Guild Wars 2

And why it reflects badly on the Sylvari…

See, I was raised by a psychiatrist so I was taught that the percentage of people that are realistically beyond redemption is actually quite small if enough time and resources are spent helping them find the root of their issues. Spending that time and resurces is another matter and one most real world organizations responsible for housing criminals seem to have little inclinaton to exert but I digress.

With this fundamental fact understood, if I still choose to take Caithe at her word about the irredeemable nature of the Nightmare Court and not simply assume that she’s biased and ignorant of the concept of therapy (a likely possibility given she’s in a medieval fantasy universe) but if I DON’T assume that and instead take what’s being said at face value.

Then…the problem doesn’t lie with Caithe it lies with the Sylvari as a race, if Nightmare Court Sylvari are truly irredeemable then it makes the race as a whole less human, more corruptable, less sapiant. If a Nightmare Court Sylvari is truly incapable of changing their mind, then it stands to reason that Sylvari are ticking timebombs. If all it takes is a few days of torture to make Sylvari (see the light) then they must have the resolve of marshmellows and a sense of self with more holes than a termite nest. Strong willed individuals have lasted through alot worse and you’d think that the Sylvari being literally born with a purpose would have a resolve score so high that everything else would be a dump stat.

But NOPE they betray their loved ones, they betray their allies, they turn heel so fast you’d think they were looking for an excuse to betray those people. And thinking on the fact that they were originally engineered to be Dragon servants I can’t help but wonder if that’s not because they’re NATURALLY more inclined to a Nightmare disposition.

And yes I know brainwashing is a thing, but REAL brainwashing does NOT work that quickly and it also ONLY works on a certain percentage of the human population, the fact that the Nightmare Court almost ALWAYS yields results indicates that Sylvari are more susceptible to brainwashing on average than is sane. They’re a security risk, a ticking time bomb, forget about the Tree being purified! With willpower like this they might as well have been sleeper agents all along!

I think the irredeemable part is meant to make them less humanlike – after all, they are not humans.

However, it’s more than just a few days of torture. We have examples were some sylvari last for weeks when imprisoned by the Nightmare Court, while others fall without hours. That’s not a universal thing.

Also keep in mind that the Nightmare is not brainwashing, as traditionally known (especially by a psychiatrist), but like the Dream an actual shared consciousness of sorts – we aren’t exactly sure what it is, but we know that it seems to be sentient to a degree, unrelated to Mordremoth or the dragon hive mind, and a difference between good and evil mentality.

Falling to Nightmare is closer to a direct rewriting of one’s persona than simple brainwashing. And falling to Nightmare isn’t solely a case of willpower.

To add to what Konig said, we can also feel free to consider the psychological resources available. The options that we fairly recently have available to us that make most people potentially salvageable may simply not be available in Tyria. They have mind magic but they may be very far behind when it comes to psychological disorders. Or….. alternatively, the pathology may be well beyond what we have available today.

edit: Most of what applies to the sylvari can also be said of anyone dragon corrupted. So if the speed and ease at wich it’s done is the problem, then the problem is applied across the board. Even the ability for corruption independent of the dragons direct intention. (In the case of Jormag and the Sons)

And in the Sons of Svanirs case, the norns start with no specific qualms against evil deeds. So much so that they would admire them without corruption, as long as they are noteworthy enough.

edit 2: Thinking more on it, the sylvari are kind of a message of hope. Even creatures who are potentially created to be minions of evil have a chance to be something else. Not all will succeed but they are stable enough to send spies and sabateurs into the Court to disrupt their plans.

