Guild Wars 2

So here in the real world we spent a few millenia treating alcoholism as a failure of willpower. We didn’t need to be sympathetic or give a crap that these people were dying because it was a failure of their moral fiber than brought them to this state. According to these enlightened folks my dad drank himself to death ‘because he was weak’. Rather than any sort of neurochemical loop that ate him alive from the inside out.

I just want to say how incredibly cringeworthy it is to hear that the difference between being a dragon-enslaved “zombarii” and those heroic souls not consumed by ‘the call’ that we look at with such suspicion is “willpower”. That those sylvari who had their free will snatched away ARE AT FAULT in their own total domination because they didn’t, you know, want to resist enough. Weak willed. Active participants in their own victimization.

Specifically we’re talking about Sylvari who were so weak willed that they left their home and enlisted in the Pact to fight and die against slavering undead monsters. Sounds pretty much like a bunch of folks really lacking in ‘character’ and ‘grit’, right?

I’m… sorry about your father.

First off, sorry about your father.

As to the crux of it: we only have a minor hint that what keeps sylvari from being corrupted is willpower. It isn’t a confirmed case just yet. Personally, I think/hope it’s a bit more than just willpower – which itself is a rather cookie cutter excuse and far too widespread of meaning to really be credible.

Edit: I would like to note that it is heavily implied that the Dream is related to the sylvari’s protection against dragon corruption – for all Elder Dragons, and Mordremoth simply has the “easiest time” in corrupting sylvari (aided by the fact that the Pale Tree was weakened).

I think mordrem spawn was supposed to be basically the default setting for Sylvari. What keeps them from being such is likely a number of things, Pale Tree protection (though waning) would be one of them. Personally, I think there are more factors involved, such as the fact that the Pale Tree was taken farther from Mordremoth’s influence before it was planted, thus giving it the freedom to grow on its own and make Sylvari with their own free will, but I think the willpower excuse is a pretty weak one. It’s probably less like enticing weak willed Sylvari and more like reactivating a dormant gene inside the Sylvari. Much like changing a gene in a chicken can mean the difference between growing feathers, as they do now, or growing scales, as their far back ancient ancestors did. No amount of coercion can make the chicken NOT grow scales, once the gene is altered.

Nike.2631:

Specifically we’re talking about Sylvari who were so weak willed that they left their home and enlisted in the Pact to fight and die against slavering undead monsters. Sounds pretty much like a bunch of folks really lacking in ‘character’ and ‘grit’, right?

You make a very good point. I am curious to see how the sylvari situation is handled going forward. As someone who plays a sylvari, I am curious to see how the storyline will be impacted and whether or not there will be an explanation as to why some sylvari are corrupted while others are not.

As others say before: sorry about your father.

To the willpower: I don’t actually think it is about willpower, at least I hope it is not, because that would be really a pretty boring reason.
But, I think it is in some way related to the dream, not to willpower. Why do I think that? Because it seems like Cannach will join your group in the next season(you can see him standing next to Braham and the others in the trailer) and I don’t think we would take a Sylvari that could just stab us in the back while we sleep with us. So what does make him special? His dream, or rather the lack thereoff.
Of course, it can not be as simple as denying the dream, Aerin was a soundless and he has gone completely insane, but most sylvari are influenced their whole life by the dream, maybe said dream was just a “command” of the dragon, that the pale tree twisted in some way or another to make them into good people?

Sorry about your dad, OP. My dad was an alcoholic, too.

Anyway, here’s my theory: it wasn’t the character of the characters that determined whether they became minions, it was the gear they were using that determined who was spared. All the ones using full zerker became minions. The three or four using anything with toughness, vitality, or healing power came through okay.

Nike.2631:

So here in the real world we spent a few millenia treating alcoholism as a failure of willpower. We didn’t need to be sympathetic or give a crap that these people were dying because it was a failure of their moral fiber than brought them to this state.

That is true, though. We know what happens to someone once they’re addicted to alcohol and how it becomes hard to recover once they are already affected. But the main way to prevent it and to recover is still through will.

