The Relationship between Dragons and Magic
I would have to disagree a bit. The Elder Dragons do not “destroy” magic, they merely consume. So in your instance they would be more like large sponges. So either you have sponges that max out and become ineffective at stemming the tide, or you have sponges that continue to grow to meet the needs which means they become more and more dangerous the longer they exist.
But either way, it was recently explained a bit differently by Angel McCoy. The Elder Dragons are like sponges, as I proposed and they suck up magic, go to sleep, and while they sleep the magic seeps back out into the world. Because of this, the magic level (aka bathtub) always seems to be the same, the difference lies in whether the magic (aka water) is located within the dragons (aka sponges) or has seeped back out into the world.
This line of thought has already been more or less confirmed. The Elder Dragons balance magic in the world. Though not quite how you hypothesized.
See here.
The question that remains though, is whether magic is constantly being added to the world – according to the interview talked about in the link above, the Elder Dragons consume magic while active, but produce magic while hibernating. Which means two things:
- Elder Dragons have to consciously corrupt. Otherwise it’s just run-of-the-mill magic that anyone can use to no bad effect.
- The magic levels may remain static if the Elder Dragons are all killed.
The first point is a confirmation. The second point is an implication. With the second point, it mainly depends on whether or not the Elder Dragons’ consumption and production of magic are equal – that they release the same amount of magic that they consumed before hibernation. If it isn’t – and depending on which way it isn’t (more likely to be a case of releasing less than consuming) – then there’s multiple scenarios that can play out.
The questions that remain in the end are thus:
- Why/When/How were the Elder Dragons originally made.
- Does the levels of magic change if the Elder Dragons are taken out of the equation, and if so how?
- What happens if levels of magic get too high? Too low (other than sending the ED to sleep)?
- Do the Elder Dragons have ulterior motives other than just the consumption of magic? Lines from the minions (from EoD, SoS, and personal story) all imply yes.
Edit: Ninja’d by Narcemus.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
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Thank you for pointing me to that thread — believe it or not, I hadn’t read the interview or the thread before posting.
This leads me to the thought of conservation of energy — Miss Angel McCoy all but states that the energy isn’t consumed or produced, merely… stored… for a time.
Regardless, magic is absorbed and released by the dragons at different times. In answer to the four points at the end of your post, Konig:
1) Right now, we could say that the dragons are as old as the world, created to maintain magical balance, and created by the same force that created Tyrian magic.
2) It’s possible that killing a sleeping Elder Dragon will permanently lower magic levels, depending on how long it had been since it last ate. It’s equally as likely that energy will be released from the corpse, either as an explosion or as a slow leak equal to the rate of leakage while the dragon was hibernating. Conservation of energy suggests to me that the energy will be released, and the overall difference between magic levels at the beginning of hibernation and the end will decrease, stabilizing the magic supply.
3) Magic levels getting too high -> possibly poisons the world. Too low -> everything ‘starves’ for lack of magic. Like how water is good for us, but too much can kill.
4) The ulterior motives? If not present at the moment, they’ll be retconned in. The Risen, at least, seem intelligent. If they were created by an unintelligent being, wouldn’t they be dumb as rocks? World domination is apparently a popular pastime amongst villains, but I can’t imagine why a couple of giant dragons would care about taking over the world…
Answering Questions about how magic works and how the Dragons play into it seems really hard, because we don’t know all rules magic has to follow (Do we even know one?). We know a few things that affected magic or were affected by magic, but again, we don’t know why or how that stuff worked the way it did.
Would be interessting to know if the overall amount of magic on the world is always the same, just stored in different forms or if magic can be used up and needs to be replaced. If it has to be replaced, does the planet produce magic or does it seep in from the mists? And can magic get carried to/away from Tyria by creatures that can leave the planet and travel the mists, like the gods for example?
I would go with the use up and replace option. Even if “use up” only means that the magic that was used for a spell gets turned into an unusable for magic form or leaves the planet (like heat).
Low Magic Levels don’t seem to pose much of a problem besides creatures beeing unable to use magic (i guess) and beeing born without a knack for magic.
High Magic Levels might not be dangerous as well. At least not in the “everything explodes” kind of sense. Of course i can’t be certain, but we have a few cases where concentrated magic seems to be involved. The effects are probably similar.
I could be wrong about some of the following or messed up information, so feel free to point out any mistakes.
Cases where Magic was concentrated in an unnatural way (collected by someone/something)
- Abaddons Death: His power was going to run amok and cause serious damage. But what exactly was going to explode there? Maybe it was the stuff that made him into a god in the first place, but as far as i can tell, most people seem to agree, that that “spark of godhood” or what you want to call it probably can’t be destroyed, so i guess it would not turn into an explosion. I think a part of that power was the magic that he stored inside of him, as all Gods do, so that they can use Magic, even if they land in a place where there is no freely available magic, so that they can use their own magic they are used to. Of course, maybe the gods simply access the magic inside the mists directly and don’t need access to local magic on Tyria. Anyway: concentrated amount of magic —> boundary fails --> big explosion
- Spellcasters that collect too much magic/ too different kinds of magic: (I think this was mentioned in the topic about the Angel McCoy Interview) If a spellcaster does that, it is very likely that he can’t control it and all that magic blows up. So again: concentrated amount of magic —> boundary fails --> big explosion
- Asura Reactors: Asura seem to love to do experiments with magic and collect large amounts of it while doing so. Well, we know what happend to Thaumanova in the end: concentrated amount of magic —> boundary fails --> big explosion
Even if i’m wrong about all of this, it seems most of the time when someone/something works with magic and something goes wrong it explodes.
