Guild Wars 2

Introduction
Five races, six serpents, and ancient history. Decimus was right, “Never trust the past. There has been too much forgotten, too many things hidden beneath the sand of ages. Even your own memory can lie to you.” Most mortals live for little more than a century and in that time, if they are able, some commit their memories to parchment with quill and ink; others compose songs for heroes to sing in gilded halls. But the hand that writes history also steals loaves of bread and the mouth that sings majestically curses it’s neighbors by firelight. Parchment burns, music fades…

What We Think That We Know
What really happened during the last Elder Dragon rise? Can we learn anything from what we already know about it, or at least think that we know? Tyria’s historians believe that the dragons last awoke around ten thousand years ago; they also believe that five races – the dwarves, jotun, seers, murssat, and forgotten – formed an alliance to fight them. Apparently, these five emerged from the conflict. Other races weren’t quite so fortunate. The giganticus lupicus – various gigantic races thought to live in Tyria at that time – didn’t make it. Scholars speculate that they were rendered functionally extinct by Elder Dragon predation.

Formidable Opponents
The giganticus lupicus weren’t exactly pushovers. Their makeshift graveyard, a desert of crystal sands, presents skeletons sizable enough to make more than enough trouble for Elder Dragons. Nor were the spell-casters of the five races to be trifled with. The seers forged the bloodstone in an attempt to store large amounts of magic; the forgotten cleansed a powerful dragon minion, Glint; and the mursaat successfully hid themselves. Clearly, the Elder Dragons had one hell of a fight on their hands. It’s hard to imagine that they didn’t take casualties.

A Gritty War
It’s even harder to imagine that the five races were not affected by the Elder Dragons in the same way that contemporary Tyrians are: namely, by being corrupted. The dragons must have turned members of each race into minions. The norn personal storyline, dealing with an attempt by Jormag to corrupt a jotun chieftain, suggests that at least one race believed to have survived the last rising is susceptible to Elder Dragonic corruption; and if the jotun are, there is no real reason to believe that the other races weren’t. Sure, the forgotten cleansed Glint and maybe that means that they were immune to corruption. But then again, the Pact cleansed a risen chicken and merely performing the ritual most certainly does not confer immunity to those doing so.
I prefer to think that there were casualties on both sides. The Elder Dragons turned members of the five races into minions and they also suffered setbacks of their own.

Zaithan Probably Isn’t The First
By setbacks, I mean the death of at least one Elder Dragon. Even if we ignore the magical prowess of the five races, the giganticus lupicus must have been more than a match for the serpents. But if you need further convincing, imagine the combination of the giganticus lupicus and the five races fighting the dragons. In my opinion, therefore, at least one Elder Dragon did die during the last rise.

The Straw That Broke The Camel’s Back
If war was the original intention of the five races, it’s frightening to learn that those acts for which they are remembered had more than a hint of desperation to them. Seriously? Using a former minion to hide from the Elder Dragons? Storing magic in a bloodstone? Hiding from the Elder Dragons by “phase shifting”? Does anything about these plans strike you as the actions of an alliance on the cusp of victory? They seem more like last stands to me.
I propose that the war against the Elder Dragons was initially fairly evenly matched. The five races first used force to destroy their enemy, but as the war dragged on, the cost of the sacrifices made left the alliance fatally weakened. The offensive against the dragons ground to an inevitable halt. New methods of dealing with them were devised. The plan that most likely was adopted was to ride the rise out. Rather than continuing to fight the dragons head on, the races would hide. This seems consistent with the courses of action adopted by each race. The forgotten and the mursaat, for example, both appear to have been trying to hide, although each did so in a different way; so too the seers were no doubt thinking about what would happen after the races emerged from hiding when they created the bloodstone.
So the races learned that brute force was not going to win them their war against the Elder Dragons.

The State Of Tyria Immediately Before The Elder Dragons Awoke
At some stage in the past the mursaat and the seers warred against each other. The blood they spilt paints a far dirtier picture of the nature of the relationships between the five races than we usually care to look at. Prior to the rise of the dragons, the jotun, dwarves, seers, mursaat, and forgotten may well have periodically warred against each other. Just look at the state of the nature of the relationships between the charr and the humans prior to the current Elder Dragon rise: they were bitter enemies. Now, they may not yet be the best of friends, but they have united to face a common threat. In fact, when we consider the war between the mursaat and the seers, a war widely believed to have taken place sometime after the last dragon rise, it is easier for us to understand why the mursaat were willing to cleave ties with the other races of the alliance. Prior to the rise of the Elder Dragons, the mursaat probably did not enjoy a harmonious existence with their would-be allies, such that the tensions introduced by the failure of the alliance to crush the serpents by force led the mursaat leadership to conclude that any further efforts by the five races would only end in more defeat; so they abandoned their confederates.

