Guild Wars 2

I see the DR tour guide for the Ossan Quarter was changed yet again, from the darkskinned woman that made sense.

sighs

*Waits to see what the Elonan expansion is going to be like

WulfKaiser.7920:

Oh yeah, let’s not forget one of the most famous Krytan natives of all time, Saul D’Alessio; yeah that’s not a European sounding name or Latin inspired character model at all, he looks more like an African man to me…

“D’Alessio” is an italian surname (there’s a popular singer called Gigi D’Alessio, for istance). Alessio is a common first person name, the D means Di (let’s say “of”). It’s like an italian version of surnames like O’Connor or similar.

Olithia.4635:

ancient Egyptian, we all know that ancient Egyptians were africans not arabs just like those two.

Not to derail the thread but if you mean ancient egyptians were african in genetic background I’m sorry to inform you that there is no substantial evidence to support this.

The notion that the majority Egyptian populace was of said decent is part of a counter-racial claim against an accusations of scientific racism against early historians, Archeologists who may have put racial biased in their records.(However claiming it was a conspiracy to insert ones race in place of anothers history to discredit them from having ever founded the civilization on the grounds of racism doesn’t mean the accuser is instantly correct out of the possibility) No one truly knows exactly what ancient Egyptians are given multiple artistic depictions of various skin colors and various traits associated with at least three different races.

As for the actual topic in this thread, I’m going with the theory that most of the original ethnic
Krytans had died due to Zhaitians flooding and that the fleeing ascalonians populated the kingdom. despite this, the majority of humans do not look completely Caucasian at all, there is defiantly a stronger presence of Canthain in their faces if anything could be said about the intermixing at divinities reach.

Also, it’s quit obvious that Elonia is still around and that we could be getting playable egyptain style undead so I wouldn’t get too upset.

Oh, yeah – more arabic/african/egyptian inspired looks would be great.

As it is I had no idea when I started playing that Kryta was not a generic british fantasy country.

Fenes.6013:

Oh, yeah – more arabic/african/egyptian inspired looks would be great.

As it is I had no idea when I started playing that Kryta was not a generic british fantasy country.

It’s more European than British. There isn’t enough blighty or heads on spikes :P

Oh and frills! There aren’t enough frills.

So Bard you’re saying that the ancient Egyptians built the Sphinxes with wide noses and large lips just because they wanted to? That Hitler blew off the noses and lips by shooting them because he was just bored? That statues with large lips and wide noses, egyptian statures at that were purposely made to look like their Ethiopian and Nubian cousins in ancient Kush/Nubia? I don’t know too many places in the world that direct neighbors don’t look like each other. And Ethiopians do not always have wide noses many of them have thin noses.

An excerpt from the link listed below I hope you read it in its entirety

“Some of the most often quoted historians are Strabo, Diodorus Siculus, and Herodotus.¹⁰⁵ Herodotus states in a few passages that the Egyptians were black/dark (depending on the translation used.) Herodotus states that a Greek oracle was known to be from Egypt because she was “black”, that the natives of the Nile region are “black with heat”, and that Egyptians were “black skinned with woolly hair”.⁹¹ Lucian observes an Egyptian boy and notices that he is not merely black, but has thick lips.⁹⁷ Diodorus Siculus mentioned that the Ethiopians considered the Egyptians a colony.⁹⁹ Appollodorus, a Greek, calls Egypt the country of the black footed ones.⁹⁷ Aeschylus, a Greek poet, wrote that Egyptian seamen had “black limbs.”¹⁰⁶ Gaston Maspero states that “by the almost unanimous testimony of ancient [Greek] historians, they [Ancient Egyptians] belonged to the African race, which settled in Ethiopia.”[107

Were these Grecians lying? I mean surely the people who were there at the time would have an idea what others look like. Because if they are to be discredited here by what they saw then why listen to anything else they have to say?

A picture in the wiki article, apparently National Geographic agrees with the Grecians http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:National_Geographic_-_King_Tut_face.jpg

The original article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheikh_Anta_Diop

And the cover from the Nightfall original soundtrack, wasn’t it wonderful when Anet did its homework like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sANPBRr1Jxs
That guy looks like he could be related to ol Tut of the National Geographic recreation, he is from Istan, the Egypt inspired Island nation, home of the Sunspears.

Now, back to the conversation at hand
I’m wondering why also the sister that you rescue in the personal story if you click you both are from Elona, is not Elonan at all.

Hederotus wasn’t known for his accuracy, claiming that on any history test will give you an incorrect answer. The guy very much mystified his works, often claiming divines did certain things.

