Guild Wars 2

I’ve always wondered, do we ever actually hear anything about what happened to the nameless hero from Guild Wars 1?

I mean it just seems criminal that the person/people who saved Tyria on countless occasions has their deeds lost to time (Apart from a small mention in the Eye of the North). As far as I am aware there are no descendants to speak of, no record in Tyria proper as to what happened to him/her after the Elder Dragons awoke. Did they die? Did they pass to the hall or heroes? or perhaps they ventured into the mists never to return?

Whatever the case, I’m intrigued as to where they ended up. Would be nice to hear other peoples theories on this.

The nameless hero is referring to the player character in Guild Wars 1, so it’d be unfair to give them any hint of specific identification since everyone made their characters differently. Labeling them as the ‘nameless hero’ lets the players (who carried out these great achievements in Guild Wars 1) know that they are being referred to.

Well, the PC did took part in the preliminary of the Foefire and should be in Ascalon. After all the PC did witnessed in person the cinematic of the Foefire after the failure of rescuing King Adelbern. The conclusion is logically PC should have died in the Foefire and should be around as a ghost. The Hall of Monuments is inhabited by ghosts too so it is fitting.

@Orvaald: I believe it’s been stated by devs that they didn’t want to give a canon end to the GW1 hero(es) because of the game being a roleplaying game. They wanted to leave it open ended so that players can make their own ending to their character.

@James: Unfortunately, the GW1 PC(s) are never even mentioned, let alone called ‘nameless hero’. You might be thinking of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier just north of the Ascalon Settlement, but this doesn’t refer to the GW1 hero at all.

There is no ‘nameless hero’.

@Avariz: such a thing never happened. The last acts of the PC in GW1 were Winds of Change, which took place in 1080 AE – ten years prior to the Foefire (taking place in 1090 AE).

In DR, you can find two scholars. One of which mentions finding a scroll talking about a hero who left Ascalon, traveled Tyria, and fought a Lich. I forget how she phrases it, but it sounds like a variant storytelling of Prophecies storyline. The main thing different, entirely possible just translation error or writer viewpoint, is they mention “Fled Ascalon before the searing.” I think.

Descendents? Well that could easily be any GW2 human character in the end. I would say it’s not that they aren’t remembered at all, but more of the details are lost. Translation from then to now may be different, could be they purposefully chose to not be in the spotlight, etc.

I do wish we knew what happened to Ascalon’s chosen though. Aka Devona, Eve, Cynn, Mhenlo, Aiden. We know at least four Ascalon henchmen from prophecies have living descendants.

Avariz.8241:

Well, the PC did took part in the preliminary of the Foefire and should be in Ascalon. After all the PC did witnessed in person the cinematic of the Foefire after the failure of rescuing King Adelbern. The conclusion is logically PC should have died in the Foefire and should be around as a ghost. The Hall of Monuments is inhabited by ghosts too so it is fitting.

Um what? That never happened.

Kalavier.1097:

In DR, you can find two scholars. One of which mentions finding a scroll talking about a hero who left Ascalon, traveled Tyria, and fought a Lich. I forget how she phrases it, but it sounds like a variant storytelling of Prophecies storyline. The main thing different, entirely possible just translation error or writer viewpoint, is they mention “Fled Ascalon before the searing.” I think.

You can find them in Rurikton somewhere.

Scholar: Find anything good?
Scholar (2): Yes! I found some rather remarkable scrolls about a group of adventurers some centuries ago.
Scholar (2): They escaped Ascalon right before the Searing, crossed the Kingdom of Kryta, joined and betrayed the White Mantle, and even faced a lich lord!
Scholar: Wow. Maybe someday, we’ll meet heroes like that.

Scratcherclaw.2713:

Kalavier.1097:

In DR, you can find two scholars. One of which mentions finding a scroll talking about a hero who left Ascalon, traveled Tyria, and fought a Lich. I forget how she phrases it, but it sounds like a variant storytelling of Prophecies storyline. The main thing different, entirely possible just translation error or writer viewpoint, is they mention “Fled Ascalon before the searing.” I think.

You can find them in Rurikton somewhere.

Scholar: Find anything good?
Scholar (2): Yes! I found some rather remarkable scrolls about a group of adventurers some centuries ago.
Scholar (2): They escaped Ascalon right before the Searing, crossed the Kingdom of Kryta, joined and betrayed the White Mantle, and even faced a lich lord!
Scholar: Wow. Maybe someday, we’ll meet heroes like that.

Right off that little Plaza with the Kormir statue.

Well, well, well, the instance where the PC failed to fight off the hordes of Charr from King Adelbern is now looking more like the first episode of Scarlet living story where it is presently in-access-able. *shrugs

Avariz.8241:

Well, well, well, the instance where the PC failed to fight off the hordes of Charr from King Adelbern is now looking more like the first episode of Scarlet living story where it is presently in-access-able. *shrugs

Again, never happened, I’m wondering if you are confusing parts of “The Last Day Dawns” quest (which involved defending Adelbern against titans) for other events?

I’m sure I would’ve known about such a quest line existing before GW2 launch.

Kalavier.1097:

Avariz.8241:

Well, well, well, the instance where the PC failed to fight off the hordes of Charr from King Adelbern is now looking more like the first episode of Scarlet living story where it is presently in-access-able. *shrugs

Again, never happened, I’m wondering if you are confusing parts of “The Last Day Dawns” quest (which involved defending Adelbern against titans) for other events?

I’m sure I would’ve known about such a quest line existing before GW2 launch.

No not that one.

Avariz.8241:

No not that one.

That is literally the only quest in the whole game were you directly defend Adelbern.

I wish there were more nods to the PC from GW1. It doesn’t make any sense that no one but two scholars and the ghosts in the Eye of the North would remember the person that brought down several evil factions, a lich, a rogue envoy, a dragon champion and a freaking mad god (well two if you count Dhuum too).
Sure they can’t use name or gender of the PC, but the Elder Scrolls games manage to give enough credit with the same restrictions. I remember being so stoked when I ran through Oblivion and heard people talking about the Nerevarine (the PC from Morrowind). I wish GW2 could give me the same feeling.

Avariz.8241:

Well, well, well, the instance where the PC failed to fight off the hordes of Charr from King Adelbern is now looking more like the first episode of Scarlet living story where it is presently in-access-able. *shrugs

Unlike GW2, there was no release in GW1 which was temporary content, with the sole exception of two quest chains in Kryta about Kurzicks and Luxons, served to be previews for Factions – neither included Adelbern.

