Guild Wars 2

What a mystery they are. I hope ANET ( in time) brings them into GW2 somehow. I really would like to know more about them, and where they came from. Mursaat? Not too interested in them.

The Seers however seem to be so otherworldly lore and appearance wise. Like they did not originate on tyria. My theory is that both the Mursaat and the Seers also came to Tyria long ago… Hmm who knows.

Anywho just thought Id share my thoughts <3 Oh, there is information that is “hard to come by” in GW2 about to the Seers… The interview below confirms that.

Ree Soesbee: There have been a lot of questions about the Seers and their ancient war with the mursaat. Sadly, these aren’t questions we can answer at great length without giving away some very deep secrets of the Guild Wars world. I can say that they are one of the oldest races of Tyria, dating back long before the Gods brought the humans to the world; to the time of the writing of the Tome of Rubicon. In those ancient days, the Seers fought against the mursaat, but they were in turn defeated by their enemies, and their civilization lost to the ravages of time.

Some remnants of that civilization, and that ancient time, still remain in modern-day Tyria (both in GW and GW2), but often, those who discover such things do not realize what they have found. There are opportunities in Guild Wars 2 to uncover some of the most ancient lore, including previously untold tidbits about the Seers and their story, but such information will be very difficult to come by.

Here is the link to the entire interview: http://www.guildmag.com/guildmag-issue-1-qa-with-ree-soesbee

Unless they add more lore later on in the game, I’m pretty sure she was talking about the Seer’s path in Arah.

Did the Seers use very advanced technology? Nope. From this moment, you can bury your hopes to see them again. Arenanet has a terminator/clockwork/laser-feitsh nowadays.

I would have to agree sadly it look like they wont ever be in guild wars 2, the last time we see one in GW1 is during War in Kryta and it appears to be being dissected by an asura. (they were my favorite race in the Guild Wars universe too), but path 4 of arah/seer path gives at least a bit of information on them.

Gandarel.5091:

Did the Seers use very advanced technology? Nope. From this moment, you can bury your hopes to see them again. Arenanet has a terminator/clockwork/laser-feitsh nowadays.

The Bazaar of the Four Wind would like to disagree with you.

Elidath.5679:

Gandarel.5091:

Did the Seers use very advanced technology? Nope. From this moment, you can bury your hopes to see them again. Arenanet has a terminator/clockwork/laser-feitsh nowadays.

The Bazaar of the Four Wind would like to disagree with you.

That’s 1 in 9 months. And actually there were Aetherblade attacks on the Bazaar.

From here:
- 18 LS updates since release ;
- 3 non technological festivals, two being in the “one month update” scope ;
- 2 SAB (not technology focused, it use technology but never shows it) ;
- 1 boss update (no relation to tech at all) ;
- 3 Southsun related updates, none tech related. One was a 1 month update ;
- 4 F&F updates. The first wasn’t tech related (only refugees). All where 1 month updates.
- 2 BotFW updates, none tech related (Aetherblades did made a cameo, but weren’t relevant to the plot).
- 1 Queen Jubilee update, moderate steampunk flavor.
- 2 (and soon 3) Aetherblades-related updates (Sky Pirates and Clockwork Chaos), heavily tech reliant.

At most 8 (counting the discutable SAB) out of 15 in the last 9 month. Barely half, in the farthest stretch, in a universe where tech do exist, and not representing it would be a breach of lore. I don’t get where you see this “tech fetish of ANet”, they just develop there world, and happen to slightly focus on a tech villain as of now.

And, yeah, I say “slightly”, because even if we hear a lot about Scarlett, she in fact didn’t do much at all: Sky Pirates and Clockwork Chaos, two 2 weeks updates, in 9 months. That is, as much as this BotFW you found wasn’t enough.

From what I gathered, Seers and Mursaats were allies at one point against the elder dragons. Mursaats decided to betray the group and left the world entirely (so they have ways to reach outer space, or the Mist). Glint hid the other races (including the seers) in her lair until the elder dragons sleeps again.

