Guild Wars 2

Theory submission for discussion:

Humanity arrived on the planet of Tyria via a spacecraft/or a portal with the help and oversight of humans that later became the Six Human Gods.

(The points below are from the GW and GW2 Wiki’s)

-Humans can become Gods. (The Kormir Ascendancy)
-The Gods are referred to as Human Gods not charr, or norn or asuran Gods.
-Dwayna and a human have a child.
-The Gods aren’t omnipotent or omniscient.
-The Six Human Gods only predate humanity very slightly
-The Human Gods founded Arah and settled humanity in Cantha in 786 BE
-The first mention in the histories is of Dwayna, written in 115 BE.
-Elder Dragons were causing discord in Tyria long before humans arrived.
-The Six Human Gods each reflect one of the Six Aspects of Power in Tyria.

Full Reddit Discussion here:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/12qx3z/ancient_astronauts_and_the_humans_of_tyria/

GW2Guru Discussion with references:
http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/74556-on-the-origin-of-the-human-gods-of-tyria/

human gods were never previously humans, with the exception of Kormir.

they’re called human gods because they’re the gods the humans revere.

BrunoBRS.5178:

human gods were never previously humans, with the exception of Kormir.

they’re called human gods because they’re the gods the humans revere.

Actually, no.

Wherever they originated, humans are not native to the world as they were brought there by the Six Gods. The gods themselves only predate humans by a short period of time. http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Human#History

And:

At an unknown time after the writing of the Tome of Rubicon, they arrived on Tyria and brought the humans with them (although humans believe that they created Tyria, and the charr also have legends of Melandru creating the world), but from where is not known. Their age is also unknown, but it is known that the current pantheon is not the first, and that it is not as old as the Elder Dragons. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Six_Human_Gods

The Human Gods are clearly and closely linked to humans and essentially arrived with humanity on the world of Tyria.

yes, but where does it say they used to be humans and ascended to godhood? all we know is that by the time humans arrived in the planet Tyria, the gods were already gods. since, you know, they teleported an entire race through planes of existence.

and the human gods are called the human gods by the other races. just like we humans called the titans “the charr gods” in GW prophecies. it’s called “labelling”.

they’re not implying they are human and gods. they’re saying they’re the gods of the humans, in the same way you’d say greek gods or egyptian gods.

BrunoBRS.5178:

yes, but where does it say they used to be humans and ascended to godhood? all we know is that by the time humans arrived in the planet Tyria, the gods were already gods. since, you know, they teleported an entire race through planes of existence.

and the human gods are called the human gods by the other races. just like we humans called the titans “the charr gods” in GW prophecies. it’s called “labelling”.

they’re not implying they are human and gods. they’re saying they’re the gods of the humans, in the same way you’d say greek gods or egyptian gods.

You state that the Human Gods were never human, I simply point out that there is no reason to think that.

Titans were worshipped by the charr while they were under sway of Flame Legion’s Shamans. The Titans, ever how powerful weren’t really Gods. The charr were being misled, essentially for political reasons.

The Six Gods, are decidedly human by association and chronology and they are decidedly god-like in nature while not omnipotent much like the Greek Pantheon.

We know the mechanism exists for a mortal human to become one of the Six.

I simply maintain that each of the original Six discovered a way to take upon themselves Aspects of Power at some point not long after their arrival on Tyria.

i’m not saying they were never human. i’m saying that, until proven wrong, they never were human. and you have yet to produce evidence that even suggests that possibility.

my comparison to greek gods was just showing that “human gods” is a really weak argument, because “human gods” stands for “gods of the humans”, not “gods that are human”.

that “mechanism” involves 5 gods giving god powers to a human, and only through the death of another, fallen god.

BrunoBRS.5178:

i’m not saying they were never human.

But that’s exactly what you said.

BrunoBRS.5178:

human gods were never previously humans, with the exception of Kormir.

Also, we know for sure that Grenth was already half human and that the gods themselves chose Kormir to join their clique.
I’m not convinced the rest of the gods are human exactly since they seem far more advanced then the humans they brought over but it’s not exactly unlikely either. We know they can at least breed with humans and their image is presented as human-like.

what i’m saying is based on lore. i don’t like “what ifs”, because you can “what if” anything. and there has been no supporting evidence that even implies the gods are humans.

the closest you have is Grenth, which was born “half god” (which means he didn’t start from scratch, and already had god powers upon birth, and was likely ‘born’ in full adult form), and the way he was conceived is never really explained (the scripture makes it sound like Dwayna conceived Grenth via ‘he touched my face with his hand’).

plus, Grenth is a horrible example, even if you assume he was conceived through conventional methods. take a look, once again, at the greek gods. they had children with humans all the time, and yet they were still very distinctively not mortals. it’s a common trope in mythology to have the divine beings fall in love with a mortal.

last but not least, “their image is presented as human-like”. so are the norn. and norns can also look like bears. does that make the norn bears? or human? no.

what i’m saying is based on lore. i don’t like “what ifs”, because you can “what if” anything. and there has been no supporting evidence that even implies the gods are humans.

You have a right to feel anyway you want.

As for evidence, we have to look at what we do know in order to form theories that explain some of the things we don’t know.

