Guild Wars 2

Posing The Question
Where do sylvari come from? Are we to believe that they are indeed the newest race to come to Tyria? What if, rather than being the newest race, they were eventually revealed to be one of the oldest?
If they are, the implications could be staggering. It’s not just that there are other trees out there, but that they are unlikely to number more than a few. Moreover, if the Pale Tree is herself a child of another tree, it suggests that her mother may still be alive.
As you are no doubt aware, in my excitement I overlooked a minor detail about the Pale Tree – she is an oak tree (as per “The Movement Of The World”). In my opinion this is a very significant fact, especially because it reveals that she produces (among other things, such as sylvan hounds) acorns (henceforth referred to as sylvari).
Anyone familiar with oak trees, particularly white oaks (upon which the Pale Tree has probably been modeled) knows that it can take many years for a tree to produce it’s first mast. In the case of the Pale Tree, it took over two-hundred and twenty-five years for her to produce her first mast of twelve. Just as importantly, of the many seeds that may follow a tree’s first mast, only a small percentage will ever actually become trees. According to “Acorns: The Inside Story” (you can find this article by performing a generic Google search – I am assuming the information presented in it is accurate) the likelihood of an oak’s seed successfully germinating into a tree is about one-in-ten-thousand.
But if the odds of any one of the Pale Tree’s seeds developing into a tree are so low, what does that mean for the seeds that Ronan found in a cave? Were they all destined to become trees? If the accuracy of development’s modeling extends to seemingly trivial matters such as the likelihood of a seed becoming a tree, it would mean that – statistically speaking – few if any of the other seeds from which the Pale Tree was taken would develop into trees. Indeed, it is entirely possible that none of the other seeds ever matured.
Which brings me to an important point: the Pale Tree may have been produced by another, much older tree – namely, her mother.

It’s A Magical World
But Tyria is magical. More than that, it seems somewhat absurd to try to explain magical phenomenon using real-life models. This is a good point and I invite everyone to consider how relevant this approach is, especially in this case.

How Long Can Oaks Live For?
In the real world, oaks can live for a very long time. North Americans may be familiar with the Pechanga Great Oak Tree, the Angel Oak, and the Seven Sisters Oak, all estimated to be between one-thousand and two-thousand years old. I’m sure that you’d agree – if the real world can produce such ancient trees, how much more so the magical world of Tyria! Just consider the age of the Pale Tree – she is now over two-hundred-and-fifty years of age!

A Fist-sized Seed
Still, one puzzling detail remains. If the seeds that Ronan found were produced by a tree much older than the Pale Tree, why did he find one that was the size of a human man’s fist? After all, wouldn’t he instead stumble upon fully-formed sylvari? It is said that Ronan did encounter terrible plant creatures, so it is possible that he did find sylvari. Not everyone is satisfied with this idea. You might envision Nightmare sylvari as terrible plant creatures, but the same cannot be said for Dream sylvari. Furthermore, Malyck – a sylvari believed to originate from the same region (considered by many lore-enthusiasts to be Magus Falls) as the Pale Tree, is nowhere-near as vicious as members of the Nightmare Court. Thus, if Ronan did encounter sylvari – even sylvari like Malyck – it seems a bit far-fetched to describe them as terrible plant creatures. Or does it?
Ronan was a man of war prior to his return to Arbor Bay. It was only after his return, following the loss of his family to the mursaat, that the Shining Blade soldier sheathed his sword. Given that he was a warrior, it seems reasonable to conclude that he would not be squeamish about using force, especially against non-humans. Additionally, Ronan was essentially snatching the progeny of a sentient race from them. If a charr entered a human’s home and stole it’s baby, do you think that the human would behave peacefully, especially when opposed by a member of a race trained to be violent? Do you think that if the charr killed the human and escaped with it’s baby, it would tell it’s fellows that the human was not somehow terrible? In short, Ronan behaved like a warrior whilst he was on patrol. Anything he found that resisted him that was not human was as likely to feel an edge of metal as assuredly as any member of the White Mantle, be they human, mursaat or otherwise. Likewise, sylvari living in the wild, unfamiliar with other races, would be just as inclined to respond to the encroachment of outsiders with force.
Malyck is often used to help demonstrate that sylvari are not terrible plant creatures by nature. But don’t be so sure. Malyck has much more in common with Caderyn than we realize. They both think similarly – a very logical, emotionless form of thinking unique to sylvari, who are only a shade of those after whom they have been modeled (humans). But whereas Caderyn rebelled as a result of the Tablet, Malyck, who has never had to choose between his love for sylvari and his duty to a Dream (a crisis portrayed in the standoff between Caderyn and Aife over the fate of krait young), does not suffer from the same kind of inner conflicts, making the similarities between the two sylvari easy to miss.
Finally, consider that because Malyck was never forced to interact with anyone other than his own kind, we (players) never got to see his true nature. For the real nature of a sylvari can only truly be observed when they interact with other races (consider, once again, that Caderyn’s nature was revealed as a result of his proposal about how to treat members of other races (such as the krait)). And this may be significant in Malyck’s case. Why? He is wearing human clothing. This suggests that he got it from the Wardens. But the Wardens are sylvari – they can grow their own clothes, they don’t need to steal them. Furthermore, they would be unlikely to give Malyck any when he too is sylvari. Instead, they would teach him to grow his own clothes, just as they could. No, this minor detail is a strong indication that Malyck may be less than receptive to other races, particularly humans.