After the elder dragons were gone, both Mursaats and Seers returned to the world. They then fought against each other until Seers went extinct. It’s unclear what the Forgotten, Dwarves and Jotun were doing at the time.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Seer

“The seers were an enigmatic, magical race. During the last rise of the Elder Dragons, they forged the original Bloodstone to contain all untainted magic, including the jotun’s. They allied with the forgotten, dwarves, jotun, and mursaat to resist the Elder Dragons and survived. During this time, the five races worked together until the mursaat betrayed the other races and fled from the world. In the subsequent war between the mursaat and the seers, the seers were able to develop a defense against the mursaat’s Spectral Agony magic, but it was created too late in the war and the seers lost. Seer ruins exist still, but those who find them do not know their origins.¹”

Elidath.5679:

[…]
– 3 non technological festivals, two being in the “one month update” scope ;
- 2 SAB (not technology focused, it use technology but never shows it) ;
- 1 boss update (no relation to tech at all) ;
[…]
- 4 F&F updates. The first wasn’t tech related (only refugees). All where 1 month updates.
[…]
At most 8 (counting the discutable SAB) out of 15 in the last 9 month.

- SAB is fully magitech.
- Fighting Tequatl also got an improvement to… magitech laser!
- Flame and Frost centralized around the Molten Alliance, which was fully about advancing magitech.
- Let’s not forget Shadow of the Mad King which was using asura tech to investigate Mad King Thorn and used such to keep him in the Mad Realm whenever he popped through the hole leading to his encounter dungeon.
- Wintersday was also all about asura tech. So you’re wrong about 3 non-technical holidays even if you were to argue Shadow of the Mad King doesn’t count.
- Lost Shores utilized asura magitech to detect, and later fight, the karka threat.
- Dragon Bash utilized asura magitech once more in its decorations, and featured Aetherblades (why did you separate Dragon Bash from the Aetherblade encounter?)

This makes it now 11 months which contained tech or magitech related stuff: October, November, December, January (indirectly), February, March, April (via two content stuff), June (via Aetherblades in both updates), August, September (return of SAB/way to fight Teq), and now October. 11 out of 13 months.

If you go by just updates, you still have:
1) Shadow of the Mad King (used to investigate and counter Thorn)
2) The Lost Shores (used to investigate and counter karka)
3) Wonderful Workshop of Tixx (used by Tixx)
4-6) Flame and Frost parts 2-4 (used by Molten Alliance – you can argue no for Prelude but not the others you cannot deny – so still 3 there minimum)
7) Super Adventure Box world 1
8) Dragon Bash (via Aetherblades’ terrorist attack and investigating them)
9) Sky Pirates of Tyria
10) Queen’s Jubilee
11) Clockwork Chaos
12) SAB World 2
13) Tequatl Rising (via lasers to fight Tequatl)
14) Twilight Assault

non-tech:
1) Flame and Frost: Prelude (if you want to argue the hints of dredge with fire magic and mention of Flame with technology doesn’t count)
2) The Secret of Southsun
3) Last Stand at Southsun
4) Bazaar of the Four Winds (if you want to argue the 1 Aetherblade event doesn’t count)
5) Cutthroat Pirates (if you want to argue the “Direct Support” content of fighting Aetherblades doesn’t count).

Elidath.5679:

And, yeah, I say “slightly”, because even if we hear a lot about Scarlett, she in fact didn’t do much at all: Sky Pirates and Clockwork Chaos, two 2 weeks updates, in 9 months. That is, as much as this BotFW you found wasn’t enough.

If you count Sky Pirates, you must count Flame and Frost. And there’s her appearance in Queen’s Jubilee. And the Aetherblades’ attack during Dragon Bash you seem to forget (poor Theo Ashford, forgotten captain). So that’s 6 full months undoubtably pertaining to Scarlet – out of 12. 6.5 out of 13 if you count Twilight Assault, and 6/6.5 out of 9/10 if you don’t count 2012’s monthly updates.

Sorry to derail. About the OP’s question on Seers – Ree’s answer in the interview likely referred to Arah Seer path, given how it’s considered the hardest dungeon path in the game and certainly is the longest in Arah (and undoubtably end-game content at that).

Given the direction ArenaNet’s going, don’t expect anything not SAB or Scarlet until 2014 at the earliest. Excluding festivities, which happen every other month to give us a change of pace from the Scarlet storyline (like that thing needs spacing out even more… that “giving us a change of pace” is part of why I hate Scarlet’s plot tbh).

