Guild Wars 2

I have been doing some thinking/digging on your Queen.

First of all, are you comfortable with having her in power? Have you really thought about the danger she might pose?

The queen is a mesmer of extraordinary power. That is drilled into you at every opportunity. Mesmerism is the power over others minds, and of illusion. In Destiny’s Edge, she’s able to make illusions powerful enough that the remainder of the armies of Charr and humans believed they had become branded creatures, in order to trick the actual Branded into leaving the battlefield. Also, while it’s not directly presented as her power, Logan is entranced with her the moment he sees her. This infatuation causes him to do things he would normally not do, and is the reason later he does something that is much more sinister.

Logan takes one glance at her on her balcony and then swears himself to be the queen’s personal champion, and she’s like “Okay yep, let me make a mind link in your brain so that you’ll know to come running if I’m ever in danger”. In doing so, she gains a strong and extremely loyal bodyguard, and effectively thwarts the plan to take down Kralk, which seems to work inversely in favor for her because if the dragon were to be killed, she would not have to fear, due to the fact that the minions are running off dragon power. She also could have used the mental link to communicate with Logan, however briefly, to realize that Edge of Destiny are on the brink of killing the source of their problems.
REMEMBER! She did not need Logan! She was powerful enough to turn the Charr and the Guard (Seraph, I think) into what looked like branded, causing the other branded to leave. As well as the fact that, if the dragon were to die then the branded would die as well (it’s sort of an unspoken fantasy/sci-fi rule so that you don’t have to mop up all the dragon mess afterward).

You also need to note what got EoD into the Crystal Desert in the first place.
Jennah herself had written to them (Logan) and said “turns out Glint is a dragon champion – yeah I know she’s done some really great stuff in the past, but it pains me to have to say you’re going to have to go in there and kill her, and kill her really quickly.” But as it turns out, Glint is not actually a bad dragon, the latest Living Story has proved that (as far as the tone has been set, Arena Net has basically presented her and her potential offspring as our great chance at killing Mordy.).
So this calls Jennah’s intention further into question. Did she just mistakenly call this assassination of Glint as a misplaced attempt at a good deed? I think not, just because it is too much of a deviation of tone. She has not directly acted like this before, why would she start now?

So what does this alone say about her? She is directly responsible for Logan deserting his crew and therefore the escape of Kralk. She was also nearly responsible of the elimination of Glint and the resulting unhindered rise of Kralk.

Also, while it is slightly unrelated, but certainly more of an immediate problem. Jennah is a politician who effectively has the power to control minds, as this is the base of the power of mesmers. Understand the implication of this. Can you trust her to not abuse this power? No. She is not some benevolent entity, as far as we know, she is human. Humans are all flawed, it doesn’t take a lot to see that.

Basically, keep an eye on your Queen, humans. I hope it at least concerns you that she essentially has the power over others minds. No one in a position of authority should have such power.

ps: sorry about the clickbait title, but I think this is an issue that demands attention
pss: sorry as well about the slightly weird tone, I main an Asura and I wanted to RP a little

Thalionsir.5976:

Basically, keep an eye on your Queen, humans. I hope it at least concerns you that she essentially has the power over others minds. No one in a position of authority should have such power.

So you’d rather have an authority who is controlled by another Mesmer?

The problem is: if Jennah were to step down we’d get Caudecus. That man doesn’t see the dragons as a problem and would most likely break the treaty with the charr. I trust Caudecus much much less than Jennah. However you’re right: we should always question our orders and not follow blindly.

The main concern here is her unrivaled power. The other stuff is kind of just theorycrafting.

Thalionsir.5976:

Logan takes one glance at her on her balcony and then swears himself to be the queen’s personal champion, and she’s like “Okay yep, let me make a mind link in your brain so that you’ll know to come running if I’m ever in danger”. In doing so, she gains a strong and extremely loyal bodyguard, and effectively thwarts the plan to take down Kralk, which seems to work inversely in favor for her because if the dragon were to be killed, she would not have to fear, due to the fact that the minions are running off dragon power. She also could have used the mental link to communicate with Logan, however briefly, to realize that Edge of Destiny are on the brink of killing the source of their problems.

She’s the queen, its beneficial for her and humanity if she has a strong bodyguard. Considering how power hungry the Krytan Ministry is, if she died, then the nation would probably not be in a good place. I don’t know how mesmer magic works, but maybe she could only send the message, and not have a conversation with Logan about his situation. You’re forgetting that Jennah WANTS the dragons dead as they are a threat to her people – she knew about Glint helping humans in the past, but decided that, if Glint was actually helping her old master, it would be better for all if she died. Heck, Jennah even says in her letter to Logan that she’d trust Glint over Faolain’s info, because of what Glint had done for humanity. She also probably would not have known about what Glint did in the last dragonrise, as none of the races that Glint protected were present in Jennah’s time (well the Jotun were and still are, but they’ve pretty much destroyed their history and civilisation). In regards to Glint being a former champion of Kralkatorrik, that isn’t very common knowledge – Glint was extremely secretive of her association with the Elder Dragon.