The only quest in GW1 where you defend Adelbern from charr is The Last Day Dawns, but he (very clearly) lives past that (as failing to defend Adelbern there results in quest failure and takes place in 1072 – whereas the Foefire takes place in 1090).

Whatever you saw, if you actually saw something, it was not in the game – either game if it included the GW1 PC.

I heard you all the first time. Don’t have to repeat. Otherwise I would just repeat the same following: Nevertheless disregarding my haziness in the details that lead up to the original Foefire cinematic, I did see a cinematic that is original from the human view that came before the AC Foefire cinematic which is a remake after and which is from the view of the Charr, in game.

Avariz.8241:

I heard you all the first time. Don’t have to repeat. Otherwise I would just repeat the same following: Nevertheless disregarding my haziness in the details that lead up to the original Foefire cinematic, I did see a cinematic that is original from the human view that came before the AC Foefire cinematic which is a remake after and which is from the view of the Charr, in game.

But it is completely bullkitten. No such cinematic ever existed in game. Stop spreading outright lies, when it is rather clear that you have no sort of proof whatsoever for your claims and multiple others have pointed out that you are wrong.

There is/was an original King Adelbern foefire cinematic from the human perspective in game. Only after GW 2 was launched that the AC remake was shown from the Charr perspective. I leave it at that.

Avariz.8241:

There is/was an original King Adelbern foefire cinematic from the human perspective in game. Only after GW 2 was launched that the AC remake was shown from the Charr perspective. I leave it at that.

No there was not. Multiple people in this (and the other thread) have played GW1 since it was released. None of us have ever heard about nor seen the cinematic (or even the situation) you describe. So unless you can actually supply any sort of proof for it I would suggest you stop spreading these lies.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The last acts of the PC in GW1 were Winds of Change

What about the Lunatic Court stuff that came out after WoC? I think that was after anyway.

narwhalsbend.7059:

What about the Lunatic Court stuff that came out after WoC? I think that was after anyway.

It was in between War in Kryta and Winds of Change. There was supposed to be more, but they disbanded before that.

Or well, War in Kryta (2010) —- Lunatic (Halloween) (2010) —- Hearts of the North (2010) —- Winds of Change (2011).

lordkrall.7241:

narwhalsbend.7059:

What about the Lunatic Court stuff that came out after WoC? I think that was after anyway.

It was in between War in Kryta and Winds of Change. There was supposed to be more, but they disbanded before that.

Or well, War in Kryta (2010) —- Lunatic (Halloween) (2010) —- Hearts of the North (2010) —- Winds of Change (2011).

Was that really five years ago? Wow.

Avariz.8241:

There is/was an original King Adelbern foefire cinematic from the human perspective in game. Only after GW 2 was launched that the AC remake was shown from the Charr perspective. I leave it at that.

The AC cinematic was 100% new, actually – not a remake in any way, shape, or form.

There isn’t any form of hint or indication of the Foefire happening in GW1 – never was, and given the state of things, never will be.

I have played EVERY content in GW1 with the exception of the Factions preview stuff and the Prophecies beta stuff (as I was not playing at that time), and no such thing exists or ever existed.

If you sincerely believe it existed, then you either saw some fan-made video on Youtube, or you dreamed it and began thinking it was a memory.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

I wish there were more nods to the PC from GW1. It doesn’t make any sense that no one but two scholars and the ghosts in the Eye of the North would remember the person that brought down several evil factions, a lich, a rogue envoy, a dragon champion and a freaking mad god (well two if you count Dhuum too).
Sure they can’t use name or gender of the PC, but the Elder Scrolls games manage to give enough credit with the same restrictions. I remember being so stoked when I ran through Oblivion and heard people talking about the Nerevarine (the PC from Morrowind). I wish GW2 could give me the same feeling.

Factions rise and fall all the time.

And techincally, Prophecies events happend with a bunch of heroes (Devona and Crew, then the other henchmen). Factions had their own cast of henchmen… then Devona and crew. Nightfall had, again, Devona and crew with new henchmen (mostly sunspears).

EOTN had a varied group from all three campaigns.

Sure, the example you use had a built prophecy AND a title. I don’t know of a good title for the factions hero, but “The Sunspear” is vague (one I made concerning GW1 heroes as Revenant spirits). and “the Chosen” also covers a huge number (Cause IIRC, Khilborn was the flameseeker).

The Gw1 hero exists, it’s just explicit names/descriptions have been lost from passage of time. With the HoM system (at least how it was introduced), descendents would be GW2 human chars for those you played GW1, so they COULD, with difficulty, have npc descendants, but it’d again have to be vague.

IMO, there is only so much you can do with vague references. Too far one way, they are completely unknown and forgotten. Too far another, Anet has built a ‘canon’ GW1 hero for all the campaigns or one for each.

As it stands, those two scholars provide a nice reference to the player character of Gw1 prophecies, and I’m sure if we went to Cantha or Elonia, we may see references to those characters as well.

The thing is, the way they do it right now it illogical and inconsistent with the current lore. Compared to the PC even figures like Adelbern, Salma and Gwen are absolut historical footnotes. It straight up makes no sense that they would be widely remembered while the PC would be mostly forgotten.
A real world comparison would be Alexander the Great. He conquered the largest empire of his time and to this day one of the largest that has ever existed. Nobody would have dared to think that one person can do this, in a few years to boot. And unlike many other great characters from antiquity he was not forgotten and rediscovered by scholars later on. No his memory was always present. Every roman emperor knew of Alexander, many wanted to be like him. Even after the fall of the Roman Empire people like Charlemange studied Alexander’s life. Throughout the muslim world to India and even China, all those cultures had records of the man and his deeds.
What the PC did in GW1 is very much comparable to Alexander’s conquest. So why would he be almost forgotten? Anet should decide, either the PC did not exist and his deeds were accomplished by several different groups (like the different henchman and heroes, who are more broadly acknowledged in lore anyway) or they give the PC the credit he deserves. This is not a matter of ego, like I want “my” achievements to be recognized. No it’s really about inconsistency.