On the other hand, i can’t remember any mention of random explosions occuring around the world, so i would assume that magic does not concentrate in such a dangerous form naturally. Of course, it could be that a very high magic level creates so much pressure, that magic has to mix in dangerous ways, but right now, i doubt it.
Cases where Magic concentrated in a natural way
- Natural forming elementals: A concentration of magic can cause the creation of elementals. And they also attack people or you could say those that are not similar to them. So they are either very aggressive or they act on instinct to defend nature/their home. So concentrated amount of magic —> (dangerous) elemental/ creature gets created
- The Mists spawns creatures: I’m not sure if this is caused by magic, but i guess the mists are full of magic. But the mists are different from a world like Tyria, so this one could be something else, but the process seems similar. We know demons are created by the mists and we also know that those demons are not very kind guys. At least during GW1 they only appeared as enemys, except for Razah (who is also a creature of the mists). So concentrated amount of magic --> (dangerous) creature gets created
Maybe thats the way elder Dragons were created (I believe this idea came up in a few other topics). The Magic level was so high, that it formed very big creatures/elementals. And then they acted on instinct to use up and store magic. Or the Elder Dragons were the only ones that were able to survive while the other creatures that were created that way died. Thats how Nature works, right? Things get created randomly and what survives workes. So their corruption could be just a very expensive spell to turn all into something similar to them to use up more magic. The rest of their personality could have formed over time or got influenced by whatever element/stuff that was around when they were formed. Of course, one problem with this could be the star connection the Jotun observed. But we don’t know how that works and it could also be false/incomplete information.
So killing Dragons might not destroy the world, but it could mean that new dragons will form with time or something similar to them.
What if the Elder Dragons are actually related to imps, like imps absorbed tons of magic over millenia and eventualy became the Elder Dragons? Shadow imps=Zaithan, Ice imps=Jormag, Fire imps=Primordus. No clues as to a connection for Kralkatorik, Bubbles, and Mordremoth. Also I’m not saying that imps are dragon minions, but that they can become dragons.
1) Right now, we could say that the dragons are as old as the world, created to maintain magical balance, and created by the same force that created Tyrian magic.
This makes little logical sense.
Why would world-destroying and altering beings be made simultaneous with the world? Granted it depends on how the world was built, but it seems unlikely. Especially since the Elder Dragons are not the only beings that consume magic. See: demons (of which imps are included) and possibly elementals (they’re at least formed from magical concentrations).
2) It’s possible that killing a sleeping Elder Dragon will permanently lower magic levels, depending on how long it had been since it last ate. It’s equally as likely that energy will be released from the corpse, either as an explosion or as a slow leak equal to the rate of leakage while the dragon was hibernating. Conservation of energy suggests to me that the energy will be released, and the overall difference between magic levels at the beginning of hibernation and the end will decrease, stabilizing the magic supply.
Zhaitan was killed, no explosion. Glint’s corpse is said to have a lot of magic in it, no explosion either but rather slowly leaked. Zhaitan’s case is likely similar to Glint’s.
Still, it’d likely be much slower than hibernation, as it’d be little different than a very magical artifact at that point – like the Bloodstone.
3) Magic levels getting too high -> possibly poisons the world. Too low -> everything ‘starves’ for lack of magic. Like how water is good for us, but too much can kill.
Unlikely. We’ve seen what magical concentration can do:
It makes elementals. Which is effectively “makes the elements of the world sentient, if not sapient.”
The only case of high magic being deadly would be when it’s used in a very destructive manner – e.g., Cataclysm, Jade Wind, Searing. But these are all artificial damages of high magical concentration.
As for low magic – that’s the state the world is in whenever the Elder Dragons go into hibernation. Given how that’s also the state the world was in when the jotun, dwarves, seers, forgotten, djinn, and karka (with others as possibilities) survived the last Elder Dragon rise, and no mention of damage to them other than loss of magical use in their society, it seems unlikely that low magic in the world results in anything but “people cannot use magic.”
4) The ulterior motives? If not present at the moment, they’ll be retconned in. The Risen, at least, seem intelligent. If they were created by an unintelligent being, wouldn’t they be dumb as rocks? World domination is apparently a popular pastime amongst villains, but I can’t imagine why a couple of giant dragons would care about taking over the world…
As I said, there are motives hinted at in the game already. Risen being the most known case thanks to the focus on them, but Icebrood, Branded, and yes even Destroyers are not exempt. Not all motives are mentioned merely by the words, but by their actions as well.
