So, essentially, a weakened god can be killed and a weakened Elder Dragon can be killed. So next we’ll probably go up against an Elder Dragon who isn’t weakened like Zhaitan was, and that’ll be the next challenge – figuring out how to weaken him enough that he’s mortal.
Tequatl the Sunless isn’t blind. He is given this name by the Hylek which inhabit the coast and the term “Sunless” merely refers to him being undead. The Hylek worship the Sun as a deity and so one who is “Sunless” is cut off from the Sun’s power and divinity.
The six gods are silent, and not doing much direct action, for a VERY obvious reason.
Look at what happened last time the gods fought anything, aka Abbadon.
-The Crystal Sea was turned into a vast inhospitable wasteland
-An entire civilization of people, the Margonites, was effectively wiped out
-The place were Abbadon fell created an ever expanding “doom area” called the Desolation, that is even more inhospitable then the Crystal DesertThe gods don’t fight the ED because doing so would doom most of , if not the entire, planet into turning into a wasteland.
The gods aren’t the Dragons, or sharing Dragon energy, they just know that fighting the dragon themselves is dumb.
I don’t know too too much about the lore but I chuckled at this since apparently an elder dragon can be killed by firing a couple lasers at it. Imagine what a god can do?
That fight just ruined everything. I truly hope zhaitan isn’t dead.
I was under the impression that the reason the laser was able to defeat Zhaitan was because it was a technological weapon, as opposed to a magical one. The Elder Dragons consume magic, so using a magical weapon against the dragon would have only made him stronger (assuming he could still “eat” without the mouths we killed).
The ancient races in the last cycle of awakening didn’t have the level of technology that the current races of Tyria do and in large part due to that fact managed to only escape the dragons (with Glint’s help) not destroy them.
No. This has been brought up a million times and every time the same answer comes up …. the 5 dragons are NOT the 6 gods. Being able to overlay some basic elements does not prove anything (apart from the fact OP only manages to shoehorn 4 of the dragons of which 1 is completely wrong).
Kralkatorrik = Pikachu (lightning)
DSD = Bulbasaur (planty tentacle thingy)
Primordus = Charrizard (fire)
Zaithan = Marowak (bone/dragon skull)
Jormag = Jynx (ice)
See. I just proved that the 5 dragons are pokemon.
For this type of speculation a few pieces of negative evidence completely crushes the hypothesis regardless of the positive “evidence”. So without further ado:
- we know what a god looks like. Abaddon was a god when we meet him. Dhuum was an imprisoned deity, maybe of demigod stature. We saw Kormir as a god in the ending cinematic. Neither god remotely looked like a dragon. Apart from that, Kormir was clearly human in nature, not a dragon and is most certainly not "ancient.
- there are 6 human gods …. at least. The fate of Menzies isn’t clear while Lyss and Ilya are technically something like the trinity being 1 god despite clearly being several. There are only 5 confirmed dragons and a 6th that’s only once mentioned as dead. Five is clearly a different number than six.
So if you add 2 and 2 together, it is impossible for the gods and dragons to be the same. There’s absolutely no reason to suspect that and as such, all speculation regarding the theme is false as per the lore.
(edited by marnick.4305)
Just a note to add refering to the god’s attributes that you missed and they are mentioned by Lyssas’ muse at the conclusion of the Gate of Madness mission in Nightfall.
I took a moment to look this up since I couldn’t help but notice the comparisons of human gods to the elder dragons.
Lyssa’s Muse:
“But now you must realize that our gifts are within you. Dwayna lives in your compassion, Balthazar in your strength.”
Lyssa’s Muse:
“Melandru dwells in your harmony, Grenth in your justice.”
Lyssa’s Muse:
“And in your inspiration, Lyssa is there.”
Sub-note: Abbadon was the god of secrets. (“secrets” is really a very vague/broad term where when Kormir makes that final decision to become a god, she becomes the god of truth .. yet imbued with all the knowlege of secrets).
There are only 5 confirmed dragons and a 6th that’s only once mentioned as dead.
Erm… no where is it ever said that the sixth Elder Dragon is dead – unless you’re talking about Zhaitan being dead.