A lot of people complained and complain that GW2 lore has barely any connection to GW1 lore. You’ll often here that the games are set in the same world, but that’s about the extent of common ground they have. Anet usually counters this with saying that GW1 was only about human lore and with GW2 they also have to take 4 other races into account. But I would say that is at most 50% of the reason. More importantly, all of GW1’s story revolved around the PC saving a kindom, continent or even the world. Ignoring his existence is ignoring the entire plot of all of GW1’s campaigns. Really in lore, who did kill the Lich? Who stopped the titans? Who fought Shiro in the emperor’s palace? Who helped Kormir ascent to godhood? All those things are never mentioned in GW2.
And then it comes to how do we acknowledge the PC, well it’s not to late to just give him a title now. Champion of Tyria for example. It’s broad enough to apply to characters from all campaigns and it’s still strong enough in magnitude to let the reader recognize that it refers to the PC from GW1. Or Champion of the Gods, the last HoM title, could also work. The name of the character is not used out of reverence. He is to much of a legend for his name to be defiled by speaking it when not necessary. Yeah that could be a pseudo-religious aspect. Atleast in human culture.

And if you look, in GW2 the henchmen are also not heralded or praised in legend, besides maybe Gwen for founding Ebonhawke.

In the end, the player character did not settle and become head of a town or leader of a nation/major faction. As I said maybe here or in another topic, we don’t have any glimpse of what happened to Devona, Aiden, Mhenlo, Cynn, or Eve.

Again, for the most part, all those high end instances? Happened with at LEAST 8 people. More if you are similar to me and view all the henchmen being involved in some way compared to just sitting in camp doing nothing.

Yes, the hero was the driving/most powerful force no doubt, but it was a group. They didn’t destroy the Lich, Shiro, Abbaddon, or the Great Destroyed by themselves.

So yeah, that’s why I say it’d be harder perhaps to remember exactly who was that hero who killed the Lich. And if they (canon wise) went more toward obscurity then spotlight (IIRC, that’s how winds of change kinda sounded), That’s another factor.

Edit: Point is, Major characters like Devona and Crew who actually took part in all three campaigns + Expansion, in terms of history, aren’t as well known as Gwen, who in comparison just killed Great Destroyer and founded Ebonhawke.

There are more nods to henchmen and heroes than to the PC. Not a lot, but we do have stuff like books written by Mhenlo and Koss, as well as graves for some of them if I remember correctly. I would appreciate them being mentioned more too.

And it’s not like the PC was Batman and hid his identity. Sure GW1 gave us hints that the PC’s identity wasn’t known by everyone, I think Miku had the line were she jokingly suggested to kill a god, not knowing that the PC actually already did that. In that case I would argue it’s due to being in Cantha while the showdown with Abaddon happened in Elona. While a few years passed between the events, I could still see that someone living more of an street rat life for years would not know any details about even a major event on another continent.
I would go so far and say let’s exclude the stuff that the PC did in Cantha and Elona. He/she was still involved in major events in Tyria. Too many to be so obscure to the public. I mean shouldn’t Krytan history books mentioned who took part in the war in Kryta? It’s not like the war was mostly forgotten, even Blimm’s relatively minor participation was still remembered in Ghosts of Ascalon (admittedly he spent the rest of his life in Kryta as a counselor to Livia, but still that’s less than the PC did).

Not counting the technical problems that you cannot say anything specific about the GW1 PC, the non-existing information about him/her can be explained by the story.
In Winds of Change we find out that he/she see himself/herself less as hero and more as a killer. So it kinda makes sense that he/she wanted to be forgotten.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ministry_of_Oppression#Intermediate_dialogue
this mission shows its kinda nice

BuddhaKeks.4857:

I would go so far and say let’s exclude the stuff that the PC did in Cantha and Elona. He/she was still involved in major events in Tyria. Too many to be so obscure to the public. I mean shouldn’t Krytan history books mentioned who took part in the war in Kryta? It’s not like the war was mostly forgotten, even Blimm’s relatively minor participation was still remembered in Ghosts of Ascalon (admittedly he spent the rest of his life in Kryta as a counselor to Livia, but still that’s less than the PC did).

Barely remembered. Dougal had to go rooting in the city archives to figure out who he was, and there was hardly anything recorded there. Our character’s could be the same, another name lost at the bottom of a pile of scrolls.

Besides, what would they be mentioned for? More than half of Prophecies takes places either on behalf of kingdoms that no longer exist or in uninhabited regions where there isn’t anything in the way of witnesses. The best candidate would be their work with the Shining Blade… but aside from ascended trinkets, how many references do you see to Evennia, Saidra, Markis, Barthalos, or Livia? If the other figures who had just as much or more importance aren’t discussed in the streets, why would our characters be any different?

@Derom: We shouldn’t forget that the context here is WoC. The PC (from now on refered to as “he” for ease of reading) was used to commit atrocities, which caused him to start to question his decision making. That however doesn’t mean that he thought everything he did before was highly questionable too. But even if that was the case, just because you want to disappear from collective memory, doesn’t mean you can just do it. J. Robert Oppenheimer probably wasn’t too happy with his involvment of developing the atomic bomb, but he is still remembered as it’s “father”. So again, the PC was much to prominent in many important history shaping events all across the continents to be easily forgotten.

@Aaron: Humanities history records seem overall quite shabby. Still I wouldn’t call events like the culmination of the Flameseeker Prophecy, the subsequent attack on the titans (I couldn’t resist, sorry) and the fall of the White Mantle regime as stuff that is not worth mentioning in historical records. Especialy the last one is comparable to the US not mentioning the War of Independence in any of their history books (or insert any other nation shaping event). It’s that important.
Of course the problem goes deeper than just the PC not being mentioned anywhere, it’s the symptom of two underlying problems.
1.) Anet tries to tell GW2’s story from the point of view of 5 races instead of one. While I’m generally in favour of this, it makes one thing very obvious. Humans have a lot of more lore attached to them than any other race. Charr are on second but they aren’t even close. So in order for the others to catch up, human lore is often skipped over, or the focus is shifted to Ascalon/Lion’s Arch so that they can also develop the Charr/the other races while they are at it.
2.) They are afraid of going against anyone’s head canon. Right now the solve this problem by barely acknowledging the PC and his allies even existed. Again it’s not much, but if they even beginn to mention anything that happened in the first game, it’s usually something one of the NPCs did.