Thalionsir.5976:

REMEMBER! She did not need Logan! She was powerful enough to turn the Charr and the Guard (Seraph, I think) into what looked like branded, causing the other branded to leave. As well as the fact that, if the dragon were to die then the branded would die as well (it’s sort of an unspoken fantasy/sci-fi rule so that you don’t have to mop up all the dragon mess afterward).

But dragon minions don’t die when their Elder Dragon dies. If you look at Arah explorable, which happens AFTER Zhaitan’s death, you’ll see the Risen are still functioning.
Also we don’t know the mechanics of the spell she cast – she may have needed a long time to prepare it, time which Logan probably brought by rallying the imprisoned Charr in Ebonhawke to fight for them. If she didn’t have that time the city might have been overrun by the Branded.

Thalionsir.5976:

You also need to note what got EoD into the Crystal Desert in the first place.
Jennah herself had written to them (Logan) and said “turns out Glint is a dragon champion – yeah I know she’s done some really great stuff in the past, but it pains me to have to say you’re going to have to go in there and kill her, and kill her really quickly.” But as it turns out, Glint is not actually a bad dragon, the latest Living Story has proved that (as far as the tone has been set, Arena Net has basically presented her and her potential offspring as our great chance at killing Mordy.).
So this calls Jennah’s intention further into question. Did she just mistakenly call this assassination of Glint as a misplaced attempt at a good deed? I think not, just because it is too much of a deviation of tone. She has not directly acted like this before, why would she start now?

Again, I think I addressed this in my first paragraph. Basically Destiny’s Edge went off to kill Glint and Jennah just gave Logan the royal stamp of approval, even though neither of them were particularly enthusiastic about it, just in case Glint was actually helping Kralkatorrik. Also what we’re focusing on more now is not just killing the Elder Dragons, but also what to do after they’re dead and their magic rushes back into the world. Glint was basically going to be a sponge for the magic of one Elder Dragon, absorb that magic and basically replace that Elder Dragon (except as a good one). Doing so would help prevent magic levels from rising to dangerous levels and be dealing with the side effects of killing an Elder Dragon.

Thalionsir.5976:

So what does this alone say about her? She is directly responsible for Logan deserting his crew and therefore the escape of Kralk. She was also nearly responsible of the elimination of Glint and the resulting unhindered rise of Kralk.

Sure she was responsible for Logan leaving, but when your life is in danger you’re gonna call upon your strongest assets to protect yourself. Also, if I recall correctly, Glint died before Snaff even entered Kralkatorrik’s mind, so she was dead either way.

Thalionsir.5976:

Also, while it is slightly unrelated, but certainly more of an immediate problem. Jennah is a politician who effectively has the power to control minds, as this is the base of the power of mesmers. Understand the implication of this. Can you trust her to not abuse this power? No. She is not some benevolent entity, as far as we know, she is human. Humans are all flawed, it doesn’t take a lot to see that.

Of course I’d still trust her. She’s done a lot for the peace treaty with the Charr, and if she died at Ebonhawke, the two species would most likely be at war with each other in the present. Jennah is looking out for her subjects, and is pretty darn benevolent to them. Its probably hard to manipulate other leaders with her mesmerism, as she’d have to continuously keep them under control and this might cause deviations from their normal patterns of behaviour which would alert their subjects and create hostility between her and the other group, and ultimately be bad for Jennah’s side as it would reduce trade, aid and public opinion. If she was using mesmerism to control her opponents, Caudecus wouldn’t really have become as much of a problem to the strength of the monarchy as he is now.

And of course humans are flawed, but none of the other races are paragons of perfection, are they? On the whole, Charr are still trigger happy and keen to fight, Norn aren’t really great at banding together (they focus on the individual), Asura are manipulative and self centered and Sylvari are basically overly curious plants (the Nightmare court are rebellious teens with mommy issues). Each race should have their positives and negatives. I mean, the Sylvari are probably the closest to ‘perfect’, and look how much that kittenes many players off.

Sorry if my formatting is crap, I don’t usually comment. Also wrote this in between studying, so I hope its not too disjointed. Correct me if I’m wrong anywhere

These are decent counterarguments, props man! But the fact remains that you have the Queen, and she has a lot of power, with a little manipulation, she could have nearly absolute power. She and her right hand lady are two of the most powerful mesmers in the world, I feel like that is something that should not be in politics, especially as the office of Queen, there is just too much going for her. A leader should never have outright control over others minds. Escalate that and an absolute leader should never have absolute power over others. Control of the mind would allow this and she is in the perfect position to use it.