Konig: you merely acknowledged that tech exist and is used, which wasn’t in question to begin with.
Basically:
- Gandarel: non tech thing won’t happen evar in LS because ANet has tech fetish.
- Me: not true. They often use tech, due to convenience, but we seldom has tech as an important LS point, and real new tech only had 2 updates focusing on it. Nothing point to a “fetish” and an impossibility of seer presence.
- You: no, tech is present in every update.

I don’t know how to put it without sounding like a jerk (and I probably already do, which I apologize for), but really, you missed my point entirely.

Elidath.5679:

Konig: you merely acknowledged that tech exist and is used, which wasn’t in question to begin with.
Basically:
- Gandarel: non tech thing won’t happen evar in LS because ANet has tech fetish.
- Me: not true. They often use tech, due to convenience, but we seldom has tech as an important LS point, and real new tech only had 2 updates focusing on it. Nothing point to a “fetish” and an impossibility of seer presence.
- You: no, tech is present in every update.

I don’t know how to put it without sounding like a jerk (and I probably already do, which I apologize for), but really, you missed my point entirely.

Tell me 1, just 1 example in the past 1 year of living story where magic was involved. (no, megalasers don’t belong there). And more magic than Braham using guardian shield #5.

On the other hand, we had weapon facilities, dredge suits, golems, megalasers, terminator invasions from another steam-punk reality, steam-creatures, aetherblades, skyships and so on.

Also, we got 3 dungeons so far, all of them entirely tech-based.

The only magic-only used, however, plotwise or no, has been Thorn and Zephyrites. Possibly Tequatl’s power boost. While it’s not a “major focus,” technology is of plot relevance in everything I said. That being every update but Secret of Southsun/Last Stand at Southsun and Bazaar of the Four Winds/Cutthroat Pirates.

While it’s possible to have a more magic-centric plot revolving that of Tequatl’s power boost and the Zephyrites (which may or may not be directly or indirectly tied, given both deal with the Elder Dragons somewhat), most LS has been or included technology whereas most LS has had a lack of magic. Closest we get to including magic… is magitech.

Gandarel.5091:

Tell me 1, just 1 example in the past 1 year of living story where magic was involved. (no, megalasers don’t belong there). And more magic than Braham using guardian shield #5.

On the other hand, we had weapon facilities, dredge suits, golems, megalasers, terminator invasions from another steam-punk reality, steam-creatures, aetherblades, skyships and so on.

Also, we got 3 dungeons so far, all of them entirely tech-based.

First, it is important to note that “not tech” is different form “magic”. There is a lot of middle ground.
Second, your question is easy to answer.
- Halloween had doors to another dimension, and I don’t think MKT was too hot on high tech, which leave only magic.
- Wintersday has magical snow dispenser. I guess it qualify as magic.
- F&F (yes, F&F) was heavy on magic. If you remember the plot, it was all about a technological faction (the dredges) allying with a magical faction (the Flame Legion). Almost every F&F foe was using some kind of magic (supplemented with tech), and you can’t seriously argue the molten shaman weren’t using magic.
- SAB: asura magitech. As all asura tech, it involves magic. And tech. That’s what it is all about. And, yes, those mega lasers you seems to despise so much does qualify as magic too. Just not only magic. You not liking them does not make them less magic (h*ck, they float in mid-air!).
- Dragon Bash story included an assassination. Remember this investigation kit? It detect arcane residue. Sounds suspiciously like magic to me. Ashford was killed using magic. Because even the Aetherblades use it.
- BotFW: the whole sanctum is about magic. It fly using magic. It inhabitants live using magic everyday. All those “aspects” you could use to move around where magic. And it was full of magic artifacts summoning magical creatures.
- Queen’s jubilee was all about bashing in clockwork puppets. Disguised by powerfull mesmer magic!
- Tequatl rising: hard to tell as of now, but when a dragon (a creature deeply tied to magic) evolve without getting a cyber-eye, the chance magic is involved is high. We probably just don’t know about it yet.

So, when you actually want to see magic, you can realize it is about everywhere. just like tech!
And, even if you refused to acknowledge the existence of magic in all those updates, you have to consider that getting info about magic can totally be done by tech means. If they want to talk about seers, they will, and if they like tech so much, they add tech in the investigation or whatever.