Sub-note: Abbadon was the god of secrets. (“secrets” is really a very vague/broad term where when Kormir makes that final decision to become a god, she becomes the god of truth .. yet imbued with all the knowlege of secrets).
Well… Abaddon is considered the “Keeper of Secrets” so that’s not very vague (and “secrets” aka hidden knowledge is not very much more vague or general than “life” – in fact, compared to most gods, it’s surprisingly specific) and Kormir is originally called the goddess of secrets, truth, and knowledge, but most generally knowledge.
One case of secrets: Kormir, Goddess of Secrets!
And overtime Kormir expanded into order and spirit, and supposedly judgment (of living – Grenth, the god of judgment for Orrians, still presumably judges the dead).
Side note: I just found a very grim line regarding Kormir’s godhood: “Kormir whispers beneath the world, through the quiet chambers and the dark corridors of reality. Can you hear her?”
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
Yeah, that’s a little creepy. Where do you see that line?
Random thought: Is it possible the gods aren’t silent, but are cut off by something – that they’re trying to communicate, but can’t? Either by the Elder Dragons or something else?
I actually found the shift of Secrets to Truth to be a more symbolic change in how Kormir runs things.
For instance, not only was Abbadon the god of Secrets but also the God of Water and the Ocean. His power resides in the dark depths, where vision is scarce, and things can be hidden for a looooong time. Secrets in this case meshes well with that.
Kormir’s ascension marked one of bringing secrets into the open, of finding Truth and Knowledge. So to find her as becoming a Judge for the living is rather fitting.
Also would be greatly interesting in knowing with you found that line Konig. Almost makes her sound ominous!
@Elias: Not sure if they’re all that cut off to be honest. There is that story mission where we speak with one of the Reapers, he does mention what Grenth desires. Canonically that entire scene plays out at the doorstep of a living Elder Dragon. I think the Gods are genuinely keeping their distance after all of the trouble they’ve caused in Tyria by their existence. Abbadon being a very dark stain on their history after all.
Yeah, that’s a little creepy. Where do you see that line?
Random thought: Is it possible the gods aren’t silent, but are cut off by something – that they’re trying to communicate, but can’t? Either by the Elder Dragons or something else?
Tormented Souls in the Realm of Torment post-Nightfall (linked in previous post).
And yes, it’s possible the Elder Dragons are cutting them off – since they devour magic, they could be devouring the magic used for communication. Also take note that the Seventh Reaper met in the personal story says he’s too weak to kill a simple (okay, not that simple I guess) risen. But 250 years ago he and six others of supposedly equal strength re-imprisoned Dhuum multiple times.
I also suspect that Dhuum is free and wrecking havoc for the Six Gods (I doubt he’d contain his revenge to just Grenth, given how the others let Grenth into their little circle of gods, and he’s allied with Menzies who wants Balthazar’s power).
You are forgetting that it was Abaddon that gave humans magic and that he was imprisoned by the other gods for doing so. If the gods magic came from the dragons then that means all human magic also comes from Dragons yet the humans powers have not weakened or been cut off by the dragons rising.
It’s possible the reason the Gods did not want Abaddon to give man magic is because they knew of the danger it would put them in once the dragons awoke. That may also be the reason the Gods took magic away from the Juton, to protect them from the dragons.
Arah explorable delves into the origins of the magic gifted by Abaddon.
During the last Elder Dragon rise, the seers took all *non*corrupted magic in the world and put it into the original Bloodstone – meaning any magic that existed in the world at the time which wasn’t corrupted by Elder Dragons was stored into the big stone.
When the Six Gods settled on the world, they found the Bloodstone and took it to Arah. In 1 BE, Abaddon tampered with it to unleash the magic into the world. Shortly thereafter, the Six Gods tampered with it again to limit the magic and shattered the Bloodstone into five bloodstones (the game capitalizes the word when referencing the original, but not the five shattered ones). At one of these two intervals, Zhaitan was tapped to increase the bloodstones’ power – to what extent is unknown.
Despite tapping into Zhaitan, they did not know of the Elder Dragon.
Randall Greyston: “Fantastic! The human gods not only sundered the seer’s bloodstone here-they increased its power.”
Randall Greyston: “They pulled the energies of Zhaitan himself, even though they did not know of the sleeping Elder Dragon.”