A Brief Recapitulation Of The Points That We Have Covered
To summarize thus far, I propose the following:
1. At least one Elder Dragon died during their last rise.
2. The five races initially attempted to fight the Elder Dragons in a similar manner to the way in which the Pact currently are. However, after a period of time it became obvious to them all that force would not prevail. Instead, the races decided to ride the rise out in hiding.
3. The relationships between the five races were never truly harmonious. When it became evident that force would not prevail, preexisting tensions between the races pushed the alliance to breaking point, leading to the departure of the mursaat.

Speculation On The Reason For The Current Rising
What follows henceforth is as speculative as what I have already presented. I believe that the planting of the seed of the Pale Tree caused the Elder Dragons to awaken. At this time, we have no definitive date as to when the seed was planted, although “The Movement Of The World” does suggest a date around the year 1075AE. We believe that Ronan’s village was assaulted by the mursaat, and as per a thread by leading members of our lore community (I am linking this here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/mursaat-1 (I apologize, I do not know how to condense these links yet I’m working on that)) it is posited that the last time the mursaat were sighted was 1078AE. Now, Ronan’s patrol may have taken him away from his village for days, weeks, months – even years. However, it seems reasonable to conclude that his patrol would not have taken him more than five years to complete. Thus, the mursaat may well have attacked the village prior to 1080AE. This means that the seed was probably planted between 1075AE and 1080AE. We believe that Primordus stirred in 1078AE (as per the time line presented in Edge Of Destiny). I suggest that Primordus stirred shortly after the seed was planted and in response to it. I believe that the tree is consuming large amounts of Tyria’s magic and that the dragons are trying to prevent this. Sylvari are doing something similar to what the mursaat did during the last Elder Dragon rise – they are removing sizeable portions of magic from Tyria. (Interestingly enough, Abaddon’s fall was somehow linked to the mursaat. I wonder if the mursaat created an imbalance in the magical system that led to the “fall” of Abaddon. Anyway, one can only conject.)

Conclusion
I wanted to present these theories because I’ve been thinking about them for a long time now and I found myself fidgeting whilst they remained figments of my mind. I hope that you’ve enjoyed reading them and I wish you all the best.

The stirring of Primordus in 1078 AE was supposedly due to the actions of the Great Destroyer. Its goal throughout the EotN campaign was (among other things) to awaken Primordus completely, but we killed it before the Great Destroyer could finish its task.

Why do you assume that a dragon had to have died during the last cycle? Is there evidence for this somewhere? The Pact managed to win against Zhaitan primarily because modern Tyrians use technology that the Elder Dragons cannot corrupt or consume. The alliance during the previous rise, however, are almost unanimously magic users. Only the dwarves seem to prefer science and technology over explicitly magical constructs, and that might only be a recent cultural phenomenon from some time in the past few thousand years.

The previous races may very well have found the Elder Dragons to be unkillable when fighting with their magical weapons, no matter how potent their weapons and spells may have seemed at the time. I can easily see the mursaat ultimately screwing over an alliance that can’t even manage to kill a single Elder Dragon.

Stephen.6312:

A Brief Recapitulation Of The Points That We Have Covered
To summarize thus far, I propose the following:
1. At least one Elder Dragon died during their last rise.

We learned that the elder dragons are natural forces. Somebody brought up that they are probably not alive during their sleep or there is another reason the races decided to deliver that it’s better to hide away from the dragon instead of fighting them. Imagine the Mursaat, which have survived the dragons well, could have set up an army and slaughtered them in their sleep.
At least one of the dragons never was alive. It’s Zhaitan which probably even was created as an undead. I think the term living elder dragon might have to get defined more precise to talk about a dead dragon. On a closer observation it is possible that the undead orrian dragon which never was alive got taken out of the game in form of a “dead” undead elder dragon (revived by risen).
But after all we do not have proof to say for sure, we don’t even have evidence to say that one of them died.

Stephen.6312:

2. The five races initially attempted to fight the Elder Dragons in a similar manner to the way in which the Pact currently are. However, after a period of time it became obvious to them all that force would not prevail. Instead, the races decided to ride the rise out in hiding.

It’s implied that there were six races fighting six dragons. And there are a lot powerful artifacts, even in form of huge buildings which seem to be magictech too (I perceive every technology in guildwars as forms of magitech). The jotun have a lot magical places, but even they do not know where they are and how they are used. (just trying to say that the power of the old races might be equal to ours, maybe even higher)

The zephyrites told on their ships that it’s better to hide away if the dragons stir and they have hold the heir of Glint (whatever that really means). The Sons of Svanir also tell that you shouldn’t step in the way of the dragon (he isn’t interested in you, but he gives no kitten about collateral damage). There might be a reason that makes sense to hide away instead of engaging.

