Guild Wars 2

First and foremost, this is a light-hearted post, hoping for discussion even if it’s in disagreement. This post will contribute nothing to the game itself and is just a big waste of time, so feel free to get involved and waste time along with me. I’m sure there are others who know more about Sylvari lore and can correct any errors in my thinking, and those who can connect additional dots and help bring this conspiracy to light! I really love the Sylvari lore and I have thrown several of my own assumptions(choose this word carefully and will use it a lot) into the mix after playing through the game.

If anyone is unfamiliar how the pale tree came to be, it was a seed stolen from the cave by a Human named Ronan. Ronan was a member of the Shining Guard and was on wartime duty far away from his village, now known as The Grove. He stumbled upon this cave guarded by extremely powerful plants, and inside this cave he found several large seeds and took one with him. Upon returning to his village(The Grove) he found that it had been razed by Mursaat and his beloved wife and daughter had been slaughtered. He planted the seed on their graves and vowed to live a life devoted to peace, love, friendship, and all that other pale-tree-hugging stuff. Ventari joined him later who was also devoting his life to similar values.

I believe all three bullet points are exact opposites of each other, and at the same time two sides of the same coin. I can go into more depth on these three points, but you will get the gist of it without me boring you into a Risen.
*Sylvari – Risen
*The Dream of Dreams – The Nightmare
*Pale Tree – Zhaitan

I am not going to talk much about The Dream of Dreams and The Nightmare, the ways they are interconnected and influence each other should be obvious, but for a great read check out the Dream and Nightmare Wiki page. The Pale Tree is a creator, it is the embodiment hope, justice, friendship, growth, and most importantly life. Zhaitan and his minions are destroyers, Zhaitan is the embodiment despair, chaos, corruption, and most importantly death. The risen are a product of Zhaitan’s awakening, much like the Sylvari are a product of the Pale Tree’s awakening. Zhaitan continues to spread his corruption of Risen across the lands and the Pale Tree continues to produce Sylvari at an increasingly frequent rate. I think we all know why the Sylvari are born, it’s pretty black and white and stated throughout the game, the Sylvari are born to fight the corruption, risen, and dragons, this is why they exist. They are the exact opposite of Risen, the Sylvari are plants, brightly colored and blooming. Yet they have much in common with the risen. As far as Tyrians know, Sylvari do not age, neither do the Risen. Sylvari have male and female genitalia but cannot reproduce, like the Risen. Sylvari are cold to the touch and are the only playable race that doesn’t have blood running through their veins, like the Risen. And all Sylvari, whether they are Nightmare Court or not are linked to the Pale Tree and the Dream of Dreams, like the Risen are linked to Zhaitan and The Nightmare(you only need to kill Risen and read their dying words to see they are connected to the Nightmare). Compared to the other races in my gameplay the Pale Tree and Sylvari are tied-in much more closely with the Dragons and Risen, and many of you might already know all of this.

Now, let’s start throwing out some assumptions and connecting some dots.
Everyone remembers how the pale tree came about? Good. I don’t recall if I read this somewhere, or I began to suspect it on my own; but why does the Pale Tree, a plant, have a humanoid avatar? Why are all the Sylvari humanoid? Ronan planted the seed on the graves of his family, surrounded by the graves of the entire village that he laid to rest. So I am assuming that the pale tree took the image of his wife, and the Sylvari are the images of the deceased villagers. While growing, the Pale Tree was influenced by Ronan and Ventari’s teachings. Also influenced by others who joined in their life of harmony, which is why we can assume that the Sylvari started being born when Tyria came under threat of the dragons and why the Sylvari exist to stop the corruption.