I mean, she can actually influence the minds of crowds at a time, this should at least raise a little concern, even if she has a decent track record.

Some counter-counters:

You said:
“But dragon minions don’t die when their Elder Dragon dies. If you look at Arah explorable, which happens AFTER Zhaitan’s death, you’ll see the Risen are still functioning.
Also we don’t know the mechanics of the spell she cast – she may have needed a long time to prepare it, time which Logan probably brought by rallying the imprisoned Charr in Ebonhawke to fight for them. If she didn’t have that time the city might have been overrun by the Branded.”

Point taken, there are a lot of factors. But why wasn’t she using her elite guard to combat the Branded? Why didn’t she use her handmaid (who is also a powerful mesmer)? Either of these options would have bought her the same amount of time summoning Logan would have, and she would not be sacrificing the once in a lifetime chance they had to take down the dragon.

Also this:

“Considering how power hungry the Krytan Ministry is, if she died, then the nation would probably not be in a good place. I don’t know how mesmer magic works, but maybe she could only send the message, and not have a conversation with Logan about his situation. "

If the Queen needs to worry about the power hungry nature of the court she resides in, then why doesn’t she have an Heir? If she were to die without an Heir it is likely the remaining royalty will tear the country apart with the resulting power struggle. She cannot be ignorant of this, she is the Queen after all. So why no Heir? Selfishness? A more sinister agenda? Just another thing to consider.

If she needs a bodyguard, and has to go to a wandering vagrant to get one, well, she needs to prepare better.

Thanks for discussing!

Thalionsir.5976:

Point taken, there are a lot of factors. But why wasn’t she using her elite guard to combat the Branded? Why didn’t she use her handmaid (who is also a powerful mesmer)? Either of these options would have bought her the same amount of time summoning Logan would have, and she would not be sacrificing the once in a lifetime chance they had to take down the dragon.

Counterpoint: the only reason Logan’s presence bought time is because he released the charr prisoners. That seemed not to have occurred to anyone else, and even if it had, without the pendant Logan carried they never would have trusted him. Even so, they were pushed just about to the breaking point before Jennah got her cast off. While I certainly agree Anise is Logan’s equal in most situations, on a battlefield I don’t think her and two other Shining Blade could buy a fraction of as much time as (checks book) apparently “hundreds” of charr.

Thalionsir.5976:

If she needs a bodyguard, and has to go to a wandering vagrant to get one, well, she needs to prepare better.

To me, that seems like evidence that her feelings for Logan are actually genuine.

But, since this was phrased as a fun rp warning… yes, my human likes Jennah where she is. Human society is an unfair trap unless you happen to have the right parents, and the Seraph tend to oppress first and extend sympathies later, and sure, there is undeniably something very shady about the Shining Blade. Nobody’s that perfect. But Jennah? She’s kind, but more than that, she makes a point of keeping her hands clean, of believing in honor and dignity as part of being human, of holding herself to a standard. Caudecus is a slimeball, and his wealthy friends- sorry, Ministry- are fops, fools, or cronies. I’d rather have a powerful leader with principles than a helpless one who’d do anything. Besides, we have faith in her. I know your kind don’t get that, and maybe that’s why you’re stuck with the leaders you’ve got.

That’s not the only place the leadership of Divinity’s Reach is suspect. The conspiracy in Party Politics was in no way resolved. Anise’s defense during Party Politics is paper thin. Witnesses claim to have seen her, Jennah, and Scarlet conspiring. The whole point of the story was to disprove this, but you “resolve” this with only a claim of evidence and it involves a major conflict of interest. When you confront Anise about it, she instantly dismisses it.

“ Kasmeer Meade: Countess, Minister Estelle is claiming that you were there, at the secret meeting. She’s implicating you.
Countess Anise: Nonsense. I was at no such meeting. I did, however, receive a mysterious message signed only with the initial E.
Countess Anise: The note said that Estelle was in a bandit gambling parlor when she was supposedly spying on our queen.
Countess Anise: Reminding her of this will be enough to make her drop her lie faster than Faren’s dignity.” – Party Politics

However, there is no more to prove that she’s telling the truth over anyone else. As is pointed out by the player, you don’t actually have that note, instead, Kasmeer aims for a bluff. This bluff “resolves” the issue, but if you pay attention, it actually does no such thing.

“ Kasmeer Meade: So much for subtlety. You were busy gambling with some ruffians.
Minister Estelle: Keep your voice down! That’s a baseless accusation!
Countess Anise: Is that so, Minister Estelle? Perhaps you and I should speak privately and sort this little mess out. Please follow my guards. I’ll be with you shortly.” – Party Politics

Anise never actually gives you the chance to bluff. Estelle understandably denies the association for the sake of reputation, but before anyone gets to mention evidence of it to gauge her reaction, Anise conveniently shows up to arrest her and take her away. In other words, a suspect who accused a witness of being another suspect, arrests the witness on nothing but her own word of evidence she never provides. That’s either a horrible misunderstanding of justice, or Anise has something to hide.