It is perfectly established that the Six Gods are linked closely in almost every way to humans:

• The near simultaneous arrival on Tyria of humans and the Gods

• The Six Human Gods are focused more on humans than other races

• Two of the Gods that we know of have blatant human origins: Grenth and Kormir

• The Six Human Gods did not immediately make themselves known to humans, the first mention is 670 years after humans settled in Cantha

• The Six Aspects of Power and the Elder Dragons existed on Tyria long before the Human Gods

• It appears that other races recognized the Six Aspects, but not necessarily the Six Gods, in their own specific cultures

Hmmm, I’m not convinced they are essentially “greater” humans, or however you want to define them. They are uniquely tied to humans I will give you that. Let’s not forget Abaddon and Dhuum were gods too, I’m not sure anyone would consider them original humans but I don’t know. So there is really 8 to consider.

Also, the gods are tied to magic; being both the ones who granted it to Tyria in the first place, and the ones who reigned it in with the Bloodstones(which is when Abaddon gets angry). It’s interesting to note the “blood” of the stones was human blood, King Doric’s blood was used in the process of sealing the stones’ power before they were flung across the continent.

Near simultaneous arrival doesn’t exactly cut it for good evidence. There could be many reasons we don’t hear about them before, not the least of which is the fact that the Tyrian language is almost the only language in which all the histories are kept.

Your last point is interesting. If it was the aspects and not the gods themselves that is the real divine power, then it could be said that the six gods may be just supreme human “channellers” of an existing magic, and not the magic themselves. That would lend credence to them starting out as anything other than divine methinks.

BrunoBRS.5178:

what i’m saying is based on lore. i don’t like “what ifs”, because you can “what if” anything.

BrunoBRS.5178:

the closest you have is Grenth, which was born “half god” (which means he didn’t start from scratch, and already had god powers upon birth, and was likely ‘born’ in full adult form)

It doesn’t say that in the lore, you’re making a what if.

While the gods are very closely associated to humans, and definitely brought humans to Tyria, there is nothing that actually proves that the gods used to be humans. Sure, they COULD have been, and that would explain a lot (like the whole kormir thing). But there’s no proof.

Dreamwalker.3617:

While the gods are very closely associated to humans, and definitely brought humans to Tyria, there is nothing that actually proves that the gods used to be humans. Sure, they COULD have been, and that would explain a lot (like the whole kormir thing). But there’s no proof.

Yes, and decidedly there’s nothing that disproves that the Gods used to be human either.

I would argue that there are more indications that Gods were once human versus that they were not.

The mechanism has been shown, twice before with Grenth and Kormir.

Interestingly, Grenth represents two variations of the mechanism, his demi-god status and his later ascent to Godhood by overthrowing Dhuum.

Obsidian.1328:

Hmmm, I’m not convinced they are essentially “greater” humans, or however you want to define them. They are uniquely tied to humans I will give you that. Let’s not forget Abaddon and Dhuum were gods too, I’m not sure anyone would consider them original humans but I don’t know. So there is really 8 to consider.

Yes, I play around with 8 proto-Gods in a short fan fiction version of my theory I am working on.

I treat all the known Human Gods as players with the exception of Kormir, obviously, because she arrives much later on the scene:

Balthazar: Security, Weaponry, and Armory Chief.
Dwayna: Medical and Life Support Officer.
Dhuum: Cryogenics Officer
Grenth: Cryogenics and Embryonic Sustainment Technician
Abaddon: Enforcement and Intelligence Officer
Melandru: Biotechnology Officer

And the lovely and alluring, almost mesmerizing, twins:

Lyssa: Morale Officer
Ilya: Psychologist

-from Prologue: Destination Tyria

As for appearances, I believe that taking upon the Aspects could readily account for appearances and specific manifestations.

Also, the gods are tied to magic; being both the ones who granted it to Tyria in the first place, and the ones who reigned it in with the Bloodstones(which is when Abaddon gets angry). It’s interesting to note the “blood” of the stones was human blood, King Doric’s blood was used in the process of sealing the stones’ power before they were flung across the continent.

So, even more human-centric tie between Gods and humans. Not shocked.

Near simultaneous arrival doesn’t exactly cut it for good evidence. There could be many reasons we don’t hear about them before, not the least of which is the fact that the Tyrian language is almost the only language in which all the histories are kept.

Yes, but Canthans were obviously keeping records as proved by their calendars and reigning emperors.

Your last point is interesting. If it was the aspects and not the gods themselves that is the real divine power, then it could be said that the six gods may be just supreme human “channellers” of an existing magic, and not the magic themselves. That would lend credence to them starting out as anything other than divine methinks.

I lean toward the Six Aspects idea because it simply means humans unlock something when they arrived on Tyria and also because lore says:

[T]hey arrived on Tyria and brought the humans with them (although humans believe that they created Tyria, and the charr also have legends of Melandru creating the world), but from where is not known. Their age is also unknown, but it is known that the current pantheon is not the first, and that it is not as old as the Elder Dragons.

The current Pantheon is not the first.

Curious, eh?

It’s obvious that Balthazar is a charr, dwayna is a harpy, melandru is a version of a oakenheart, Abaddon is a creepy conglomeration of spiders/insects/human, and Dhuum, and Lyssa are decidedly human.

Now there is no evidence to prove this, but Balthazar has horns like a charr, and Dwayna has wings like a harpy :P

Narcemus.1348:

It’s obvious that Balthazar is a charr, dwayna is a harpy, melandru is a version of a oakenheart, Abaddon is a creepy conglomeration of spiders/insects/human, and Dhuum, and Lyssa are decidedly human.