Randall Greyston: “They only knew that this was a place of great magical power, and built their godly city here.”
So Abaddon couldn’t have been punished for putting beings in danger when the dragons awoke, since the Six Gods – by all known indication – had no knowledge of the Elder Dragons (or at least, of Zhaitan, but if they knew of other ED, they would probably investigate and discover Zhaitan).
And it’s more than just “human magic” but all non-Elder Dragon magic.
And Thruln the Lost is a very unreliable source. All other indications tell us that the jotun would never interact with gods (too prideful) and that it was the seers which took magic from the jotun (when creating the Bloodstone).
So, we have:
1. Magic originally being out in the world and free for all to use.
2. The Seers confine it, making it unusable by anyone, to protect it from the Dragons.
3. Abaddon makes it usable again, but still in the Bloodstone.
4. The Five break the Bloodstone, making magic segmented but more powerful.
Is that about the size of it? So the jotun lost their magic at (2), and their society crumbled, but the norn society didn’t crumble because they got magic from the Spirits. Which means the Spirit’s magic didn’t go into the Bloodstone, if Thruln the Lost is correct on that point.
That’s the size of it, jotun did lose their magic at 2 but not necessarily crumbled due to that – given others besides Thurln the Lost (including the ghostly Elder Thruln in the norn personal storyline) states that it was jotun pride which caused civil wars and crumbled their society, not the loss of magic – though it was likely the combination of the two (magic limited their society, and their pride brought them down on each other shortly thereafter).
And we have no indication other than Thruln the Lost on the norn’s relation to the jotun – and given how he’s telling it, he could easily be twisting it a bit so that the norn, his audience, likes it and continues telling it for him (the reason why he’s telling it at all).
So, if Zhaitan’s magic was put into the bloodstones when the original was broken, doesn’t that mean all the magic we’re using today has been tainted by an Elder Dragon this entire time?
That’s the true question.
It might have been purified in some means (unintentionally) – the forgotten found a means to prevent corruption, and remove mental connection between dragon and minion, after all. It could also be the case that the stones are tainted, but not the magic, though that sounds more like handwaving to me, nonetheless a plausibility.
And with the Forgotten’s tie to the gods it would make sense that the Forgotten may have been involved in the breaking of the Bloodstone, or perhaps were at least there to witness it. I do wonder though, why the gods knew nothing about the ED’s when some of their most loyal lap dogs (forgotten and dwarf) were around for their last awakening.
I wouldn’t call the dwarves loyal lap dogs to the Six Gods – at most, they only worshiped Dwayna and Grenth alongside the Great Dwarf (I wonder why, personally…).
@König des Todes: That distinctly proves that gods and dragons are different beings. I guess the discussion in this thread is settled then? Dragons are not gods nor pokémon.
I wouldn’t call the dwarves loyal lap dogs to the Six Gods – at most, they only worshiped Dwayna and Grenth alongside the Great Dwarf (I wonder why, personally…).
Fine, that being said though it seems quite peculiar that 2 of the 5 Elder Races have devotees to the gods, and yet none of them brought up the fact that there were Elder Dragons? Balthazar never wondered where the corruption that he “burned away with a cleansing flame” came from?
Maybe they did know of the Elder Dragons, but didn’t know of Zhaitan being under Arah. I mean, the forgotten cleansed Glint in Arah, so he had to have moved in while they were hiding.
I wouldn’t call the dwarves loyal lap dogs to the Six Gods – at most, they only worshiped Dwayna and Grenth alongside the Great Dwarf (I wonder why, personally…).
Fine, that being said though it seems quite peculiar that 2 of the 5 Elder Races have devotees to the gods, and yet none of them brought up the fact that there were Elder Dragons? Balthazar never wondered where the corruption that he “burned away with a cleansing flame” came from?
Considering what airheads the gods were most of the time and how oblivious they were to the obvious, yeah it doesn’t surprise me Balthazar had no idea what he was doing. I mean c’mon, who do they call to clean up their messes all the time? Us. Nuf said.
Balthazar: “Hmm, I’m getting my tail handed to me by my half brother. I’ve lost all of my armies, and I’m in a total pickle. Oh I know! Why don’t I get a group of 8 of those meaty flesh bags to do what I, a god, can’t do!”