I really wonder if you would take a player who has never played GW1 nor has ever read anything on the wiki or in the lore forums about GW1’s plot and guide him to every piece of information you can find in GW2 about the story of the first game, would he be able without your help, to piece together what happened? The way I see it there is a huge gap, he might figure out that you start in Ascalon and you flee after the Charr attack. Then you somehow end up in Kryta but it get’s fuzzy there. Something about a guy blowing up Orr is mentioned too. And then Salma takes the throne of Kryta? Is that the plot of Prophecies?
Now of course GW2 is a new game, it doesn’t have incorporate an entire plot summary of the first campaign. But something like the Durmand Priory should have an abundance of books about the story of the first game. That’s pretty much what is there for to beginn with.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

@Derom: We shouldn’t forget that the context here is WoC. The PC (from now on refered to as “he” for ease of reading) was used to commit atrocities, which caused him to start to question his decision making. That however doesn’t mean that he thought everything he did before was highly questionable too. But even if that was the case, just because you want to disappear from collective memory, doesn’t mean you can just do it. J. Robert Oppenheimer probably wasn’t too happy with his involvment of developing the atomic bomb, but he is still remembered as it’s “father”. So again, the PC was much to prominent in many important history shaping events all across the continents to be easily forgotten.

Yeah it is weird, sure, but it is still possible. I mean yes, the PC was involved in pretty much everything that happened at the time, but prominent? Mhenlo, Evennia, Salma, Livia, Kormir, dunkoru, koss, togo. They drove the plot forward most of the time. The PC was just killing any obstacle in their they.
Also in contrast to the GW2 PC, the GW1 counterpart never fought alone. There was always a team.
I think WoC was the first story where the PC was the main character (together with miku).

BuddhaKeks.4857:

and the fall of the White Mantle regime as stuff that is not worth mentioning in historical records. Especialy the last one is comparable to the US not mentioning the War of Independence in any of their history books (or insert any other nation shaping event). It’s that important.

Funnily enough, that’s the only one on the list that is addressed- regarding the nature of the White Mantle (not even that they once ruled) your character specifically says “They didn’t teach us that piece of history in school,” as well as " I thought the White Mantle were just a children’s tale told on Mad King’s day." The sentiment is echoed in the next quest, with a bartender remarking “I didn’t even know the White Mantle was real!” It could be that the information was deliberately suppressed, or that education among the masses simply sucks, but either way that chapter of Kryta’s history isn’t common knowledge anymore. We do see it’s still known among the higher ranks, and probably among the more educated, but that leads back to the second problem: how would that translate into an in-game mention? The primary mechanism for conveying knowledge in GW2 is streetside conversations, so unless it happens to take place in front of a memorial or graveyard, a war believed to be long since over isn’t likely to be brought. To use your example, I’ve never had a public conversation about the American Revolution outside of classrooms and the Fourth of July.

To be clear, I’m not arguing that the "GW1 PC should or should not be brought up. I simply maintain that it broadly makes sense that they aren’t.

Derom.1205:

Not counting the technical problems that you cannot say anything specific about the GW1 PC, the non-existing information about him/her can be explained by the story.
In Winds of Change we find out that he/she see himself/herself less as hero and more as a killer. So it kinda makes sense that he/she wanted to be forgotten.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ministry_of_Oppression#Intermediate_dialogue
this mission shows its kinda nice

And from that dialogue, it sounds more like the Player character would rather be forgotten then remembered. They don’t see themselves as a hero, and regret the amount of death they’ve caused simply “because a good cause”. Even if a chunk of those cases WERE good causes, it still weighs on them.

And as others said, lack of witnesses. If you didn’t go back to LA at end up prophecies and boast, who would know you killed the lich? That’s why the scholar’s reference makes perfect sense. Some firsthand (or secondhand) account of the events. Back then everything would have to be hand-written to be copied.

And even while some get refence, others simply do not get a thing at all. Aiden, Eve, Cynn, and Devona for example. Plenty of other henchmen as well. There are four npcs in DR that are direct descendants from GW1 ascalon henchmen, but you’d only know that if you knew the last names of said henchmen (which wasn’t ingame at all).

While I’d love to see references to GW1 events, It’d be hard. Though IIRC, Odgen makes a comment toward you which implies you remind him of the GW1 hero? Again no names mentioned.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Humanities history records seem overall quite shabby.

The irony of this statement is that for the entirety of GW2’s development after the first trailer’s release, humans’ ‘speciality’ compared to the other races was supposed to be historical knowledge. It was what made them still relevant compared to the sylvari’s immunity, charr’s industry, asura’s magic, and norn’s brute strength.

Yet all the history talking seems to be done by non-humans every time, even times it revolves around Orr and the human gods.

Kalavier.1097:

Derom.1205:

Not counting the technical problems that you cannot say anything specific about the GW1 PC, the non-existing information about him/her can be explained by the story.
In Winds of Change we find out that he/she see himself/herself less as hero and more as a killer. So it kinda makes sense that he/she wanted to be forgotten.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ministry_of_Oppression#Intermediate_dialogue
this mission shows its kinda nice

And from that dialogue, it sounds more like the Player character would rather be forgotten then remembered. They don’t see themselves as a hero, and regret the amount of death they’ve caused simply “because a good cause”. Even if a chunk of those cases WERE good causes, it still weighs on them.

And as others said, lack of witnesses. If you didn’t go back to LA at end up prophecies and boast, who would know you killed the lich? That’s why the scholar’s reference makes perfect sense. Some firsthand (or secondhand) account of the events. Back then everything would have to be hand-written to be copied.

Exactly.
I wonder if it was planed by devs, so there is a lore reasons for the missing information about the PC. Or maybe it was just something of a meta-commentary about the story of GW1.
Anyway, WoC FTW!

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The irony of this statement is that for the entirety of GW2’s development after the first trailer’s release, humans’ ‘speciality’ compared to the other races was supposed to be historical knowledge. It was what made them still relevant compared to the sylvari’s immunity, charr’s industry, asura’s magic, and norn’s brute strength.

Yet all the history talking seems to be done by non-humans every time, even times it revolves around Orr and the human gods.