Now there is no evidence to prove this, but Balthazar has horns like a charr, and Dwayna has wings like a harpy :P

Cute, but no cigar for being off topic.

Just so you know, if Harpies, Oakenhearts, Spiders, charr, etc. all had histories and lore tied to specific Gods; you might have the beginning of a theory. But they don’t, cutesie and not helpful.

The Six Gods, often called the Human Gods, correlate with humans chronologically in events and actions. There is no ambiguity in this statement concerning the Human Gods:

They arrived on Tyria and brought the humans with them… it is known that the current pantheon is not the first, and that it is not as old as the Elder Dragons.

Kuldebar.1897:

what i’m saying is based on lore. i don’t like “what ifs”, because you can “what if” anything. and there has been no supporting evidence that even implies the gods are humans.

You have a right to feel anyway you want.

As for evidence, we have to look at what we do know in order to form theories that explain some of the things we don’t know.

It is perfectly established that the Six Gods are linked closely in almost every way to humans:

• The near simultaneous arrival on Tyria of humans and the Gods

• The Six Human Gods are focused more on humans than other races

• Two of the Gods that we know of have blatant human origins: Grenth and Kormir

• The Six Human Gods did not immediately make themselves known to humans, the first mention is 670 years after humans settled in Cantha

• The Six Aspects of Power and the Elder Dragons existed on Tyria long before the Human Gods

• It appears that other races recognized the Six Aspects, but not necessarily the Six Gods, in their own specific cultures

of course they’re tied to humans closely. it’s like saying the christian god is tied to christians. for all we know the human gods could’ve created humans. but we don’t know. all we know is that humans worship them, and that humans are in tyria (planet) because of them.

and the human gods have absolutely no tie to the dragons.

all the races accept the existence of the six gods. it’s not something you deny. they might not worship them (the charr see them as enemies, the asuras think they’re just part of the eternal alchemy), but they know the gods exist. because the human gods are real, tangible, living beings, not something that may or may not exist like real world religions.

Alexander.4827:

BrunoBRS.5178:

what i’m saying is based on lore. i don’t like “what ifs”, because you can “what if” anything.

BrunoBRS.5178:

the closest you have is Grenth, which was born “half god” (which means he didn’t start from scratch, and already had god powers upon birth, and was likely ‘born’ in full adult form)

It doesn’t say that in the lore, you’re making a what if.

it doesn’t ever mention his childhood or birth, which is kind of interesting considering he’s a freaking god, and historians and devotees would be all over an event like that. doubt it? just look at christmas. an entire holiday celebrated after the birth of the son of god, and every christian makes a huge deal out of it.

Kuldebar.1897:

Narcemus.1348:

It’s obvious that Balthazar is a charr, dwayna is a harpy, melandru is a version of a oakenheart, Abaddon is a creepy conglomeration of spiders/insects/human, and Dhuum, and Lyssa are decidedly human.

Now there is no evidence to prove this, but Balthazar has horns like a charr, and Dwayna has wings like a harpy :P

Cute, but no cigar for being off topic.

Just so you know, if Harpies, Oakenhearts, Spiders, charr, etc. all had histories and lore tied to specific Gods; you might have the beginning of a theory. But they don’t, cutesie and not helpful.

The Six Gods, often called the Human Gods, correlate with humans chronologically in events and actions. There is no ambiguity in this statement concerning the Human Gods:

They arrived on Tyria and brought the humans with them… it is known that the current pantheon is not the first, and that it is not as old as the Elder Dragons.

Well…it also states that the gods created the Forgotten, which were in Tyria waaaaay before the humans were. That’s a little ambiguous.

Obsidian.1328:

Kuldebar.1897:

Narcemus.1348:

It’s obvious that Balthazar is a charr, dwayna is a harpy, melandru is a version of a oakenheart, Abaddon is a creepy conglomeration of spiders/insects/human, and Dhuum, and Lyssa are decidedly human.

Now there is no evidence to prove this, but Balthazar has horns like a charr, and Dwayna has wings like a harpy :P

Cute, but no cigar for being off topic.

Just so you know, if Harpies, Oakenhearts, Spiders, charr, etc. all had histories and lore tied to specific Gods; you might have the beginning of a theory. But they don’t, cutesie and not helpful.

The Six Gods, often called the Human Gods, correlate with humans chronologically in events and actions. There is no ambiguity in this statement concerning the Human Gods:

They arrived on Tyria and brought the humans with them… it is known that the current pantheon is not the first, and that it is not as old as the Elder Dragons.

Well…it also states that the gods created the Forgotten, which were in Tyria waaaaay before the humans were. That’s a little ambiguous.

Umm, you are forgetting this:

They arrived on Tyria and brought the humans with them… it is known that the current pantheon is not the first, and that it is not as old as the Elder Dragons.

Please consider that phrase:

it is known that the current pantheon is not the first

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Human_Gods

Kuldebar.1897:

Obsidian.1328:

Kuldebar.1897:

Narcemus.1348:

It’s obvious that Balthazar is a charr, dwayna is a harpy, melandru is a version of a oakenheart, Abaddon is a creepy conglomeration of spiders/insects/human, and Dhuum, and Lyssa are decidedly human.

Now there is no evidence to prove this, but Balthazar has horns like a charr, and Dwayna has wings like a harpy :P

Cute, but no cigar for being off topic.