If you don’t see it yet, where is the “conspiracy?” Do you remember the description of the cave Ronan found the seed in? Have you completed the Arah Dungeon? Did you also get one-shot the first time you tried to attack the extremely powerful plants guarding the cave, just like where Ronan found the seed? Have you seen Zhaitan(who is made up of other dragons) and did you also think to yourself that he/she looks like a huge disfigured dead tree? So the questions remain, where was this cave that Ronan found the seed? If it was indeed inside Zhaitan’s cave was it really a seed or maybe a dragon egg? Maybe it is a seed and Zhaitan was attempting to corrupt it because he/she knew what the seeds were capable of. Maybe the seeds were corrupted, but over the years and circumstances of the one seed’s plantation it was purified. All organisms in Tyria can be corrupted, so why not purified also? This could explain why some corruption remains, why some Sylvari join the Nightmare Court and attempt to corrupt the dream. Yes, there’s other reasons they join which I have not gone into, but it is said the Nightmare Court Sylvari lose themselves in corruption and become pure evil. Looking forward to hearing if anyone else has similar thoughts.

Really?

Really?

I want to be able to +1 you Illushia. All the time, it seems.

Illushia.3721:

Really?

Really?

As real as the beating Tarnished Coast took this week.

Quatre.6085:

Illushia.3721:

Really?

Really?

As real as the beating Tarnished Coast took this week.

Wut? What’d we get beat on with?

Did someone find our server-case in the ANet warehouse and smack with with a hammer?

No, I don’t think Zhaitan looks like a disfigured tree.

Ronan is known to have found that cave in the Maguuma Jungle.

During the personal story, it’s said that there’s no cue for becoming a risen. Reason being is that the risen’s bodies are dead, rotting, etc. The land itself can be cured, but that’s more a case of “new life” rather than “returned life” (as well as the fact that the actual land wasn’t corrupted, but rather stiffened, by how I understand it and Zhaitan’s corruption).

There is no relation between zhitan and the pale tree, they are just completely separate, but there is some evidence that the pale tree could be a type of champion of an elder dragon.

I would suggest looking at WoodenPotato’s video that looks at the subject. Some of the key points i too from his video:
– when the nighmare court corrupts the dream in the sylvari opening quest, the corruption takes the form of a dragon.
– the sylvari aren’t corrupted by the other elder dragons, and we don’t see any cross-corruption between the existing elder dragon’s minions.
– we know that champions can fall away from their elder dragon (glint)

really go watch wp’s video, it looks at all of these things in finer detail

The Nightmare Court has nothing to do with the Dragon that shows up. They’re separate entities that just happen to show up at the same time.

Your(the PC’s) Wyld Hunt is to kill a dragon, and that is what that part of the Dream shows. The Nightmare Court did not summon or create the dragon.

I like to think that the whole Sylvari and Risen conflict is secretly an elaborate Plants vs. Zombies fanfiction on the part of one or more content developers at ANet.

Illushia.3721:

The Nightmare Court has nothing to do with the Dragon that shows up. They’re separate entities that just happen to show up at the same time.

Your(the PC’s) Wyld Hunt is to kill a dragon, and that is what that part of the Dream shows. The Nightmare Court did not summon or create the dragon.

Where I don’t believe that the Pale Tree is a champion, the whole plan of the Nightmare Court is to corrupt The Dream and give it pain, and torment and turn it into a Nightmare. So I’m fairly certain that is what caused the dragon in The Dream, or at least all the fighting right at the start.

If the corruption that the Nightmare Court is inflicting isn’t the cause of said dragon, the only other connection I could think of is that the say the 6th dragon is of nature, which would follow the trend in the dragons IF it is still alive or even awake who really knows. And like Zaithan is made of many undead, it is made of many plants and connected to all nature, it would make sense that it could have influence over the Sylvari.

Now I’m backing up what you said about the unlikely theory of the Pale Tree being a champion of an ED. But there are or HAVE been at least 6 Elder Dragons, and I think it’s fairly likely the 6th is of a nature quality. If I were to connect that and the Sylvari at ALL through what we’ve gathered, following this train of thought, because nothing is confirmed and this thread is about hypothesizing what could happen in the lore. It would be that the Pale Trees are this ED’s form of corruption.

Just follow my working through this. Remember it’s under the assumption that the 6th ED is alive and kicking, and that he/she is of the nature variety, AND the Sylvari are connected at all.