It’s worrisome to say otherwise since you could then see people who are addicted to alcohol as unfortunate victims of external circunstances, as opposed to people who need to will to get better and whose recover is their own responsibility.

Nike.2631:

Specifically we’re talking about Sylvari who were so weak willed that they left their home and enlisted in the Pact to fight and die against slavering undead monsters. Sounds pretty much like a bunch of folks really lacking in ‘character’ and ‘grit’, right?

I’m not really sure the concept of ‘grit’ applies like you’re saying to the Sylvari. You are assuming that joining the army is something that required a strong will; and while that may be true for human beings in the real world, I’m not so sure the same applies to the Sylvari in Tyria. If a Sylvari feels that his/her wyld hunt is to enlist for the Pact, wouldn’t it be expected of a weak-willed being to follow the flow and just do what he/she thinks he/she is meant to do, instead of fighting it and trying to find one’s own path?

Test.8734:

That is true, though. We know what happens to someone once they’re addicted to alcohol and how it becomes hard to recover once they are already affected. But the main way to prevent it and to recover is still through will.

It’s worrisome to say otherwise since you could then see people who are addicted to alcohol as unfortunate victims of external circunstances, as opposed to people who need to will to get better and whose recover is their own responsibility.

I hope you never have cause to learn better.

Test.8734:

I’m not really sure the concept of ‘grit’ applies like you’re saying to the Sylvari. You are assuming that joining the army is something that required a strong will…

Are you perchance in the armed services? I was. It’s not something you decide to do lightly. And you don’t last long if you can’t master your own impulses.

Test.8734:

…and while that may be true for human beings in the real world, I’m not so sure the same applies to the Sylvari in Tyria. If a Sylvari feels that his/her wyld hunt is to enlist for the Pact, wouldn’t it be expected of a weak-willed being to follow the flow and just do what he/she thinks he/she is meant to do, instead of fighting it and trying to find one’s own path?

In my experience it doesn’t particularly matter why you take the difficult path – the fact is you did it. Does it matter if you think you’re a coward but keep doing courageous things? The people you help probably don’t think so.

Nevets Crimsonwing.5271:

I’m… sorry about your father.

Thank you, both to you and others who have expressed condolences. If there’s an ‘upside’ to a long death, those who survive have some time to prepare for the end.

Nike, my father also drank himself to death, which came less than a year ago though the process was of course extremely drawn out. I sympathize with your loss, but I disagree with your conclusions.

Alcoholism isn’t something that can’t be fought, and while no, it’s not entirely about willpower, willpower is a factor. The most important part is that you have to want to quit. After that, you have to have the willpower to stick with it, even when you feel the urge to drink. My father never wanted to, even when his drinking, and his abusive, destructive behavior when drunk, cost him his job and his family. Even when it was indisputably killing him, he didn’t want to stop.

My mother, on the other hand, put alcohol aside despite having also been an alcoholic, because she saw and acknowledged what her excessive and constant drinking was doing to her children and she wanted to quit. And then she stuck with it, despite the constant temptation presented by the presence of alcohol in the house. It was extremely difficult for her, and saying it has no relation to willpower is an insult to her perseverance and strength. It insults all recovering alcoholics who crave drink, but face those feelings and say, “No. Not now, not today.”

Promoting a victim mentality towards alcoholism is unhealthy. Alcoholism is a disease with genetic roots, but it’s a disease that can’t be put into remission without the active effort of the alcoholic. My father bought into the victim mentality and felt that the world should rearrange itself to comfort and tolerate him in his disease rather than acknowledging that his disease was damaging himself and everyone around him and trying to change. That is what killed him.

Now, as to the sylvari – comparing Mordremoth’s control to alcoholism is a fundamentally flawed comparison, frankly. Mordremoth’s control is not a drug of any sort; sylvari don’t dip into it socially, it isn’t used by many who have no problems with it and use it in moderation. And it, like the other dragons’ control (so far as we currently know!), is not something that can be broken free of without special, entirely external influences, once it’s established.