TL;DR: nothing prevent more seers lore, not even a (imho non-existent) tech-fetish. LS focus on Scarlett prevents it in a near future, but everything is open after that.

@Konig: tech, while present, isn’t of any plot relevance in Wintersday, SAB, everything Southsun, and the Queen’s Jubilee (not Clockwork Chaos). in all of those you can replace tech explanation by magical ones without any noticeable impact. And magic had as much focus as tech in F&F (don’t forget the flame legion involvement! They wouldn’t be here if not for magic). Which balance things quite well in my eyes.
And it still wouldn’t invalidate the point I want to make that seers wouldn’t be absent “because tech”.

Konig may not have articulated it well, but the general point is valid. Magic does seem to be largely only showing up as a power source for some form of magitech.

This is probably, however, a symptom of Scarlet being an engineer, given that nearly all of the Living Story content has been Scarlet’s machinations or people dealing with the consequences of Scarlet’s machinations. The problem is that apart from the odd festival and boss update, the Living Story has been pretty much exclusively Scarlet, so unless Scarlet becomes interested in the Seers for some reason or ArenaNet starts actually holding up to their “wider, not deeper” ideal, we’re unlikely to see the Seers come up in Living Story.

Meanwhile, company policy seems to be “we don’t need no stinking expansions, we have Living Story” while refraining from doing anything that would actually be building off the personal story so they can avoid having to admit that there are time warps going on when someone is mixing LS with PS, so without some change in policy, it’s all Scarlet all the time in the foreseeable future.

Elidath.5679:

@Konig: tech, while present, isn’t of any plot relevance in Wintersday, SAB, everything Southsun, and the Queen’s Jubilee (not Clockwork Chaos). in all of those you can replace tech explanation by magical ones without any noticeable impact. And magic had as much focus as tech in F&F (don’t forget the flame legion involvement! They wouldn’t be here if not for magic). Which balance things quite well in my eyes.
And it still wouldn’t invalidate the point I want to make that seers wouldn’t be absent “because tech”.

Excuse me, but how is “tech not plot relevant” in a flying hot air balloon with renegade mechanical toys made haywire by artificial intelligence? That’s the plot of last Wintersday. That is 100% pure raw technology. At the very least, magical technology given its asura.

And the Lost Shores has a good amount of tech relation to its plot. Remember Researcher Levvi? She used tech not only to detect the karka’s invasion, but to counter their hard shells. You’ll find the product of which around Southsun Cove in the form of environmental weapons. You may have even partook in the research for the solvant to desolve the karka shells – did you go visit the quaggan, largos, and hylek in the scavenger hunt that weekend? Furthermore, said solvent was fired via catapults along with the lasers we can still see near Canach’s Folly during Defeat the ancient karka finale.

No tech to the plot of SAB? Think again. – and that’s ignoring the whole fact that the entire thing is a video game, which of itself is technology. The SAB wouldn’t exist without technology. The entire main plot and the sub-plot revolves around asuran technology being used as learning devices, and the rivalry between Moto and his former krewe. It is 100% technology related. Just because it’s holograms and jumping games instead of fighting massive robots of destruction doesn’t mean it’s not tech-based.

Queen’s Jubilee is also tech base. The Watchknights say hello.

And no, I would argue in those cases you could not replace technology with magic and it’d be unchanged. Maybe the SAB itself, but not the plot around it, and not the others either.

Let me re-phrase what I want to say:

How many times did anyone on our side used some great magical spell to solve a problem?

Quite a few… in the personal story and dungeons.

In the Living Story… not really. On both sides, with the possible exception of the Zephyr Sanctum, pure magic is really only seen at the “this combatant uses magic” level – the plot-significant stuff is all magitech.

To be fair, this may be a symptom of Scarlet driving the plot, but until the Living Story stops revolving around Scarlet’s rear-facing donkey that symptom will persist.