In addition, the color of ones skin isn’t a give away of ones racial background, I assure you. I’ve seen East Indians with skin about the same description that Herodotus described.

Now, I won’t deny that the peoples that make up modern day Ethiopia were a part of the Egyptian people, there is certainly evidence that they were there. But my point is that they were not the majority.

I’ve named several Grecians. To pick one out of all the others is amusing. Also the man on the cover of the issue of National Geographic looks quite Ethiopian don’t you think?

You are aware that Ethiopians could seldom be considered the purity of ethnic african? You questioned why I would assume a country wouldn’t be like their neighbors and mix? Ethiopians are an example of said mixing. Think of it like Argentina, not everyone there is thoroughly mixed between introduced and indigenous people.

I find it amusing that you actually believed the SS blew the nose off the Sphinx and that they did so under the pretense of hiding the racial background of a key civilization in western civilization.

I made a mistake, I’m sorry.

I would love to see the proof you have where the Eithiopians are not considered Africans, please provide links good sir.

As I said, walking down the street King Tut would be considered to be a black man in that picture.

And I would take the words over the eyewitness ancient greeks over anyone born after that time period.

Barack Obama is mixed, but how do people classify him? Is there anything about him that makes one say upon seeing him and not knowing "HEY that’s a MIXED guy!, they sure aren’t doing that down in Tea Party territory and I would be willing to wager a million dollars on that.

I’m also willing to bed that alot of people were shocked seeing Queen Jennah who are not familar with the lore. Wanna bet more than half didn’t think about her being mixed?

Anyway this is derailing the thread, I apologize for my one mistake. My wiki link provides more than enough evidence.

I grew up around Ethiopians here in nyc, trust me they get thrown into the black box just like any other african/african american.

Such liars those Grecians are, they all bought into Herodotus’s story! Fraud I tell you!

Did you ever ask if Ethopians themselves considered themselves Black African? Some may, but being that they are of a sematic speaking people they generally prefer to considered Arabs, which a large portion of their heritage is composed of (Hence the more Arab like facial features). Ethopains are like the peoples of Turkey, Morroco and Southern East Europeans, they are a kittentail of various races.

One of the ethnic issues in today’s world is considering race based off skin color and nothing else. Did you know that Thomas Jeffersons famous “servant”, Sally Hemmings was only 1/8th African? on any practical term that pretty much justified she was white, but because her skin color wasn’t, she wasn’t considered it.

Also, Heterodus could have been describing Nubians, Which were living in egypt and often copied egyptian culture, mistaking them for the entire Egyptian people. I believe they discovered that some Egyptian tombs were actually Nubian tombs.

I’ve provided links to back up what I am saying, the question about Ethiopians is even answered in my wiki link. You so far have only provided conjecture and opinions and nothing to even back up your arguement. I think we are done here. You should read that wiki link its really very good.

Now back to wondering why Queen Jennah is darker than every important Elonan in the game, are the Krytans now the new dark people?

Oops, nevermind can’t say that she is really the only dark character that’s important of note. I mean hell there arent any Krytan nobles in the personal story for Christ’s sake.

I guess I answered my own question.

Wonders if there is going to be a new area for dark people to come from

There isn’t any real scientific poles stating “What etheopeans consider themselves and what the world considers them”. Some could consider themselves black African, others would take offense to it.

The reason I’m not going around linking wikipedia articles is because the same page you’re getting information from is also the same page that throws around EVERY theory about the ethnicity of egyptians. Why would I link the same page when you clearly ignored 90% of the theories in favor of the one that applied to you. Today I asked a history major friend about it, he said the most accepted theory regarding the instances of black Egyptians is the fact that those were Nubian, Not Egyptians. History professor couldn’t answer, because there isn’t enough evidence on exactly what Egyptians were, and because it attracts controversy and people claiming coverups and scientific racism.

Clearly you are seeking some sort of ancient role model to base linage connections off of or to pull something by association( like a Scandinavian claiming that because his people are distantly related to Persians(or any other near east Caucasoid), his people therefore also hold the title of the feats of the Persian empire). It doesn’t work that way.

Something for those truly interested in what I am speaking about here and how it applies. I find it echoes the Greying of the Erudites of EQ2.

http://www.academia.edu/387012/Blackless_Fantasy_The_Disappearance_of_Race_in_Massively_Multiplayer_Online_Roleplaying_Games

I think this thread’s getting a little off track?

The Guild Wars franchise features a diversity of peoples and cultures. It’s a definite strength of the property, because we don’t really see it elsewhere. Thus, it sets the franchise apart, makes it distinct. That’s a good thing.