Keep in mind, you had to do this because Jennah wasn’t going to be allowed at the summit due to the suspicion, and a concern that it would lead to the gathering being attacked. Well guess what, you clear Jennah and the World Summit is attacked. That doesn’t prove it was her, but Trahearne still suspects an inside job, and we have yet to discover who that was.

Let’s get some more Anise quotes in here:

“ Countess Anise: Noble intentions don’t interest me. What I need is a sharp instrument. A knife that can be employed before anyone realizes it’s struck.” – The World Summit

“ Countess Anise: I want you to learn what you can about the Pact’s plans. Follow them to their staging area.
Countess Anise: I need someone there I know can get the job done, and I believe you may be that someone.” – The World Summit

Those don’t sound like the words of someone secretly watching the Pact’s back. That sounds like someone ready to stab them in the back.

You might be wondering why I keep quoting Countess Anise. Well, it’s because she certainly seems to be the one actually pulling the strings in Divinity’s Reach, to the point where I question if the Jennah we’ve interacted with is real at all.

“ Countess Anise: Now that this messy affair is out of the way, I feel fairly certain that the Queen will attend your summit. “ – Party Politics

“ Kasmeer Meade: Oh, I don’t think the queen would be interested in—
Countess Anise: Nonsense. Now go. Say pretty things to my guests, and enjoy yourselves for the rest of the evening.” – Party Politics

“ Countess Anise: You must visit more often. The party wouldn’t have been nearly as much fun without you. The queen sends her gratitude as well. She can now attend your summit. I’ll be here as well, though…incognito. “ – Party Politics

“ Countess Anise: Well, let’s just say I’m confident we can convince the queen your value overrides your father’s misfortune.” – Party Politics

“ Kasmeer Meade: She relayed our invitation to the queen and, surprisingly, replied quickly. Queen Jennah will attend the summit!” – The Waypoint Conundrum

Countess Anise seems pretty confident in her ability to speak for the queen. Yes, they’re close, but Kasmeer (who surely knows that) still points out that the message was relayed surprisingly quickly.

Anise is seen without Jennah, but Jennah is never seen without Anise. Even in Caudecus’ Manor, which is a common counterpoint, Jennah explains that she’s distracted because her handmaiden is ill and resting in the manor, which Jennah is never seen too far from. If she isn’t talking about Anise, it would seem quite strange that the hyper-competent bodyguard who even foresaw Scarlet’s attack wasn’t at Jennah’s side while attending a party hosted at the home of a known rival, formally if nothing else.

You may be wondering how Anise would be creating illusions of someone else. Well, at the World Summit, Anise reveals that she can disguise herself as a completely different race, and Canach wonders at the possibility if even her normal appearance is an illusion. Also consider that it would be pretty coincidental for both Anise and Jennah to have powers well beyond the average Mesmer, unless it was actually just one legendary Mesmer concocting two identities to mask themselves.

Keep in mind, I’m not saying that there was never a Jennah, or that there definitely isn’t anymore (Anise could just be a Padme situation), but something fishy is definitely going on with the leadership of Divinity’s Reach. It’s all circumstantial, but even circumstantial evidence carries weight when there’s enough of it and it all points in the same direction.

To be honest, I can’t say I believe it’s all malicious. Jennah could do a lot of damage by deciding that the peace treaty was a bad idea after all, for instance, without raising suspicion. However, it could easily be a case of someone being dodgy and hiding evidence of their innocence to one crime, because it’s proof of guilt for something else.

For instance, I always thought Anise and Jennah’s railroading of Logan after Scarlet’s attack was a bit inappropriate considering the circumstances and their relations (and that was one of my earliest story experiences). It makes a lot more sense, however, if you consider it from another perspective. What if Anise didn’t expect an attack, and Scarlet did kill the “real” Jennah, and that’s why they didn’t let the queen’s personal champion in on any of it? Then, to quickly cover up the truth of the queen, Anise quickly summons another Jennah and pretends it was her plan the whole time, having Jennah back her up to quickly deflect any questions.

Because, if we take Anise’s word at face value, then Jennah was okay that, if an attack never came, an illusion would do her entire Closing Ceremony. And if that was true, why have the real her there at all and at risk? In that case, it would make a lot more sense to have Anise with the fake Jennah at the ceremony, to keep up appearances and not arouse suspicion, while the real Jennah is in a secret location guarded by Logan (who, if anyone asks, if off on Seraph business).