Konig: change the Tixx baloon to a static factory, his mechanical toys with AI to plush inhabited by elemental spirits, and you get 100% the same event. Change the Southsun mega-laser to a giant charr cannon, you get 100% the same course of action. Change the (magically disguised) clockwork knights* to total illusions, you get the same plot. Make the whole SAB a magical dream-affecting ritual, you get the same plot (for a player point of view at least, this one’s backstory at least depend on tech).
The plot of those wasn’t “tech”. It was “the toys are going haywire” or “kill the karka queen”. It was coated with a (varying level of) tech flavor, but it doesn’t make tech important in and by itself.
F&F did make the tech important, because it was an integral part of the plot. You wouldn’t have an alliance between dredges and flame legion if not for what they could bring to each other (respectively tech and magic).

In fact, most of the tech gizmo we see are just magic disguised as tech. Something complex and unexplainable needs to happen, and asura are the way to go for complex things, and they have a tech flavor to their handwaving, so tech it is. Just a coat of paint on the old “a wizard did it” explanation. I don’t see how just saying “a wizard did it” would not work. If anything, the asura are too much a motor force for the LS. but tech in itself? I don’t see it. In a world where rifles, tanks and choppers are a thing, most tech we see in LS easily blend in the background.

*as a sidenote, I really do wonder how you can you read “QJ doesn’t show any tech” anywhere in my posts? o_O
I never said such a thing, and in fact recognized multiple times the existence of the clockwork knights, and the fact that QJ was part tech in flavor.

TL;DR: yes, tech exist in the plot, which I don’t deny, but no, I don’t see it as critical to an overwhelming majority of LS update.

Elidath.5679:

change the Tixx baloon to a static factory, his mechanical toys with AI to plush inhabited by elemental spirits, and you get 100% the same event.

Except that his toys work with gears and power crystals (even if we don’t always see this), his balloon is not static, and there’s still the situation of Toxx and the programming she altered (there were interactive objects where Tixx and Toxx was in the dungeons, which explained Toxx was making the toys go haywire upon creation).

And even if you could replace how the toys are made, it’s still a fact that the plot revolves around technology.

Elidath.5679:

Change the Southsun mega-laser to a giant charr cannon, you get 100% the same course of action.

Er… so change one kind of magitech to something that’s 100% tech and you get the same course of action.

Doesn’t change that the plot revolves around us using technology to stop the karka – even if you can change it to magic without affecting the plot much, the point is that it was tech not magic used.

Elidath.5679:

Change the (magically disguised) clockwork knights* to total illusions, you get the same plot. Make the whole SAB a magical dream-affecting ritual, you get the same plot (for a player point of view at least, this one’s backstory at least depend on tech).

Given how the plot was how Scarlet was hijacking the clockwork knights (Opening Ceremony), no, you cannot get the same plot. Similar, sure, not same.

As before, doesn’t change the fact that Queen’s Jubilee, like Clockwork Chaos, as an emphasis on technology.

Elidath.5679:

The plot of those wasn’t “tech”. It was “the toys are going haywire” or “kill the karka queen”. It was coated with a (varying level of) tech flavor, but it doesn’t make tech important in and by itself.

The toys were tech. I disagree.

Finding out about the ancient karka (karka queen’s something else) was only because of tech. Killing it was only because of tech. While it’s not in the most basic of summaries of the plot, it was a part of the plot. You cannot dumb things down to such generic levels and expect the argument to hold.

Elidath.5679:

In fact, most of the tech gizmo we see are just magic disguised as tech.

Not quite. While in most cases, magic is used as an energy source, that’s all its used for. It’s not a disguise, it’s just a replacement for batteries and electrical cords. It’s an explanation to avoid having to add in dozens of generators and power plants.

Elidath.5679:

I don’t see how just saying “a wizard did it” would not work. If anything, the asura are too much a motor force for the LS. but tech in itself? I don’t see it. In a world where rifles, tanks and choppers are a thing, most tech we see in LS easily blend in the background.

I fully agree the asura are too much of a motor force – in the same way that sylvari are too easily a “be anything” kind of character race. Just saying “a wizard did it” doesn’t work because it gives no explanation, no extrapolation. It’s no different than simply saying “Abaddon did it” or the GW2 version, “Scarlet did it.”

“You want to know about the intricacies and reasons behind the events happening around you? Why the castle floats? Why villagers disappear to never be heard from again? Why this pair of elementals, usually hostile but benign in this village, occasionally turn hostile? Simple. A wizard did it.”