I know that ‘Because magic!’ is normally a very unsatisfying explanation, but being subject to mystical forces beyond their control or comprehension has always been part of the sylvari’s identity. The direct interaction in their daily lives with the unknown forces that shaped them, the notion that their lives and choices may not be entirely their own (and that applies as much to the inborn purpose you mentioned as the forced conversions to Nightmare), these are central themes of the race. It’s a big part of what makes them more than leafy humans. I agree that, if this were a cut and dry case of mental disorder, the handling of the Nightmare Court would’ve been distasteful, but it’s important to remember that whatever psychological malfunctions they experience are just a symptom. The root cause is mysterious, and magical, and a bunch of other confounding words that mean it can’t simply be treated- at least, not without a lot more understanding than they, or we, currently have of what the Dream and Nightmare actually are.

I’d just like to add that some of the captured Sylvari probably don’t turn, they die (either in the process or because the Court has no other use for the unturnable ones apart from poisoning the Dream with their suffering and death). And that’s why they don’t run around telling the story.

Anninke makes a good point – we don’t see how many Dream sylvari resist unto death.

Another thing to consider is that Caithe may be an unreliable narrator. She’s certainly not an unbiased observer – during those story steps, the leader of the Nightmare Court was Caithe’s former lover, and being unable to let go of that love was literally poisoning her in Edge of Destiny. It might simply be believing that Nightmare Courtiers are irreversibly transformed to evil is easier for her. Easier because it means that she can blame the Nightmare for corrupting her lover rather than admitting that Faolain was a nasty piece of work from the beginning. Easier because it meant that she could tell herself that the Faolain she loved was gone forever, and thus avoid the risk of being poisoned again through continuing to have love for Faolain while remaining apart from the Nightmare Court. And easier because she can afford to be ruthless when dealing with the Nightmare Court if she believes the courtiers she slays genuinely have no chance of returning to their former selves.

The way I see it, the question comes down to this: is a chance that you have no reason to believe exists, that very well may not exist at all, and that, if it does exist, requires something so obscure or so difficult that none of the friends and lovers who’ve tried to redeem a courtier in the past have managed it- is a chance like that any meaningfully different than no chance at all? It’s not like we’re just taking Caithe’s word for it here. That entire chapter of the personal story was set up to demonstrate what happens when someone tries to get a Courtier back, and it doesn’t end in sunshine and rainbows. Ysvelta and Tiachren, by all accounts and by what we ourselves see, weren’t bad apples to begin with, but by the end at least one is practically drooling at the thought of butchering saplings. She doesn’t respond to any plea by the man she loves, except with violence, and the effort to save her in one path just causes Tiachren to share in her fall. Add to that no reports of a Courtier repenting, for any reason, and the only entity who can claim some expertise in the field declaring that they are twisted beyond repair… I agree that Caithe alone would be unreliable, but she’s only a piece in a pattern meant to hammer into us that it just doesn’t happen.

Pipedream, with your “psychological” way of analyzing the Sylvari you are quite overshooting the subject.
The concept of The Dream and The Nightmare is not as black-n’-white as it might seem.
From a lore point of view, The Nightmare Court itself consists mostly of Sylvari that do not agree with the teachings of Ventari, BUT even if they do not agree with these specific teachings, they still have a – mostly individual – understanding of values.
Some value life, others not.
Faolain for example cares deeply for Caithe and that to an extend, where she absorbs the poison in Caithe’s body, endagering and eventually crippling herself (her hand, to be exact).
Not to forget at this point that this is the same person that, without hesitation, would kill anyone who stands in her way.
Even though The Nightmare Court is meant to be the enemy faction of the Sylvari race, it is not as witless as for example the Flame-Legion or the Sons of Svanir, where it is pretty much like: part of the faction → 100% evil.
The Sylvari are far away from being time bombs and most of the courtiers chose actively to be part the Nightmare.
For the one’s, which were “forced” into it: Every being has its breaking point. Like Koenig said: Some last longer, while others give in quicker.
Nevertheless, from a lore AND !psychological! point of view: you will not find the same conviction and passion in a Sylvari, who was forced by torture into The Nightmare, as you’d in a Sylvari, who freely chose to be part of it.
Most of the “forced one’s” show signs of mindless puppets, like Tiarchen and Ysvelta from the personal story.
The Nightmare Court poisons The Dream by torturing Sylvari and thus corrupting it, because every Sylvari’s experience becomes part of The Dream of Dreams.
So, please stop this “They are all bad, we need a purge”-thing. That is so pre-HoT!