Thank you, that’s exactly what annoys me so much. Remember the first Halloween in GW2? The scavenger hunt for the Mad King’s memoirs? That was history lessons done right. And they had the opportunity to something similar during LW Season 1, when humanity celebrated itself in DR. They could have just put an NPC named “[insert name here] the Historian” there and he could have summed up the plot of Prophecies or the War in Kryta. It wouldn’t have been distracting from the living world plot and it would have been a cool nod to GW1. Other options are plaques like the Marriner and memorial plaques in LA. They could put them in places of siginificance from GW1. Though I’d prefer an NPC over a plaques.

@Kalavier: Well it seems to me there are quite a number of people who knew who killed the Lich. But even if somehow nobody ended up knowing what happened, despite two of the people there being called “historian” and “scribe”, that still does not explain why the War in Kryta is forgotten. Again a nation shaping event, and not a single person cares that it happened, if they even know it happened in the first place? Even if the new krytan government blocked out all documents of the event, they can’t erase people memories. How do you think we still know the bad emperors of the Roman Empire today? All of them went through “kitten atio memoriae”, their deletion from all monuments and historical records and yet we still have detailed records of all their lives, because someone always wrote something down or passed the stories to their kids for them to write them down.

Edit: Just to drive the point home, this is what the historian and the scribe say after the PC killed the Lich:
Orrian Historian McClain: “As a historian and a father, I thought it important that my son and I be here to witness this momentous event. Besides, Cheswick was practically rabid with excitement about seeing you again. Had I not brought him, I’m afraid he would have run off to come anyway.”
Symon the Scribe: “I have accompanied His Majesty, King Adelbern, to document this auspicious occasion in accordance with my duties as royal scribe. Care to make a statement for posterity?”

Kalavier.1097:

In the end, the player character did not settle and become head of a town or leader of a nation/major faction.

I think this nails it. The PC, regardless of campaign or origin, is essentially rootless, with no long-term social ties to cement his legacy. The PC started out as a nobody without the community history or ties of the NPCs who trained him or otherwise interacted with him. And the PC always moved on to something else too quickly to really establish himself in any community. He’s easily forgotten in the press of current events once he moves on.

In Prophecies, from the point of view of the Ascalonians who remained with Adelbern, the PC is just another exile who ran off with the disinherited prince. Anything you did up to that point gets credited to Rurik anyway, he being the one who formed and lead the Vanguard. The PC has no real ties to the Ascalonians.

Then you get the refugees through the Frost Gate and help them set up in Kryta after Rurik is snuffed. But you aren’t there long before you’re off dealing with the White Mantle and bopping around the Maguuma, Crystal Desert, etc. Captain Greywind is the one who remained to provide the day-to-day leadership for years, and he’s the one who got the big memorial in GW2. He, and others, remained with the wagons and kept order in the camps along the way, so they are easily remembered by the rabble better than the guy who was out of sight doing hero stuff to make the path safe. The PC has no real ties to the refugee Ascalonians either.

After the War in Kryta, did Salma grant the PC a title or a place in her court or a even a position as the lowest private in her army or the rawest recruit in the Shining Blade? No. You were off to the Far Shiverpeaks again while the Shining Blade and Lionguard and some suck-up advisers remained for years to clean up the mess and establish the new government. Out of sight, out of mind. The PC has no real ties to the Krytans or any organization there.

In Elona, the PC was Kormir’s right hand and considered the leader of the Sunspears in Kourna and Vabbi when Kormir was absent. But, when it was all over, the PC essentially had no position or authority left. Politics took over, someone else became Spearmarshal, and the PC went wandering once again. The PC has no real ties to any culture or organization in Elona.

In Cantha, the Emperor threw a party and promised the PC the honor of all Canthans forever. Yay, us! Winds of Change showed us how short “forever” could be. The PC had no position in the court, in the army, with the Kurzicks or Luxons, or even as a teacher in the monastery. The PC has no real ties to any culture or organization in Cantha.

The PC didn’t have the history or connections anywhere to get any kind of leadership position, and no chosen leader in his right mind would have wanted the PC as a subordinate after he had made his reputation as a slayer of liches, gods, and ghosts. So the PC couldn’t have started down in the ranks to eventually work his way to the top. Other than that, how would the PC have established himself anywhere? Is there anything more useless than a retired hero?

History remembers those who provide day-to-day leadership for the long term, not itinerant troubleshooters who are quickly forgotten once they move on. Who was that hero behind the mask? I dunno, but he left this silver doojigger before he rode off into the sunset. “Yeah, yeah, you killed a lich last year. He’s dead, we’re not, cool story bro. What have you done for me lately? We got troubles here. Go make yourself useful and kill some bandits or gtfo.”

BrettM.9062:

Kalavier.1097:

In the end, the player character did not settle and become head of a town or leader of a nation/major faction.

I think this nails it. The PC, regardless of campaign or origin, is essentially rootless, with no long-term social ties to cement his legacy. The PC started out as a nobody without the community history or ties of the NPCs who trained him or otherwise interacted with him. And the PC always moved on to something else too quickly to really establish himself in any community. He’s easily forgotten in the press of current events once he moves on.

The other major nail is that the Player character DID NOT DO all of that alone. As I keep saying, Devona and crew were always there, the henchmen (and later heroes) were there as well. So we aren’t talking about a single hero who slaughtered their way through the Mursaat army and then killed the lich, but a group of heroes.

And, even then. Who in the guild of Ascalon’s Chosen (Devona and crew) is remembered publically and openly today? Nobody. You have books by Mhenlo, but that’s it. Meanwhile Gwen who only killed the Great Destroyer and founded Ebonhawke is still remembered.

And we were always on the move. We didn’t stick around even in the campaigns. We arrived and did what we had to do, then left quickly. Factor in the WoC comment, likely they wanted to be forgotton.

It sounds like less of they think they were fighting for bad cases in the past, but more of that they were blindly following them, where as the Ministry of Purity is the first time they’ve actually looked hard at what was going on.

edit: About the Historian/scribe. Back then those books and scrolls would have to be hand-copied. So it’s not like it could spread news fast by writing. And again, translation errors/damage to scrolls/mistakes while copying it.

Kalavier.1097:

edit: About the Historian/scribe. Back then those books and scrolls would have to be hand-copied. So it’s not like it could spread news fast by writing. And again, translation errors/damage to scrolls/mistakes while copying it.

A copy of the Ascalon census managed to survive the Searing and two years of abandonment in the rubble perfectly intact. I don’t know how a well maintained scroll could get damaged to easily when copying.

