Guild Wars 2

So yeah. Elder Dragons. What makes them so elder and so dragon-y though? Let’s look for/at some common traits:

• They’ve been around for a while and their awakenings have a cyclical nature
• Each has a cavalcade of servants, created or otherwise subverted by it
• These servants actively work to impose their master’s will and advance his agenda
• These servants are not created equal, ranging from expendable foot soldiers to commanders and generals with a lot more agency and free will.
• They reshape their environment in their own image.
• The EDs can impose their will on their minions across vast distances, compelling them to carry out their orders.

Having said that, let’s see what we already do know for a fact, and try to make some presumptions based on the notion that at the end of the day, having all these traits in common it’s not unlikely they have more in common.

The Dragons’ Generals

In the case of Primordus, his greatest general was the Great Destroyer. His demise at the hands of the GW1 PCs set back his awakening, but did not prevent it.

For Kralkatorrik, it’s Glint. She was freed of her master’s influence, and began actively working against him. She herself claimed that his awakening could not be stopped, whether by her or anyone else.

For Jormag, this is quite possibly Drakkar. While not exactly awake in the conventional sense, he’s the closest and (so far as we know) only source of corruption that could have affected Svanir. Taking a look at Svanir, it’s quite obvious he’s corrupted in much the same way that all the other Icebrood are. How’d he get himself into this with no awake dragon to corrupt him, you say? It’s not entirely unreasonable to assume that an Elder Dragon stirs long before he awakes, and can reach out to and command his minions, though with greater difficulty. Essentially, the ED sounds the party alarm, causing all the party people-minion-dragons to come calling. With fresh ED-strength coffee and magical crumpets, no less.

This seems to imply that an Elder Dragon’s greatest champion, while important to his awakening, is ultimately not needed. They accelerate the process by getting the ball rolling, so to speak, but even without their intervention the ED’s wake up later, rather than sooner, and get to work.

Given that we’re already 3 for 6 here, it’s a decent assumption to presume that the rest of the gang operate in a similar manner. In the cases of Zhaitan and Bubbles, we may never know who was meant to be the catalyst for their awakening (they’d opted to take a nap in places inconvenient for our observation).

On to Mordremoth. We’ve quite clearly seen that his minion portfolio so far includes creatures curiously reminescent of sylvan hounds, and the all too familiar husks. Where else have we seen these, you ask? Well, the Pale Tree grows sylvan hounds, in much the same way she does the Sylvari. The Nightmare Court (who are, wait for it, sylvari) seem rather fond of husks themselves. Inquest experimentation into ED magic seems to have also picked a Husk and some Nightmare creatures as the basis for their exerimentation into Mordremoth’s energies.

Right around here is where I’ll pull the tried and tested “THE PALE TREE IS A KITTEN DRAGON MINION, EVERYBODY RUN” card. But not quite. What do we know about the Pale Tree, really? We know it was grown from a seed, and there were many more like it in a cave. We know the cave was guarded by “powerful plant creatures”. Sound familiar? We also know the Pale Tree is pretty big on the whole Ventari’s Teachings thing. Conveniently, the latest patch has a book in the ley line hub containing the theory that souls are like magic (and lightning, because lightning is cool), and can be grounded. Not related, right? Wrong.

• Abaddon was pretty banged up after his fall and he diverted a whole river of the kitten things. He is conveniently regenerating while this is happening.
• The Risen Priest of Grenth encountered in the story mission in the Cathedral of Silence is said, by the 7th reaper, to have been “stolen”. Furthermore, grenth wishes his soul returned to the mists. Well then.
• Ventari, in his old age, lay down next to the pale tree as he died.
• At least one other pale tree seed has sprouted somewhere, though it has a decidedly more “blank” persona and no Dream to speak of.
• You know that Mouth of Zhaitan dude? Big, ugly, burps a lot? He eats magical artefacts, thus strengthening his master.

All this seemingly unrelated insanity, what if I told you that the pale tree is such a massive hippy because it absorbed, partially or fully, the soul of Ventari upon his passing, imprinting it with his personality and beliefs.

But what about Malyck’s tree? Since clearly sentient beings don’t wind up taking their dying breath under big fancy magical dragon champion seedlings, Malyck’s tree had nobody to imprint anything from and grew to be a regular old plant. Persumably when Mordremoth begins to stir (something we’re somewhat past at this point) he will reach out to his currently purposeless general and set it to work.

But Mordremoth used Scarlet, you say? Given that he’s the only ED to wake up outside the (usual) 50 or so year interval between ED risings, presumably he was a lot less “stirry” than would have been required to take control of a giant whoppin sentient tree with free will such as Malyck’s tree. The Pale Tree was even more so out of the question, imparted with the strong and somewhat disagreeable with the whole ED spiel beliefs of Ventari.

Scarlet, much like the Soundless (who a certain trader-turned-saboteur was a member of) was disconnected from the Dream. An entity reached out to her (are you gettin the Svanir vibes yet?). It tried to take credit for her ideas, or so she claims, and we all know how her ideas turned out. You see, a single sylvari with a big kitten in her psyche’s armor would be relatively easy to take hold of compared to Malyck’s tree. Sure, she’d be a lot less capable of fully awakening Mordremoth as opposed to the champion(or champions) intended to do so, but hey, if you have to get to the next town and the train has derailed then a bike is still better than walking.

Where are the Nightmare Court in all this? What gives with that whole Nightmare thing anywho? The Nightmare is, for all intents and purposes, a sharp disagreement with the teachings of Ventari. Though it’s source may be Mordremoth, only time will tell if their activities to were what he intended, or simply an acceptable byproduct of him attempting to subvert Ventari’s influence. Surely with each sylvari/hound/husk turned to Nightmare, the Pale Tree’s positions weakens, regardless of whether this directly strengthens Mordremoth or not. Think of it this way – by turning away from the Dream, sylvari leave themselves vulnerable to being drawn into the fold of their master. While his grasp was still weak, Scarlet’s dabbling with Omadd’s machine left her uniquely vulnerable, and we all saw how that turned out. As Mordremoth grows in power (something happening quite quickly by the looks of things) we can expect that he’ll fully subvert the nightmare court as they are the next most susceptible batch of his minions, right along with the dreamless sylvari born of the other pale tree(s?).

On the Eternal Alchemy and why things seem to happen in the wrong order.
The vision of the Eternal Alchemy seen in Omadd’s machine does not represent the ED’s true awakening as would be observable by us, but rather their stirring. As we’ve seen, their rise is inevitable, but delay is a possibility. Primordus, followed by the DSD, followed by Jormag stirred and awoke in the order we see with the aid of their respective minions and champions. Mordremoth stirred next, with no champion and minions, he did not fully awaken. Kralkatorrik stirred next, but as he is also without a champion, his full awakening is delayed. Finally Zhaitan stirred. As he happened to be sleeping on top of exactly what he needed to gain power (and possibly further aided by his own champion), leading to him awakening fully before Kralkatorrik and Mordremoth. After this Kralkatorrik becomes observably active (perhaps somewhat more empowered than Mordremoth by that whole Searing thing slathering the nearby area in magic), creating the Dragonbrand and hunting down his errant alarm clock. Finally Mordremoth awakens fully with the aid of Scarlet’s ley line tap in a rather spectacular case of better late than never.