Stephen.6312:

What really happened during the last Elder Dragon rise? Can we learn anything from what we already know about it, or at least think that we know? Tyria’s historians believe that the dragons last awoke around ten thousand years ago; they also believe that five races – the dwarves, jotun, seers, murssat, and forgotten – formed an alliance to fight them. Apparently, these five emerged from the conflict. Other races weren’t quite so fortunate. The giganticus lupicus – various gigantic races thought to live in Tyria at that time – didn’t make it. Scholars speculate that they were rendered functionally extinct by Elder Dragon predation.

Technically, it’s never said that the five surviving sapient races (more on that in a bit) formed an alliance. It is said that the mursaat betrayed the seers, but that’s as much of an alliance we have indication of.

A bit nitpicky: it’s also not “five races vs. six dragons” – rather, it’s “five sentient races that survived”. We know of at least one (potentially group of) race(s), the giganticus lupicus, that lived and fought and died during that time. There’s indications to believe there were more races that survived, but no concrete evidence there.

The giganticus lupicus weren’t exactly pushovers. Their makeshift graveyard, a desert of crystal sands, presents skeletons sizable enough to make more than enough trouble for Elder Dragons. Nor were the spell-casters of the five races to be trifled with. The seers forged the bloodstone in an attempt to store large amounts of magic; the forgotten cleansed a powerful dragon minion, Glint; and the mursaat successfully hid themselves. Clearly, the Elder Dragons had one hell of a fight on their hands. It’s hard to imagine that they didn’t take casualties.

Food for thought:

Many giganticus lupicus bones in the Crystal Desert/Desolation are of draconic appearance. What if those are bones of dragon champions (icebrood, branded, and risen all retain their bone structures by appearance, if they be corrupted former beings).

It’s also possible that those non-cyborg-canine g-lupes were wildlife – without civilization and thus, organized society or military. Not much of a threat to the Elder Dragons.

By setbacks, I mean the death of at least one Elder Dragon. Even if we ignore the magical prowess of the five races, the giganticus lupicus must have been more than a match for the serpents. But if you need further convincing, imagine the combination of the giganticus lupicus and the five races fighting the dragons. In my opinion, therefore, at least one Elder Dragon did die during the last rise.

There’s really nothing to indicate any sort of alliance amongst the races – let alone the G-Lupe and the other races. In fact, that feels like the entire underlying presence of the storyline – past civilizations failed due to betrayals and non-cooperative efforts. We know nothing of the non-canine G-Lupe, other than their gargantuan size, thus saying that they had to have been a match for the Elder Dragons is, by far, fallacious.

And of the one kind of G-Lupe we know of, while powerful this thing would pale to a non-starved Elder Dragon.

Furthermore, I think that if there was an Elder Dragon that died, there’d be mention of more than just a “sextant of swallowers” that are said to have “consumed the world several times over”. If there were ever more than six, then the jotun creation myths would contain more than just six.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Scholar_Caterin

If one of them died, it would likely be Zhaitan – who at the time wouldn’t have been an undead dragon himself, if such were so. But I’m doubtful.

The Straw That Broke The Camel’s Back
-snip section-

A peculiar hypothesis, but you don’t seem to be able to base it off of anything, other than the final acts of the races, which is very little to go by.

We see no indication of an even fighting field in the least, nor would I argue such to be the case, in all honesty.

The State Of Tyria Immediately Before The Elder Dragons Awoke
-snip-

The war between mursaat and seer actually seems to be done during the Elder Dragon rise itself, as we were told that the war occurred around the same time as the Tome of Rubicon’s writing – which contains information about the previous Dragonrise (my own term for it based off of the chapter in Edge of Destiny when Kralkatorrik wakens). We are also told in-game that the mursaat fled the world during said previous Dragonrise, and only returned recently “as the Unseen Ones.” This means that there would be no time between the Elder Dragons falling asleep and Prophecies for the war to be waged and be ancient as the seer in Prophecies proclaimed. Ergo, the war had to be that act of betrayal by the mursaat mentioned.

The reasons for this could have been many:

• The mursaat had the most effective means of fighting the Elder Dragons – they’re invincible, effectively, while they’re “phased out” (invisible to the non-Ascended eye, which includes modern risen as we experience in Arah mursaat path).
• The seers were planning on sealing all magic away – that would include the mursaat’s own magic, thus making them vulnerable.
• The mursaat have a long standing history of being selfish kittens and Operative Brie hints that the mursaat fled with the intention of returning to rule the world (" We’ve only just begun. With this knowledge, we can become like the mursaat themselves! We will leave this world to the Dragons, and then return and rule once they sleep again.").

Seeing the world as lost and fleeing, not wanting to use their best defense/offense and betraying-then-fleeing, fleeing with the intention of ruling when the Elder Dragons fell sated (but misjudging how much time it’d take). Any of these are possibilities beyond the also possible “they never got along with the other races”.

