Guild Wars 2

I found a post earlier, discussing the strength ratio between the elder dragons and the human gods. This got me thinking a bit. Besides the obvious similarities, why are they being compared so often in the first place? What are the similarities really? Why are they similar?

The Power of Dragons and Gods

Firstly, let’s discuss their strength ratio, which also happens to show a lot of their similarities.

Let’s go a couple hundred years back.

As Abbadon, the fallen god, died in gw1, his power was released and threatened to destroy the world. Literally rip everything apart. Kormir stopped this by absorbing it, becoming one of the six gods herself.

This alone is a valid argument for the gods being stronger than the dragons. Why? Because despite having killed two dragons, nothing as potentially destructive as this has happened. But stay with me for a moment.

Abbadons death tells us three major things:

1. The six gods are not infallible or perfect. They can be corrupted, and they can fight among themselves. They are, in other terms, more human than one would assume.

• This in itself, is an important argument. What if the dragons have suffered the same fate as Abbadon? What if they were originally as benevolent as the six gods (if they even are), but fell to corruption?

1. The six gods can be killed. While they can’t die of age or sickness, they can be killed.

• This too, is something we can recognize in the elder dragons. They’re eternal, but given enough of a beating, they can be killed.

1. The six gods needs and are being sustained by magic (read: worship), but also see fit to safeguard the use of it.

• Need I say more? The elder dragons feeds off of magic, to become stronger and to sustain themselves. What if the dragons were supposed to safeguard magic, much like how the gods tried to?

Anyway, let’s get back on track to the question at hand; who is the strongest of the two groups?

I’ll take a wager and say they’re equally strong. But how can that be, you may ask, as killing an elder dragon barely had any effect on the world, while killing a god nearly destroyed everything?

Well, it’s actually quite logical. I’m pretty sure the elder dragons that we face, today, are weak compared to them at their strongest. Like Abbadon, when we fought him he had been trapped in his own realm and starved of magic for decades. Imagine if he’d been starved for nigh 10 000 years instead. He’d likely be significantly weaker.

Let’s remember, that the last time the elder dragons rose, they sucked the world dry of all living things (life is magic). How terrifying is that? And now, as all that magic has been released back into the world, naturally they’re a lot weaker then they could potentially be.

The Role of Gods and Dragons

As I was looking at the power ratio, and realizing how similar the gods and dragons really are, I was became incentivized to find out more. Perhaps there’s more to it all than I thought?

I was very surprised to learn that the six gods and the human race are in fact not native to the world of Tyria, while the elder dragons are. It isn’t known where the gods or the humans came from, but it’s generally believed they passed through the mists from another world.

This not only suggests that there are more worlds out there, but also that perhaps the gods and the elder dragons once had the same purpose, as guardians of sorts to their respective worlds. It is of course, pure speculation, but an interesting concept nonetheless. This further supports the theory that the elder dragons once were benevolent, but like Abbadon fell to the corruption of magic.

And if that is the case, what would happen if we killed them all? Even worse, what would happen if the gods, at their full strength, became corrupted? Each one of them have the power to potentially destroy the world of Tyria. Maybe this is why they left in the great exodus?

Furthermore, in HoT we saw that as one elder dragon died, his power could be absorbed by another dragon, but only by a dragon as it skipped everyone in between. What if, in similarity, a gods power could only be absorbed by a human? What does this imply?

I don’t think the Elder Dragons are corrupted from their original purpose. Consuming magic IS their original purpose, they keep magic in check. In fact it is implied that without EDs to draw magic into themselves, an excess of magic could mean the end of Tyria.

In other words they keep the balance. From the POV of mortal races they’re “evil” because a side effect of what they do is an extinction-level event, but stopping the EDs from doing their jobs could very well be an end-of-the-world-level event.

Presumably part of Glint’s plan is to replace the current EDs with a new system that maintains the balance of magic without killing off the mortal races.

Allie.4925:

1. The six gods needs and are being sustained by magic (read: worship), but also see fit to safeguard the use of it.

• Need I say more? The elder dragons feeds off of magic, to become stronger and to sustain themselves. What if the dragons were supposed to safeguard magic, much like how the gods tried to?

Actually, we don’t know if the gods need anything to sustain themselves. While we have been informed that Dhuum grows stronger with deaths in the Underworld (unclear if this is just due to his location and he merely grows strong from nearby deaths or if it’s literally deaths in the Underworld or even if it’s deaths of his followers), he does not seem to require deaths to sustain himself – and deaths is not source of magic (unless he grows stronger from feasting on their souls after they die which would, indeed, be a source of magic).

However, this aspect is thus far unique to Dhuum. Balthazar, for example, is never credited with growing stronger with more war/conflict – let alone requiring to survive. In fact, if this was the case then Balthazar/Grenth/Dhuum and Dwayna/Melandru simply could not co-exist, for they are opposites – conflict and death versus life and prosperity.

Allie.4925:

Anyway, let’s get back on track to the question at hand; who is the strongest of the two groups?

The dragons have been said to ‘rival the gods’ which places them on par.

Allie.4925:

Well, it’s actually quite logical. I’m pretty sure the elder dragons that we face, today, are weak compared to them at their strongest. Like Abbadon, when we fought him he had been trapped in his own realm and starved of magic for decades. Imagine if he’d been starved for nigh 10 000 years instead. He’d likely be significantly weaker.

Abaddon had been imprisoned for 1,000 years, not “decades”. There’s a significant difference there. And nothing really denotes him as being starved.