GW2 has, thus far, not really leveraged this asset. Instead of building on all that was established in GW1, we’ve gone (back) to what is largely a monoculture. It’s artificial and, given all that’s happened in the past 250 years, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense, either.

And I think the designers agree, as the cultural landscape is obviously meant to still be a patchwork, given that it’s referenced a fair bit in story and dialogue. But, visually, it’s been pushed into the background; it’s barely represented.

I’m pretty confident this has a lot to do with expediency. Artists are only human, can only produce so much, and already had a tall order in having to develop 5 completely distinct racial aesthetics. I’m sure there was a desire to get as much mileage as possible out of the assets they had already created. I’m also willing to bet they had to scale back all that they wanted to do to goals that were more realistic and would see the game released before 2030. I understand it, sympathize, even empathize.

But I do believe something important was lost in the shuffle. Luckily, this is an MMO, so it can be reintroduced. The question is: should it become a priority? I would say: yes, it really should.

The issue Olithia raises in the above post and link is only one reason why. That is only a part of this issue, not the whole of it.

I think things will settle out as Elonia and Cantha are added into the game. When this happens the cultural districts of Divinities reach will likely be reformatted to be more practical, rather than containing people that are clearly acalonian.

One thing I don’t believe will happen, is that the Krytan civilians will reach a complete overhaul. This is because with kryta is already iffy with it’s residence, surely it was elonian coloney (though the Krytans resembled natives of the americas) but the ramifications of the surviving Ascalonians fleeing to Kryta and the ravaging of the elder dragons likely caused ascalonians to become the majority, specifically under the idea that the searing had wrecked their people (Which would have resulted in baby booming)

Edit: Why is (HAP-EN) censored?

I’ve heard that if you pick your sister being from Cantha she looks Canthan is this true? And does Minister Wu look Canthan as well?

Well I already stated that even the ascalonians, particularly women have slight asian features in them. Whether this was intentional or has something to do with the way the models were designed remains to be unkown.

Given that Arena Net is owned by NC soft, it’s possible some the CG designers were transferred over from other NCsoft teams, teams that designed for K-rpgs. This would explain the similar appearance of Guild Wars 2 humans to Humans in Korean MMO’s.

That being said it would be pretty easy to perceive a character as canthan.

Perhaps. Sees that Ossan Tour guide was changed yet again

My dark skinned human is supposed to be a very recent mix of Ascalonan and Elonan, and he sticks out like a sore thumb walking through DR. I actually had no idea that Kryta was supposed to be connected to Elona rather than Ascalon until two weeks ago. A mix of appearances to go with the history given for humans would nice. But, humans seem to be a low priority of the developers as things stand, and designing more variety in humans would eat up resources they don’t wish to devote to that species.

I just hope the expansions don’t pull the trick I’ve seen in other games if we DO go to say, Elona… “Here is a civilization of your people, rended from you by circumstances and disaster! Reunion, rescue? Why no, they’re bad guys and you have to kill them!” I am still frothing at the mouth over Felwithe in EQ2, so I’m praying we don’t see it here.

More than likely, in Elona the enemy will be Palawa Joko’s undead minions/some of his human armies, but for the most part I can see you fighing with Elonians against him, not against all of Elona.

Your constant Earth references are annoying and offensive.

Not any more offensive than 2 races that existed in the first game being whitewashed completely out of existence. To where important parts of their lore (Sunspear-Seraph/ Order of Whispers), the Kryta-Elona connection being completely skipped over. I am sorry but there is nothing more offensive than that here. Where an entire race and the game that was based on them looks nothing like what was established, yet there are notable and obvious Canthans walking around.

I am curious to see what this says for the eventual Elonian expansion. Because if Kryta can be so whitewashed whats to stop Elona from suffering from the same fate? You have an entire district populated by someone else based on the people from your Nightfall game. Even the DR tour guide cannot seem to stay Elonian/black. For all of us who bought and appreciated GW for its diversity and applauded GW Nightfall for what it had and contributed to the overall gaming landscape, to even have to write a thread like this is an offense in itself and tells me that my appreciation fell on deaf ears and a sharp lack of caring. I bought two copies of this game because of Guild Wars Nightfall. To see a character named Zamon who looks Ascalonian is offensive when I am told that the districts have ministers that represent the races in the quarters they represent.

That my friend is offensive and using the word annoying would be too nice. Since whe does two entire races get bleached so? Some of you act as if I am asking for something new. I am not, I am upset because all of a sudden somebody turned my Euridites grey again and there was no excuse for it.

http://www.academia.edu/387012/Blackless_Fantasy_The_Disappearance_of_Race_in_Massively_Multiplayer_Online_Roleplaying_Games

If I may throw my informal hat into this particularly egregious ring, I find one flaw in the logic being applied here.