That the PC was part of a group of adventurers does not make it more likely that he was forgotten, in fact it makes it more likely that they are remembered. The probability of one person being forgotten is higher than the probability of 8 or mor being forgotten, especially if some of those people wrote books that are still available to the general public to this day. Others went to become headmasters/trainers at academies (Mhenlo, Dunkoro). By association alone it’s more likely that the PC is remembered as being a companion of one of those and vice versa.

And I still don’t see the WoC comment as any kind of proof that the PC wanted to be forgotten. All he expressed is that he did not want to be used like this anymore, that he would reflect more before just jumping into action. Maybe even that he would stop adventuring altogether, but I see nowhere in any sentence that he thinks that all he ever did was for the wrong reasons. And even if so, again, as I said before it usually doesn’t matter if you yourself don’t want to be remembered in a certain way or at all, as a single you person you have very little influence on how people remember you when you reached this level of prominence. It’s the Barbara Streisand effect, the more you want something to be gone from peoples memories the more likely it will stay in their memory.

On to the last point: Yes preservation methods weren’t that great in ancient times, and unfortunately the largest part of sources are just gone, destroyed by the tides of time. However this in our world, Tyria has two things going for it: 1.) The Durmand Priory, an organization founded before the rise of Orr that managed to safe quite a lot of documents from Lion’s Arch and 2.) Magic that helps preserve documents and in some cases even grants visions of the past. I would say it’s actually more likely for a historical document to survive in Tyria than in our world, despite all the cataclysmic events that befall the place every odd year.
And now we must not forget that the PC not only stopped global threats, no he spent a lot of time helping the average people, killing pests on the field, finding lost heirlooms and building snowmen for the children on winter’s day. And you are still going to tell me that not a single person would remember this guy or girl? Especially to you BrettM, I have to ask, have you even played GW1? The PC had an easy time establishing friends wherever he went. If it be for helping the people of Beetletun surviving an attack of the undead (Elder Hezron: “Your defeat of that undead horde has earned the gratitude of all of Beetletun, <Player name>. Your name will live forever in our hearts.”) or teaching a little girl how to dance (Mina: “Thank you for teaching me to dance. You’ve got smooth moves!”). The PC may have not had a place he called home, but that doesn’t mean he did not have people he called his friends. Especially his companions that he ran into again and again (Devona in EotN: “Hail, friend. I am glad to have you by my side up here. The Norn are colder than snow.”). So please don’t pretend the PC was some kind of anti-social loner who no one would have missed or remembered once he disappeard, because it simply could not be further from the truth.

Edit: I thought I just drop some more quotes about the PC
Devona in NF: “I am glad to be with you, my friend. There is no one else I would rather have at my side.”
Cynn in NF: “Good job, hero! I heard the Elders are planning a statue of you in Kamadan!”
Aidan in EotN: “I have trekked down many paths. I am glad to have had you by my side on so many of those journeys.”
Jora: “Thanks to you, I can become the bear once more. For that I am forever grateful. We will hunt together again.” (btw Jora is still remembered for slaying Svanir, but she said herself she couldn’t have done it without the PC, yet nobody remembers him? That goes contrary to the Norn’s nature of spinning legends, they would not simply ignore the PC’s contribution. That would be dishonorable)

Should I go on and pull more quotes from NPCs calling the PC a friend and someone to be remembered?

narwhalsbend.7059:

Kalavier.1097:

edit: About the Historian/scribe. Back then those books and scrolls would have to be hand-copied. So it’s not like it could spread news fast by writing. And again, translation errors/damage to scrolls/mistakes while copying it.

A copy of the Ascalon census managed to survive the Searing and two years of abandonment in the rubble perfectly intact. I don’t know how a well maintained scroll could get damaged to easily when copying.

I said Translation errors. It’s possible that the written language is different now then it was back then, so the person (may have)translated “After the searing” into “before the searing”. IIRC, the priory has a bunch of scrolls, some damaged, some not, which are in a pile of “Waiting to be translated”.

The two scholars don’t really mention the state of the scrolls. Just that they had found them.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

That the PC was part of a group of adventurers does not make it more likely that he was forgotten, in fact it makes it more likely that they are remembered. The probability of one person being forgotten is higher than the probability of 8 or mor being forgotten, especially if some of those people wrote books that are still available to the general public to this day. Others went to become headmasters/trainers at academies (Mhenlo, Dunkoro). By association alone it’s more likely that the PC is remembered as being a companion of one of those and vice versa.

I didn’t say forgotten entirely. Just that details could be lost. Aka, if a lone hero kills the big bad by himself, and everybody learns, they are remembered detail wise. It’s easy to remember the details of a single hero, vs the details of everybody in a group of 8 or more.

You see, my personal viewpoint is that all henchmen present in an outpost were involved in the missions in some way, and in Nightfall, heroes all were involved too. In EOTN however, you’d have the EOTN heroes and the EOTN henchmen only, as the Nightfall heroes went back to their lives post-campaign.

And I still don’t see the WoC comment as any kind of proof that the PC wanted to be forgotten.

IMO, the hero didn’t see themselves as a hero at that time(WoC). They might know for sure the causes they fought for mostly were good in the past, but Purity was the first one they got heavily involved in that showed the true colors early(ish) on.

On to the last point: Yes preservation methods weren’t that great in ancient times, and unfortunately the largest part of sources are just gone, destroyed by the tides of time. However this in our world, Tyria has two things going for it: 1.) The Durmand Priory, an organization founded before the rise of Orr that managed to safe quite a lot of documents from Lion’s Arch and 2.) Magic that helps preserve documents and in some cases even grants visions of the past.

Translation errors are a thing, even IRL.

And now we must not forget that the PC not only stopped global threats, no he spent a lot of time helping the average people, killing pests on the field, finding lost heirlooms and building snowmen for the children on winter’s day. So please don’t pretend the PC was some kind of anti-social loner who no one would have missed or remembered once he disappeard, because it simply could not be further from the truth.

The hero had friends, for sure. But would Beetletun notice if he died somewhere in the far shiverpeaks? Not really. He saved their town, they are thankful for that (and the ones who lived then would probably recognize him), but as time goes on, the stories would slow possibly. He saved them from destruction by undead that one time, then the White mantle happened. Also, as others have said, Kryta seems to have done an effort to hiding the White Mantle and that part of history from general, open knowledge.