In fact, Abaddon gains power throughout the campaign of Nightfall due to Varesh’s rituals. At least according to unused lines in the gw.dat. So he is indeed not ‘starved’ – if he could be. Abaddon’s weakness is, in fact, attributed to the prison itself – the gates within the Realm of Torment as well as his chains – and Varesh’s rituals opens said prisons (opens the gates) which allows him to use his power. Basically, the reason for Abaddon’s weakness and rise of power is that the gods had locked it away, separate from him, and the rituals that Varesh performed had somehow unlocked them – but not all of them, only three (for that’s how many rituals she performed). And there were eight gates (Torment, Anguish, Secrets, Fear, Madness, Pain, Nightfall Lands, and Abaddon’s Gate)

In other words, we fought Abaddon at 3/8th of his whole power.

Allie.4925:

This not only suggests that there are more worlds out there, but also that perhaps the gods and the elder dragons once had the same purpose, as guardians of sorts to their respective worlds. It is of course, pure speculation, but an interesting concept nonetheless. This further supports the theory that the elder dragons once were benevolent, but like Abbadon fell to the corruption of magic.

This is, more or less, my opinion on the matter.

I, however, do not believe that the Elder Dragons were once benevolent. The reason why I argue this is that there are hints and implications that, once upon a time, there was an entire group of races that were magic-consuming dragons, and only a handful might exist (in Cantha – Dragon Moss, Saltspray Dragons, and Turtle Dragons all potentials, with Saltspray Dragons highly likely). The Elder Dragons may-or-may-not derive from some of these races.

Allie.4925:

Furthermore, in HoT we saw that as one elder dragon died, his power could be absorbed by another dragon, but only by a dragon as it skipped everyone in between. What if, in similarity, a gods power could only be absorbed by a human? What does this imply?

That humans are as attuned to their homeworld’s magic as dragons are to Tyria’s magic. Or that anyone could consume magic, in theory, but requires the know-how or alteration to biological makeup to do so.

Dragons are not the only magic consuming race out there. Imps consume magic too – but only elemental magic. Scarabs are known to consume magic – or at least souls. And torment demons, titans, and post-demonification Margonites have as well – again, souls.

Embolism.8106:

I don’t think the Elder Dragons are corrupted from their original purpose. Consuming magic IS their original purpose, they keep magic in check. In fact it is implied that without EDs to draw magic into themselves, an excess of magic could mean the end of Tyria.

In other words they keep the balance. From the POV of mortal races they’re “evil” because a side effect of what they do is an extinction-level event, but stopping the EDs from doing their jobs could very well be an end-of-the-world-level event.

Presumably part of Glint’s plan is to replace the current EDs with a new system that maintains the balance of magic without killing off the mortal races.

The Elder Dragons are evil. You do not remain benevolent or good while actively trying to enslave and/or kill the world’s population and devastate their civilization.

The Elder Dragons are intelligent, and this means they can be selective in not just what they consume magic from, but how. There is no need for them to corrupt and destroy. Yet they do – they chose to do so.

This makes them evil.

I have to say its kinda odd the Human Gods was hording magic items in Arah.
makes me think they may have been consuming magic in some way .
(Maybe they left because they would have messed up the balance of tyria magic levels.) And would kinda explain why they would be so mad at Abaddon for the bloodstone fiasco."

Good and evil is never black and white, although Anet’s subpar writing does tend to make everything out that way (see: Inquest, Sons of Svanir, Nightmare Court, Flame Legion, etc.).

Deleena.3406:

I have to say its kinda odd the Human Gods was hording magic items in Arah.
makes me think they may have been consuming magic in some way .
(Maybe they left because they would have messed up the balance of tyria magic levels.) And would kinda explain why they would be so mad at Abaddon for the bloodstone fiasco."

IIRC, in the arah dungeon it’s stated that they were studying the artifacts. Which to me indicates that they were trying to figure out how Tyria’s magic worked.

Allow me to rephrase. My theory doesn’t consider the ED’s as good, per se, but as a necessary form of guardians of magic.

Further on, considering the many similarities between the six and the ED’s, couldn’t it be that the human gods were the equivalent to this in their old world?

Being a god or an ED doesn’t exempt you from corruption, which could explain why the ED’s are considered evil in the first place. What if they were meant to slowly consume the magic, over thousands of years instead of causing a massive extinction level event every few ten thousand years instead?

What if all that really happened, was that one or more of the ED’s got greedy and started consuming more than they were supposed to?

Let me rephrase again. What happens when a country starts expanding like crazy? Other countries places sanctions against them. In the worst case scenario, war. What is the ED conflict really? War between the elder dragons. They all want everything for themselves.

I rather doubt that five of the Elder Dragons are destroying civilizations because one Elder Dragon decided to go super greedy. Every Elder Dragon has shown signs of being equally greedy.

Zhaitan has minions that show he wants an eternal rule over his enslaved subjects.

Mordremoth showed that he saw himself to be the world, and that all belonged to him.

Kralkatorrik showed that he seeks to obtain everything and destroy that which he cannot have.

Jormag has shown to find willing converts who seek power, and to exterminate all weaklings – even if they’re his minions (Sons of Svanir actively hunt down icebrood, and icebrood tempt non-norn with promises of power).

Primordus has shown a desire, through his minions, to exterminate all animal and plant life, replacing it with constructs of earth and fire (he rarely ever corrupts living beings, and the Great Destroyer was said to prepare the way for Primordus by ‘wiping out all surface life’ (paraphrased).

Each Elder Dragon has shown a case of wanting to own everything, destroy everything, or both. Only exception is the DSD, but that’s more out of knowing nothing of him.