For one, Guild Wars has never had unique ‘races’. To use what has been bandying about, there have been Krytans that are both dark-skinned and light (Salma and Evennia, to give an example). There have also been Vabbians that have been dark-skinned and light. Istanis, Canthans, et cetera, et cetera. None of these have any sort of mass racial homogeny in terms of such an arbitrary attribute as simple skin colour.

If I may, the uniqueness in culture is not some sort of arbitrary linkage to skin colour. The fact that the average Krytan has grown ‘lighter’ over time does not make them any less Krytan. Would an Ascalonian that got a strong tan be suddenly not an Ascalonian? Would a Kournan who lightened his skin tone through some means no longer be a Kournan? No; it would be an absurdity.

What determines what you’re claiming is not race, or their ‘blackness’, but their heritage; they are people from Elona. Their culture and heritage is shared by people of a nationality, as there are no ‘races’ in terms of GW humanity; only nationalities, which have varying traits and colours to them. We might say that the general majority of X nation has certain traits, but that does not preclude people from having differing traits and still belonging to that same shared culture.

For example, and to possibly take it to RL territory: a man of dark skin tone, of African heritage, born and raised in Europe. Are they any less European for having a different ancestry or appearance? Are their cultural values not those of the average European, rather than someone from his ‘racial group’s’ ancestral home?

This, I feel, is the situation with Kryta. Despite the fact that, on the outward appearance, they look to be Ascalonian or of Ascalonian descent… they are as Krytan as the darker-skinned Krytans we found in GW1. Simply because 100% of the Ossan Quarter isn’t dark-skinned, does not mean they are any less Elonian for it (for goodness sake, the palest Ossan quarter member still says Ahai, and live in Vabbian, Kournan, and Istani-inspired homes.)

I suppose my summation to this little rant (as sleepy and tired as I may be), would be that there is only one flavour of humanity in GW, and it mirrors humanity in life. There are variations in physical appearance, ranging from the darkest to the lightest. But these appearances do not a culture make, and no culture or nation in GW has any monopoly on one ethnic group or another.

shrug Make of that what you will.

Edit: If I may add, you raise the Canthans a lot in the discussion of what a racial group ‘should’ be, yet fail to point out that they’re as homogenized as the Krytans, Ascalonians, and the Elonians. You don’t see them roaming about in what they wore in GW1, nor do you see a Canthan district that provides a cultural tie like the Ossan Quarter. They have even less of an ethnic identity than the Elonians do, having blended in with mainstream Krytan society just as the Ascalonians did.

1. There were never ANY black Ascalonians, not today, not tomorrow not ever. To say this means that the Ascalonians were also just as mixed as everyone else and they were and are not, so yes I would say that they are unique. Most European looking characters came from Ascalon, with Kryta as a small minority behind it. This is not assumption this is fact, and if there is an example of a non white Ascalonian please link me to it.

2. There is a difference between having a tan and an entire race getting lighter. Please show me that non white Ascalonian. Would one expect the Krytans to get lighter? Of course but since they are supposed to be the majority race to grow this light as a whole is a bit….well unrealistic. Especially when Queen Jennah is not a light character, there was a point made to make her look distinctively Krytan. Where as all of the nobles in the personal story that is based in KRYTA are not. To even mention a tanned Ascalonian is acknowledging that they are nothing else but white and that is as far as they can go.

3. Still waiting for that non white Ascalonian

4. I’m African American, never been to Africa a day in my life, so yes culturally I’m American. But walking down the street people are going to distinctly be able to tell I am African American. People become assimilated to others cultures all the time, but it doesn’t change their looks. African Americans have been in the United States for over 400 years. Most of us are still dark skinned or what would be considered to be dark. Fifty years- As what is told to you by the DR tour guide is not enough time to have a race become so whitened to the point of what they look currently look like, and if this is the case where are the dark Ascalonians who have been living with the Krytans for almost over 200 years? Even the ones in Ebonhawke?

5. The Elonians as told to you by the Ossan Quarter DR tour guide mostly have arrived in masse fifty years ago. Once again, are you saying that a race who has mostly only been there for fifty years ago should be less distinct than the Canthans who are fewer in number and have been cut off from Cantha for more than one hundred years?

6.So you’re saying that Ascalonians are now as varied looking? Please show me this. They have seemed to keep their looks, but the race who has arrived fifty years ago haven’t. I need this explained to me how this happened. I also ask you did you play Nightfall? The Elonians were very distinct. Even the three Vabbian princes were not white looking in the least, nor were they lightskinned.
See the thing is nobody expects them not to be homogenized. The issue is that there are more decidedly LOOKING (meaning facial features, etc) Canthans than Elonians, and the Elonians have only been in DR for fifty years. Again- as told to you by the DR tour guide.