1. The EDs are extremely powerful animals that want to control the world and shape it to better fit them.
2. The EDs were stirring when the first seed was found in a cave, among many other seeds.
3. There IS an existence of another Pale Tree, so more seeds must have gotten out. Between then, where they were in a hidden hard to find spot, like all the other EDs were in, and now. So either someone else found it and is spreading them or…
4. The 6th dragon is awake and moving, and just as Kralkatorrik Branded Ascalon by flying over it, these seeds fell off/are from this other ED of nature. Where as it doesn’t seem a big deal now, the overgrowth of nature could be a real threat in the long run.

Where I don’t believe that the Pale Tree is a champion, the whole plan of the Nightmare Court is to corrupt The Dream and give it pain, and torment and turn it into a Nightmare. So I’m fairly certain that is what caused the dragon in The Dream, or at least all the fighting right at the start.

Nope. The Nightmare Court were essentially in the wrong place at the wrong time. They’re constantly trying to corrupt the Dream, torture/kill Dreamers, and otherwise be mean and nasty.

The Dragon was actually part of the Dream itself, the part of our experience within it that fortells what we’re doing.

The Nightmare Court were IN the Dream. The Dragon was part of the Dream itself- the Dream showing us what we would have to fight in our future, and giving us our Wyld Hunt.

The Dragon wasn’t really a dragon at all. It was the Dream’s represenation of what we would be forced to face in our future.

Yes, well I did say “or at least the fighting at the start” not trying to draw definitive lines, just stating plausible connections.

I do remember now that you mention it that it is supposed to be part of our calling I think , but I haven’t played my Sylvari really at all yet. I still stick with the rest of what I said though.

Wow, won’t you all you Pale Tree = ED people be disappointed when the 6th Elder Dragon turns out to be a giant Saltspray in Cantha with powers linked to the Jade Wind. :P

But in all seriousness there are thousands of possibilities as to what additional Elder Dragons might be. To latch on to one possibility and assert that it must be so is ridiculous, especially when it asks you to twist and distort the already established lore.

Illushia – it’s actually implied that the Nightmare Court did have something to do with the dragon in your Dream. I played the Green Knight storyline just last night, and at the end of it, Caithe makes a mention about how the Court is trying to corrupt the dream, and what you fought in the Dream was one of those corruptions. I’m trying to find a video of the conversation – I think it was during the convo with the Pale Tree after the fight with the Green Knight, but I’m not certain.

Couldn’t the Pale Tree (and by extension the Sylvari) just be the planet of Tyria’s reaction to the Elder Dragons?

A sort of defense mechanism that was initiated when they stirred, because of what the planet had learned after the last time they awoke (kind of like anti-bodies in humans — once exposed to a disease the immune system learns methods to fight it).

Illushia – it’s actually implied that the Nightmare Court did have something to do with the dragon in your Dream. I played the Green Knight storyline just last night, and at the end of it, Caithe makes a mention about how the Court is trying to corrupt the dream, and what you fought in the Dream was one of those corruptions. I’m trying to find a video of the conversation – I think it was during the convo with the Pale Tree after the fight with the Green Knight, but I’m not certain.

You -do- fight their corruption in the Dream. Those Thorn Hounds? That’s the Nightmare Court’s handiwork. They point out many times later in the storyline that you fought a Dragon in your Dream like only -one- other Sylvari has- Caithe.

That Dragon didn’t have anything to do with the Nightmare Court, and everything to do with your Wyld Hunt as a player character.

Ahhh, OK. Makes sense. I was a bit annoyed by that, since it seemed to imply that my actual Wyld Hunt was against the Court, rather than the Dragons. Thanks for clarifying.

DaMunky.6302:

I like to think that the whole Sylvari and Risen conflict is secretly an elaborate Plants vs. Zombies fanfiction on the part of one or more content developers at ANet.

This. With seed turrets.

Baji.3417:

Couldn’t the Pale Tree (and by extension the Sylvari) just be the planet of Tyria’s reaction to the Elder Dragons?

A sort of defense mechanism that was initiated when they stirred, because of what the planet had learned after the last time they awoke (kind of like anti-bodies in humans — once exposed to a disease the immune system learns methods to fight it).