Again, Devona is a fine example. She knew the hero yes… but in GW2, where are monuments or stories told of Ascalon’s Chosen? Devonas team went from Ascalon, through ALL the events of the three campaigns and EOTN. You can find a book or two wrote by Mhenlo, but hardly any other references by NPCS to those people. My point is, the hero is remembered, but the DETAILS have been lost. We don’t know their name for example, but we know what they have done.

Kalavier.1097:

I didn’t say forgotten entirely. Just that details could be lost. snip

Details yes, they get lost, but the whole thing is forgotten. Or can you remember anywhere in GW2 where it says that titans once attacked the land and where repelled by a group of heroes? Or the whole War in Kryta? I’ve said it before, I don’t expect every other NPC to run around and tell me how awesome the PC from GW1 was, but I expect a little acknowledgement in places where its sensible.

IMO, the hero didn’t see themselves as a hero at that time(WoC). They might know for sure the causes they fought for mostly were good in the past, but Purity was the first one they got heavily involved in that showed the true colors early(ish) on.

I’m not arguing against that, in fact I agree with you. I just don’t see how we go from him doubting his current mission to thinking his whole life was a lie. That’s all I’m saying, that the statements are too ambiguous to be seen as any kind of proof that the PC wanted to be forgotten.

Translation errors are a thing, even IRL.

Yes, but that doesn’t mean anything here. It might as well be translated correctly. That’s exactly as much of a speculation as your statement. That’s like saying I lost my keys, they must have fallen into the sewer! I mean it could be, but without any evidence it just does not mean anything. Now if we go to the sewer and you find part of your key chain, then it means something.

The hero had friends, for sure. But would Beetletun notice if he died somewhere in the far shiverpeaks? Not really. He saved their town, they are thankful for that (and the ones who lived then would probably recognize him), but as time goes on, the stories would slow possibly. He saved them from destruction by undead that one time, then the White mantle happened. Also, as others have said, Kryta seems to have done an effort to hiding the White Mantle and that part of history from general, open knowledge.

Again, Devona is a fine example. She knew the hero yes… but in GW2, where are monuments or stories told of Ascalon’s Chosen? Devonas team went from Ascalon, through ALL the events of the three campaigns and EOTN. You can find a book or two wrote by Mhenlo, but hardly any other references by NPCS to those people. My point is, the hero is remembered, but the DETAILS have been lost. We don’t know their name for example, but we know what they have done.

You look at all these cases like they are isolated, but in fact they are not. That’s my point, the PC walked all over Tyria and met people, helped them, made friends. It doesn’t matter if the people of Beetletun don’t know where the hero died, it only matters that they remembered him. That problaby talked about him after he was gone, told the stories to their children, maybe someone even wrote them down. Not necessarily in Beetletun, maybe in the Durheim Archives or Kamadan.
Same goes for the allies of the PC, not everybody has to know every details of their life, but many people knew them, because they spent a lot of time traveling. The chance that atleast one person wrote in his diary “today I met Mhenlo, he is even cuter in person! <3” is pretty freaking high. That’s again my point. The PC and his allies were just too well known to be forgotten like this.
So in other words there should be a pretty high chance that you stumble onto something when you walk around in Tyria, somebody who knows his great-grandparents tale of the guy who saved Beetletun from the undead or the woman that wears that necklace that almost was lost to her family centuries ago, if not for that man that found and returned it. And even more likely than that, a scroll written by Symon the Scribe in the Durmand Priory that describes the defeat of the Lich.

Yet so far there is practically nothing. The plot of the first game might as well not have existed and it would make little difference in GW2. That’s why I was hoping we get that Abaddon fractal, when we had that Kiel vs. Evon vote. To get some connection. To give this world a part of it’s history back, that for no good reason is swept under the rug, to illogical levels. I mean why should I even get invested into GW2’s storyline if it half of the settings plot is forgotten? Does anything my PC in GW2 does even matter? Or are they going to pretend it didn’t happen once GW3 comes out?
I’m sorry if I’m ranting but this game series is dear to me, especially the first game. And I appreciate that they have giving more nods to the first game in season 2, but they are still far away from being done. And acknowledging that the PC from the first game existed and what he has done is the top priority IMO.

I believe the reason the GW1 PC is never mentioned is because he’s a human and GW2 is supposed to be about all the races and so on and so forth – they’re also trying to start new with these races so their mentioning of GW1 lore is pretty lacking.

I still believe GW2 should have been human only – just like GW1. It would have made for much easier and cohesive story telling, more interesting plot and it would have allowed for the game to be much more tied with GW1 without having to have all this forced divergence.

Of course – nobody can resist the concept of adding more races which means more hype and more appeal and more sales.

And 250 years later, would people still be casually, every day talking about those events? I understand your point and agree more references would be nice, but we are talking about a world 250 years later.

It’s established that the events around the white mantle/civil war are unknown or rumors to the common folk. But about that amulet…

Would you really think to overhear somebody going “Yes, this amulet was almost lost many years ago, but a hero returned it!” in casual conversation? I think we need to factor in time. It’s a bit unreasonable to assume people would be casually, in public, talking about events hundreds of years ago. Especially if you refer to minor events such as “Found this lost amulet for a family.”

Sure, maybe as a bit of dialogue if you interact directly with an npc and something like “That’s a unique necklace.” and then they go “Oh, it’s a family heriloom, but many years ago was recovered thanks to an adventurer.”

The events of GW1 were important to shaping the world, but should they be typical conversation among common folk? And remember, the only people really who would KNOW of this would be humans. so that limits you to Kryta and Ebonhawke only basically.

Yeah of course, as I said in previous comments, it has to be sensible. The example of random people passing family stories to you, is as mentioned just an idea. They could do it once or maybe twice as part of a quest, like for example you also return that ladies necklace and then she tells you something like this happened before (and I have to note here, I can’t think of any quest in GW1 where you return a necklace, it was just a random example). And such things could also happen in Norn territory, like I mentioned, being remembered is a big part of their culture and the PC spent quite some time in their lands.

The important part however would be documents you find in places like the Durmand Priory. Or come to think, there is Ogden, he knew the PC personally, yet all we get from him is a “you remind me of someone” at some point I think. Not sure if even does that, can’t find it on the wiki. Anyway he is the perfect character to tell us stories about the PC, as he met and tagged along with him. He shows no signs of having lost his memories in between and even if it’s 250 years later, he should be able to remember, since the PC was an outstanding character and dwarves were always long lived so they should be used to remembering stuff that was decades ago.