I believe that the planting of the seed of the Pale Tree caused the Elder Dragons to awaken.

I cannot see this as likely. Both Primordus and Jormag was already trying to awaken – via their champions (The Great Destroyer and Drakkar respectively) – by the time that the Pale Tree were a mere seedling, and given story context this could have been happening much longer, unknown to us players or those our PCs interacted with, given that they (the champions) began working in lands none interacted with (often/at the time).

And the Pale Tree as a seedling had little influence by all indication, let alone something powerful enough to trigger the Elder Dragons’ awakening. This is doubly so when we’ve been explicitly stated on multiple occasions that the Elder Dragons rise when the ambient magic in the world reaches a certain point. They wake up to feed – it seems to be like when you’re sleeping, and you start smelling bacon. You wake up, in a daze, sooner than you would otherwise, feeling hungry because you smelled delicious food.

At this time, we have no definitive date as to when the seed was planted, although “The Movement Of The World” does suggest a date around the year 1075AE. We believe that Ronan’s village was assaulted by the mursaat, and as per a thread by leading members of our lore community (-snipped-) it is posited that the last time the mursaat were sighted was 1078AE. Now, Ronan’s patrol may have taken him away from his village for days, weeks, months – even years. However, it seems reasonable to conclude that his patrol would not have taken him more than five years to complete. Thus, the mursaat may well have attacked the village prior to 1080AE. This means that the seed was probably planted between 1075AE and 1080AE.

It would have to be between 1067 – the earliest mention of the White Mantle (they predate the Shining Blade) – and 1078, when we see the Pale Tree as a well-grown sapling. Given the size, 1075 works well, however the mursaat were mostly wiped out in 1072, thus that year (1072) would make a far better candidate. There was only 8 mursaat after 1072 (known at least), and only one (known) after 1079.

I suggest that Primordus stirred shortly after the seed was planted and in response to it. I believe that the tree is consuming large amounts of Tyria’s magic and that the dragons are trying to prevent this. Sylvari are doing something similar to what the mursaat did during the last Elder Dragon rise – they are removing sizeable portions of magic from Tyria. (Interestingly enough, Abaddon’s fall was somehow linked to the mursaat. I wonder if the mursaat created an imbalance in the magical system that led to the “fall” of Abaddon. Anyway, one can only conject.)

So the Elder Dragons are trying to prevent the Pale Tree from doing exactly what they themselves do? That makes little sense to me. Furthermore, if this was so, then why wouldn’t Zhaitan attack the Pale Tree, which was defenseless for roughly 80 years after Zhaitan’s waking? Doesn’t add up.

Furthermore, nothing said that the mursaat removed portions of magic – I presume you mean seers. Abaddon’s fall is not linked – directly – to either mursaat or seers; the connection is via the Bloodstone, as Abaddon gifted too much magic to the world (releasing it from the Bloodstone) and the other gods redacted some of his gift – disagreements and wars ensued, followed by Abaddon’s fall.

Conclusion

I’ll add my own hypothesis of the timeline of the previous Dragonrise later.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

At least one of the dragons never was alive. It’s Zhaitan which probably even was created as an undead. I think the term living elder dragon might have to get defined more precise to talk about a dead dragon. On a closer observation it is possible that the undead orrian dragon which never was alive got taken out of the game in form of a “dead” undead elder dragon (revived by risen).
But after all we do not have proof to say for sure, we don’t even have evidence to say that one of them died.

Nothing states that Zhaitan is actually undead. He’s called the Elder Undead Dragon because his corruption takes the form of undeath. Just as Jormag is called the Elder Ice Dragon because his corruption takes the form of ice. There’s no reason to believe that Jormag is ice, or the Primordus is fire, or Kralkatorrik is crystal (especially given that they have scales), or Mordremoth to be a plant (despite Taimi’s theory that the large vines are Mordremoth itself, what we saw in the cinematic was scales and bones, not plant).

Aside from his rotten appearance – which could be just an effect of hte magic it uses – there’s no reason to believe Zhaitan himself is undead, and if he was, there’s even less reason to believe he was always undead (which would be a paradox anyways, as “undead” means that it was once dead but isn’t any longer – and to be once dead, one has to have once been living).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Technically, it’s never said that the five surviving sapient races (more on that in a bit) formed an alliance.

There is a bit at the end of the mursaat path- “the races gathered together to fight the dragons, each contributing something”- that certainly sounds like an alliance, and in context would almost have to be the five races explicitly addressed as being around back then.

Hmm, true, forgot about that line. Though the subsequent line (“Hmm. Yet the mursaat took their knowledge and fled into a half-world, out of phase with our own. They would have let the rest of the world die just to save themselves.”) indicates that the mursaat’s involvement in the alliance was short-lived. Sounds like they only joined in order to gain what the other races offered and then fled the world.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Nothing states that Zhaitan is actually undead. He’s called the Elder Undead Dragon because his corruption takes the form of undeath.