Just so you know, if Harpies, Oakenhearts, Spiders, charr, etc. all had histories and lore tied to specific Gods; you might have the beginning of a theory. But they don’t, cutesie and not helpful.

The Six Gods, often called the Human Gods, correlate with humans chronologically in events and actions. There is no ambiguity in this statement concerning the Human Gods:

They arrived on Tyria and brought the humans with them… it is known that the current pantheon is not the first, and that it is not as old as the Elder Dragons.

Well…it also states that the gods created the Forgotten, which were in Tyria waaaaay before the humans were. That’s a little ambiguous.

Umm, you are forgetting this:

They arrived on Tyria and brought the humans with them… it is known that the current pantheon is not the first, and that it is not as old as the Elder Dragons.

Please consider that phrase:

it is known that the current pantheon is not the first

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Human_Gods

yes, and forgotten lore also mentions those same gods.

BrunoBRS.5178:

the closest you have is Grenth, which was born “half god” (which means he didn’t start from scratch, and already had god powers upon birth, and was likely ‘born’ in full adult form)

It doesn’t say that in the lore, you’re making a what if.

Gods are not mentioned in human history until 115BE, 670 years after humans arrived on the world of Tyria, so the lack of a birth announcement isn’t too shocking. It isn’t even clear when Grenth was born or when Malchor did his sculpting, keep in mind that the Human Gods founded Arah upon their arrival on the world, Arah much later became the capital of Orr.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Kuldebar.1897:

Obsidian.1328:

Kuldebar.1897:

Narcemus.1348:

It’s obvious that Balthazar is a charr, dwayna is a harpy, melandru is a version of a oakenheart, Abaddon is a creepy conglomeration of spiders/insects/human, and Dhuum, and Lyssa are decidedly human.

Now there is no evidence to prove this, but Balthazar has horns like a charr, and Dwayna has wings like a harpy :P

Cute, but no cigar for being off topic.

Just so you know, if Harpies, Oakenhearts, Spiders, charr, etc. all had histories and lore tied to specific Gods; you might have the beginning of a theory. But they don’t, cutesie and not helpful.

The Six Gods, often called the Human Gods, correlate with humans chronologically in events and actions. There is no ambiguity in this statement concerning the Human Gods:

They arrived on Tyria and brought the humans with them… it is known that the current pantheon is not the first, and that it is not as old as the Elder Dragons.

Well…it also states that the gods created the Forgotten, which were in Tyria waaaaay before the humans were. That’s a little ambiguous.

Umm, you are forgetting this:

They arrived on Tyria and brought the humans with them… it is known that the current pantheon is not the first, and that it is not as old as the Elder Dragons.

Please consider that phrase:

it is known that the current pantheon is not the first

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Human_Gods

yes, and forgotten lore also mentions those same gods.

No, a different Pantheon of Gods who may or may not have shared the same Aspects. Forgotten were already on Tyria long before the arrival of the Human Gods.

The Human Gods are not the first Pantheon of Gods in Tyria’s history.

i don’t recall anywhere saying that the gods the forgotten mentioned are a different pantheon.

BrunoBRS.5178:

i don’t recall anywhere saying that the gods the forgotten mentioned are a different pantheon.

Interview with Jeff Grubb – World Designer and Writer for Guild Wars 2

Q Humans are an interesting wild card in the Guild Wars world. What we know is they first appeared in Cantha, the Empire of the Dragon, and the now-called human gods were very relevant to all the lore built up in Guild Wars 1. Now, with the awakening of the elder dragons and waning of the human race, the human gods are less involved in the world of Tyria. Who or what created the human race and what is their point of origin? Why do the other races seem to hold so little value in the human gods, who allegedly “created” Tyria as we know it?

A The full story of the origin of the humans has yet to be revealed. They arrived in the Tyria (the continent) sometime after they first appeared on Tyria (the world). It seems, from their previous appearances, that they have come up from the south, so the “human homeland” may be further south than Elona and Cantha. The idea of human gods “creating” Tyria is viewed by other races with mixed reactions. The charr think of it as theological propaganda (and that the human gods are not true gods, only more powerful, once-mortal, beings). The asura are perfectly willing to accept the idea of gods as (rather large) gears in the Eternal Alchemy. Norn are perfectly willing to allow the idea of gods, but think of them as a different type of their own animal spirits. The sylvari consider them unproven, since the gods have not shown their presence directly to the sylvari.

Q Which came first to the world of Tyria, the elder dragons or the human gods (current pantheon or predecessor pantheons)? Do they have any prior relationship, especially since the human gods created Glint, a dragon, to shepherd their creations?

A The Dragons, as we said, have always been here. The gods predate the humans, but not by much. Much of what we know about Glint comes from Glint herself. The truth of the matter may be very different, and she has her own reasons for saying what she has said.

What we know:

The 6 gods brought the humans to Tyria. Their age is tied to the arival of humanity.

The gods brought the Forgotten to the world 3000 years ago.

The Charr consider these the same gods (Their ancient enemies), for some reason.

The ones that brought the forgotten are referred to as the “old gods” by A-Net http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/History_of_Tyria

The Jotun recount a history of the same gods abandoning the Norn and Jotun in favor of humanity.