Ventari is in the Dream. Logically, the Pale Tree (and Sylvari) could have inherited some of his knowledge and wisdom.

i think the nightmare court started that way, and eventually evolved into “let’s just taint the dream because we’re evil and sadists”. there’s also that whole “once you turn into nightmare, you can’t go back”, and how the whole “recruitment” process is pretty similar to corruption.

so i propose something more simple: mordremoth uniquely can corrupt sylvari, given his dominions over plants, rather than the sylvaris are “purified minions”.

so all sylvaris are inherently “good”, or at least neutral. mordy corrupts them and they become what we see the courtiers do, which is being a sadist kitten with everyone.

as for the orbs, i still think that the order they start moving around in the cutscene is merely aesthetic.

note: only skimmed the third post. you people really need to stop making such huge posts to say simple things. or tackle just one issue at a time. or both.

BrunoBRS.5178:

snip

As for the Sylvari being good, I’m not so sure about that. As I’ve already pointed out, the Sylvari of the Pale Tree are uniquely altered by the presence of the Dream. The dreamless sylvari of Malyck’s tree seem somewhat more neutral. Malyck mentions feeling “a great sense of distance, and loss.” Distance to what and loss of what is anyone’s guess at this point.

On the Sylvari incorruptibility, I speculate that what goes on when Zhaitan attempts to corrupt one may be somewhat akin to what happens to the Branded in Edge of Destiny. When Kralkatorrik hits them with his breath a second time they’re instantly killed. In other words, one dose of draconic energy turns you into a servant, two turns you a corpse. If the sylvari are animated and sentient based off some connection with Mordremoth, whether inherent or acquired, it’s entirely possible that another ED trying to corrupt them would result in their deaths, much the same way it did for the twice-branded.

SpeedFiend.4521:

BrunoBRS.5178:

snip

As for the Sylvari being good, I’m not so sure about that. As I’ve already pointed out, the Sylvari of the Pale Tree are uniquely altered by the presence of the Dream. The dreamless sylvari of Malyck’s tree seem somewhat more neutral. Malyck mentions feeling “a great sense of distance, and loss.” Distance to what and loss of what is anyone’s guess at this point.

On the Sylvari incorruptibility, I speculate that what goes on when Zhaitan attempts to corrupt one may be somewhat akin to what happens to the Branded in Edge of Destiny. When Kralkatorrik hits them with his breath a second time they’re instantly killed. In other words, one dose of draconic energy turns you into a servant, two turns you a corpse. If the sylvari are animated and sentient based off some connection with Mordremoth, whether inherent or acquired, it’s entirely possible that another ED trying to corrupt them would result in their deaths, much the same way it did for the twice-branded.

well i did say “or at the very least neutral”. malyck is amnesiac though, so for all we know his distance and loss is feeling disconnected from his tree’s dream. i mean, if there are multiple trees, then there really is nothing that makes our pale tree special enough to have a pre-life dimension where all knowledge of all living sylvari is collected. the only thing our sylvari have different is that they were raised under ventari’s teachings, which is something separate from the dream itself.

i just don’t buy the sylvari being “naturally” minions and our pale tree indocrinated all of them with magical powers that really came out of nowhere. ventari’s tablet has no magic powers, and ventari himself didn’t do anything special to the tree. you can try and spend a lifetime reciting ventari’s teachings to an icebrood, it won’t go nearly as well.

not to mention, the sylvari are INFINITELY more intelligent than any standard minion we’ve seen so far. at best, only champions retain any semblance of intelligence.

The problem is that you see the nightmare court as being pure evil, which is too simplistic a view.

If you do any of the personal story instances, and some of the other events, and it is clear that they have various motivations and justifications for what they do. Misguided, wicked, possibly insane, but not pure evil. No more evil than the flame legion for instance.

Dragon minions are pure evil. They are remorseless, merciless and utterly without conscience.

On the topic of intelligence, I expect that the diminished smarts of ED minions is part of their corruption and intended usage. A common minion has no need for intelligence, as seen in Edge of Destiny with the corrupted ogres. They’re suffused with Kralkatorrik’s will, having no more thoughts, only the desire to serve. As the playable sylvari are not under the sway of their intended master, this opens them up to being intelligent creatures, in much the same way the ogres were prior to being branded. The stronger minions/champions are shown as having specialised or leadership roles, where intelligence is not just handy, but required.

As for the NC, no, they’re not inherently evil, they just don’t agree with the teachings of Ventari. Seeing as they reject the noble/peaceful/whatever stance of the other sylvari doesn’t necessarily mean they follow the complete opposite morality. Acts of wickedness and such, however, are the means by which one is “transformed”, and as we’ve seen, this transformation is permanent and irreversible. Sounds a lot like ED corruption, don’t you think? To a much less severe degree (they’re not mindless and not under the complete control of an Elder Dragon), but then again, none of them have been corrupted in the same way we’ve seen with a more conventional dragon minion. There has been no champion or ED to see the process through to completion (or perhaps “do it the right way”), but the similarities are there. Now if a NC sylvari were to be subjected to the Forgotten cleansing ritual that worked for Glint and the orrian chicken, we’d have some definitive proof. Until we see how/if the NC are affected by the rise of Mordremoth, it’s too early to tell for sure.

A further addendum to the Eternal Alchemy video speculation
As we’ve seen, the 6 orbs are grouped on either side of what supposedly represents Tyria, and each of them is conveniently opposite one of the other orbs.

We have Primordus/Kralkatorrik, Bubbles/Jormag and Mordremoth/Zhaitan. A curious thing to note, however, is that the dragons are also conveniently grouped by a common theme.

Primordus, Mordremoth and the DSD have a certain aspect of “creation”. Primordus creates minions from lifeless stone, the DSD creates minions from simple water and Mordremoth’s minions are a corruption of nature. The last ones are the wildcard here – are they simply overgrown plants or are they otherwise based on the corruption of a living creature is the question here.

Kralkatorrik, Zhaitan and Jormag belong to a category somewhat best described as “repurposing”. They all corrupt things that are already alive (or, in Zhaitan’s case, were previously alive).

Since we know the EDs are hostile to each other, but what if it’s not a deathmatch, but a team deathmatch? The environment vs the inhabitants, if you will. This also opens up the possibility that the “opposed” dragons are each weakened by the presence of the other, thereby balancing each other out.

Since we know that magic in Tyria is finite, is possible that each set is attuned to a specific kind of magic? That would have Primordus/Kralkatorrik fighting over the “earthy” magic, Jormag /DSD fighting over the “watery” magic and Zhaitan/Mordremoth fighting over the “lifeforcey” magic.

With Zhaitan (supposedly) dead, this offers a possible explanation how/why Mordremoth has managed to go on the offensive so soon after waking. We know that Zhaitan’s remains hold a great deal of magic, but even alive the EDs bleed magic. Reasonably we can expect this happens a lot faster in the case of a dead one.