6.Oh and by the way, for every one light skinned Elonian (who still didn’t look white) in Nightfall there were 20 who were darkskinned. So what happened to the darkskinned ones that came up in that last fifty years ago migration? Your words speak as if they have been in DR for centuries and even the game itself has told you that they were not.

If this was all of a sudden looks doesn’t matter case then it should be that way all around, including the Ascalonians. Which I am sure the lore crowd would scream bloody murder if the Ascalonians were all of a sudden as varied looking as the others. (Which the dark characters are the minority and there are no dark Krytan nobles in the personal story of note but yet a Krytan looking Jennah- how interesting).

7. Again, I would like to see your explanation of the Ascalonians and point out to me the dark characters of note and name in Ebonhawke. Here are mine for the Elonians. Zamon, his sister, Harlan Fromanj and your lost sister in your personal story. I raise you no dark Elonians (who have arrived fifty years ago en masse, DR tour guide tells you this) for a dark Ascalonian, and please named story important characters.

I tend to agree with the original comment about Divinity’s Reach being disappointing in it’s overly Ascalonian appearance. Mostly because the genetics don’t quite match my understanding of the lore, but also because I take great joy in having a full palette to play with during character creation. (Btw, I never make characters that look like me, as that would be terribly boring) I remain hopeful that expansions will bring in more faces and hairstyles, and we will see the diversity of NPCs we saw in GW1.

Wow, seems I stepped on a bit of a landmine with you, Olithia, but allow me to dissect your counter-arguments as so and provide my response:

1. The problem with your saying that there has never been a non-‘white’ (I hesitate to use the term, which I shall elaborate on further) Ascalonian is that it would presuppose some radical things that are not supported by the lore. The question is a matter of probability. I have never met, nor never seen, a dark-skinned Irishman before… but that does not preclude the fact that, statistically, there have been and do exist them, even if a miniscule percentage. Just as there are dark-skinned Swedes, dark-skinned Germans, dark-skinned Scots. And this is in our world, which has all of the nationalist and racist discrimination stretching back centuries, both institutional and cultural!

To presuppose that there has never been, or never was, a dark-skinned Ascalonian would require a monumental effort on the part of the Ascalonian people, which is something… that we do not see existing. You see, the crux of the problem is this: There are no ‘races’ in Tyria. Black, white, these terms are entirely meaningless, and have never meant anything to the people of Tyria. The only instance of distinct ‘races’ (in reality, cultural groups, most likely) emerging was in Cantha of all places, with the wars between the Luxons and the Kurzicks, and even those are more national conflicts than racial ones.

In essence, black and white are irrelevant terms in terms of Tyria. What matters, far more importantly, are national identities based upon shared governments and social contracts. Krytans versus Ascalonians, Vabbians versus Istani versus Kournans, Kurzick versus Luxon. It is a definition by culture, not by any sort of misguided adherence to a particular skin colour or facial features. In this, we see that the Elonian identity has still been preserved; their native architecture, their cultural norms, even something so simple as their cuisine.

2. To address your point; consider where the majority of Krytans we encountered lived in Guild Wars 1. The answer? The D’Alessio Seaboard, Lion’s Arch, and the areas to the south of where the Kingdom of Kryta exists today. The ‘whitening’ of Kryta may be due to such simple factors as the majority of the populace killed and/or displaced by the rise of Zhaitan would have been predominantly Krytans, rather than the Ascalonians that settled further to the North. In the wake of such devastation (including their most populace city getting, in essence, decimated), the Ascalonians would have been better equipped to influence Kryta through concentration of intact property and serving as an increased percentage of the remaining population.

3. See point one.

4. Again, the African American parallel is inappropriate for this discussion, because the idea of ‘race’ does not exist in reference to humanity. There is, as mentioned before, no ‘black’ or ‘white’ in Tyria, there is simple humans and their various national or cultural subgroups, none of which having any particular monopoly on a certain look (though there are, of course, majority appearances; yet these appearances do not preclude other appearances from being just as Elonian/Ascalonian/Canthan/etc.).

Again, skin colour and physical appearance has about as much influence in Tyria as what colour your hair is: Next to nothing, if not nothing.