Zhaitan seems to seek immortality – and ruling the world.
Jormag seems to seek to rule those who desire strength (and give them strength to rule them).
Kralkatorrik seems to want to corrupt anything it can, and destroy the rest – effectively making itself the only being (as the Branded are effectively just extensions of itself due to the mental ties).
Primordus’ minions have only seen killing, with the stated intention of the Great Destroyer to be wiping out the surface world to make way for Primordus (which seems to be a case of Primordus going “I don’t need creatures of flesh and blood to corrupt”).
Zhaitan wanting to take over the world – per the words of Captain Whiting in Sea of Sorrows – along with these other odd actions indicate that the Elder Dragons are more than just mere magic managers.
-more in next post-
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Cases where Magic concentrated in a natural way
[…]
- The Mists spawns creatures: I’m not sure if this is caused by magic, but i guess the mists are full of magic. But the mists are different from a world like Tyria, so this one could be something else, but the process seems similar. We know demons are created by the mists and we also know that those demons are not very kind guys. At least during GW1 they only appeared as enemys, except for Razah (who is also a creature of the mists). So concentrated amount of magic —> (dangerous) creature gets created
Technically, demons are spawned by the Mists themselves. Specifically within corrupted shards of existence that have been tainted by “maligant forces” – this is what the Dreadspawn Maw is according to Raukus and an Adept of Whispers – the only other demon-spawning place we know of is the aptly named Spawning Pools which is simply described as a place where nightmares from dreams are born.
Since we don’t know how the Mists work, we cannot really call the protomatter that the Mists is made up of as being the same as magic. The Mists merely creates via copying, and connects all time and space, as well as acting as where the souls of the dead go. It’s a 3-in-1 place, but nothing has really been said to be a case of “the Mists is magic!” as far as I know, let alone magical concentrations.
Maybe thats the way elder Dragons were created (I believe this idea came up in a few other topics). The Magic level was so high, that it formed very big creatures/elementals. And then they acted on instinct to use up and store magic. Or the Elder Dragons were the only ones that were able to survive while the other creatures that were created that way died. Thats how Nature works, right? Things get created randomly and what survives workes. So their corruption could be just a very expensive spell to turn all into something similar to them to use up more magic. The rest of their personality could have formed over time or got influenced by whatever element/stuff that was around when they were formed. Of course, one problem with this could be the star connection the Jotun observed. But we don’t know how that works and it could also be false/incomplete information.
That’s pretty much been my working theory – that the Elder Dragons are eldritch abominations that just happen to look draconian which were formed by magical concentrations. Edge of Destiny’s narration saying that Kralkatorrik is “more magical than physical” implies this to me, especially since they seem to need magic to survive, regardless of its form.
And about the star thing – “It shows that the awakening of the dragons is a natural and cyclical thing. The stars only indicate the passing ages. They do not determine events here. " – that’s part of Varra Skylark’s dialogue at the end of the dungeon path, if you talk to her after the final cinematic.
What if the Elder Dragons are actually related to imps, like imps absorbed tons of magic over millenia and eventualy became the Elder Dragons? Shadow imps=Zaithan, Ice imps=Jormag, Fire imps=Primordus. No clues as to a connection for Kralkatorik, Bubbles, and Mordremoth. Also I’m not saying that imps are dragon minions, but that they can become dragons.
The imp theory is another strong contender in my opinion, especially given the imps’ new more draconian appearance in GW2, and the fact they grow larger and deadlier as they absorb more magic.
Further evidence for the theory would be the items needed to spawn the event Defeat the mysterious fire creature in Mount Maelstrom. Though somewhat indirectly.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
So, would killing an Elder Dragon just make the other Dragons all the more powerful as more magic is left for them to consume? The death of an Elder Dragon would also release any magic already stored within it, would it not? You think that would produce a large cataclysm on the scale of the sinking of Orr at least (as Zhaitan basically raised Orr from the depth in his “magic battery drained” state).
Also when the Dragons rose the Gods seemed to fade. I always wondered if there was a magical Ying-Yang element with the Dragons and the Six Gods. The Dragons consume magic and destroy life and when they are finally satisfied, they sleep. I wonder if this is when the Gods wake and absorb the magic that comes from the Dragons, issuing it out into the Earth, using it to create, build and nurture life. Then when the Dragons rise out of hunger, the gods retreat or perhaps “sleep” themselves until the cycle continues again. Thus the amount of magic ebbs and flows, creating some form of “balance”.
The Gods however can be replaced, as we know with the whole Kormir thing. They have an innate indestructibility that has to either be taken on by another or it would explode and take Tyria with it. If the Dragons had a true Ying-Yang with the Gods, their predicament would be the same and the spirit to consume magic and destroy life would have to be taken into another as a replacement.
Hmmm lots of speculation to ponder over. I love theories, often times more than the explanations that are eventually provided by the writers. It really proves the creativity and enjoyment players derive from a lore which gives good foundations but leaves other aspects to mystery.
It’s like a child enjoying the box more than the toy inside.