We now know that the magic of Tyria flows along the ley lines (where else was it going to go, Detroit?). Coincidently, Mordremoth seems to actively be using the ley lines (which now have more Zhaitan flavour than ever) in a way that no ED so far has. How his activity (and that of Scarlet) coincides with Zhaitan’s demise could provide further evidence of this.

The fate of Zhaitan’s remains was mentioned as being covered in this season’s releases, so if we see the Mordrem/tendrils going after his corpse (whether it is still under Pact control or perhaps taken by the Inquest or, hell, even the Zephyrites) we’ll know for sure that something fishy is in the works. Surely the magic in Zhaitan’s corpse would be of interest to the other EDs, yet none of the ones who were already active at the time of his death have taken an interest in the matter. What if he’s just the wrong flavor for them, and just what the doctor ordered for Mordremoth?

Wanderer.3248:

If you do any of the personal story instances, and some of the other events, and it is clear that they have various motivations and justifications for what they do. Misguided, wicked, possibly insane, but not pure evil. No more evil than the flame legion for instance.

Dragon minions are pure evil. They are remorseless, merciless and utterly without conscience.

Those people seem to be in the very growing minority though. If Cadeyrn was still in charge things might have been different, but Faolain seems to like to support and nurture the darker aspects of the Court.

SpeedFiend.4521:

Acts of wickedness and such, however, are the means by which one is “transformed”, and as we’ve seen, this transformation is permanent and irreversible. Sounds a lot like ED corruption, don’t you think?

No it doesn’t. Dragon corruption is physical, as well as mental. Even the Icebrood are transformed by dragon magic, not by their acts of wickedness. Dragon minions are monstrosities. Some (probably most) are stated to be soulless. It’s irreversible because they are dead, or frozen, or turned to crystal. In most cases their minds are gone. In most cases there is nothing human left to reverse.

The corruption of the Nightmare Court is mental and emotional. Their souls are not removed. They still have their minds and memories, and emotions. They can still know love. What sort of dragon minion can love someone? Or fear someone? Nightmare Courtiers cannot be physically distinguished from Sylvari, except by their choice of armor and weapons. Gavin, for instance, appeared completely normal. Yes it’s irreversible. But then so is addiction.

Dragon minions, where they have independent minds, are entirely merciless and unrelenting. They do not know fear. They most certainly do not know love. Even in cases where they seem to retain some of their original mind or soul (as in the case of the King of Orr), those minds are bent completely to the will of the Dragon. If Faolain was a dragon minion, do you think she would have removed the blood poison from Caithe? Would Gavin have fought an honourable duel for the White Stag?

You can’t be turned back from being soulless, and dead. Even if you could remove the dragons influence, what remains wouldn’t be human. Zhaitans minions would be corpses. The Icebrood would still be frozen, Kralkatorrics minions would still be crystalline. There is no evidence that that could be undone, or that what remained wouldn’t simply cease to function.

I doubt that the distinction between dragons that corrupt, and dragons that create is absolute. Zhaitan corrupted and twisted most of his minions, but his greatest champions were dragons, and were not corrupted from anything that we know of. The same goes for Jormag and Kralkatorrik.

Erukk.1408:

Wanderer.3248:

If you do any of the personal story instances, and some of the other events, and it is clear that they have various motivations and justifications for what they do. Misguided, wicked, possibly insane, but not pure evil. No more evil than the flame legion for instance.

Dragon minions are pure evil. They are remorseless, merciless and utterly without conscience.

Those people seem to be in the very growing minority though. If Cadeyrn was still in charge things might have been different, but Faolain seems to like to support and nurture the darker aspects of the Court.

Faolain is still an independent, thinking creature with her own motives. She still shows emotion and a twisted kind of love for Caithe. She is no more evil than many wicked people, or Charr, or Asura or Norn. In some ways she is no more evil than the sort of insane and obsessive person who stalks a celebrity.

Wanderer.3248:

Erukk.1408:

Wanderer.3248:

If you do any of the personal story instances, and some of the other events, and it is clear that they have various motivations and justifications for what they do. Misguided, wicked, possibly insane, but not pure evil. No more evil than the flame legion for instance.

Dragon minions are pure evil. They are remorseless, merciless and utterly without conscience.

Those people seem to be in the very growing minority though. If Cadeyrn was still in charge things might have been different, but Faolain seems to like to support and nurture the darker aspects of the Court.

Faolain is still an independent, thinking creature with her own motives. She still shows emotion and a twisted kind of love for Caithe. She is no more evil than many wicked people, or Charr, or Asura or Norn. In some ways she is no more evil than the sort of insane and obsessive person who stalks a celebrity.

Technically, ED minions aren’t evil, they just know what they want (delicious dragon treats) and don’t care if anything gets in the way. Quoth the overused zephyrite line from memory, the dragons are no more evil than an earthquake or lightning strike.

As for ED minions being soulless… They aren’t. The 7th Reaper points out that Grenth wants his priest returned. That is to say his soul, as Grenth doesn’t drag your physical body to the Underworld, just your spirit. I’m not saying the NC are full-blown dragon minions, I’m saying they’re a few small (self-taught) steps into the process that, once completed by Mordremoth, will result in the dragon minionification we’re familiar with.

BrunoBRS.5178:

malyck is amnesiac though, so for all we know his distance and loss is feeling disconnected from his tree’s dream.

He’s not an amnesiac. That’s a false presumption made by the PC due to Malyck not knowing jack about the Pale Tree, Dream, and Grove. If you go with Caithe, this is pointed out as clearly a the moon on a cloudless day.

Whether he had a Dream is inconclusive but evidence leads to “no” while still retaining some degree of empathy.

SpeedFiend.4521:

As for ED minions being soulless… They aren’t. The 7th Reaper points out that Grenth wants his priest returned. That is to say his soul, as Grenth doesn’t drag your physical body to the Underworld, just your spirit.

Some aren’t soulless. Some are.

We don’t know the case for minions created out of lifeless matter like destroyers and seemingly Mordrem, nor are we really clear on the case for icebrood and branded. But with risen, it seems to be “grunts are soulless, mid-ranked and higher have souls.”

Independent thinking creatures with their own motives can’t be pure evil? You have to remember that the Elder Dragons, as well as the more intelligent minions, are independent thinking creatures with their own motives as well.

I’ll agree that there are some members in the Nightmare Court that could be considered “noble”, but like I said before, they are the growing minority in the Court. Faolain might be independent (as far as we know), and she might have her own motives, but that doesn’t negate the fact that she still promotes acts of evil for the sake of evil alone, because acts of murder, torture, violence, and madness is the only way to turn the Dream to Nightmare.

In some ways she is no more evil than the sort of insane and obsessive person who stalks a celebrity.

Do stalkers often like to exercise their control by poisoning their celebrity obsessions to put them in “do or die” situations?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

SpeedFiend.4521:

As for ED minions being soulless… They aren’t. The 7th Reaper points out that Grenth wants his priest returned. That is to say his soul, as Grenth doesn’t drag your physical body to the Underworld, just your spirit.

Some aren’t soulless. Some are.

We don’t know the case for minions created out of lifeless matter like destroyers and seemingly Mordrem, nor are we really clear on the case for icebrood and branded. But with risen, it seems to be “grunts are soulless, mid-ranked and higher have souls.”