I find it far more likely that proximity and the as-yet unspecified protection that the Pale Tree offers them is what prevents them from being controlled. Those who obeyed the dragon’s call (that we know about so far) all ventured close to Mordremoth’s main body, and had lost the protection of the Pale Tree whether through active rejection (Soundlessness) or the Pale Tree’s damaged state that weakens her.

Everything in life is a matter of choice.

Vanthian.9267:

Everything in life is a matter of choice.

You’ve never been mugged, have you?

Nike.2631:

So here in the real world we spent a few millenia treating alcoholism as a failure of willpower. We didn’t need to be sympathetic or give a crap that these people were dying because it was a failure of their moral fiber than brought them to this state. According to these enlightened folks my dad drank himself to death ‘because he was weak’. Rather than any sort of neurochemical loop that ate him alive from the inside out.

I just want to say how incredibly cringeworthy it is to hear that the difference between being a dragon-enslaved “zombarii” and those heroic souls not consumed by ‘the call’ that we look at with such suspicion is “willpower”. That those sylvari who had their free will snatched away ARE AT FAULT in their own total domination because they didn’t, you know, want to resist enough. Weak willed. Active participants in their own victimization.

Specifically we’re talking about Sylvari who were so weak willed that they left their home and enlisted in the Pact to fight and die against slavering undead monsters. Sounds pretty much like a bunch of folks really lacking in ‘character’ and ‘grit’, right?

Sorry about your dad.

Its a plot devices and an easy way to saying why one would turn over another. Or it might be as simple as the mother tree and no longer shield them all. And as she unable to tell anyone what is going on, we only have peoples out side view of it being down to willpower.

And don’t confuse “Character”, “grit”, with “willpower”. I’m not putting anyone down when I say this, but life is different for everyone, just because someone appears strong, its never granted that they are. I would like to consider my self a strong willed person. I gave up smoking by one day just stopping. That was 4 years ago. But with that said, when my son almost died at 2 days old, that almost broke me. It had nothing to do with “willpower”, some things are just too much for us to handle, or are a lot harder to deal with than we ever could have imagined. You can take what life throws at you or it brakes you. And unless you’ve been through this it’s hard for someone who’s not been through something like that to understand.

That’s where in story telling willpower is used to show someone’s inner strength. To show what they can and can’t take. It’s used to make a hero stand out in a crowed.

We all need to remember that GW is a game, a story, and in no way reflects real life. As I said I’m sorry for your loss, and maybe your way of handeling things is by wanting to make other aware of the fact willpower has nothing to do with addiction, and I agree. but trying to compare addiction to a fictional story plot device use of willpower, it’s just not the same thing. I’m not trying to tell you how to feel, as I don’t know how you’re feeling, I’ve not lost a close family member or friend in a long time, and when I did it was from an accident and I was still a kid, so didn’t really have an idea of the gravity of it all.

Nike.2631:

Vanthian.9267:

Everything in life is a matter of choice.

You’ve never been mugged, have you?

Twice in my case. First time was just a attempt to snatch my phone, the second was actually two guys with a knife. So from my experience yes their was a very clear choice, granted some options were more reasonable and others more foolhardy, but the options were still there.

My condolences to all of you who have suffered losses.

As for sylvari and “willpower”, I have a theory which might explain why some of them fell and others’ minds remained strong enough that it forced Mordremoth to send his minions (the Mordrem Guards) to capture the unaffected sylvari to convert them at another location (as seen in Heart of Thorns demo).

What if all the unaffected sylvari had Wyld Hunts and the ones who were affected by Mordremoth and turned instantly hadn’t yet received theirs? We know from sylvari Personal Story (and from some open world NPCs too if my memory serves) that not all sylvari immediately receive Wyld Hunts upon entering the world and that it might take time for some of them to get theirs. We also know that once a sylvari finishes their Wyld Hunt, they might receive a new one over time (or at least this is implied), and they can also misinterpret their Wyld Hunt. Nightmare Court have Dark Hunts which seem to act similarly to Wyld Hunts: for instance, the Knight of Embers’s Dark Hunt was to capture the Harbinger who turned out to be Malyck, a sylvari from another Pale Tree. The anomaly to Wyld Hunts are Caithe and Sylvari PC who appear to share the same Wyld Hunt for some unspecified reason as we learn in early sylvari PS; usually no sylvari share the same Wyld Hunt.