Not very compelling, is it. That’s why “a wizard did it” – or just as bad, “asura did it” “tech did it” “Scarlet did it” – doesn’t work. Abaddon worked because he was pointed out as the one behind things after we learned how the things were done.

Elidath.5679:

*as a sidenote, I really do wonder how you can you read “QJ doesn’t show any tech” anywhere in my posts? o_O
I never said such a thing, and in fact recognized multiple times the existence of the clockwork knights, and the fact that QJ was part tech in flavor.

Uh…

“tech, while present, isn’t of any plot relevance in Wintersday, SAB, everything Southsun, and the Queen’s Jubilee (not Clockwork Chaos).”

That’s what I was responding to. The Watchwork Knights are of plot relevance. Half of the Queen’s Jubilee’s plot is the Watchwork Knights, if not more. And the advancement in human technology is why they’re of plot relevance (aside from Scarlet hijacking them), which is why they cannot simply be replaced with fullblown illusions. Because then Scarlet’s acts with them in the Opening Ceremony, and the true and full importance of them, no longer exists.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

the point is that it was tech not magic used.

There is the problem in this discussion. Those are you point. Not mine. I’m not saying tech wasn’t here, and magic was everywhere.
I will quote myself : " yes, tech exist in the plot, which I don’t deny, but no, I don’t see it as critical to an overwhelming majority of LS update." Note the absence of “magic was important” or “tech didn’t exist/happen”

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And even if you could replace how the toys are made, it’s still a fact that the plot revolves around technology.

Tech was used, but it was not what made the story. Magic could have been used almost every time, because the tech in itself was just a convenience, not a critical plot point. It wasn’t put forward, merely a tool. I was trying to convey, with my examples, that a “magical” explanation would have resulted in the exact same events. Not that those “explanations” where what indeed happen.
And yes, replacing magitech by 100% tech or 100% magic doesn’t matter. We still have the same “a black box did something, do something about it” plot.
Unlike in F&F and CC, where the plot did revolve around technology (and magic too, for F&F).

And about “a wizard did it”, I am merely stating the fact, not judging it. The tech we see is just that: a handwave. From a storytelling point of view, it is “a wizard did it”, with some screws and wires put on top. That’s what I meant by “magic disguised as tech”, not that they where literally magic in lore. Sorry for the confusion

As for the QJ: the opening ceremony would in fact differ slightly. But you can’t really argue that the ceremony was the whole update, the vast majority of it didn’t depend at all on the nature of the knights. In fact, the ceremony is only the tie in to CC which depend heavily on this fact (as I recognized since the begining). Which is in line with my point that tech is sometime important but not always.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Elidath.5679:

as a sidenote, I really do wonder how you can you read “QJ doesn’t show any tech” anywhere in my posts?

“tech, while present, isn’t of any plot relevance in Wintersday, SAB, everything Southsun, and the Queen’s Jubilee (not Clockwork Chaos).”
That’s what I was responding to.

Well, if you read this quote, you’ll see that I recognize the presence of tech in those. My question still stand: where do you see me denying the presence of tech? I am just discussing its importance. I might have gone overboard in saying it has no plot relevance at all in QJ (it has a bit, in the opening ceremony only), but it was certainly not enough to state that the QJ is tech based. Only that it is tech related (which I do agree).

TL;DR: I might repeat myself, but I am in no way saying magic is everywhere and tech is not. Tech is often encountered in the LS. It just often isn’t important to the LS, we could very well do without while keeping the same general plot. Hence, and that’s what I feel is important in what I say, I don’t believe in ANet not including any update ever about seers “because they are about magic”.
If we can at least agree on this last point (and I think we can), I don’t have much to add.

I don’t think we can acknowledge the “tech” in ‘magitech’ without acknowledging the “magi” in it as well.

Dustfinger.9510:

I don’t think we can acknowledge the “tech” in ‘magitech’ without acknowledging the “magi” in it as well.

Holographic computers give me more of a tech impression. We have to dig deeper just to be told that “yeah that’s magic based” – and that’s bad.

GW1 asura level is something that did it right. You could really sense the magic among the asura race, highly using crystals and golems. But not megalasers in a floating city with holo-consoles.

Elidath.5679:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

the point is that it was tech not magic used.