Working theory: The mantle of godhood has remained constant but the personalities of the pantheon have changed over time. For wwe know that godhood can be attained by non-gods.

edit: I’ll check back in a bit.

So, if a Charr had absorbed the power of Abaddon instead, would he not become a god himself?

I do want to point 1 thing out. When you mention the “old gods” mentioned in the article about the forgotten I want to make something clear. In Prophecies the gods, at 1 point in time, were called the “old gods” because of the White Mantle and their promotion of the mursaat as their “Unseen gods.” After the mursaat were found out they went to calling them the “true gods” and, eventually after Kormir, the “six gods.” So the article about the forgotten in the guild wars wiki was written around the time of prophecies, and it wasn’t until later additions were made to the game that the true gods and the Six started being used instead of the old gods. I believe that this is what you are thinking.

Now the human gods actually became very friendly with the Forgotten long before coming back into the lives of humanity. They made the Forgotten the protectors of the world that they were creating (or perhaps renovating after the last dragon devastation). Then Balthazar thought, “Well heck, let’s just let the humans conquer it all,” and a few problems began. They are just known as the human gods today, because there are very few forgotten left to claim any belief in them.

Narcemus.1348:

I do want to point 1 thing out. When you mention the “old gods” mentioned in the article about the forgotten I want to make something clear. In Prophecies the gods, at 1 point in time, were called the “old gods” because of the White Mantle and their promotion of the mursaat as their “Unseen gods.” After the mursaat were found out they went to calling them the “true gods” and, eventually after Kormir, the “six gods.” So the article about the forgotten in the guild wars wiki was written around the time of prophecies, and it wasn’t until later additions were made to the game that the true gods and the Six started being used instead of the old gods. I believe that this is what you are thinking.

It isn’t mutually exclusive. Early Christians in European countries referred to earlier pagan religions as “the Old Religion”. That term has been used many times in history for different religions through the course of time when civilizations fell.

From the wiki…
The Six Human Gods are also referred to as…

• the Six Gods (also the Five Gods when referencing the time between the Exodus and Nightfall)
• the Human Gods
• the Old Gods
• the True Gods
• the Ancient Gods
• the Ancient Ones

What’s important to remember is that the Aspects or Facets in the world of Tyria have been around a lot longer than the current pantheon. ANet has indicated that there have been other predecessor pantheons before the current one.

Now the human gods actually became very friendly with the Forgotten long before coming back into the lives of humanity. They made the Forgotten the protectors of the world that they were creating (or perhaps renovating after the last dragon devastation). Then Balthazar thought, “Well heck, let’s just let the humans conquer it all,” and a few problems began. They are just known as the human gods today, because there are very few forgotten left to claim any belief in them.

At some point prior to 786 BE, the Six Gods arrived on Tyria at the Artesian Waters in Orr from through the Mists, and later brought humanity to the world. It is said that the Six Gods brought the forgotten to the world as well, however this is now questionable given their dealings with the Elder Dragons. Regardless of their origins, the forgotten were tasked as being caretakers as the Six Gods built Arah and terraformed the land. -http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lore

I take GW2 wiki lore with a grain of salt when talking about GW1 lore. There is some shuffling of histories going on there.

We don’t know for sure that the current pantheon was not the same as the one that created the Forgotten, only that there have been multiple pantheons. You’re making a leap of faith assuming it’s a different pantheon. Grubbs quote notwithstanding, he didn’t write the original lore.

Posted in the other thread but for those only following this one i’ll repost.:

The gods themselves only predate humans by a short period of time.http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Human#History

So, in order for them to be the same gods they would have to predate the humans by multiple thousands of years in order to have brought the forgottten to Tyria.

Dustfinger.9510:

Posted in the other thread but for those only following this one i’ll repost.:

The gods themselves only predate humans by a short period of time.http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Human#History

So, in order for them to be the same gods they would have to predate the humans by multiple thousands of years in order to have brought the forgottten to Tyria.

True, and what is a “short period of time” anyway. There are inconsistencies in a lot of it, like here:

“They had been summoned by the old gods, brought to this world to be the custodians. Their task: shepherd the other creatures of the land through this time of transition, while the gods continued to create the world around them.”

And then a brief description of where the Forgotten hung out, and then bam:

“But then a new race of creatures was birthed upon the world." (humans)

The same beings are referenced as both “the old gods” and just “the gods.” And there is no indication here, as there are in other accounts, of how much time passed. And then this:

“The Gods of Tyria are the most commonly worshiped gods in Tyria. They are the beings who, in the religion of humans and other advanced races, are credited with the creation of the world of Tyria, giving magic to the races, and bestowing the Favor of the Gods. One of their titles, the Old Gods, is given because they have left the world of Tyria during the Exodus of the Gods at year 0."

So they are merely the most common gods now I guess. . Then followed shortly by:

“According to legend, the gods used to live on Tyria while they were creating it – however it is now known that while the gods used to live on Tyria, they did not create the world but simply brought humanity to Tyria at an unknown time in the past."

The lore is all over the place!! Somewhere along the line the writer’s didn’t feel the need to make everything add up perfectly and just left it.

Hence the reason for the “Same mantle, diffrent carriers” theory :P

Dustfinger.9510:

Hence the reason for the “Same mantle, diffrent carriers” theory :P

That’s the only way to keep it straight.

In short, I think there’s more than ample evidence to show that various pantheons have reigned in Tyria.

The Aspects have been embodied by various pantheons over the years.