I tend to think the Elder dragons are more powerful than the Gods. And since they feed off magic the Gods either can’t get involved for fear of losing there power, or making the Elder Dragons to powerful.
It most likely boils down to crap they woke up. Let the mortals handle it.
Balthazar: “Hmm, I’m getting my tail handed to me by my half brother. I’ve lost all of my armies, and I’m in a total pickle. Oh I know! Why don’t I get a group of 8 of those meaty flesh bags to do what I, a god, can’t do!”
Knowing Balthazar, he was probably trying to show up Grenth.
I mean lets face, if you were the God of War wouldn’t you be kitten if some Half-God and 7 pasty necromancers managed to pull down the Omega Death from his tower to supplant him as the rulers of the Underworld.
I bet Balth let his domain fall to crap just so he could round up 8 assorted mortals to do something epic for him.
It’s more likely that Grenth and Balthazar are just in some other world at the time and didn’t even know that their home was being wrecked.
I mean, it’s not like they’re all knowing.
The deep sea dragon we know nigh nothing about, except that it caused tentacled things to rise in rivers and lakes. I just thought that seemed naturey/viney, tentacles and growing and what have you, thus Melandru. A stretch, still, who knows.
Not to feed your theory, but I feel the need to point out:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Mordremoth
That said, it doesn’t account for Abaddon, or Menzies, or Dhuum.
Also? These are ELDER DRAGONS. They’ve been around since before the Gods brought humans to Tyria. They were made to sleep. Other races rose, some fell, and at some point the Gods brought in Humans. They walked among us, until Abaddon’s Rebellion anyway, and even after that they continued to aid us.
They went silent when the Dragons started to wake, but they are not the Dragons.
And since they feed off magic the Gods either can’t get involved for fear of losing there power, or making the Elder Dragons to powerful.
This is a possibility, too. Hadn’t thought of it, but it makes sense.
P.S. Konig, I love your sig quote.
P.S. Konig, I love your sig quote.
It’s just a rip from Prophecies.
And since they feed off magic the Gods either can’t get involved for fear of losing there power, or making the Elder Dragons to powerful.
This may make it a bad thing that Jormag has eaten 1 to 4 Spirits of the Wild, then. Oops.
It is impossible for the dragons to be linked to the gods of Tyria in the way the OP suggests. The dragons are far older than the Tyrian gods. I have read that the Elder Dragons are on a cycle of consume-sleep-consume. Sort of like Draconic versions of the Reapers. They corrupt living beings to serve and consume the essences (magic) they desire in all forms. By bringing more races to Tyria and eventually their followers dabbling in magic, the gods had inadvertently brought about the next cycle of the dragons.
Interestingly enough, this website has brought about a theory that Sylvari are Tyria’s natural defense against the dragons. That would explain why they cannot be corrupted by the dragons.
On the subject of the gods of Tyria, I believe they are slowly being weakened. Zhaitan has corrupted the priests/priestesses in Orr and is using the power that flows through the shrines as a tasty snack. In the process, weakening the gods.
Perhaps the gods simply just don’t care. :P
(edited by Liavain Axon.1972)
Dragons are power, and the facets reflect the nature of the power that the human gods have harnessed. http://www.killtenrats.com/2009/09/02/guild-wars-2-interview/
Dragons are power, and the facets reflect the nature of the power that the human gods have harnessed. http://www.killtenrats.com/2009/09/02/guild-wars-2-interview/
The cryptic quote from the gods of tyria to the Asura is:
“An offering to those who seek”
“Beyond the mists beyond the dreams” (Sylvari or Pale Tree reference?)
“On distant shores of a land unwaking”
“Answers there lie in waiting”
The rest of the line Jeff Grubb said is:
“It is possible that the cryptic message refers to the Dragons – “a land unwaking” could be the risen kingdom of Orr, and answers to the origin of the dragons do lie there.”
So… Are these “Answers” already available to us or are they some sort of future content?
Oh, I just found it interesting that jeff seemed to be saying that the mantle of godhood is connected to the elder dragons. specifically harnessing their power.
Well, we know that the Six have unknowingly tapped the Elder Dragon’s power at least once – some of Zhaitan’s magic was put into the bloodstones when they were broken, enhancing the amount of magic in the world. So it wouldn’t overly surprise me if it had been done more than once, before or after that time.