5. Indeed, the refugees arrived 50 years ago (though some NPC’s mention that it was closer to 150 years ago; will provide chat-logs from one of the conversations in DR once I can find the fellow)… yet, we do not know the ‘colour’ of these immigrants. Who’s to say they weren’t predominantly from Vabbi? Or split evenly amongst the paler and the darker Elonians? Again, simply because one comes from Elona does not automatically make them dark-skinned, just as someone coming from Cantha does not automatically make them look a certain way.

In the end, there seems to be something of a disconnect, that ties back to my key point: there are no ‘races’ in Tyria, simply cultural groups and nationalities. Ultimately, every character you see (with the possible exception of Miyani in Lion’s Arch, or Doern Velazquez) is a Krytan. And you see plenty of dark-skinned Krytans and Krytans of Elonian descent.

shrug Again, it seems like imposing out-of-lore ideas on what constitutes race into the game, but that’s just me. Would I like to see more Elonian representation? Sure, why not. I’d also like to see Canthan, Luxon, Kurzick, and Orrian representation as well.

There were black ascalonians, my character in GW1 was ascalonian and very black :P

\
Tibicia I don’t need to use conjecture I don’t need to go on perhaps this and that and that and this.

I only need to provide pictures, and what the devs have shown me in the pictures is what I am looking for. And i am noticing one big theme in the pictures I have below.

And as I have told others. I have this game gw Nightfall, we can play together if you want. My question to you is, do you have the game? You seem to assume that the Vabbians were lightskinned. Well my pictures below prove otherwise. So please, where is your proof? Please. provide some. I have several links with Vabbian npcs below including the three princes. Lets not assume here anything, show and prove. I can provide more links if you wish.

I don’t care about the possibility of a darkskinned Irishman or any other european race. This is a discussion about Elonians, so please lets keep it on topic yes? Now what I do care about is the race being represented as they were in the first game. I apply realism to what I SAW not what I THINK.

And here is what I SAW.

And I would like to see it AGAIN. Because you know, the devs SHOWED me that ELONIANS looked like the links below.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Princes_of_Vabbi
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Norgu
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Norgu
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Category:Vabbians
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Sekou
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Festival_Coordinator_Khuri

I ask again, please respond if you HAVE played GW Nightfall, this is a discussion about ELONIANS and the lack there of. While I am discussing ELONIANS, I compare them to africans/african americans because that is who they looked like. They didn’t look like europeans-Ascalonians, they didn’t look like Asians-Canthans nor did they look like Arabs-Orrians. I don’t care about the one special snowflake needle in the haystack non african looking Elonian that popped up here and there. When you see Miyani in Lion’s Arch she identifies herself as a person from Elona, the girl looks so much like Rihanna that it doesn’t make sense.

Are there a few non african looking Elonians, sure there are. What I am saying that there are too few african looking ones when in Nightfall that was ninety percent of what the population looked like, and apparently Miyani was made to look like those folk as well.

I am asking, Can we see more Miyani’s please? Especially in the Ossan Quarter and not just women, not the newly added arab looking variants, the old school african ones, is that possible?

For every one light skinned Elonian there were thirty darkskinned ones, why has this changed for a people who have recently arrived and have only been in DR for two generations. I justify my question by the links I used above. Why the change, when did this happen and why does the Ossan quarter seem more like a “Elonian archetectural museum” as opposed to the Elonian hub of DR?

Almost afraid to pitch in here. o.o

I read somewhere(can’t verify) that originally DR was supposed to reflect the 3 major human cultures. By major I mean Tyria, Elona, and Cantha. Sub-cultures like Kurzicks or Vabbi I’m not speaking of at the moment. At any rate, somewhere along the development line, this “3-race representation,” for lack of a better phrase, got phased out.

Why? Well, it seems obvious to me they wanted you to think of the races as Charr, Asura, Norn, Sylvari, and Human. And not Elonian, Canthan, etc.

The human differentiation got indistinctive and subsumed in GW2 in favor of the other “species.” Good or bad…I dunno. But it seems plain to me that’s what happened.

About the NPCs randomly changing: guys, it’s probably a random NPC feature generator.

Olithia, I know this issue is very close and very dear to your heart, but you have to put everything into perspective here. Guild Wars 2 is not a game just about humans anymore. They have to balance the lore, art and resources against four other wildly different species. Think about the 3D modelers – They have to have tilesets of varying features for the different races, five different architectural styles (Humans actually have three different styles, so are the most diverse), including a small sampling of the non-important races (jotun, skritt, dredge, etc.). They cannot simply focus on one race and put all their time and money into it.

In fact, I think the great collapse is a great example of the time constraints or resource scarcity that arenanet had – This would have probably been the canthan district, but I am guessing that they had to scrap it, as they didn’t think they’d have enough time and resources to meaningfully flesh out an entire canthan district. Good thing the Ossan Quarter survived the cut eh?