Necromancer minions are undead which never have been alive and cannot get corrupted by risen (Trahearne during personal story). Every part of Zhaitan which we encounter has something tied to it. In the case of the eye and the mouth we can see a risen attached to the bodies and in the case of a floating eye it doesn’t make sense to do so. We shot the dragon down with the same color pattern delivered everywhere (red, blue and green laser). The blue laser tears the dragon down, but something from it’s back is ripped off with that laser.

He is surely called the undead dragon, but created undead and risen are different. So I see the possibility open that he is created as undead. Further are the elder dragons so different from common dragons that it’s also possible that the elder dragon are contructs or artifical in another way. Set up during the creation of the world as a natural force to balance magic.

Necromancer minions are undead in the fact that they’re scrambling constructs of flesh and bone. What they come from were once living, but the minions themselves never were, because they’re constructs.

And he is called the undead dragon because of his minions. Don’t believe me? Read this.

I’ll quote:
→Death: Zhaitan (1219 AD)
Zhaitan’s awakening caused the once-lost island nation of Orr to rise from the sea, flooding many coastal lands in the process.
→ Keep reading.
More accurately a master of the undeath, Zhaitan has the ability to convert corpses into minions with his very breath.

He’s called the Elder Death Dragon, Elder Undeath Dragon, etc. because he is a master of the undeath. Just as Jormag is of ice, and Primordus of fire, and Kralkatorrik is of crystal.

Been a while since I’ve posted here, tho felt like adding something maybe interesting to the Zhaitan thing.

Former Sylvari PS lvl 10, when you are summoned to the Pale Tree and meet the luminary of your cycle for the first time.
If you talk to the Firstborn and ask about Zhaitan, the luminary definitely calls him /an/ undead Elder Dragon.

Not the elder dragon of the undead like mostly everywhere else, but specifically an undead elder dragon. It stood out for me when I redid the PS on an alt thus I still remember it clearly.

This book has no author, no writing year and lists just 4 dragons. It might be well-thumbed, but lists obviously just observations of the last ~200 years. It doesn’t really help to get informations about the last rise and the nature of the dragons.

ElysianEternity.6215:

Former Sylvari PS lvl 10, when you are summoned to the Pale Tree and meet the luminary of your cycle for the first time.
If you talk to the Firstborn and ask about Zhaitan, the luminary definitely calls him /an/ undead Elder Dragon.

Not the elder dragon of the undead like mostly everywhere else, but specifically an undead elder dragon. It stood out for me when I redid the PS on an alt thus I still remember it clearly.

Depends on the capitalization of ‘undead’, can’t find anything on the wiki. Either I’m looking in the wrong place or it hasn’t been captured.

ElysianEternity.6215:

Not the elder dragon of the undead like mostly everywhere else, but specifically an undead elder dragon. It stood out for me when I redid the PS on an alt thus I still remember it clearly.

That’s more likely a case of the luminary not sure whether or not there’s more than one such elder dragon out there.

Though I don’t think they mean an Elder Dragon that is undead, but rather an Elder Dragon of Undeath.

Horst Hortensie.5420:

This book has no author, no writing year and lists just 4 dragons. It might be well-thumbed, but lists obviously just observations of the last ~200 years. It doesn’t really help to get informations about the last rise and the nature of the dragons.

Not the best source, but it’s better than “no source” which is what you currently have.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Necromancer minions are undead in the fact that they’re scrambling constructs of flesh and bone. What they come from were once living, but the minions themselves never were, because they’re constructs.

By that logic Zhaitain, being made (apparently) of necrotic flesh, could be just as easily be described as undead as a bone minion.

Going by appearances it’s not inconceivable that he was assembled from the corpses of more than one dragon. Pure speculation, I admit. But I tremble to think of what eldritch horror would be willing or capable of constructing such a monstrosity.

Why did the former five great races did not kill the dragons while they slept even if the dragons were made of rock you could just mine them until they are nothing:)

If I were them, I’d have been terrified of possibly waking them up again early. It’d be like following a lion that mauled you back to its den and poking at it with a stick. If the Tome of Rubicon is any indication, the other races didn’t want to rush that confrontation- they were content to hope that their descendants would be strong enough to handle them next time they awoke.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

If I were them, I’d have been terrified of possibly waking them up again early. It’d be like following a lion that mauled you back to its den and poking at it with a stick. If the Tome of Rubicon is any indication, the other races didn’t want to rush that confrontation- they were content to hope that their descendants would be strong enough to handle them next time they awoke.

Well from what we know, newly awakened EDs are at there weakest (or at least at lowest magic levels).