Kuldebar.1897:

That’s the only way to keep it straight.

In short, I think there’s more than ample evidence to show that various pantheons have reigned in Tyria.

The Aspects have been embodied by various pantheons over the years.

i agree. to put it simply, we know it’s happened and it happening is the only way all the info ties together.

As a general observation, one should always be careful with taking information from the wikis unless you can check it with a primary source (or, at the very least, a primary source is cited) – it’s not always reliable.

Kuldebar.1897:

It is perfectly established that the Six Gods are linked closely in almost every way to humans:

• The near simultaneous arrival on Tyria of humans and the Gods

• The Six Human Gods are focused more on humans than other races

• Two of the Gods that we know of have blatant human origins: Grenth and Kormir

• The Six Human Gods did not immediately make themselves known to humans, the first mention is 670 years after humans settled in Cantha

• The Six Aspects of Power and the Elder Dragons existed on Tyria long before the Human Gods

• It appears that other races recognized the Six Aspects, but not necessarily the Six Gods, in their own specific cultures

Point 1: Citation, please?

Point 4: Actually, there is a legend of contact with the gods at least as early as the founding of the Canthan empire, which is only 276 years after Cantha was settled, and legends of the gods being active well before humans arrived even on Cantha. The first mention of the gods on Tyria is in fact related to the Forgotten, not humans.

Point 5: Unless that’s something on the Forgotten path in Arah, there’s actually no timeline on when the facets and aspects were created. We know that the Forgotten had a relationship with the gods going back quite a while, so it’s entirely likely that they were creater after the Forgotten made contact.

Point 6: See above, and note also that the asura attitude at least is that the gods "are important cogs in the Eternal Alchemy.

Other points you’ve raised elsewhere in the thread: Nothing I’ve seen indicates that the entire pantheon has been replaced. It’s changed, yes, but the source saying there have been previous pantheons is not one that’s credible, and even if it was it could be something as small as the replacement of Abaddon and Dhuum with Kormir and Grenth respectively (that’s technically a new pantheon, even if two thirds of the occupants are the same). While we know Grenth, Abaddon and Kormir have predecessors, Balthazar has a father, and the twinned lature of Lyss and Ilya indicates that they too have parents, there’s nothing to indicate that Dwayna or Melandru had predecessors.

Incidentally, there actually is a lore connection between Dwayna and harpies – the Elonians have a legend that harpies are former servants of Dwayna that were cast out for some crime. Unfortunately, every harpy I’ve tried to ask was more inclined to shoot or stab me than provide confirmation or denial of this legend.

For that matter, there’s also a legend that makes Melandru responsible for creating a race of plant people.

Most of these links are available in the discussion above.

• Bullet 1
  http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Human#History
• Bullet 4
  Is from the Interview with Jeff Grubb – World Designer and Writer for Guild Wars 2
  http://www.killtenrats.com/2009/09/02/guild-wars-2-interview/

and:

At some point prior to 786 BE, the Six Gods arrived on Tyria at the Artesian Waters in Orr from through the Mists, and later brought humanity to the world. It is said that the Six Gods brought the forgotten to the world as well, however this is now questionable given their dealings with the Elder Dragons. Regardless of their origins, the forgotten were tasked as being caretakers as the Six Gods built Arah and terraformed the land. -http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lore

• Bullet 5
  The facets are interesting (this is a reference to a set of quests in Eye of the North in which the player tracks down the facets of the various gods for a researching asura). They are not the gods themselves, but rather ghostly servants, and are tied to the Forgotten, who are not minions of the Elder Dragons.
  -Defining the Lore of Guild Wars 2 – A Q&A with Jeff Grubb
  http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/81024

• Bullet 6
  The idea of human gods “creating” Tyria is viewed by other races with mixed reactions. The charr think of it as theological propaganda (and that the human gods are not true gods, only more powerful, once-mortal, beings). The asura are perfectly willing to accept the idea of gods as (rather large) gears in the Eternal Alchemy. Norn are perfectly willing to allow the idea of gods, but think of them as a different type of their own animal spirits. The sylvari consider them unproven, since the gods have not shown their presence directly to the sylvari.
  -http://www.killtenrats.com/2009/09/02/guild-wars-2-interview/

I maintain what ANet has already confirmed, there have been predecessor pantheons, so facets would reflect the Aspects of Power even though the Gods may change. Replacing one or two members is not making a new pantheon, the current pantheon is human based.

As for Dwayna, she very early tried to make for peaceful relations between humans and the Tyrian Races, additionally her Aspect would naturally be attuned to Harpies, things of feathers and sky.

The Aspects are each embodied by the Gods in the pantheon, but the pantheon is not eternal.

I have always wondered personally, and I haven’t explored Cursed Shore yet (only thing missing), but I read Orrian scrolls on all the gods and how they came to Tyria, but there was no scroll on Dhuum. There was even a scroll on Abaddon coming to Tyria, but not Dhuum. This makes me wonder if Dhuum came to Tyria at all, or if perhaps Dhuum was always tied to Tyria. I mean if you think about the god of death, perhaps he is not a god persay, but rather the physical embodiment of death in Tyria.