That’s a good point, I’d forgotten about Aliyana. Back to my point – the NC are devoted to spreading the nightmare, which I believe to be Mordremoth’s influence. While not enough to truly corrupt them a-la-branded/icebrood it certainly appears that the nightmare transformation is a step in that general direction. Presumably, based on what station they hold when/if they do get fully corrupted, we can expect the ones in charge to retain their souls, while the grunts could go either way.

Nightmare Courtiers retaining souls if corrupted by Mordremoth require one very specific question to be answered:

Do sylvari even have souls?

We never see one, and as proven by sylvari in the Grove near the cultural armor vendors:

Warden: It’s a good day to return to the dream.
Warden (2): What do you mean?
Warden: When a warrior says, “It’s a good day to return to the Dream,” it means it’s a good day to die.
Warden (2): I see. How do you know we return to the Dream when we die.
Warden: I don’t. It’s just wishful thinking.
Warden (2): Oh. Then, I won’t wish you a good day.

It’s been ~25 years and the sylvari aren’t sure if they go to the Dream, returns to the Pale Tree, or the Mists (per Carys during The Source of Orr if you did both Act with Wisdom and Vigil’s invasion plan – not on wiki, sadly), or what-have-you.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Nightmare Courtiers retaining souls if corrupted by Mordremoth require one very specific question to be answered:

Do sylvari even have souls?

Didn’t they add a something in-game awhile ago theorizing that ghosts are energy constructs? I can’t for the life of me remember where I saw it though.

Anyway, it was wondering the same with the Sylvari. Them being energy constructs given physical form by the Pale Tree(s).

SpeedFiend.4521:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

SpeedFiend.4521:

As for ED minions being soulless… They aren’t. The 7th Reaper points out that Grenth wants his priest returned. That is to say his soul, as Grenth doesn’t drag your physical body to the Underworld, just your spirit.

Some aren’t soulless. Some are.

We don’t know the case for minions created out of lifeless matter like destroyers and seemingly Mordrem, nor are we really clear on the case for icebrood and branded. But with risen, it seems to be “grunts are soulless, mid-ranked and higher have souls.”

That’s a good point, I’d forgotten about Aliyana. Back to my point – the NC are devoted to spreading the nightmare, which I believe to be Mordremoth’s influence. While not enough to truly corrupt them a-la-branded/icebrood it certainly appears that the nightmare transformation is a step in that general direction. Presumably, based on what station they hold when/if they do get fully corrupted, we can expect the ones in charge to retain their souls, while the grunts could go either way.

I do think it’s a product of Mordremoth’s influence but it’s been so tainted by change that it simply coincides – operating parallel but to a much smaller degree. Mordremoth isn’t at the helm of the NC’s dealings and thanks to The Pale Tree(s) his secret is supposedly being kept so incredibly safe that the NC feel compelled out of some unseen motivation. While Mord could very well be the catalyst to the Nightmare, because of his lack of true involvement things have progressed so slow that the NC has done so on it’s own and in a way may have even perverted the original intent.

Taking note of how minions generally aren’t necessarily smart but conscious standards, I think of Mord being more so hands on the pot – there’s a forcefield preventing him from putting his hands into said pot.

Erukk.1408:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Nightmare Courtiers retaining souls if corrupted by Mordremoth require one very specific question to be answered:

Do sylvari even have souls?

Didn’t they add a something in-game awhile ago theorizing that ghosts are energy constructs? I can’t for the life of me remember where I saw it though.

Anyway, it was wondering the same with the Sylvari. Them being energy constructs given physical form by the Pale Tree(s).

Ventari is by no means Sylvari and yet his ethereal form was incorporated into the Dream. So I wonder if maybe the Pale Tree(s) is creating copies of an original so when the original passes, they’re taken into The Dream. Similar in idea to what created Razah: a culmination of mist that latched itself, figuratively, onto the nearest thing it could relate to and then modeled itself based on it but in essence it was just a mass left alone and allowed to take form.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

BrunoBRS.5178:

malyck is amnesiac though, so for all we know his distance and loss is feeling disconnected from his tree’s dream.

He’s not an amnesiac. That’s a false presumption made by the PC due to Malyck not knowing jack about the Pale Tree, Dream, and Grove. If you go with Caithe, this is pointed out as clearly a the moon on a cloudless day.

Whether he had a Dream is inconclusive but evidence leads to “no” while still retaining some degree of empathy.

it’s been forever since i did that story, but didn’t malyck also have no idea how he ended up there? he was like “i woke up here lost, these guys (nightmare court) helped me, so i helped them”, or something like that. i’m thinking more the situation he was found and less his connection to the dream.

Erukk.1408:

Independent thinking creatures with their own motives can’t be pure evil? You have to remember that the Elder Dragons, as well as the more intelligent minions, are independent thinking creatures with their own motives as well.

Reminds me of the old joke. A woman asks her husband “what are you feeling?” “Hungry” says the husband.

If you count hunger, and a desire to destroy all life as feelings, then yes minions have feelings too. But they don’t love. They never try and justify themselves. They never have a reason for what they do; and they don’t need a reason. Most of them seem incapable of even comprehending the idea of justifying what they do.

Erukk.1408:

Do stalkers often like to exercise their control by poisoning their celebrity obsessions to put them in “do or die” situations?

Stalkers have been known to try and kill the person they are stalking. Kidnap, torture, killing etc. And if you asked them, they would have strange, convoluted, perverse reasons for doing it. So too, the nightmare court. They have their reasons, even if their reasons would only make sense to the insane.

SpeedFiend.4521:

That’s a good point, I’d forgotten about Aliyana. Back to my point – the NC are devoted to spreading the nightmare, which I believe to be Mordremoth’s influence. While not enough to truly corrupt them a-la-branded/icebrood it certainly appears that the nightmare transformation is a step in that general direction. Presumably, based on what station they hold when/if they do get fully corrupted, we can expect the ones in charge to retain their souls, while the grunts could go either way.

Well, that’s a totally circular argument. Obviously the nightmare court are devoted to spreading the nightmare, but the idea that the nightmare is the working of Morderemoth is just an assumption.

Secondly, even the lowest level courtiers show emotion and independent thought, (including, especially, doubt) which is the complete opposite of what we see in dragon minions.

Guess time is limited and what you run into is entirely based upon what you happen to see, strike you, and click on … I fully agree on almost everything OP said so far, in fact, I have been the exact same thing, be it with different arguments. Mainly this: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/zaitan-dark-green-orb/first#post4222396 which is the last most comprehensive version of it…

Where do I disagree, that is the dream/nightmare thing … why? Because a nightmare is still a dream… The dream is where the Sylvari ‘experience’ everything that the other Sylvari already experienced, so that each batch is that much wiser than being born as a blank. (or at least, have the option to experience everything, we do not know for sure they experience everything, as a lot of them are still very inquisitive and naïve.) The Dream even relays new information during their life, although as a Sylvari player I have yet to experience this.