Well, in general terms, it’s like Americans talking about people or events from the French and Indian war. Scholar and people who are really into that era and reenactments can tell you a lot, but general public not as much. Hell, people who did amazing things in the Revolution, civil war, and WW2 even are forgotton to the general public. Some of them were heralded with things like what the guy from Beetletun says “You will be remembered for all time because of your actions today!” And now they are barely a footnote in history class.

Ogden, in comparison, knew the hero for a short time really. And I think we haven’t had much that he could tell us stories of and be relevant to the plot. Most of the time when we run into him, something else is kinda pressing. In the season 2, perhaps some more reference, but it’d be Ogden talking about what he had heard of the hero, not personal experience. The way it came across was more of Ogden hanging out at the Priory almost all of the time, so if you weren’t a member, you might not even know he exists.

I am agreeing that it’d be nice to see references, but I’d rather it be fitting in context then shoved in. IRL we have so much very, VERY important events and people who simply are utterly forgotten by the public.

I assume that canonically there were three great heroes, one in each campaign. One for Prophecies and War in Kryta, one for Factions and Winds of Change, and one for Nightfall.

That they are not mentioned ingame got one simple reason, and that is that GW2 is not aimed at GW1 players, but at new ones who most likely did not play GW1.

A mentioning of the greatest heroes humanity ever had, the players of GW1, would aim at pleasing said GW1 players, and the storywriters have shown all too often how much they care about those.

Sure, they throw them a bone occasionally. But that does not change that the game favours all other species over humanity and usually disregards GW1 lore, and i’ve long assumed that that is intentional.

I played all of GW1, I don’t feel like I’m disregarded or that the first game’s lore is ignored. It’s a world 250 years later, THINGS CHANGE.

Look at RL, 250 years ago. Can you name great heroes of that period off the top of your head casually? No? Can you even recall major battles off the top of your head?

The great heroes of GW1 are of a period that has gone. Unlike some settings, GW2 actually has a fairly realistic approach to events 250 years ago. Well educated citizens and scholars know about it. Your common civilian doesn’t know about it, or as much.

How many people from situations 250 years ago do we know by name or actively talk about today?

Okay since you guys keep bringin that argument, here is some stuff that happened and some people that lived 250 years ago (1765):

- The Seven Year’s War just ended recently (1763). Participants have been King George II of Britain, King Frederick II of Prussia, King Louis XV of France, Tsar Peter III of Russia and Empress Maria Theresia of the Holy Roman Empire
- As part of the Seven Year’s War, George Washington makes a name for himself as commander in the british colonies
- Both the American and French Revolution will start in the next few decades

Seem like pretty important events to me that shaped the world forever, for example establishing Britain and Prussia as great powers and setting up the age of revolutions. Now that’s not something you talk about in everyday conversation, but it’s something that is important to know, so important that I’m pretty sure it’s part of every history lesson in European and North American schools.

I think I’m repeating myself here, but I’m not saying that we should be spammed from all sites with stories about GW1’s plot. I just want the PC and the plot from the first game to be fully acknowledged. I came up with another idea how this could be done in sensible way. We know ED’s feed on magic, sometimes from magical items. So how about we uncover during HoT that Mordremoth’s minions got their hands on a powerful magical artifact called “Scepter of Orr”. During mission briefing we get told where the pact thinks it is and how powerful it is. Then optionally you can go talk to a Durmand historian. He would tell you about the Flameseeker Prophecy, Glint, the Lich, the titans and yes the PC from GW1. Why? Well it might help you on your mission if you know as much as possible about the artifact, but as I said, it’s optional. Just a nod to the veterans. Easy, not immersion breaking and totally skippable if you don’t care.

While true those events are major, and important… Some of it isn’t touched on in history lessons, other things are. Most importantly, we play as adults who have already passed school age (for humans). That angle is completely removed, unless for some reason we pass by a school lesson where they are talking about it… and the way it sounds, most commoners don’t even fully know about the White Mantle, much less the civil war…

About Scepter of Orr, sure, but I don’t see most of GW1 prophecies events as being relevant to the scepter. Besides maybe that it was housed in Kryta for a time, until the lich got a hold of it. After he died it disappeared.

I’m in full agreeance it’d be nice to see, but using RL comparisions, you simply don’t see people talking about those events. We have people who were declared by leaders like Lincoln that they would “Never be forgotten”, at yet, nobody even knows about them now.

Hell, my dad was asking me about people, places, and events that were MAJOR… most of them I went “Erm, no idea.” Like one person who moved a bunch of cannons across mountains in the winter during the revolution, to set them up around a town. The event which was major in convincing the British to stop. Nobody ever talks about him.

This is amplified as an issue when the hero from GW1 simply helped out and moved on, and never actually settled anywhere (that we know of).

Now, something they could do in HoT would be to MAYBE create unique weapons/armors (perhaps profession linked) which are themed directly toward GW1 styles, and named in ways that imply this gear was once used by those heroes of Tyria. Like I said to a friend a bit ago, I kinda wish the legendaries (at least some), or the new HoT legendaries were more linked toward GW1 people and events. Like the Flameseeker prophecies shield.

Kalavier.1097:

I’m in full agreeance it’d be nice to see, but using RL comparisions, you simply don’t see people talking about those events.

Oh you’d be very surprised. A few months ago I was waiting at the train station with a friend, we were on our way to the university. Suddenly an old fellow cut in the middle of our conversation, asking if we talked about football (we didn’t) and then just talked about the last few matches of the local club. So far nothing too out of the ordinary, but then in he train he sat opposite to us and started quizzing me about dutch history. (He was a dutchman, however I am german and it happened in Germany). He said that nobody ever passed his “test of knowlegde”. I was the first one to do so, because, well I’m a historian and his questions weren’t too hard if you have had courses on european history. (I’m more into antiquity myself)
I mean sure it was a completly random encounter, but still it does happen, because there are a good number of people out there who are interested in history and they like to share their interest. In fact if you ever strike up a conversation with me, it has a high chance of being about something historical. Though in the example mentioned before it wasn’t me who brought up the topic, nor did I do anything to indicate that I would be able to follow. No wonder no one ever passed that man’s test, if he just start quizzing random people about dutch history. :P