Anyways, I think it makes sense that Lyssa, Dwayna, and Melandru don’t have any lore connecting them to their predecessors. I mean can you really see the goddess of peace and harmony killing the last god of that for their powers? And Melandru may be original from any preceding pantheons, being the oldest of all the gods. Then Lyssa, she just doesn’t seem like the type to kill her parents :P

Narcemus.1348:

I have always wondered personally, and I haven’t explored Cursed Shore yet (only thing missing), but I read Orrian scrolls on all the gods and how they came to Tyria, but there was no scroll on Dhuum. There was even a scroll on Abaddon coming to Tyria, but not Dhuum. This makes me wonder if Dhuum came to Tyria at all, or if perhaps Dhuum was always tied to Tyria. I mean if you think about the god of death, perhaps he is not a god persay, but rather the physical embodiment of death in Tyria.

Anyways, I think it makes sense that Lyssa, Dwayna, and Melandru don’t have any lore connecting them to their predecessors. I mean can you really see the goddess of peace and harmony killing the last god of that for their powers? And Melandru may be original from any preceding pantheons, being the oldest of all the gods. Then Lyssa, she just doesn’t seem like the type to kill her parents :P

Kind of makes you wonder about the lore behind Abaddon’s predecessor, Arachnia as well. =3

^ arachnia technically isn’t canon, since anything related to it can only be found through datamining.

Yeah, I personally like to believe that Abaddon was a huntsman. I mean it is known that Abaddon had the power of two gods at least, it is stated that he could have taken on two gods, but not the combined might of the 5, and so it makes sense that perhaps Abaddon was a god that went around and hunted godlike beings for their powers. This could, perhaps, be the reason for the way the realm of torment looked (entirely speculation). I also like to believe that Arachnia was kinda like the “fate” of tyria, much like greek mythology. This would be how Abaddon acquired all of his knowledge. But this is entirely just my mind imagining how things could have been.

Sadly though everything about these insectoid godlike beings is not canon, so it’s just a dream really.

Kuldebar.1897:

Most of these links are available in the discussion above.

• Bullet 1
  http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Human#History
• Bullet 4
  Is from the Interview with Jeff Grubb – World Designer and Writer for Guild Wars 2
  http://www.killtenrats.com/2009/09/02/guild-wars-2-interview/

and:

At some point prior to 786 BE, the Six Gods arrived on Tyria at the Artesian Waters in Orr from through the Mists, and later brought humanity to the world. It is said that the Six Gods brought the forgotten to the world as well, however this is now questionable given their dealings with the Elder Dragons. Regardless of their origins, the forgotten were tasked as being caretakers as the Six Gods built Arah and terraformed the land. -http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lore

• Bullet 5
  The facets are interesting (this is a reference to a set of quests in Eye of the North in which the player tracks down the facets of the various gods for a researching asura). They are not the gods themselves, but rather ghostly servants, and are tied to the Forgotten, who are not minions of the Elder Dragons.
  -Defining the Lore of Guild Wars 2 – A Q&A with Jeff Grubb
  http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/81024

• Bullet 6
  The idea of human gods “creating” Tyria is viewed by other races with mixed reactions. The charr think of it as theological propaganda (and that the human gods are not true gods, only more powerful, once-mortal, beings). The asura are perfectly willing to accept the idea of gods as (rather large) gears in the Eternal Alchemy. Norn are perfectly willing to allow the idea of gods, but think of them as a different type of their own animal spirits. The sylvari consider them unproven, since the gods have not shown their presence directly to the sylvari.
  -http://www.killtenrats.com/2009/09/02/guild-wars-2-interview/

I maintain what ANet has already confirmed, there have been predecessor pantheons, so facets would reflect the Aspects of Power even though the Gods may change. Replacing one or two members is not making a new pantheon, the current pantheon is human based.

As for Dwayna, she very early tried to make for peaceful relations between humans and the Tyrian Races, additionally her Aspect would naturally be attuned to Harpies, things of feathers and sky.

The Aspects are each embodied by the Gods in the pantheon, but the pantheon is not eternal.

None of your links and quotes say what you claim they do. The wiki article is not a primary source, although I do know where the “the gods predate humans, but not by much” line comes from – and neither source says this is Tyria-specific as opposed to humans being nearly as old as the gods in the Guild Wars multiverse as a whole.

The quote you cite for Bullet 5 does not say that the facets predate the gods, just that they are “ghostly servants, and are tied to the Forgotten”. While the Forgotten predate the gods on Tyria, that does not mean that everything connected to the Forgotten predates the gods, and we know that the gods and the Forgotten came to an arrangement, possibly before the gods arrived on Tyria. There are a lot of possible explanations for the facets that keep them related to the current generation of gods – for instance, they could be avatars used by the gods to communicate with the Forgotten, or simply guardians of significant locations.

And the quotation you cite for Bullet 6 is talking about the current generation, not some nebulous concept of aspects of power.

Also, where is your source for there being previous pantheons that makes you so sure that they’re talking about the entire group being replaced, and not simply that there are changes in the pantheon that means it’s not the same as it was? (In fact, come to think on it, I can’t recall ArenaNet ever using ‘pantheon’ with respect to the gods themselves – that’s come from the fans as a convenient way of discussing them.) Considering, in fact, that changes in the pantheon also tend to involve some reshuffling of responsibilities, this might in fact be another means of invalidating your idea of the facets and aspects being some eternal thing that predates the current generation. In fact, comparing between the Prophecies aspects and the EOTN facets might even lead to the conclusion that your supposedly eternal facets have been changing to reflect changes in the pantheon – as far as we know Abaddon never represented Spirit, but after Kormir’s ascension we no longer see the elementalist Facet and instead there’s the Facet of Spirit that clearly represents Kormir.