@Aaron: The attempt to turn Ysvelte back wasn’t really all that sophisticated, though. It basically went:

Tiachran: I’m here to rescue you by the Power of Love!
Ysvelte: I was thinking I’d destroy Astorea instead.
Tiachran: You are dead to me!

This is summarising a bit, of course, but suffice to say that Tiachran’s intervention probably wouldn’t be sufficient to break a conventional brainwashing, let alone whatever mindkittenry the Nightmare Court uses, and he gives up and accepts that the old Ysvelte is irrecoverable pretty quickly. What if she was taken alive and placed in the care of skilled mesmer-psychologists instead?

There have been cases in the story before where it’s been a plot point that something can’t be done, and then it later turns out that there is a way after all. For instance, everyone says that Kellach’s dragon corruption can’t be treated, and then we discover the Forgotten ritual. With Faolain and Mordremoth both out of the picture, it’s possible that we’ll see more developments with the Nightmare Court.

@Teo: I’m not sure it can be said that every member of the Sons of Svanir or the Flame Legion is 100% evil, though. The Sons of Svanir basically come across as part gang, part cult – an organisation that preys on the young and insecure and those who feel rejected by society. They’re misogynistic and rude to outsiders, but this could be related to ‘boys club’ behaviour – antisocial and with deplorable attitudes, yes, but not 100% irredeemable evil with every recruit. The Flame Legion is somewhat similar – some do seem to join out of wanting to learn more out of magic or feeling like they’ve been rejected and have nowhere else to go rather than simply being evil, and there is that charr storyline where a member of the Flame Legion defects back in order to warn of an attack. Taken on the whole, both factions are certainly evil and should be opposed, but I don’t think every member is irredeemable.

That said, though, just because someone might be redeemable doesn’t mean it’s worth the effort. Fight first, and if there’s something about an individual which gives you hope that you can redeem them, then maybe it’s worth a try. Not much point randomly trying to redeem the typical footsoldier just for the sake of it.

draxynnic.3719:

There have been cases in the story before where it’s been a plot point that something can’t be done, and then it later turns out that there is a way after all. For instance, everyone says that Kellach’s dragon corruption can’t be treated, and then we discover the Forgotten ritual. With Faolain and Mordremoth both out of the picture, it’s possible that we’ll see more developments with the Nightmare Court.

Sure, and that precedent has left me unwilling to say ‘will’ or ’can’t’, but that turning out has always been some knowledge or magic coming forward that wasn’t available before- that is, a plot twist that couldn’t have been predicted in-universe. And while I am hoping for more Nightmare Court developments, there’s nothing saying that development will be a cure. ANet could take that course, naturally, but in a way it comes down to the ground we went over when the sylvari-as-dragon-minions came to light: just because it turned out to be correct doesn’t mean the belief is justified.

In this case, major figures with a reason to have interest in the subject, Caithe and the Pale Tree, both say it can’t be done, which means A.) it hasn’t been done in the past, or surely the Pale Tree at least would know, and B.) they haven’t had any hint that it could be done in the future, or else why would Caithe, who’s still enough in love with Faolain to teeter on the brink of turning to Nightmare herself, give up hope?

Applying that to the mesmer-psychologist idea, we’re left with three possibilities: A.) no one in the ten-to-twenty years the Court’s been around has thought to give it a try, or at least has managed to act on the thought; B.) that approach simply doesn’t work either; or C.) mesmer-psychology isn’t a thing in Tyria, or at least among the sylvari. I have trouble swallowing A- we capture plenty of courtiers just in the Personal Story, and I can’t believe the Wardens wouldn’t allow attempts to cure the ones they keep prisoner- so that leaves it either impossible or waiting on the mesmer-psych plot twist to come out of the blue.