I like this theory myself. The Pale Tree as the avatar of Tyria itself. As in Earth’s Gaia.

First of all, there are some conflicts in the lore regarding the Pale Tree that ANET has not cleared up. If you played GW1 and have been to the grove there, interact with Ventari and you’ll get a different story about the seed. He states that Ronan gave him the seed .. that Ronan had fought the White Mantle and upon returning home found his family dead. (No mention is made of the village.) “In his grief he threw down his weapon. Perhaps he was looking for escape or a place to die to end his suffering. There he lay a broken man, and in that moment he found the seed that would become all of this.” This version, stated by Ventari, obviously implies that Ronan found the seed after coming back to his village and not beforehand. Since Ventari says that Ronan gave him the seed, it throws into question a number of lore points. First, Ronan did not plant the seed on the grave of his wife and daughter because he gave it to Ventari. I would find it doubtful that Ronan’s village was located in the position of the Grove. It’s on a small island in the south and east of Rata Sum. The White Mantle were fighting in Kryta. Second, Ventari had arrived at the grove before Ronan. Ventari wanted to create a sanctuary and made his way to the grove. Ronan arrived afterwards seeking a place away from war and pain. Third, since Ronan gave Ventari the seed as he states, it would be logical to assume that Ventari planted the seed.

In regards to the seed coming from some cave in Orr, that would have been impossible since at the time of GW1, Orr was at the bottom of the ocean. I personally doubt that the Pale Tree is a dragon or even champion of a dragon. Abaddon is the god that provided the gift of magic. Perhaps the seeds are a result of those magical abilities stored away for future use, but forgotten about over time.

The main questions that still remain are about the origin of the seed and how it came to be where Ronan found it. It’ll be interesting to see where ANET goes with the development of this piece of lore.

He may have meant that he found the seed after finding his family, as in “It was then that he found the seed.” I don’t know the actual quote though just saying that’s probably how it was meant to be read. For it clearly states that he found it in a cave guarded by powerful plant creatures from the wiki.

“The seed which sprouted the Pale Tree was found in a cave containing many others like it, guarded by powerful plant creatures. Over 250 years ago, Ronan, a Shining Blade warrior, took one of these seeds and placed it on the graves of his family, who were killed by the mursaat. He and the centaur Ventari tended the young tree, and their attitudes and philosophy had significant influence on its nature. In particular, the marble tablet carved by Ventari prior to his death and placed at the base of the tree forms the basis for the Pale Tree’s philosophy.”

I don’t think anyone said anything about the cave being on Orr, but regardless of that, it was found in a guarded hidden cave, with many other seeds.

For it clearly states that he found it in a cave guarded by powerful plant creatures.

Yes, and I agree that the writers intend for the wiki account to be the accepted lore about the Pale Tree. I just think they need to go back and redo the Ventari statement so it matches up more clearly. It still has some contradictions with the wiki account.

The OP was questioning whether the seed might have come from a cave in Orr with some tie to Zhaitan. That’s why I commented that Orr was at the bottom of the ocean in GW1.

As it stands now, I have a hard time believing the story of the Pale Tree.

THIS POST CONTAINS SPOILERS SO DON’T READ IT IF YOU CARE!!!

Just so you know, you are missing a few points.

1) Ronan found the seed that made the Pale Tree in a cave full of SEEDS (plural, meaning there was more than one seed. Ronan only took one of them.
2) If you choose the correct set of choices for the story line you will be presented with the fact that there exists more than one Pale Tree when you meet another Sylvari named Malyck who knows nothing about the Pale Tree or the Dream. Malyck’s story eventually takes takes you to his pod in the river where Caithe explains why the Nightmare court considers Malyck a “harbinger” because he has no knowledge of Ventari’s tablet and so hasn’t been influenced by it. The Nightmare Court seeks the “harbinger” to lead them to the other pale tree who they see is free of the influence of Ventari which is what they seek because they believe it makes them fight the dragon with one hand tied behind their backs. Be that as it may, Malyck, in the end, shows that even without the influence of Ventari’s tablet that the Sylvari are predisposed to fight the elder dragons and clean up their corruption as Malyck’s last scene is him leaving to go find his pale tree and the Sylavri it has produce to raise another army to fight against the elder dragons.