Perhaps having an active Wyld Hunt grants a sylvari enough “willpower” to resist Mordremoth’s siren song whereas those yet to receive their Wyld Hunts are drawn in by the dragon’s call which compels them to act like a Wyld Hunt would? One could imagine that Mordremoth plants this urgent need to “serve the Jungle Dragon” into the sylvari’s mind, and this call forces the affected sylvari into action just like Caithe and sylvari PC are driven to finish their Wyld Hunts and Trahearne had the need to purify Orr.

This would give us a nifty explanation why Laranthir remained unaffected by the call (his Wyld Hunt is tied to the reason he joined the Vigil and protected his mind from the dragon) and would also hint that not all Nightmare Courtiers turn to the dragon. Perhaps Faolain and several other Courtiers have their Dark Hunts which allow them to resist Mordremoth’s influence while other Courtiers who haven’t yet received their Dark Hunts would embrace the dragon more willingly? Granted, we won’t know the Nightmare Court’s stance on this whole Mordremoth debacle for sure until we get to play Heart of Thorns where their relationship will be explored (despite what the story trailer seemed to imply).

The thing is we don’t know much about the sylvari who have fallen pray to Mordremoth’s influence. If the demo has shown us anything, it’s that many sylvari are still unaffected by the corruption. We don’t really know why, or how to predict which sylvari will be affected. For all we know, every one of the sylvari who fell to the attack was one of the Soundless, which is very much a conscious choice on the sylvari’s part. (This is highly improbable, but still possible.)

I don’t like using the alcoholism comparison, in part because of your story and in part because it’s not exactly apt, but I’m going to try using it as an analogy. You are a known alcoholic, or at least have the genetic make-up for it. Do you avoid alcohol entirely? What would happen if someone – for whatever reason – slipped some alcohol into your drink? For reasons beyond your control, you would be exposed to this “corruption”, if you will, whether you wanted to be or not. This is how I’d prefer to think of the sylvari being corrupted by Mordremoth, not just a fight of your will versus Mordy’s. At least, until we have more information.

Rognik.2579:

I don’t like using the alcoholism comparison, in part because of your story and in part because it’s not exactly apt

My example was chosen to make people uncomfortable. A story about usurping identities — the theft of all agency — deserves just a little more consideration than “oh, it was just the weak ones.” Maybe not a lot more thought (it’s just a game ) but more than the easy whitewash the preview trailers have given us.

but I’m going to try using it as an analogy. You are a known alcoholic, or at least have the genetic make-up for it.

That, actually, would be describing me. And my little brother.

Do you avoid alcohol entirely?

I’m certainly mindful of it. In my case I drink twice a year – a glass of champagne at new year’s eve and a few cups of sake on my birthday. Always in the company of friends. Beyond that I do not tempt fate. My “will” shall hopefully go on being untested. My brother spent years terrified of the stuff after what it did to his dad. He’s mellowed a bit with coaching, but he certainly absorbed the lesson. He knows the hooks could be inside him. He’s had a few wild evenings but strictly in the company of watchful friends aware of his heritage.

What would happen if someone – for whatever reason – slipped some alcohol into your drink? For reasons beyond your control, you would be exposed to this “corruption”, if you will, whether you wanted to be or not. This is how I’d prefer to think of the sylvari being corrupted by Mordremoth, not just a fight of your will versus Mordy’s. At least, until we have more information.

I agree the analogy breaks down slightly because alcohol is comparatively a slow agent, if a familiar one to most forum-goers. But we have other real world examples to draw on. Replace ‘alcohol’ with ‘heroin’ and now you are dealing with something that can consistently crack your whole world with a single encounter. Mordremoth: the worst of all possible drug trips.