The difference between ‘normal’ Sylvari and ‘nightmare’ is the things they focus on, the nightmare court focus on all the horrid in the dream, and consequently view the world as a horrid place in which you need to be horrid to survive and thrive. The normal Sylvari either focus on the positive or on the whole. The dream’s influence on the still living Sylvari may be the reason for the Soundless, why experience things through the mind and body of others, if the experience of ones self is much more fulfilling.

Will the nightmare court be willing to subvert to Mordremoth, yes I think so, based upon the below though it remains to be seen if that is possible (aka. is there even a Mordremoth’s corruption). Then again, based upon Scarlet’s experience, it seems to be quite possible that there is a Mordremoth’s corruption. It may turn out to work different than f/e Jormag’s or Kralkatorrik’s corruption though. Simply because of how it all works on Tyria, in regards to which dragons are capable of what…

Another thing we seem to agree upon is the system in the Diagram in the vision. In this regard https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/livingworld/lwd/The-Eternal-Alchemy-The-Orbs-Theory/first#post4222527 this thread may be of interest for you. As it hints on way more system setup features for all the Dragons.
Likely this thread is interesting as well: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/lore/lore/Perspective-Dragons-Gods/first#content it is far from complete, but I think I am on the right track, mainly because almost all the things that I am left with are sort of ‘white’/monk features, that might be represented by the white centre in the diagram,

Wanderer.3248:

If you count hunger, and a desire to destroy all life as feelings, then yes minions have feelings too. But they don’t love. They never try and justify themselves. They never have a reason for what they do; and they don’t need a reason. Most of them seem incapable of even comprehending the idea of justifying what they do.

Just because they Elder Dragons and their minions don’t show any sort of love, that sets them up as examples of pure evil? I would argue that love any in either of the groups would be a bad bad thing, but I’ll get to that later.

Other than that, I was talking about the higher ranking minions that has shown independent thinking and not mindlessness. They are single minded in their motives, in that they will destroy their enemies and spread their master’s influence, but they have also shown planning, thoughtfulness, and subterfuge to enact their plans.

They same came be said for the Nightmare Court. Their entire existence, because there is no leaving or retiring from the NC, after being converted is to “free their people” by spreading the Nightmare enough to corrupt the Pale Tree. Each member and/or group in the Nightmare Court may have different methodologies in how to do it, but their motives are all the same. “Spread Nightmare, corrupt Pale Tree”.

Sure, the NC’s members might be more intelligent on average than ED minions, but that doesn’t mean they are all that different. If it wasn’t for the fact that the EDs wield so much power, I would consider them a much more dangerous group. I would still consider the NC more evil than the EDs though.

Stalkers have been known to try and kill the person they are stalking. Kidnap, torture, killing etc. And if you asked them, they would have strange, convoluted, perverse reasons for doing it. So too, the nightmare court. They have their reasons, even if their reasons would only make sense to the insane.

This , I would consider a much more evil act than mindlessly killing someone, and why I consider them more evil than the EDs. To the Elder Dragons, the minions are simply a meanings to an end, and the intelligent minions leading them are something to more easily deal with the problems that get in their way. Us, the players and lesser races, are simply ants. It’s nothing personal, but we’re a nuisance and in their way.

The Nightmare Court, no matter their convoluted reasoning, take pleasure in watching people suffer, because that’s what a good majority of them live for now. They go out of their way to create new forms of torture, new ways of killing, and new ways to drive people into insanity, because it all leads back to their single-minded goal to spread the Nightmare and corrupt the Pale Tree.

You mentioned love earlier, but that isn’t in anyway really a good thing, since it could be used as a driving force for acts of good as well as evil. You used it to show the difference between the groups, but I wouldn’t consider the “love” shown in the NC as actually love. It is more inline with fanaticism. Which would go along wonderfully with your stalker metaphor, and it’s shown a lot in the relationship between the Elder Dragons and their minions.

I think there’s a rather large misunderstanding of the NC going on here. The NC killed/torture/commit acts of wickedness because in doing so their negative emotions become part of the Dream. This strengthens the Nightmare, turning more sylvari toward it, the endgame being to turn the Pale Tree itself to Nightmare. Why the whole Nightmare spiel sounds like the meddling of Mordremoth to me is pretty simple – while EDs aren’t evil, we’ve had insight into the mind of one before. Kralkatorrik is quite the poster child for negative emotion, his mind holding nothing but fury, rage and hunger.

I feel like the NC are similar to the Sons of Svanir. Evil – to a point – due to their constructed belief system. They are probably more likely to become servants of their ED of choice (Jormag for the SoS and Mordremoth for the NC) due to these beliefs. Becoming a servant to Mordremoth would most certainly be a much more efficient method of injecting “The Dream” with “Nightmare” than any other methods they have used before.

Essentially, what I am trying to point out is that they are not “almost-but-not-quite dragon minions” just much more susceptible and have a much higher chance of becoming corrupted because of their chosen belief system.

The Sons of Svanir revere Jormag as a spirit akin to the other Great Spirits, though. It’s a bit different.

The Nightmare Court focus on negative emotions because they rebel against Ventari’s wisdom and wish to see the Pale Tree free of what they consider his corruption. I wouldn’t say that makes them necessarily more corruptible, especially since of the two Sylvari we know might have been under Mordremoth’s influence, neither was of the Court. In fact, both were Soundless, which goes completely against the Court’s goal of darkening the Dream.

DraconicDak.9340:

The Sons of Svanir revere Jormag as a spirit akin to the other Great Spirits, though. It’s a bit different.

The Nightmare Court focus on negative emotions because they rebel against Ventari’s wisdom and wish to see the Pale Tree free of what they consider his corruption. I wouldn’t say that makes them necessarily more corruptible, especially since of the two Sylvari we know might have been under Mordremoth’s influence, neither was of the Court. In fact, both were Soundless, which goes completely against the Court’s goal of darkening the Dream.

but the sons of svanir aren’t corrupted yet. however, once they go through a specific ritual, they’re corrupted and on the process of becoming icebrood. they willingly corrupt themselves.

as for the nightmare court, the thing that, to me, is eerily similar to dragon corruption is that turning into a courtier is 1- basically brainwashing, with the person losing a lot of their personality in the process, and 2- a one-way process, with no way of coming back. both of those things you learn on the shield of the moon sylvari story.

Except if we go by the evidence, it’s more likely that the Dream is somehow protecting the Court from Dragon influence, than that their attempts to corrupt it somehow make them more corruptible.

SpeedFiend.4521:

A further addendum to the Eternal Alchemy video speculation
As we’ve seen, the 6 orbs are grouped on either side of what supposedly represents Tyria, and each of them is conveniently opposite one of the other orbs.

We have Primordus/Kralkatorrik, Bubbles/Jormag and Mordremoth/Zhaitan. A curious thing to note, however, is that the dragons are also conveniently grouped by a common theme.

Primordus, Mordremoth and the DSD have a certain aspect of “creation”. Primordus creates minions from lifeless stone, the DSD creates minions from simple water and Mordremoth’s minions are a corruption of nature. The last ones are the wildcard here – are they simply overgrown plants or are they otherwise based on the corruption of a living creature is the question here.

Kralkatorrik, Zhaitan and Jormag belong to a category somewhat best described as “repurposing”. They all corrupt things that are already alive (or, in Zhaitan’s case, were previously alive).