CureForLiving.5360:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

If I were them, I’d have been terrified of possibly waking them up again early. It’d be like following a lion that mauled you back to its den and poking at it with a stick. If the Tome of Rubicon is any indication, the other races didn’t want to rush that confrontation- they were content to hope that their descendants would be strong enough to handle them next time they awoke.

Well from what we know, newly awakened EDs are at there weakest (or at least at lowest magic levels).

Even at their weakest, though, they’d likely still be able to corrupt everything in the vicinity. Kralkatorrik created the Dragonbrand after he’d been leaking magic for ten thousand years- how much worse would that have been if they had woken him when he was still pretty much full up?

^That is the thing would the Elder Dragons wake up or just just be mined until they were nothing? And they could have tried this on the weakest one whoever that is they just put enough bombs on them that could level a mountain and trigger them.

adormtil.1605:

^That is the thing would the Elder Dragons wake up or just just be mined until they were nothing? And they could have tried this on the weakest one whoever that is they just put enough bombs on them that could level a mountain and trigger them.

Well the Asura did use Primordius to power their way point network, so maybe. The rules around what wakes them up is a bit unclear.

CureForLiving.5360:

Well from what we know, newly awakened EDs are at there weakest (or at least at lowest magic levels).

This is only true because the Elder Dragons were seeping out magic for ~10,000 years.

It would not be true if they woke only 100 years after falling asleep – they’d still retain all the magic they consumed.

Plus, the idea of attacking the Elder Dragons in their sleep requires the knowledge of their location as well as the ability to actually harm Elder Dragons. Keep in mind that the elder races were in hiding for who-knows-how-long while the Elder Dragons ravaged the world and fell to sleep. There’s no reason to believe that the elder races knew of where they were, let alone had the manpower or firepower to risk waking them up when they’re still strong.

And if you ask why they didn’t thousands of years after they fell asleep – how many civilizations survived that long? In reality, only the dwarves really did, and they forgot about the Elder Dragons’ existence (arguably the Forgotten did too but at least half of their known population went into the Mists so they weren’t at top shape either; jotun had fallen and the seers were practically extinct while the mursaat weren’t in the world until shortly before they began posing as gods).

adormtil.1605:

Why did the former five great races did not kill the dragons while they slept even if the dragons were made of rock you could just mine them until they are nothing:)

Why bother? Sleeping dragons are Someone Else’s Problem.

Why risk your hide when it will only benefit some remote descendant?

Wanderer.3248:

adormtil.1605:

Why did the former five great races did not kill the dragons while they slept even if the dragons were made of rock you could just mine them until they are nothing:)

Why bother? Sleeping dragons are Someone Else’s Problem.

Why risk your hide when it will only benefit some remote descendant?

When said “remote descendant” is the future of your race and culture? I can think of several reasons.

Personally, I suspect it wasn’t for a want of motive or intel that they didn’t try, but a want of means. From what we’ve been told the sum total of dwarf, forgotten, seer, and possibly (though I have my suspicions) jotun civilization had by that point been reduced to a level that Glint could hide all of them, and while we don’t know the upper limit of her abilities, it seems to me implausible to extrapolate that she could hide an area or population as large as, say, modern Kryta. That would leave us with the surviving races making up less than what a single current race does. Even setting aside manpower, though, we don’t know if the elder races, even at the height of their power, could have harmed one of the dragons. We managed to pull it off, because asura magitech is OP, but with the exception of dwarvern blackpowder we haven’t seen any evidence that the jotun or dwarves had any more offensive capabilities than the humans had in GW1 times. Forgotten and seers are harder to pin down, because we know so little about them, but again, there is no evidence that they had a dragon-slaying weapon up their sleeves… and the simple fact that they didn’t attack the dragons in their slumber indicates that either they didn’t have such a weapon or were at least sufficiently uncertain of its success that they weren’t willing to risk it. (I’d file Glint’s spear into that later category.)

As for the possibility of just chipping away at a dragon until it’s gone, we saw in the Zhaitan fight that it had a pain response, or at least an equivalent reaction to damage. That being the case, anything that could hurt it should also be capable of awakening it.

CureForLiving.5360:

ElysianEternity.6215:

Former Sylvari PS lvl 10, when you are summoned to the Pale Tree and meet the luminary of your cycle for the first time.
If you talk to the Firstborn and ask about Zhaitan, the luminary definitely calls him /an/ undead Elder Dragon.

Not the elder dragon of the undead like mostly everywhere else, but specifically an undead elder dragon. It stood out for me when I redid the PS on an alt thus I still remember it clearly.

Depends on the capitalization of ‘undead’, can’t find anything on the wiki. Either I’m looking in the wrong place or it hasn’t been captured.

Prolly hasn’t been captured. The wiki lacks a lot of optional conversations that occur during objectives or at the end of missions

Anyways, here’s the screenshot. Sorry it took so long, I’ve been at my laptop and momentarily I can only access my computer on weekends.