In some ways I’d just like it made more visceral what a terrible thing has been unleashed upon the Sylvari. I guess I’m hoping that we see a little more of a spectrum in the future. Not just a few resistant Sylvari heroes eager to leap back into the fight, but also survivors who emerged unscathed and want nothing more than to flee/withdraw before their luck runs out, filled with doubt that they could resist again if pressed. Warriors in the Pact rear echelons who do not complain or are even happy that they are to maintain watch at the Brand or the far north rather than having their souls risked in Meguma. And civilian Sylvari far from the conflict, terrified that they might be taken at any moment by the faintest whispering of the call. There is no running from this blight: Mordremoth’s grasp encompasses everything.

This is an entire civilization finding out they are all time-bombs just waiting to detonate, tearing apart kin and friend and folk. The hooks… these hooks… are inside every one of them.

A great and well thought out analogy Nike. I believe, thinking of Mordy like a latent drug addiction…is very plausible. It would be great to see some side stories that would depict some of the sylvari that chose to remain away from the jungle for that very reason. I agree that saying it’s nothing more than a matter of will power is a weak way of depicting that inner struggle.
Lets hope that the Devs have some good story telling up their sleeves on this one.

Nike.2631:

My example was chosen to make people uncomfortable.

The problem of course being that it’s a conversation ender because (I’d like to imagine) most of us have been socialised not to belittle someone else’s personal tragedies. So yeah, its kinda like meeting a nice girl or guy at a party and then they start talking about their furry-fetish. Most people will be uncomfortable, but it certainly does facilitate conversation.

CureForLiving.5360:

The problem of course being that it’s a conversation ender because (I’d like to imagine) most of us have been socialised not to belittle someone else’s personal tragedies. So yeah, its kinda like meeting a nice girl or guy at a party and then they start talking about their furry-fetish. Most people will be uncomfortable, but it certainly does facilitate conversation.

Thankfully it hasn’t been a conversations stopper. People have been universally polite and I appreciate that, but even better what has followed has been thoughtful. That’s the conversation I was hoping to have and I’m grateful for that too .

In any kind of personal struggle willpower is always a factor. For now it’s a temporary excuse for why not all Sylvari are affected and given that the story hasn’t advanced yet, it is a sufficient one. I can live with it until HOT.

That said, given the level of storytelling we’ve seen so far I expect one of three things to happen.
1: No explanation. It was just pure willpower that stopped it.
2: The pale tree protected them for reasons and magic babble stuffy things.
3: There will be no reason for it for 2 years because they may not know and then release an explanation in the future story that ends up being a partial retcon to what happened.

What I don’t expect is an in depth story driven discovery of what’s going on right now. It’s going to feel hollow and weak for a while but eventually we’ll get used to “willpower” and shrug it off like all the rest of the loosely covered plot devices.

Maybe I’m a little cynical when it comes to MMO storytelling.

Perhaps it went something like this, but internalized and with flowers.

Nike.2631:

Thankfully it hasn’t been a conversations stopper. People have been universally polite and I appreciate that, but even better what has followed has been thoughtful.

Yes, but given we’re on the internet and the natural disposition to be confrontational particularly in regards to contentious subjects such as these the fact alone that people have been universality polite might indicate that they’re very possibly editing themselves to conform to ingrained ideas of politeness.

CureForLiving.5360:

Yes, but given we’re on the internet and the natural disposition to be confrontational particularly in regards to contentious subjects such as these the fact alone that people have been universality polite might indicate that they’re very possibly editing themselves to conform to ingrained ideas of politeness.

Which in itself should be considered AMAZING, don’t you think ? As you say, the internet is not usually referred to as ‘a hotbed of civility and restraint’…

And much like the courage mentioned here – Acting politely is still Being polite no matter why you’re doing it. Life is filled with cases where you can “fake it ’til you make it.”

“Willpower” is difficult to define and ends up not being terribly useful.

At the same time, stories in which the characters have agency are so much more powerful than those in which characters are simply puppets of their accumulated circumstances.

I’ve always felt that the Dragons’ corruption was a little too simplistic. For the most part, it seems like something that renders characters completely passive. Corruption is about being in the wrong place at the wrong time. Corruption is a one-way street, and there is no hope of redemption. The tablets influenced the Pale Tree, who then protects the Sylvari.