Since we know the EDs are hostile to each other, but what if it’s not a deathmatch, but a team deathmatch? The environment vs the inhabitants, if you will. This also opens up the possibility that the “opposed” dragons are each weakened by the presence of the other, thereby balancing each other out.

Since we know that magic in Tyria is finite, is possible that each set is attuned to a specific kind of magic? That would have Primordus/Kralkatorrik fighting over the “earthy” magic, Jormag /DSD fighting over the “watery” magic and Zhaitan/Mordremoth fighting over the “lifeforcey” magic.

With Zhaitan (supposedly) dead, this offers a possible explanation how/why Mordremoth has managed to go on the offensive so soon after waking. We know that Zhaitan’s remains hold a great deal of magic, but even alive the EDs bleed magic. Reasonably we can expect this happens a lot faster in the case of a dead one.

We now know that the magic of Tyria flows along the ley lines (where else was it going to go, Detroit?). Coincidently, Mordremoth seems to actively be using the ley lines (which now have more Zhaitan flavour than ever) in a way that no ED so far has. How his activity (and that of Scarlet) coincides with Zhaitan’s demise could provide further evidence of this.

The fate of Zhaitan’s remains was mentioned as being covered in this season’s releases, so if we see the Mordrem/tendrils going after his corpse (whether it is still under Pact control or perhaps taken by the Inquest or, hell, even the Zephyrites) we’ll know for sure that something fishy is in the works. Surely the magic in Zhaitan’s corpse would be of interest to the other EDs, yet none of the ones who were already active at the time of his death have taken an interest in the matter. What if he’s just the wrong flavor for them, and just what the doctor ordered for Mordremoth?

I had this idea long ago in response to the materials we have in game: the 8 elemental lodestones, cores, sliver, what have you. They are at least 4 of the elder dragons and 4 of the non corrupted forms of their magic or something else entirely.

Onyx Lodestone vs putid essense: Mordy? vs Zhaitan
glacial lodestone vs corrupted lodestone: Bubbles (his frozen magic)? vs Jormag
molten lodestone vs destroyer lodestone? ? vs Primordus
charged lodestone vs crystal lodestone ? vs Kalkatorrik

Yeah doesn’t quite fit then. unless we have three more good entities that rivals dragon’s power. Or maybe 4 more new dragons that are similar for the items that don’t fit existing dragons.

Well other idea was that in response to this, but IC as well on my guardian a couple of months back, she was saying that the dragons were probably like this as you stated above: 3 that create from something and three that use existing things. She then stated that the cores, lodestones, etc could be devised to be made into opposite polarity weapons to combat them.

I came up with this long ago but the RP community said it was to op and god mode to make weapons to kill dragon minions using the cores and lodestones of opposite energies. As if it existed, we’d have killed Zhaitan much easier and earlier like (one cannon and dead instead of pressing 1 and 2 to beat him in the dungeon).

DraconicDak.9340:

Except if we go by the evidence, it’s more likely that the Dream is somehow protecting the Court from Dragon influence, than that their attempts to corrupt it somehow make them more corruptible.

i’m not saying it’s conclusive evidence that they’re minions. my point has been countered by pointing out how the courtiers seem much smarter than any minion we’ve seen so far.

however, i thought that connection i brought up was worth mentioning, because something is up with them.

@Yumiko, in regards to the lodestones:

Going off of: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lodestone
We would have:
- Onyx Lodestone: Natural form ?!
- Charged Lodestones & Crystal Lodestones: Kralki, just crystal ones are simply decharged.
- Corrupted lodestones: Zaithan
- Glacial: Jormag
- Destroyer & Molten: Primordus, one corrupted one close enough to melt but not corrupted

In this regard it may also be interesting to look at GW1 lodestones:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=lodestone

dinner time i’ll leave this to you, you may find some interesting stuff

Erukk.1408:

Just because they Elder Dragons and their minions don’t show any sort of love, that sets them up as examples of pure evil?

Other way around. Dragon minions are incapable of love.

Faolain still loves Caithe, ergo she cannot be a dragon minion.

Erukk.1408:

The Nightmare Court, no matter their convoluted reasoning, take pleasure in watching people suffer, because that’s what a good majority of them live for now. They go out of their way to create new forms of torture, new ways of killing, and new ways to drive people into insanity, because it all leads back to their single-minded goal to spread the Nightmare and corrupt the Pale Tree.

While it’s true that many of the Court do take a perverse pleasure in what they are doing, it is ostensibly a means to an end, not the end in itself.

For the Elder Dragons, the destruction is an end in itself.

The point is not which form of evil is greater. It is that the two forms of evil are manifestly different.

Erukk.1408:

You mentioned love earlier, but that isn’t in anyway really a good thing, since it could be used as a driving force for acts of good as well as evil. You used it to show the difference between the groups, but I wouldn’t consider the “love” shown in the NC as actually love. It is more inline with fanaticism. Which would go along wonderfully with your stalker metaphor, and it’s shown a lot in the relationship between the Elder Dragons and their minions.

The nightmare court show emotion. Arguably, in some cases, too much emotion; anger, pride, vanity, envy, lust, wrath, obsession. Negative emotions, but still the emotions of thinking, feeling creatures.

The Dragons do not corrupt by feelings. Their control is far more brutal and far less subtle. Dragon minions don’t become Stalkers. They show no emotion, not even twisted emotion. They have no feelings.

SpeedFiend.4521:

I think there’s a rather large misunderstanding of the NC going on here. The NC killed/torture/commit acts of wickedness because in doing so their negative emotions become part of the Dream. This strengthens the Nightmare, turning more sylvari toward it, the endgame being to turn the Pale Tree itself to Nightmare. Why the whole Nightmare spiel sounds like the meddling of Mordremoth to me is pretty simple – while EDs aren’t evil, we’ve had insight into the mind of one before. Kralkatorrik is quite the poster child for negative emotion, his mind holding nothing but fury, rage and hunger.

You have to keep in mind though that the Pale Tree has been keeping secrets. So I doubt even the NC know of Mordremoth’s existence. While I agree at the base, Mord’s influence has had a huge role to play it’s been so diluted that really their idea of the Nightmare is a creation of their own. The NC would only be able to describe Mord’s influence as some source of motivation that cannot be identified.

It’d be more like his influence is a pre-cursor but due to his lack of participation, the NC have gained their own belief as to what that unseen driving force maybe; desire.

At least that’s what I would take from it if Mord had a role in creating the Pale Tree(s) and grandfathering the Sylvari.

Wanderer.3248:

Faolain still loves Caithe, ergo she cannot be a dragon minion.

I still question whether that’s absolute. Because something expresses emotion, they’re immune to corruption. For example, in Mass Effect Saren set out to understand Sovereign in the hopes of defeating it, which consequently exposed him more to indoctrination. What we see in the NC is little to zilch exposure, so of course they don’t convey true corruption.

Kellach expressed emotion even though he was quite clearly falling under Zhaitan’s corruption, he was manipulated in thinking that in obtaining Jennah’s blood that he would be able to free himself from the Orrian artifact. So I would just as much argue that Dragon corruption can quite vary depending on exposure. Kralk for example can even kill his own minions by delivering too much. My point there being is that the NC, well Sylvari in general, have been kept in the dark to such a degree that they wouldn’t know.