As for the possibility of just chipping away at a dragon until it’s gone, we saw in the Zhaitan fight that it had a pain response, or at least an equivalent reaction to damage. That being the case, anything that could hurt it should also be capable of awakening it.

I mean when they slept and were made of rock I doubt that then they could feel pain someone gave the example of the Azura and Primordius.

The asura, as far as we know, never touched Primordus, just siphoned off the magic he was radiating in his sleep. I don’t think Elder Dragons turn to rock when they sleep, but that Primordus in particular has a rocky appearance.

^What about the Elder Dragon that has minions that are made of crystal? Is a complex and long name that I do not know why he was named like that but from what I understand he was also made of rock when he slept.

adormtil.1605:

^What about the Elder Dragon that has minions that are made of crystal? Is a complex and long name that I do not know why he was named like that but from what I understand he was also made of rock when he slept.

Opinions may vary, but I never thought he looked much like rock.

adormtil.1605:

As for the possibility of just chipping away at a dragon until it’s gone, we saw in the Zhaitan fight that it had a pain response, or at least an equivalent reaction to damage. That being the case, anything that could hurt it should also be capable of awakening it.

I mean when they slept and were made of rock I doubt that then they could feel pain someone gave the example of the Azura and Primordius.

Elder Dragons aren’t made of rock. They’re covered by rock after a time. Because that’s just how dust, dirt, and soil works.

adormtil.1605:

^What about the Elder Dragon that has minions that are made of crystal? Is a complex and long name that I do not know why he was named like that but from what I understand he was also made of rock when he slept.

Kralkatorrik was mistaken for a mountain (range), but there were still charr who thought “that can’t be a mountain, it has scales.” Which was often dismissed as “they’re scale-like rocks.”

The mistakes were due to modern races not knowing about the Elder Dragons. It is NEVER said that they were actually made of rock – Kralkatorrik or other.

Asura are only known to have siphon magic from Primordus – and why would they start chipping away the “statue” that “practically bleeds magic”. They risk losing their gate network’s power source.

^I never said the Azura should do that I gave the example that it did not awakaned Primordius being used by them. I mean they most likely still implanted something in him to use that magic my opinion of course.

I don’t think that the asura gathering the magic that Primordus naturally exuded affected Primordus in any way, shape, or form imaginable.

It would be like people taking seeds out of poop to make coffee; the animal no longer uses it, so it doesn’t affect said animal in any way.

Not to say magic is Elder Dragon feces… I prefer to alliteration of “sweat” instead… but its the same kind of concept. Primordus exuded that magic – he was done with it – so taking it did not affect him.

ElysianEternity.6215:

CureForLiving.5360:

ElysianEternity.6215:

Former Sylvari PS lvl 10, when you are summoned to the Pale Tree and meet the luminary of your cycle for the first time.
If you talk to the Firstborn and ask about Zhaitan, the luminary definitely calls him /an/ undead Elder Dragon.

Not the elder dragon of the undead like mostly everywhere else, but specifically an undead elder dragon. It stood out for me when I redid the PS on an alt thus I still remember it clearly.

Depends on the capitalization of ‘undead’, can’t find anything on the wiki. Either I’m looking in the wrong place or it hasn’t been captured.

Prolly hasn’t been captured. The wiki lacks a lot of optional conversations that occur during objectives or at the end of missions

Anyways, here’s the screenshot. Sorry it took so long, I’ve been at my laptop and momentarily I can only access my computer on weekends.

Based on the dialog in the screenshot I’d say him being an undead elder dragon instead of the Undead Elder Dragon is kinda looking more likely. At the very least it’s clear that he’s body is a composition of undead flesh (if it wasn’t clear just by looking at him).

Aaron Ansari.1604:

The asura, as far as we know, never touched Primordus, just siphoned off the magic he was radiating in his sleep. I don’t think Elder Dragons turn to rock when they sleep, but that Primordus in particular has a rocky appearance.

Well the two cases we know of is Primordius (who is a rock dragon) and Kralkatorrik (who is a crystal dragon) kinda aren’t very good examples of what EDs look like when they sleep since both are rock / crystal whether they’re awake or asleep.

adormtil.1605:

Is a complex and long name

Perhaps we can call him Krally. Mmm doesn’t feel like good shorthand… Kralka? Torry?… ok I’ll think of something later maybe I’ll have something by the time the living story finally gets to him.

CureForLiving.5360:

Based on the dialog in the screenshot I’d say him being an undead elder dragon instead of the Undead Elder Dragon is kinda looking more likely. At the very least it’s clear that he’s body is a composition of undead flesh (if it wasn’t clear just by looking at him).

I’d agree except for one major fact: ArenaNet has put a lot of effort into ensuring the concept of “NPCs don’t always know what they’re talking about” to hold true. While this doesn’t always hold true sadly (coughScarletBriarandTaimicough), unless it was first hand information or coming from an expert’s mouth, it usually was.