There is the problem in this discussion. Those are you point. Not mine. I’m not saying tech wasn’t here, and magic was everywhere.
I will quote myself : " yes, tech exist in the plot, which I don’t deny, but no, I don’t see it as critical to an overwhelming majority of LS update." Note the absence of “magic was important” or “tech didn’t exist/happen”

And my point has been – though my wording may have been confusing, as usual – that tech is critical to an overwhelming majority of the LS update.

Magic, however, is not critical to an overwhelming majority of the LS update.

Elidath.5679:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And even if you could replace how the toys are made, it’s still a fact that the plot revolves around technology.

Tech was used, but it was not what made the story. Magic could have been used almost every time, because the tech in itself was just a convenience, not a critical plot point.

The plot would be radically different if it was magic and not tech. Hence my use of “revolves around” – e.g., tech is critical to those plots, as those plots would not be remotely the same (if only aesthetically) if not for that tech.

Elidath.5679:

As for the QJ: the opening ceremony would in fact differ slightly. But you can’t really argue that the ceremony was the whole update, the vast majority of it didn’t depend at all on the nature of the knights. In fact, the ceremony is only the tie in to CC which depend heavily on this fact (as I recognized since the begining). Which is in line with my point that tech is sometime important but not always.

The opening ceremony is the vast majority of the plot for the update. The rest of the update wasn’t really much plot, just some background lore to it.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Elidath.5679:

as a sidenote, I really do wonder how you can you read “QJ doesn’t show any tech” anywhere in my posts?

“tech, while present, isn’t of any plot relevance in Wintersday, SAB, everything Southsun, and the Queen’s Jubilee (not Clockwork Chaos).”
That’s what I was responding to.

Well, if you read this quote, you’ll see that I recognize the presence of tech in those.[/quote]Recognition of presence != recognition of plot relevance. Which has been my point.

I never said you denied tech to exist. I said you denied tech to exist as plot dependency and/or relevancy.

Dustfinger.9510:

I don’t think we can acknowledge the “tech” in ‘magitech’ without acknowledging the “magi” in it as well.

The issue – to me – is that magic in magitech has been devolved into being simply a powersource.

What magic there is in all of GW2’s magitech can be replaced with running water, steam, burning coal, oil, or gas and there’d be little to no difference.

To say magic is important in the magitech of GW2 is like saying that it’s important the battery for a remote control is Alkaline instead of Duracell.

Gandarel and Konig: While it may be skinned to a modern look, the magitech is much more than modern technology with a magic battery. The actual working of a lot of devices are dependant on that magic. So it also works as cogs, gears, programming, data storage, etc. Just look at the golems. They often fall apart when the magic is cut off. Wich means it was more than just the power source. It was integral into the operating mechanics. This is why I often compare golems to flame legion effigies when people talk about how technologically advanced the asura are. Because their golem technology is really just prettier sticks build with sturdier materials.

I never said that magitech is “modern technology” – I’m saying that it’s merely “technology that uses a power source known as magic, and would function similarly if not the same if it was given a different kind of power source.” (Also, I think Gandarel was saying that magitech looks like futuristic technology, not modern technology.)

Traditional magitech is not simply “technology powered by magic instead of ionized reactor fluids (or <insert other technobable here>)” but rather creating an output that is a combination of technology and magic. There’s not really a showing of this shared output of both.

And I disagree on your comment about golems. Take a non-asura and go outside Rata Sum into Metrica Province. There’s a heart where one of the things you can do is repair some deactivated golems. And what does it say for how to fix it? Blue and red wires among other mechanical things. In GW1, their golems were literally stone and vines powered by crystals. In GW2, their golems are metal platings with wires and possibly even circuit boards inside powered by crystals as opposed to batteries.

That activity is a lovely show of how different races view things (sadly, charr view them the same as other races), but it sadly also shows that asura use more technology than magical-technology.

My point isn’t that anyone said it is modern technology in this thread here. My point is that magic plays more of a vital role than just as a power source. So all the circuit boards and wires doesn’t negate the fact that the golems still fall apart. Or that it provides connections between souls and golems. or that the cubist golem is just a pile of square rocks without magic.

Well all those techno-babble the asura do just makes it worse. And at least in GW1 most asuras were actually elementalists, but here, they don’t really have any profession, NPCs keep up with us only with their devices – which questions the usefulness of magic or soldiers.