In GW1 lore there have been several plant races and much speculation as to their origin/s (the Wardens in Cantha for example). The multiple pale trees coming forward with each rising of the elder dragons explains a lot of this.

Awesome information and great reading here, any idea where I can find more about Caithe and her lost beloved? (as far as I understood she’s in love with another female sylvari who was corrupted by the nightmare). Am really entangled by sylvari race and their lore.

Caithe is in love with Faolain, the Grand Duchess of the Nightmare Court.

Just want to point out that all ED minions compete with each other for territory and resources. an example being the destroyers fighting the risen. So if the pale tree is a product of an ED this could explain why they instinctually fight the other dragon minions.. also would explain the whole hive mind thing they have going on. Another thing is that the pale tree would likely be assimulated by its respective ED when/if it wakes up.
Then again it could have absolutely nothing to do with the EDs but I think thats somewhat unlikely.

I don’t read too much into the similarities between the Elder Dragons’ champions and the Pale Tree. Just look at the similarities between the Dwarves and the Destroyers. Someone created living weapons against the Elder Dragons a long time ago, and a lot of those weapons exhibit traits similar to the particular dragon minion they where forged to fight.

I personally connect the Nightmare Court to the Stone Summit. This means there might be an plant based Elder Dragon out there, but the Pale Tree isn’t it’s betraying champion but instead it’s opposing Great Dwarf. We don’t know much about the Great Dwarf and if it once was physical; we just know what was learned when the ritual was completed. When you look at the fanaticism of the Stone Summit next to the Nightmare Court, I find it an easy to draw comparisons. Qualifiers are that there is at least one moment we know of when a Stone Summit turned, but that involved the gods…

All that is just an old theory I’ve had for awhile. A newer theory involves the Soundless, Malyck’s mother, and Urgoz. But it’s 12:30 AM in my timezone so I really should be getting some sleep. I’ll check on this thread tomorrow.

Heck. There might be even a dragon which would try to help races of Tyria.

No one says there might not be a positive elder dragon out there, but the nature of what that dragon is heavily depends on what the elder dragons really are. Observation tells us being of great power that slowly converts their surroundings to an archetype compatible with their power, working slowly outward on a global scale. There could very well be an Elder Dragon that represents the soul of Tyria that would work to undo the dragons’ corruption once it awakens, but that opens up an entirely different bag of worms.

That bag of worms is also a mostly divergent topic from the one at hand: origins of the Sylvari.

I closed last night’s post referencing what my Theory B entails: the Soundless, Malyck’s mother, and Urgoz.

Of course this all swings around to Nightmare. If the Soundless are partly under the influence of another mother tree’s philosophy, what’s to say that the Nightmare Court isn’t as well. Nightmare as just the court’s philosophy isn’t strong enough in my opinion to serve as narrative justification for the sudden personality shift those who join the Nightmare Court suffer, but Nightmare as the philosophy of another mother tree’s dream might be. Part of me wants that other mother tree to be in Cantha with some connection to Urgoz and the wardens, but at the same time I realize that there is no reason for such a desire to pan out. Still, if there are two trees, why not three?

And… that’s all I have to say on the matter. I have other theories involving Urgoz and Melandru and how they might together relate to the sylvari and the mother trees, but I think they get a bit too tangent to the topic of the thread. Then again, I am over cautious sometimes.

1. Pale tree is in best case scenario a champion
2. Yes the dragon at the start of the sylvari zone is caused by the corruption of the Nightmare Court, thus showing the true nature of the Sylvari since the second generation mostly didnt get influenced by the teachings on Ventari’s tablet
3. Leave it to the future, dont spoil yourself by doing what a lot of us did and link Shiro to the Lich.

2. Yes the dragon at the start of the sylvari zone is caused by the corruption of the Nightmare Court, thus showing the true nature of the Sylvari since the second generation mostly didnt get influenced by the teachings on Ventari’s tablet

No.