You’ve also completely missed the significance of the harpy legend. If it’s true, the harpies aren’t another race that Dwayna reached out to – they, like humans, are only here because of the gods.

draxynnic.3719:

None of your links and quotes say what you claim they do. The wiki article is not a primary source.

If you don’t consider Jeff Grubb – World Designer and Writer for Guild Wars 2 and the Official Wiki vetted by ANet and the Community to be a primary source, then there’s really not much to discuss.

draxynnic.3719:

Bullet 5 does not say that the facets predate the gods, just that they are “ghostly servants, and are tied to the Forgotten”.

Bullet 5 says exactly what it says it says: the Forgotten predate the Human Gods, therefore they predate the current pantheon of Gods which are the Human Gods.

draxynnic.3719:

And the quotation you cite for Bullet 6 is talking about the current generation, not some nebulous concept of aspects of power.

Bullet 6 underscores the racial opinions of the Gods, showing that most races don’t come close to attaching themselves to the Gods as humans do. It also shows that all races accept the Aspects of Power that the Gods represent, with the notable exception of the Sylvari due to the reasons given.

draxynnic.3719:

Other points you’ve raised elsewhere in the thread: Nothing I’ve seen indicates that the entire pantheon has been replaced

I don’t see how you can conclude that. There are Six Human Gods that arrived with humanity, the Forgotten were already here before the Six Human Gods.

It’s rather clear.

And, I think all the races on Tyria were brought there by the Gods, just not the Six Human Gods, other Pantheons that represented the Aspects in earlier times.

The Aspects remain constant even when the individual Gods that represent them are replaced.

I’m not saying that Jeff isn’t a primary source. I’m saying you’re reading things in what he’s said that he didn’t actually say.

As for Bullets 5 and 6: Yes, the Forgotten presence on Tyria predates the arrival of the gods on Tyria (the quotation regarding the age of the gods is fairly coy in that it doesn’t actually define how old humanity or the gods are outside of Tyria, especially since we know both are aliens – for all we know, gods and humanity both predate Tyria entirely). However, you seem to be assuming that just because the facets are tied to the Forgotten means that they are as old as the Forgotten.

That’s not necessarily the case. We know that the Forgotten had a close relationship with the gods – it is entirely likely, and I think more likely, that the facets were created after the arrival of the gods and are thus reflections of them, rather than your insistence that it is the facets that are eternal (didn’t we kill eighteen of them in GW1?) and the gods are simply reflections of the facets.

For the last, I don’t see how what you said shows that the entire pantheon has been replaced. The line you keep quoting from the wiki is a) possibly misinterpreted, and b) the wiki is not a primary source because anyone can edit it (I could go right now and edit it to say that the gods arrived in 1769BE, and I do have reason to think that might be the correct date, but just because it’s written in the wiki doesn’t mean it’s true) – for the purposes of scholarly discussion, wikis are not valid as primary sources. You need to find the primary source, and in having been studying GW lore since before GW2 was announced I don’t recall anything that specifically says that the pantheon has been replaced. We know that it has changed, but whoever posted on the wiki could just have been thinking that the current pantheon is not the same as the pantheon that first arrived on Tyria (which it isn’t, even if the majority of the members are the same).

There is evidence that older races have religions that don’t line up with the Six, but they don’t line up nicely with the facets either, and may be entirely seperate entities rather than predecessors of the current deities – for instance, the kodan would probably not respond well to a suggestion that Koda has been replaced by Dwayna and/or Melandru, and would instead posit that the Six are subordinates of Koda, used as intermediaries for races that are not spiritually advanced enough to speak to Koda directly.

@draxynnic

Nice post, I’m glad you pointed out the inherent flaws in wiki, and all wiki’s for that matter. And I appreciate your scholarly take on lore gathering. My question is, since we know the wiki to be unreliable, what sources, other than playing the actual game, can we look to for legitimate source material?

^ the wiki is valid, when the segments are sourced. if there’s no source, it’s as good as nothing.

a good example of something that should be ignored is the wiki page on the deep sea dragon, which has hardly any sources, and makes up a ton of stuff.

BrunoBRS.5178:

^ arachnia technically isn’t canon, since anything related to it can only be found through datamining.

But you can find broken statues of her in the realm of tormeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeent.

Did you notice how the Sylvari are a brand new race whose eldest members are only 25 years old? If any race in the game would have been a great alien candidate it was these guys due to how new they are, but Anet avoided the whole alien thing by a magical tree making plant people, or something.

The most alien race in technological advancement and looks would have to be the Asura, but they’re from the planet itself.

Agemnon.4608:

…but Anet avoided the whole alien thing by a magical tree making plant people, or something.

Except ANet has already told us that humans were brought to the world of Tyria, so by definition alone, we know that humans are alien, not indigenous to the world of Tyria.

We also have a good reason to believe that humans originate from a planet called “Earth” that can be reached via traveling through the Mists.

RAWR.4273:

BrunoBRS.5178:

^ arachnia technically isn’t canon, since anything related to it can only be found through datamining.

But you can find broken statues of her in the realm of tormeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeent.

But the name, and lore behind Arachnia comes entirely out of datamining, and is never mentioned by in game characters.