Returning to the matter of the seed’s size, we find ourselves asking the question: Why would you find such a seed in a cave if it is nowhere-near as big as it should be if it were a sylvari pod? The answer may lie in the short story “What Scarlet Saw”. In this story it is said that Ceara witnesses the life-cycle of sylvari bound through the Pale Tree to the Dream:

“[Ceara]…saw a vague, glowing shape ahead. A tree, she thought…the Pale Tree. Its great off-white trunk connected a broad network of branches and leaves to a root system below. Instead of nuts or berries beneath its leaves, there were sylvari. Thousands of her people hung from the tree’s boughs like ripe fruit ready to fall. Their bodies did not move, but their eyes shifted and rolled, eagerly taking in their surroundings.
Some dropped like autumn leaves, slowly drifting down to root level. There they stood, stretched, and then set out into the void, disappearing as they cleared the spreading canopy. Some never made it that far, staggering, falling, and withering within the shade of the great tree.”
Ceara witnessed the deaths of countless sylvari as they struggled to emerge from beneath the boughs of the Pale Tree. Although it is not openly stated, it seems safe to assume that many more sylvari never make it out of their pods. Indeed, some of the Pale Tree’s fruit may fall from her branches long before it reaches maturity. Examples of said fruit (sylvari) would be smaller than normal; some might even be the size of a human man’s fist. It is this possibility that I would like to propose: The Pale Tree’s seed dropped from a much older tree – her mother – before she could fully form. The only reason she survived is because Ronan and Ventari nurtured her into the tree that she became. If this is the case, it is no wonder that the Pale Tree clings so ardently to the tenets of the Tablet.

Malyck: Speculation On Origins
Malyck may not be the progeny of the Pale Tree’s sibling, but her mother. Why? Consider that the Pale Tree produces sylvari for the next five-hundred years and you have your answer. All things considered, Malyck is more likely to be the product of a parent tree than a sibling tree.

Why Haven’t We Seen This Other Tree?
If such a tree is out there, it must be big. Why haven’t we seen it? I have several points to make about this topic, as it constitutes a strong counter to the body of my presentation.
To begin, it is possible that the region of Tyria in which the Pale Tree’s parent lives is as yet uncharted. Certainly, players could journey to The Falls during the events of Guild Wars 1. But the tree probably doesn’t live immediately atop the water. Although Malyck is widely believed to have been delivered by a subterranean watercourse running east from The Falls, he is the only one to ever have done so, suggesting that his is an isolated case. Furthermore, it is reasonable to assume that as Malyck’s mother grew larger (over the curse of two-hundred-and-fifty years) some of her boughs overhung a waterway; previously, they would not have been observed by travelers through the area.
Second, Caithe relates to players that when the sylvari were young, only she and Faolain ventured away from the Pale Tree – the other firstborn remained at the tree’s base. Furthermore, a strong argument can be formed in favor of the idea that it is the Dream that has driven sylvari away from their mother’s trunk and into greater Tyria. In other words, if the mother of the Pale Tree is not burdened by a Dream, she has no real reason to dispatch her other children into Tyria. Like so many other races, she and her children remain xenophobikittenil necessity drives them to migration and integration. It is entirely possible that the rise of Mordremoth will provide the ancient tree with just such an incentive.
Perhaps, with Season Two commencing in a fortnight, we will finally get some answers.

The Pale Tree is only visible from within Caledon Forest, so there’s absolutely no reason we should be able to see this other tree given how much of the Maguuma we don’t have access to in GW2 (that we did in GW1).

Ask Ronan and Ventari :p

Scale is an odd thing in MMOs. The pale tree is big relative to player models but the zone is actually really small by the same measure.

You can walk across the forest in an hour. So the tree seems even bigger by comparison.

But you can’t take in-game scale and think of it as being “real”. Otherwise Tyria would be a really really really small world. Armies could walk around the world in a day. Sailing to the other side of the world would be an afternoon boat trip.

If we assume Tyria is the same size as Earth (and a lot of it unexplored) then there’s plenty of room to hide thousands of pale trees. Even a thousand foot tall tree would not be visible from a long distance, especially in a hilly forest.

Actually the land masses we have seen of Tyria are not the whole world, not even close. We have no idea how big it is, there is a texture map that shows what we can see of Tyria to be a teeny tiny fragment, but the Dev’s have stated that it is just a texture and can’t be taken as official. So unless the dev’s specifically stated that the scale was altered then you can’t state that. What I would point out is that we are able to run full speed everywhere, in real life a person couldn’t maintain that speed for very long, so the seemingly small distances in game would actually seem realistically long if you were to walk them.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

What I would point out is that we are able to run full speed everywhere, in real life a person couldn’t maintain that speed for very long, so the seemingly small distances in game would actually seem realistically long if you were to walk them.