In terms of speaking roles, they are also constrained on time – in the first game, they only had to care about humans and their cultures. This time around, they have to balance their time and money for voices for almost every sentient thing on Tyria. We may groan about how voice actors underperform and how this and that aren’t exactly right, but just think about how many voiced things there are in the world. Think of all the cities, and all the unique dialogue they have. Think of all the different story paths, and all the voices they had to do for each one. Now imagine only about five or so people coordinating the work, among twenty five or so doing the voice work. That’s a lot of work.

In terms of Lore, they cannot solely think of humans as well. Humans have a huge backstory to cull from, but the lore guys at Anet need to think of each of the other races’ diversity as well. Their stories need to be as fleshed-out as the humans’ stories are.

Yes, I think Divinity’s Reach as it stands today could use a bit more diversity, considering it SHOULD be a melting pot. Granted, it’s the second most diverse city next to Lion’s Arch.
I acknowledge that while Anet is a big company, they are still indeed limited to time, balancing, and resources. This next part is conjecture, but I really believe that come time we have an expansion to Elona, we will indeed have a more fleshed out Ossan Quarter, along with new features for character creation specifically for elonan features (as what will probably happen for cantha as well.)

On the issue of seeing yourself in games – I am a short Filipino guy. In games in general, short people with that weird short people proportion aren’t usually seen. In Western culture, South East Asians are usually grouped with east Asians, and just collectively labled ‘Asians’. In popular East Asian culture, SEAans are sometimes seen as dark, inferior, dirty, lazy and promiscuous. I won’t argue the lazy part. Good luck finding our human counterparts in a fantasy world.
:)

I tend to agree with Olithia that we need to see a wider spectrum in the human NPCs. I would like to see a greater density of darker skin tones in the Ossan, but also spread through the city. My hope is for ANet to recognize our concerns, and adjust whatever skin tone slider they have, or shift the skin tones on npcs in Ossan along the human skin range a few more notches. Whatever works. There are some fabulous faces that are decidedly non caucasian in the human generator, for which I am PROFOUNDLY grateful.. greater open ethnic diversity, visibly present in a city made of refugees.. would in my books very much increase my already considerable delight in this game.

Just to add my own pennyworth – this is something I found really disappointing, as well. the original Guild Wars games are very progressive in that they portray such a wide variety of human ethnic groups, and have a lot of major NPCs who are women and people of colour. I could understand Ebonhawke, the last outpost of Ascalon, being primarily inhabited by white people, as the inhabitants of Ascalon in GW1 were primarily white. To see the ‘diverse’ nation of Kryta however, originally inhabited mostly by darker-skinned people and having now also absorbed refugees from Cantha and Elona, comprised entirely of western-European appearing people was, to be frank, disappointing.

Honestly I just didn’t pay much attention to it. They are stock NPCs and they don’t make a huge impact on me I assume in lore divinities reach far more lively and diverse but you can only do so much….

Well, they honestly can do a lot. They already have the model types to give the districts their proper looks, but it seems to have been a decision on their part to make humanity one specific look rather than add the type of diversity that they had in the first Guild Wars.

This is an awesome (but a little scary o.o) thread.

Pretty much everything that could be said has been said. Except two things:

1. For the doubters, Nebo Terrance is the big obvious example. In gw 1, it was a straight up african village. Now, it’s a fort filled with pasty white seraph and merchants.

2. BUT, keep in mind, new models will probably be added over time. After all, making this game took five years; how would it sound if the devs took another month because “oh, we need more racial diversity in one of our cities”. Now that the game is out, I really, really do hope that Anet will fix this.

Just addressing some of the points I’ve seen on this thread:

Kryta was settled as an Elonian colony in 300 AE. When our characters first arrived in Kryta during the events of Prophecies, almost everyone there had dark, reddish skin, often with dreadlocks, tattoos, and green eyes. The secondary, much less prominent Krytan look was red hair, tan skin, and blue or green eyes. Think of Evennia and Saidra. This look became more common during War in Kryta. For example, Queen Salma was reskinned from the original standard black-haired peasant to a redhead. Krytan names in GW1 tended to be sort of Italian, as stated.

There were dark-skinned Ascalonians. The female academy monks in Prophecies often had dark tan skin and short black hair with a skunk stripe going down the side. I would guess that these were descended from Krytan immigrants, but who knows? Most Ascalonians were white, often with brown hair and brown eyes. Bandit Bloodsworns had blue-black hair and Cynn (among others) had blond hair, so obviously there were hair color variations.

