knowledge.
To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
If ‘The All’ is a general law for reality in the GW universe, isn’t there a possibility that the Six are in fact the “Elder dragons” from a different reality? One where the balance was broken, with disastrous consequences, leading the Six to finding a different universe for humans to live in?
Joy to the world, ignorance is bliss
That’so be theory going about, though it’s less other universe and/or reality, and more ‘other world’.
The All is basically Tyria’s version of the Antikytheria mechanism concept, and only extends to the individual world of Tyria. For this reason, it would be that Scarlet did not see the Eternal Alchemy as she claims, as the Eternal Alchemy is the interworkings of all things – The All is just the interworkings of the world and Elder Dragons, magic, spheres of power, etc. Scarlet isn’t the only one to make this mistake.
It is unknown – but again theorized by players to be so – if other worldshave their own version of ‘The All’.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
It’s an interesting concept at the very least, being able to somewhat link the Six to the Elder Dragons, without needing a direct link in this version of Tyria.
Joy to the world, ignorance is bliss
The gods claimed to come from elsewhere and to have created humans, but we don’t have any outside confirmation of either. Even in-game sources are highly skeptical of those claims, so we shouldn’t take anything the gods say at face value.
We do have outside confirmation that humans are not native to Tyria and that they came without much magic of their own though. So unless the humans of old were borderline scifi on the technological level, they would have had to relied on the Six, already godly beings, to guide and shepherd them to Tyria.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Angel-McCoy-Interview/page/3#post2821776
> Humans (including Canthan humans) were brought to Tyria (from…no spoilers!). They are not native to Tyria and did not come with much magic of their own.
I’d wager several (not all) of the human gods were originally a people from another world, some of the last, and probably were indeed modern sci-fi levels of tech.
The remnants or offspring of these originals ultimately began to span the world. When we began on Tyria it was like a reset button.
We were a primitive small number of people and slowly began to develop and multiply.
We began as a magically limited alien people and over time we became a part of the world of Tyria and magic came to us with our ‘gods’ blessings.
These originals ascended to a point where they became an intricate part of this new world in a metaphysical way.
An asura might say they became very large cogs of the eternal alchemy.
I also believe they have some kind of yin-yang relationship to the elder dragons of Tyria. It’s unclear to me how it works though or why.
When you look at gods like Balthazaar, Dwayna, Grenth, Kormir/Abbadon… all of them have very human personas and origins.
I think Melandru is a native ‘god’ of the world of Tyria, nature, who ultimately accepted and adopted us.
Several native species to the world have claims or stories of being created by Melandru.
Lyssa was originally a singular native being, a ‘god’ of energy and ether, who took a fancy to humanity after testing us.
It ultimately took one of our own and changed herself into a multi-faced ‘god’, a ‘twin’ goddess based on that event and the one she chose (a kind young woman from a village).
Lyssa remains alien enough from humanity that she’s her own thing, and close enough to us that she adopted one us literally as a part of herself and became a multi-faced being based on us for whatever reason.
Maybe Melandru and Lyssa thought humans were cute and had to have us? I dunno. lol
I’d wager several (not all) of the human gods were originally a people from another world, some of the last, and probably were indeed modern sci-fi levels of tech.
Grenth is outright called the ‘first Tyrian-born god’, we also know that Dwayna, Balthazar, and Melandru stepped onto Tyria from a portal. So that means that Dhuum, Abaddon, and Lyssa would also have joined Dwayna, Balthazar, and Melandru.
However, Lyssa is also outright stated to have unknown origins (while Dhuum and Abaddon also have unknown origin stories in relation to Tyria for us players, it is implied that the NPCs of Tyria know such stories to various degrees by this), so it is possible that she is the first Tyrian-born god, and Grenth the second, and this fact was hidden from humanity.
I highly doubt that they were of ‘modern sci-fi levels of tech’, however. Nothing indicates such, and humans showed up tribal with oral technologies. While they advanced quickly to Iron Age equivalents by all appearances shortly after their arrivals (within 100 years) of each continent, to me this would mean that they couldn’t have been so advanced as being sci-fi levels of tech – modern or otherwise.
When we began on Tyria it was like a reset button.
Even if this was the case, the gods would have kept some remnant of their old world technology. We see no sign of such, anywhere at all. Not in development, in the gods, or in ancient ruins. When such things are part of plots, there are always – and I mean always – some ancient relic that ‘looks like magic’ but is actually technology.
But we have nothing at all to indicate such.
The fast development shows that humans arrived to Tyria with some form of civilization already developed, and the movement to Tyria would more than likely reduce the stage of development, but not to great amounts as to revoke the entire civilization down to oral tradition with no stories of grand technologies of the past. The lack of such stories either indicate a species-wide mindwipe or that their fall of technology wasn’t great.
These originals ascended to a point where they became an intricate part of this new world in a metaphysical way.
If what you mean is that the Six Gods became gods post-arrival, we know this isn’t true. Three at least arrived on the world as gods. Implied five or six of the known gods.
I think Melandru is a native ‘god’ of the world of Tyria, nature, who ultimately accepted and adopted us.
Melandru is outright stated to have come from another world.
Several native species to the world have claims or stories of being created by Melandru.
Only charr, actually, have such claim that aren’t native (Forgotten and human).
Lyssa remains alien enough from humanity that she’s her own thing, and close enough to us that she adopted one us literally as a part of herself and became a multi-faced being based on us for whatever reason.
Then why is Lyssa the one who remained with humans the longest, and weeped when she had to leave them? Why is she revered as the most caring and loving goddess – potentially more so than Dwayna?
I doubt this, extremely.
Her origins may be unknown to even Tyrians, but it seems apparent that she is no different than the other six gods.
Besides, if she and Melandru were not part of the Six Gods, the rivalry to the Elder Dragons you mention falls apart – though it rather does all by itself anyways.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Orrian_History_Scrolls#The_Six
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Quiz_Terminal#Terminal_1
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Quiz_Terminal#Terminal_4
Worth reading over…
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.