In that case, where is the struggle against the temptation of the dark side? Where is the hope that someone who succumbs may yet be pulled back into light?

There seem to be hints in the story that maybe ArenaNet is not completely tied to characters who are either passively corrupted or protected, but it remains to be seen how that will play out in the story.

The discussion of whether drug addiction is a disease or moral failing is complex, emotionally charged, and really not fit for these forums. Putting that aside, giving characters the ability to resist, give in to, and even come back from corruption opens up a lot more interesting story options.

Here’s my two cents:

Sylvari have stronger willpower than humans. It’s just a little more proof that Sylvari aren’t “plant humans”. ’Nuff said.

From what I heard, it isn’t willpower at all. It has to do with a sylvari’s Wild Hunt. The Wild Hunt is a compulsion, a remnant of Mordremoth’s influence, channeled through the Pale Tree into something “positive.” However, with Mordremoth’s rise, he uses the Wild Hunt compulsion to corrupt sylvari.
The reason the player character and Trahearne haven’t been affected by Mordremoth, is because they both finished their Wild Hunts. Many of the Pact sylvari were there, precisely because their Wild Hunt drew them to the Pact—and, ultimately, made them betray the Pact.

Weindrasi, that’s a rather twisted take on what was actually said, which was that Mordremoth’s influence uses the same aperture in a sylvari’s mental protection that Wyld and Dark Hunts do. That doesn’t mean that Hunts come from Mordremoth – and it would be absolutely bizarre if they did, since many hunts do nothing to further the dragon’s control of the world.

Additionally, the player character has not finished their Wyld Hunt. It “rested” after killing Zhaitan, but the PC sylvari states that they felt their hunt again in Living Story Season 2.

@Windrasi: Willpower is a part of it. Where you got the Wyld Hunt thing was from the Points of Interest Episode 18. From the summary:

The Elder Dragon can implant thoughts in its creations—thoughts they may even believe to be their own—and only a combination of immense willpower and the protection of the Pale Tree can prevent Mordremoth from taking control. Sylvari receive calls to action in the form of the Wyld Hunt—or the Dark Hunt, for Nightmare Courtiers—and these compulsions act as an access point for Mordremoth’s influence.
https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/points-of-interest-episode-18-summary/

So I would imagine that Soundless = no protection; Dream/Nightmare=Condom for Mordy’s mind penetration; Wyld/Dark Hunts=holes in condom.

And nothing says that the Wyld Hunts are a remnant of Mordremoth’s influence – just that he uses Wyld Hunts (and Dark Hunts) to implant his influence. Doesn’t mean they’re similar to his influence (like Qarinus claims), just that he uses them.

Actually, there are strong indicators that the Nightmare Court have been influenced by him from the start. In many ways, the Nightmare can be considered Mordremoth’s early attempts to gain control of the Sylvari under the Pale Tree’s protection.

The protection is the first layer of security for Sylvari, the second layer is their own willpower. Sylvari such as Tahearne and Caithe, as well as the PCs, are not going to be affected as strongly, though dealing with that might actually make a good personal story line for Sylvari in HoT.

I don’t think Wyld Hunts are a remnant of Mordremoth’s influence, so much as they are a creation of the Pale Tree. It’s something he can use, as Sylvari are vulnerable to his control, but the Wyld Hunts were not his creation.

There are indicators for the Nightmare being somehow related to Mordremoth, however it’s curious that they mentioned the Nightmare’s equivilant of Wyld Hunts for how Mordremoth is able to access sylvari. And it is curious for two reasons:

1. Dark Hunts is a highly obscure piece of lore. It has one mention in the entire game – just like the norn forgiveness ritual or the Snafu Prize. To make mention of it means it has relevance for being mentioned – meaning Dark Hunts may no longer be obscure lore.
2. If Nightmare was Mordremoth’s influence, then he would have no need to go about sending impulses through the Dark Hunts. He’d take control outright because they’ve fallen completely to Nightmare.