And I think crystals are really just a powersrouce now. It’s not more magical than any technology used in Stargate – and btw the asura name itself comes from the series and their gates too. Which clearly make it more Sci-fi than fantasy.

It’s funny, because in the Destiny’s Edge book, Snaffs inventions seemed more magic based than circuit boards and wires. When he makes Sandy, he gets Eir to carve him out of sandstone, grinds down the both the golem and the power stones, resulting in the magical power of the stones in each grain reassembling him. This seems very magical. No mention of plugs, cables and wires. Even his antagonist in Rata Sum, Klabb (sp?), made his flying puff ball invention out of of bits of milkweed fluff, insect wing scales etc. all cobbled together with spells.

So why such a massive leap from GW1 and the the books to now full tech with a bit of magic thrown in as an afterthought?! Maybe Anet wanted to appeal to a larger fan base. Pull in the Star Trek/Wars fans. Maybe we’ll get x-wing Asura fighters to battle the next dragon with.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And my point has been – though my wording may have been confusing, as usual – that tech is critical to an overwhelming majority of the LS update.

How so? As I pointed out, Wintersday wouldn’t be affected by replacing tech by magic. Halloween wouldn’t be affected. Dragon bash wouldn’t be affected. BotFW wouldn’t be affected. Southsun wouldn’t be affected. Tequatl rising wouldn’t either.
It leaves QJ, which would be mildly affected, the SAB, F&F (which is as much magic than tech), and CC/SPoT. Not overwhelming to me. Important, yes, but not overwhelming. Remove Scarlett and it leaves you only with the SAB, which I interpret as “ANet focus on Scarlet who likes tech”, not “ANet focus on tech”.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The opening ceremony is the vast majority of the plot for the update. The rest of the update wasn’t really much plot, just some background lore to it.

Granted, the QJ didn’t have so much as an individual plot, only a tie in to CC. But it makes my point of tech not being relevant to plot even more true, since nothing can be relevant to what doesn’t exist.
And in said ceremony, we could witness tensions in the government, between Logan and Anise, which I do believe are important basis for a future update (just like Scarlet intervention was).
Now, even if I were to acknowledge the Ceremony was all about tech (which I don’t), would it make the whole QJ tech based? I don’t think so. It was a festival about human ingenuity, it survival in rough times, and it capacity to surmount any obstacle. It is represented the rebuilding of a whole part of the capital city as an arena featuring mechanical dolls disguised by magic, and gladiators fights (where those gladiators Clockwork Knight too, btw? Can’t remind reading about it).
For me it was a “human based” update, not a “tech based” one. The focus was on human, their city, their mentality, their prowess in tech, magic and battle, architecture, diplomacy… Scarlet intervention, to me, is just that: an intervention. She did finally crash the party, but it developed in another update, centered around it.
Now, even with QJ as “tech focused”, it leaves 9 out of 18 updates (well, 19 now) related to tech. Half of them. Is it that overwhelming?
The problem, I guess, is a lot of people will think “tech” when seeing a pipe, a button, or any copper part, while “magic” is harder to represent. And when or things neither magic nor tech, they are practically invisible: no one would comment on the ships in Southsun for example, even when they did play an important role. We couldn’t even have gone there if not for plain boats (even asura gate need to go to the destination to good ol’ way at least once before), but it would comes to no one’s mind (or so I hope) to call The Lost Shore a “boat centered update”.
So the tech, while not that much more represented (imo), is much more visible than non tech. Even the Zephy Sanctum wasn’t that visibly magic (it looked like a giant kite, I guess a lot of people just thought it had a lot of buoyance).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

What magic there is in all of GW2’s magitech can be replaced with running water, steam, burning coal, oil, or gas and there’d be little to no difference.

Thing is, the opposite stand true, meaning the inner working has no bearing on it. Magitech, by essence, is a black box with a flavor. Put more gears and pipes on it, it is tech just powered by magic energy. Put swirling elemental energy around it and chanted activation sequence, and tech become just a way to keep the pieces into place. It all end up as a matter of representation, and how one perceive it.

TL;DR: I agree high tech is more visible than magic in LS, but I disagree it is more present to the point of being overwhelming.