The Dragon at the end of the Sylvari starting instance is a representation of the Player Character’s Wyld Hunt to kill a dragon.

Caithe had a similar Dream, meaning Caithe and the PC are the only two Sylvari to have had a Wyld Hunt to kill a dragon. It’s mentioned in several of the personal story quests, and where the Dragon came from.

And what are you talking about with the tablet? All the Sylvari from the Pale Tree(Save those turned to the Nightmare) follow Ventari’s tablet one way or another.

It’s only those from the other tree, like Malyck, who don’t follow the tablet but have a fairly similar outlook and demeanor to those that do.

Firstly, the risen aren’t connected to Nightmare at all.
Nightmare is, in fact, a part of the dream; a part created by the dark feelings of sylvari, originally when Cadeyrn saw the results of the Inquest’s experiments on one of the first-born. The Court embraces that part of the dream, and wishes the entire dream to turn to this way of thinking. Even the Nightmare Court still feels the call to fight the dragons.

Secondly, the Pale Tree creates Sylvari outright. Zhaitan instead corrupts the bodies of the dead. Entirely different way of doing things.

Thirdly, the Sylvari do have blood of a sort; it’s more of a sap, but it’s still an equivalent.

Fourthly, the “Other Tree” doesn’t have any call to fight the dragons.

Fifthly, Orr storylineZhaitan gets his power from eating magical artifacts. The Pale Tree has shown no signs of such

Nightmare is, in fact, a part of the dream; a part created by the dark feelings of sylvari, originally when Cadeyrn saw the results of the Inquest’s experiments on one of the first-born.

Actually, no, the Nightmare existed before that, it only manifested first in Cadeyrn because he was the first of the Sylvari to express those emotions it thrives on.

the “Other Tree” doesn’t have any call to fight the dragons.

While this is true, Malyck does say that he’s going to try to convince his tree to join the fight.

I do not think the Pale Tree or the other Tree(s) are connected to any dragons. The seeds were found before the dragons rose and I think people would notice dragon minions or Champions marching around and placing seeds, from what we have seen most of the dragons minions are mindless killing machines and only really champions can think for themselves. I do think that they were enhanced or created by someone or thing else. Possibly Melandru but that’s doubtful due to her being a human god.

The Dream i think is basically like a huge repository of information like a database, and that the seeds Ronan found all have a connection to this and through the Pale Tree the Sylvari gain basic information and can see some specifics of things. The Sylvari are linked Telepathically while growing to the Pale Tree and thus connected into the dream and are able to share information and also use it to learn and mature. Other Tree’s could possibly connect to the dream that the Pale Tree is connected to and share the tree’s experiences with its children and the world around it with other trees.

I do think the nightmare is part of the dream as a whole and the pale tree is pushing her children away from it or tired to keep them from interacting with it. could be one reason some feel the need to join the nightmare court a feeling of something missing or betrayal by the pale tree for not letting them explore that side.

Seems like the empathy the Sylvari have with each other and plants works with the dream as well and are able to send what they experience back through that connection which might be a sort of telepathy between the dream and Sylvari. The soundless sever the telepathic/empathetic bond that connects them to the dream and thus other Sylvari but are able to keep the bond towards other plants.

Dragon minions are unable to reproduce unless they were pregnant when corrupted, see storyline step “A Friend in Deed”, Skritt path dialogue. The Pale Tree has reproduced in a way, creating Sylvari on multiple occasions. Therefore, the Pale Tree cannot be a Dragon minion.

I don’t buy it because the dragons are primarily consumers. They awaken, they eat as much as possible (magic artifacts in Zhaitan’s case) then they sleep. Even at the Sylvari race’s worst they don’t seem to follow this pattern.

the problem with the drasgon at the end of the dream is that although every player sees it, not every sylvari does. in your personal story it is your wyld hunt to kill the dragon, which is why the nightmare boss appears in the form of a dragon. but lore wise, only the player and whats her face from destinies edge have that wyld hunt which means the rest of the sylvari dream something else.