Luminaries never saw Zhaitan, so why would they know whether he is or isn’t? For all we know, they heard Trahearne and Caithe describing him, and go “clearly, he’s undead!” Or they just know he’s a master of the undead and thus think he must be as well in the same style that most players think such.

It’s been a possibility that he’s undead, but I am doubtful nonetheless. And if he is undead, then it is by no means related to his power – unless we want to start saying Jormag is made out of ice, Kralkatorrik out of crystal, and Primordus out of fire. And we know the last two are downright wrong – if we cannot say the same for Jormag as well, despite his fang.

CureForLiving.5360:

Well the two cases we know of is Primordius (who is a rock dragon) and Kralkatorrik (who is a crystal dragon) kinda aren’t very good examples of what EDs look like when they sleep since both are rock / crystal whether they’re awake or asleep.

Primordus is fire, not rock.

And Kralkatorrik isn’t a crystal dragon. He is explicitly seen and stated to have flesh and scales and is known to bleed – though his blood does crystallize when it coagulates. Unless you want to say that this is crystal. There are better angles of him in GW1, which clearly show scales.

Kralkatorrik is not “a crystal dragon” – Glint is a crystal dragon – Kralkatorrik is the Elder Crystal Dragon. Difference.

CureForLiving.5360:

Perhaps we can call him Krally. Mmm doesn’t feel like good shorthand… Kralka? Torry?… ok I’ll think of something later maybe I’ll have something by the time the living story finally gets to him.

Some people shorten Kralkatorrik into “Kralky”. And I’ve seen Mordremoth shortened into Mordy.

But I’m sure you have three years before we get to him. That is if Kralkatorrik is the next dragon still.

And Kralkatorrik isn’t a crystal dragon. He is explicitly seen and stated to have flesh and scales and is known to bleed – though his blood does crystallize when it coagulates. Unless you want to say that this is crystal. There are better angles of him in GW1, which clearly show scales.

How did Destiny Edge made him bleed id they bomb him because a swords or knife is like trying to get blood from a human with very rough skin with a 1/4 of a toothpick. You can but it takes so much time that the DE did not have.

Actually, do we know if Zhaitan is really dead? Might well be that we just kinda put him to an “early sleep”, wih him waking up in another ten thousand years or maybe less since he probably wasn’t fed that well by the time we killed him…

Zaitan’s corpse is another big omission from the storyline. The Pact would surely want to find it and secure it. I think there have been interviews though confirming that Zaitan was killed (and the Personal Story was not a waste of time).

adormtil.1605:

And Kralkatorrik isn’t a crystal dragon. He is explicitly seen and stated to have flesh and scales and is known to bleed – though his blood does crystallize when it coagulates. Unless you want to say that this is crystal. There are better angles of him in GW1, which clearly show scales.

How did Destiny Edge made him bleed id they bomb him because a swords or knife is like trying to get blood from a human with very rough skin with a 1/4 of a toothpick. You can but it takes so much time that the DE did not have.

Whoever said it was Destiny’s Edge? Not I!

Glint explained that there was a battle in which Kralkatorrik was injured in the previous dragon rise, and that he bled in the now Crystal Desert. Caithe found similar crystallized dragon blood in the Dragonbrand, indicating that his wound had not (entirely) closed – or it reopened when he unburied himself.

^So why do they praise themselves that they almost took a Elder Dragon? I heard that from Rylock.

Because they almost did. Snaff crippled Kralkatorrik, grounding him. Ten or so seconds longer, and Rytlock could have thrust a spear made from Kralkatorrik’s spine through his ribcage – per Glint’s directions – and pierced Kralkatorrik’s heart. Rytlock was practically right next to the Elder Dragon when Snaff was killed, and Kralkatorrik flew off.

Almost the damage they did to Kralkatorrik directly, however, was mental. Though Glint may have cut him and Eir shot exploding crystalline arrows at him (the tips being made out of said blood to cover him with the stuff for Snaff to take control over Kralkatorrik’s mind and body easier, alongside with the yoke he made). For the most part of the battle, Kralkatorrik was in the air, out of reach of the rest of Destiny’s Edge, who were busy fighting the newly made Branded.

And yet we killed Zaithan with cannons on a airship to prove how kitten we are for bombing someone.

Yes, we killed Zhaitan with anti-Risen magitech cannon, lasers, and elecrified grappling hooks…

After we starved him for weeks, via preventing him from spreading his corruption into new minions, removing his means of consuming the magic in artifacts, and cleansing the corruption of the land’s most powerful magic itself.

Mind you, the fight itself was rather dull even at release, and it only became ever the more mindnumbingly simple since. But storywise, we did a ton of damage to Zhaitan before we even see him. It would be like one of us going to fight an anorexic bear with a gun.