The Caedern and Faolain probably think their motivations are legitimately a force of their own will. But there’s no telling whether there is some unseen source of influence by Mord that is edging them in a direction that he would be able to benefit from.

Wanderer.3248:

Dragon minions don’t become Stalkers. They show no emotion, not even twisted emotion. They have no feelings.

Did you miss the Branded and Risen parts of the game?

The Branded are trying to follow the Dragonbrand to get to Kralkatorrik. You could almost call them “stalkers” if you will, and the Risen in Orr are utterly devoted to Zhaitan. Their devotion and love for the gods got replaced with love and devotion for Zhaitan.

So, yes. While we don’t have a full understanding of the emotional spectrum of the Elder Dragons themselves, their minions do still feel emotions. It’s just that all their emotions like love, desire, anger, and empath were corrupted, twisted, and remade by the Elder Dragons by just like they were.

Ronin.7381:

snip

That’s pretty much how I see it.

The NC pursue Nightmare because they’ve seen it in the Dream. They believe that Ventari’s ideals corrupt their true nature, making the sylvari valiant and peaceful. Since they only have the Dream and Nightmare to choose from, they embrace what they see as their “true” nature. If the Dream is a byproduct of Ventari’s soul being absorbed by the Pale tree, that would explain why Malyck’s tree has no dream. Coincidently, this would make the Nightmare a force trying to tear the sylvari free from the Dream, or, as I see it, Mordremoth trying to reclaim his minions. While the NC don’t realise this, their struggle to subvert the Dream drives them toward the control of their intended master.

Another reason I see the Dream as a unique byproduct of the Pale Tree accidentally sucking up Ventari’s soul has a lot to do with the way it works. As we’ve seen, the spirits of people in the mists (barring those amnesia’d or otherwise touched by Abaddon) are basically an incorporeal amalgamation of their memories and personality during life. The Dream is basically just that – a valiant, peaceful personality (that of Ventari) and an amalgamation of memories. Since Ventari’s soul now has the Pale Tree as it’s vessel. The sylvari born of the Pale Tree are imbued with a fraction of this essence, accounting for the knowledge they gain from the Dream. Their experiences are also transferred back to the Dream, being that each of them has a fraction of the whole. It is therefore not unlikely that the sylvari who believes that, upon death, they return to the Dream is right: The fraction of Ventari’s essence returns to the Pale Tree to rejoin the big chunk still there, as opposed to permanently breaking off and moving on to the mists piece by piece.

Ronin.7381:

Wanderer.3248:

Faolain still loves Caithe, ergo she cannot be a dragon minion.

I still question whether that’s absolute. Because something expresses emotion, they’re immune to corruption.

They’re not immune. They’re just not corrupted.

Define an empty basket to not contain anything. If a basket contains an apple, then logically it cannot be empty. That doesn’t mean it can’t be emptied. But to empty it, you must remove the apple.

Dragon minions are empty. Devoid of love. I don’t think I can put it in simpler terms.

Ronin.7381:

The Caedern and Faolain probably think their motivations are legitimately a force of their own will. But there’s no telling whether there is some unseen source of influence by Mord that is edging them in a direction that he would be able to benefit from.

Whenever you use the phrase “but there’s no telling” in an argument it’s a sure sign of shifting the burden of proof.

Obviously, Faolain’s love could be as fake as Kasmeers dress. But so could anything else.

Maybe the whole of Tyria is just some intricate illusion, and isn’t real at all.

Erukk.1408:

The Branded are trying to follow the Dragonbrand to get to Kralkatorrik. You could almost call them “stalkers” if you will, and the Risen in Orr are utterly devoted to Zhaitan. Their devotion and love for the gods got replaced with love and devotion for Zhaitan.

I’m not sure if you put that forward as a serious argument, or you’re just trolling.

The risen love Zhaitan??? Scary weird.

Seriously, if I thought that the writers intended that these rotting walking corpses experienced love for their freaky undead dragon master I’d just uninstall the game and possibly burn my PC. And try never, ever, to think of this again.

Ronin.7381:

Kellach expressed emotion even though he was quite clearly falling under Zhaitan’s corruption, he was manipulated in thinking that in obtaining Jennah’s blood that he would be able to free himself from the Orrian artifact.

It’s not clear that he felt anything. Certainly not love. He acted out of a knowledge that he was corrupted, and had an extremely callous and unfeeling plan for removing that corruption. He didn’t care (or possibly even notice) who got in his way. His lack of awareness extended to not even realising that he was surrounded by a shambling horde of undead.

Wanderer.3248:

Ronin.7381:

Wanderer.3248:

Faolain still loves Caithe, ergo she cannot be a dragon minion.

I still question whether that’s absolute. Because something expresses emotion, they’re immune to corruption.

Their not immune. They’re just not corrupted.

Define an empty basket to not contain anything. If a basket contains an apple, then logically it cannot be empty. That doesn’t mean it can’t be emptied. But to empty it, you must remove the apple.

Dragon minions are empty. Devoid of love. I don’t think I can put it in simpler terms.

Yes but see there’s the crutch, exposure. What I’m thinking is that the exposure is so incredibly subtle, that it is as if it’s not even there figuratively speaking. Without Mord being able to guide the NC in his image for example, clearly they find their own way. Again, the image of hands not being able to dig into the pot, but hold it.

Whenever you use the phrase “but there’s no telling” in an argument it’s a sure sign of shifting the burden of proof.

That is the definition of Speculation in a nut shell. I do not claim facts, I merely speculate.

We simply do not know the specifics. Accounts of exposure are all across the board as there is no proof saying that corruption is not a step-by-step process.. You’re using conjecture . Therefore I’m inclined to suggest that NC are not under the full effects and instead working in tandem. The same exposure that creates the branded can kill them if amplified via Kral’s will which indicates a range of degree – that makes a very compelling variable that I don’t think we should dismiss.

Not to mention there’s the whole Pale Tree presence that limits the truth to her children and bringing me back to my original point. Mord has been asleep, Mord has been locked away, so to speak – were the Nightmare to be a byproduct of Mord’s sparse-influence, that NC continued on their own and driven by an unseen force they just as quickly rationalize as being emotionally driven. But as we know in psychology positive and negative interactions can fuel one’s emotions in the real world, it’s called empathy and apathy .

Wanderer.3248:

Ronin.7381:

Kellach expressed emotion even though he was quite clearly falling under Zhaitan’s corruption, he was manipulated in thinking that in obtaining Jennah’s blood that he would be able to free himself from the Orrian artifact.

It’s not clear that he felt anything. Certainly not love. He acted out of a knowledge that he was corrupted, and had an extremely callous and unfeeling plan for removing that corruption. He didn’t care (or possibly even notice) who got in his way. His lack of awareness extended to not even realising that he was surrounded by a shambling horde of undead.