No, they don’t. When your character is walking, it only takes four hours to get from eastern Blazeridge to western Brisban. Even scaling it to the in-game day/night cycle, that would mean the entire explorable continent could be walked across in 48 hours.

I’ll comment on the OP some other time, but as a quick note:

We do actually have some information suggesting how large the world is in lore terms. In Ghosts of Ascalon, for instance, it takes a day’s travel from Ebonhawke to Loreclaw Expanse, and that’s taking a shortcut that isn’t available to players (ingame you can’t go anywhere from Killeen’s grave except back over the Brand, while in the book they clearly do). In the original Prophecies, the refugees have to rest the night at Krok’s Hollow before moving on towards the Frost Gate.

Even taking into account that the GoA group was probably not taking the easiest route due to dodging patrols, it’s probably reasonable to estimate that the length of a typical zone represents roughly a day’s travel – which, according to D&D, is roughly 25 miles. Even by this fairly conservative measure, the width of Tyria from Rata Sum to Mithric Cliffs is less than two hundred miles – so by this measure the width of the explorable ‘continent’ of Tyria is less than the east-west extent of the island of Great Britain.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

The Pale Tree is only visible from within Caledon Forest, so there’s absolutely no reason we should be able to see this other tree given how much of the Maguuma we don’t have access to in GW2 (that we did in GW1).

This is less an issue of the Pale Tree being small, and more to the fact that each zone is its own isolated map.

Aerin says that he suspects one could see the Pale Tree from Labyrinthine Cliffs (mind you, high high up) on a clear day. The fact we cannot see it in Metrica says nothing, really.

Wanderer.3248:

Scale is an odd thing in MMOs. The pale tree is big relative to player models but the zone is actually really small by the same measure.

You can walk across the forest in an hour. So the tree seems even bigger by comparison.

But you can’t take in-game scale and think of it as being “real”. Otherwise Tyria would be a really really really small world. Armies could walk around the world in a day. Sailing to the other side of the world would be an afternoon boat trip.

If we assume Tyria is the same size as Earth (and a lot of it unexplored) then there’s plenty of room to hide thousands of pale trees. Even a thousand foot tall tree would not be visible from a long distance, especially in a hilly forest.

The continent of Tyria is less than 1/16th of the full world. This said, though, it is accurate to say that the scale of the open world is not proper scaling. In Ghosts of Ascalon, active movement from Ebonhawke to Ascalon City – in a direct route through the Secluded Glen directly to Ascalon Basin (in other words, shorter route than what we, players, have access to) takes about 3 days and 2 nights iirc (they reached the Dragonbrand during day 2 of that travel (as they had camped one night in canyons with Killeen still alive), and day 3 was slowed by Rytlock’s accompanying, iirc; and they reached Ascalon City near the end of the third or fourth day, making them camp again outside the city – though I may be misremembering as it’s been a while since I read the novel).

But going the long route, we players can do that in less than 30 minutes with speed boosts – and still close to such without speed boosts. If one were to take the scaling of the world (and speed of the characters) to be proportionally accurate with the speed of the day/night cycle, the game’s speed is still not even half of the book’s speed.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

So unless the dev’s specifically stated that the scale was altered then you can’t state that.

We don’t need a dev stating such, since we can see the difference in scaling ourselves.

Ascalonian Catacombs, Twilight Arbor, Honor of the Waves, and Crucible of Eternity dungeons, for example, have their dungeon variants being far bigger (some twice as large) as their open world variant. Caduecus’ Manor and Arah are scaled to the open world however.

Then there’s the example provided above in which fast movement in Ghosts of Ascalon takes exceedingly far longer than what we can experience in-game.

Honor of the Waves is by far the clearest example – the others you could, if you were so inclined, write off as being underground and posit that maybe they actually do spread out across a similar space as an open world zone underground, but in the case of HotW we can map the extent of the sanctuary in the open world from all directions, including directly underneath. We know how big it is in the open world, and how big it is when you’re inside the dungeon – and these are definitely not the same.

The others couldn’t, as for CoE the labs are meant to be under the zones of the same color lorewise, and with AC the two Foefire’s Heart places are meant to line up (lorewise the PoI is that tunnel Dougal climbed down, I believe, why Magdaer is down there Idk in all honesty unless the spell crashed it through the ground which would explain the hole with the light and the name), but the spot of the sword in AC is underneath Iron Marches (and, oddly, with a ceiling – most likely an oversight there).

Joy’s End is also somewhat underground and Twilight Arbor views the sky, but Joy’s End is on an incline, higher than TA. Thus cannot work together. Especially now that TA has an airport.

Whatever the distance is, it’s unlikely to be visible.

With line of sight, on a very clear sunny day, visibility of a large object against a highly contrasting background could be at most 100 km.

But unless you stood on top of a medium sized mountain you can’t see that far because the horizon gets in the way, even assuming that this other pale tree isn’t hidden behind hills or other obstructions.

And given that this other tree will be a green tree against a green background, in a hilly area with high humidity, chances are you couldn’t see it unless you were practically standing next to it.

Well, actually, it’s likely to be a white-and-pink tree against a blue background, looking at our precedent.