As for Elonians, Vabbians did have a definite Arabic look to them, with the exception of the gypsies and commoners, who had very dark skin. Istanis were also quite dark, and Kournan commoner NPCs actually tended to be a slightly nasty grayish-brown.

Also, weirdly enough, most Canthan NPCs had brown hair. Not that that has anything to do with anything.

I too am very disappointed with how white Kryta is when the only white human nation in Guild Wars 1 was Ascalon, and most of Ascalon died. I mean, those Ascalon settlers and the red-headed Krytans must have bred like rabbits in the last 250 years or something. I was looking forward to a black Kryta with a thriving Canthatown and Ascalon Settlement, so the human lands, especially Divinity’s Reach, are kind of a let down. I’m hoping ArenaNet will fix this in the future, but I doubt they will. I don’t think they really care that much. They have bigger things on their plates.

The three princes of vabbi all were darkskinned. Most of them while dressed like Persians did not look Arabic. The obvious arabs of GW were the Orrian, there are links on this very thread that show the look of the Vabbians. Two of the princes had a Nubian Egyptian look and the other looked Sub Saharan African. Dressing Persian is one thing, looking Persian as far as physical features is another.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Princes_of_Vabbi
They also had a lot of Egyptian mixed in there. Hopefully since the devs have whitened Kryta they won’t whiten Elona.

And thank you Dreamwalker for mentioning Nebo Terrace. I always forgot the name.

I’m happy that there are those that also see this.

Its also disappointing to see the older Krytan look in the far countryside where they are bandits or pirates. You will even see the Norn dreadlock style on the human women out there. One of them has a variant of the Marksman chest armor for sale with Karma points after you help her. You cannot get this hairstyle for human women in character creation, but it is out there on a Krytan pirate woman- lovely. Yet there is not one- not one human in the city (not even in the Ossan District) who has this hairstyle male or female. Its also disappointing to not see any of these Krytans in Lion’s Arch.

So most of the old Krytans left Lion’s Arch for banditry and piracy? Rolls eyes

What else is disappointing? Trahearne calling Elona a nation. Since when was Africa a country? Again the problem of your devs not knowing the lore.

Oh by the way Anet super huge kudos for the true Krytan pirate girl necro in the whispers story who has a skull on her crotch. Like a goth Eve or something. Somehow I am starting to understand why our fantastic concept artist decided to leave.

Gooooooooooooo STEREOTYPES! She can stand by her thieving dreadlocked people proud! Why not migrate from Lion’s Arch to Divinity’s Reach? Why DR is filled with race quotas and old school Krytans were given the boot because they did not fill the quota. Perhaps too may tattoos? Or their dreads smelled and phooo to the old ways?Their own home got flooded and is now underneath the ocean left to die with Vabbi along with Elonians creating the order of whispers, Elonian/True Krytan males and the rise of a New Ascalonized Kryta complete with Charr Order of Whispers Leadership! Salma and Turai would be proud! Are old styled Krytans the new Native Americans? And now with the advent of Elona being a nation – Hey Trahearne told me they were in his speech about Orr, then it means I have more to look forward to.

Yaaaaayyy!!!

Don’t believe me?
http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/Maquiame/gw005-1.jpg
http://s155.photobucket.com/albums/s307/Maquiame/?action=view¤t=gw007-1.jpg

Well Elona is a continent… and a nation!!! http://www.dramabutton.com/

The kingdom of Elona was split after the so called Shattered Dynasty, in which the 3 provinces of Elona became independet nations. That changed briefly when Turai Ossa was the ruler of the whole Elona, but when he left for his pilgrimage that reverted back. But now Elona is unified again, under Palawa Joko, so yes, it is in fact a nation.

So it’s less like calling Africa a country, and more like calling Australia a country.

I’m gonna have to agree, I was deeply upset by how many pastey white humans roamed that city, ESPECIALLY in the canthan and elonian districts…

Elona was BY FAR my favorite content both cultural and apperance wise and I was upset there wasn’t more of both in DR =(.

I’m a bio major (getting close to graduation) and I can say if there’s anything I’ve learned is that the white skin color is dominate over the darker skin color (which is a kitten shame if you ask me) so it makes sense that in 250 years A LOT of the darker skin tones would be lost due to the sudden explosion in ascolonian population from GW1. However if what you said was true about a huge number of Elonians migrating recently, there should -still- be a large amount of Elonians running around…

PS: Whoever runs that tavern can you shoot me a PM when it’s “open”? Because I’d love to go there at least once seeing as how my Human is a fairly large part elonian (mixed with ascalonian so he’s mostly Krytan in apperance.)