I could just as much argue that he was desperate . All he sought was a cure, everyone who stood in his way was seen as an obstacle that prevented him from ascertaining his false freedom. He was told a lie by a seer whom he believed couldn’t tell a lie in his “desperation” to free him from the corruption, and desperation is an emotion. You’re trying to rationalize your inability to actually conduct a psyche evaluation on each individual under the affects of corruption, this doesn’t dismiss anything as not being a valid counter. He was clearly under pressure of corruption but yet not quite a minion therefore implying there are steps some are more gratuitous than others.

EDIT: One minor point I’d like to address….

It’s not clear that he felt anything.

Didn’t you just explain this in that very same post above? You address my behavior:

Whenever you use the phrase “but there’s no telling” in an argument it’s a sure sign of shifting the burden of proof.

…but in the quote above you make the same assertion but change the words. Still the same context.

If you wish to correct or point something out, it’s best not to become an example yourself. Just saying. That’s called hypocrisy . What I’m basically trying to say is that you defined speculation but you considered my point less valid, you can’t use speculation to rule out speculation, I do not claim facts for this reason because it turns into a “pot-calling-kettle”. While I do not think you’re wrong, I do have reason to believe otherwise and simply not agree. So I would suggest not trying to discredit any user if you’re going to use the same ammunition.

/sigh

There are more types of love than those of the romantic and/or sexual nature. So yes, we could easily say they love Zhaitan, just not in a romantic or sexual sense. It’s the type of fanatical love where you are utterly devoted to someone, and the only thoughts on your mind is how you can please them.

Erukk.1408:

/sigh

There are more types of love than those of the romantic and/or sexual nature. So yes, we could easily say they love Zhaitan, just not in a romantic or sexual sense. It’s the type of fanatical love where you are utterly devoted to someone, and the only thoughts on your mind is how you can please them.

I can see what Wander is trying to say even if I disagree with talking in absolutes. Fanaticism is actually a fair comparison as we hear the Risen speaking, practically praising Zhaitan. So I wouldn’t necessarily say they are 100% emotionless at all.

SpeedFiend.4521:

The NC pursue Nightmare because they’ve seen it in the Dream.

Other way around. The Court create Nightmare.

The Court do not intend the Nightmare to convert other Sylvari. They can do that easily enough themselves. Dark Vigils, Dark Hunts and other acts of evil are used to drive Sylvari (sometimes forcibly) to Nightmare. They kidnap and torture (often physically) their recruits.

By converting the Sylvari, the Court seek to eventually convert the entire dream, and ultimately the Pale Tree. Once all (or maybe just a majority) of Sylvari have fallen to Nightmare, they believe that the Pale Tree herself will side with them.

These points are a rather large hole in the idea that anyone is using the Nightmare to corrupt the Courtiers. It’s the other way around.

It also rather demolishes the idea that the Pale Tree is using The Dream to protect Sylvari. The Pale Tree didn’t create The Dream. The Sylvari create The Dream. After all, it’s based on their experiences, memories and emotions.

Erukk.1408:

/sigh
There are more types of love than those of the romantic and/or sexual nature. So yes, we could easily say they love Zhaitan, just not in a romantic or sexual sense.

So for starters, it’s nothing like what Faolain felt for Caithe, and which was requited, for a time. Minions of Zhaitain do not have feelings towards other creatures (except possibly hate and hunger). You will not see a branded with a crush on Logan, or an Icebrood making the moves on Zojja. It’s just silly.

Equally silly is the notion of a minion of Mordemoth having romantic inclinations for Caithe.

And, in fact even the “emotion” of fanaticism, if it is such a thing, is not something I would ascribe to Dragon minions. Sons of Svanir are fanatics. Icebrood are slaves. If they have any feelings, they are their master’s feelings, not their own.

Wanderer.3248:

SpeedFiend.4521:

The NC pursue Nightmare because they’ve seen it in the Dream.

Other way around. The Court create Nightmare.

The Court do not intend the Nightmare to convert other Sylvari. They can do that easily enough themselves. Dark Vigils, Dark Hunts and other acts of evil are used to drive Sylvari (sometimes forcibly) to Nightmare. They kidnap and torture (often physically) their recruits.

By converting the Sylvari, the Court seek to eventually convert the entire dream, and ultimately the Pale Tree. Once all (or maybe just a majority) of Sylvari have fallen to Nightmare, they believe that the Pale Tree herself will side with them.

These points are a rather large hole in the idea that anyone is using the Nightmare to corrupt the Courtiers. It’s the other way around.

It also rather demolishes the idea that the Pale Tree is using The Dream to protect Sylvari. The Pale Tree didn’t create The Dream. The Sylvari create The Dream. After all, it’s based on their experiences, memories and emotions.

Other other way around. The Dream predates the firstborn sylvari, as does the Nightmare.

Wanderer.3248:

Other way around. The Court create Nightmare.

Uh…

The Nightmare Court is a home to those sylvari who reject the Ventari Tablet’s teachings, embrace the nightmares encountered within the Dream of Dreams, and are attempting to understand them, while giving life to them with acts of evil.

They do not “create” the nightmare, they influenced its progression because of its existence prior to their knowledge. They spread it. An unseen force driving individuals who encounter it, to question their purpose. You’re confusing the Nightmare within the Dream of Dreams with the Nightmare Court, the NC benefit from the Nightmare but they did not create it.

Eventually, Cadeyrn had managed to bring the Firstborn Faolain into his fold, though this was after Faolain had first touched the Nightmare herself, and she later replaced him as leader, titling herself the Grand Duchess.

SpeedFiend.4521:

Other other way around. The Dream predates the firstborn sylvari, as does the Nightmare.

It’s quite clear in the Wiki and from in-game events that Nightmare Courtiers themselves create new recruits. They don’t need the Nightmare to do their recruiting, and they don’t wait for recruits to come to them. And it is also quite clear (and their stated aim) that they do this to influence the Dream, and the Tree. The Nightmare court are creating the Nightmare.

The Dream exists “like a well into which memories and thoughts” are poured. Before the Firstborn it was only the memories of the Pale Tree, but now it is the Sylvari that fill the well, including the Nightmare Court.

Ronin.7381:

They do not “create” the nightmare, they influenced its progression because of its existence prior to their knowledge. They spread it. An unseen force driving individuals who encounter it, to question their purpose. You’re confusing the Nightmare within the Dream of Dreams with the Nightmare Court, the NC benefit from the Nightmare but they did not create it.

Eventually, Cadeyrn had managed to bring the Firstborn Faolain into his fold, though this was after Faolain had first touched the Nightmare herself, and she later replaced him as leader, titling herself the Grand Duchess.

They most definitely do create the Nightmare. The memories and experiences of the Nightmare Court are the Nightmare. They perform evil acts so that the memory and experience of those actions enters the dream.

“There are dark corners in the Dream: traumatic memories, evil impulses. They say that is our true nature, and they do as much evil as possible in order to fill the Dream with such things.”
- Caithe speaking of the Court.

“She’s a sylvari firstborn, like me. We were very close…until she fell into Nightmare. Now she seeks to corrupt the Dream as the Grand Duchess of the Nightmare Court.”
– Caithe speaking of Faolain.

Whatever darkness Faolain and Caithe encountered was outside the Dream, and Faolain seeks to corrupt the Dream, not the other way around.