We know Zhaitan was under Orr, making him easy to use. Primordus was seemingly a statue underground near the Central Transfer Station, so his magic was being used by the asura. Kralkatorrik was a mountain range, but I don’t recall anything magical happening nearby. And who knows where Jormag was – we saw his lieutenant in GW1, but not him, as far as I know.
Dustfinger, nothing in that line ever mentions the mantle of godhood. In fact, everything we’re given indicates that the Six were already gods when they arrived on Tyria (it may be that Abaddon, Dhuum, and Lyssa weren’t among them, but Dwayna, Balthazar, and Melandru are certainly made out to be gods when they arrived on the world). Though this is from human history, it’s more credible than the dev merely stating that the gods harnessed powers which is reflected into a draconic facet.
His lines merely states that they harnessed powers from somewhere, and for xyz reason, when made physical that power appears draconic. It doesn’t in any way mean that they became gods by harnessing Elder Dragon powers – it could just as easily be regarding the bit of them harnessing Zhaitan’s power unknowingly when strengthening the bloodstone, or it may be that they harnessed power from, say, Glint sometime later to become even more powerful gods. Or it may be that they killed and absorbed the power of a Elder Dragon-like being on another world.
@Elias: It’s my supposition that the Flame Legion enchanted the Searing Cauldrons – which were made based off of the Cauldron of Cataclysm given by the titans – from Kralkatorrik’s energy. Hence why the crystals appear purple-ish (and the Searing Effigy’s flame attacks are purple too). In one of the latter personal storyline missions, we’re told that the Flame Legion enchanted the cauldrons themselves, and from a Priory historian in Blazeridge, we’re told that the magic used for the Searing predates the titans who gave them the cauldrons (which matches the Ecology of the Charr’s line about the Cauldron of Cataclysm, which was given to the charr by the titans, is powered by an ancient dormant power).
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
What about Cataclysm? IMO he would be Balthazar.
Major flaw in this theory is the assumption that new god=less powerful. Kormir absorbed all of Abaddon’s power. Comparing her to Tequatl would be like saying she’s Grenth’s minion. That’s a lot of reaching out for the theory
*Dustfinger, nothing in that line ever mentions the mantle of godhood. In fact, everything we’re given indicates that the Six were already gods when they arrived on Tyria (it may be that Abaddon, Dhuum, and Lyssa weren’t among them, but Dwayna, Balthazar, and Melandru are certainly made out to be gods when they arrived on the world). Though this is from human history, it’s more credible than the dev merely stating that the gods harnessed powers which is reflected into a draconic facet.
it was an extrapolation based on the fact that the gods aren’t unreplaceable. Only the mantle is permanent. But we also know that the Elder Dragon are older than the gods. And “If there were to be multiple universes (meaning, if there were a reason to discuss them in the game), the would be based off a form of the multi-verse theory: universes are spawned around major events. In every universe, there would be a Kormir, Abaddon would be a god, and things like that”
So since the ED’s are ancient and elemental from the time when forces were wild, the mantles may have come about in response to the forces within civilization. A-net does liken them to the animal spirirs (No, they did not say it was only norn who saw them this way so norn might be wrong, they said the whole question of godhood is a question of how the culture sees them.) So the gods are spirits AND they are gods, depending on which culture you view them from because human culture views spirits as gods and norn view gods as spirits.
Given that civilization sprung from ancient urges that are still present we may be able tto look at the relationship between ED’s and gods the same way. Even the spirits which forces would have come after elemental forces but before civilized forces.
it’s like the relationship between the fabled Anansi and Tiger. Tiger used to own all the stories back before civilization and becasue of that, all anyone cared about was meat and blood and lieing in wait to tear flesh with claw. Now that Anansi owns the stories, it allows humanity to move beyond mere instincts.
My theory suggests the mantles of animal spirits came about as life grew from the primordial chaos that ED’s embody. After animal spirits mantle flourished, it made way for the spirits of action from civilized beings. Which would have created the mantle of “godhood”. This way, “the facets reflect the nature of the power that the human gods have harnessed.”
A-net does liken them to the animal spirirs (No, they did not say it was only norn who saw them this way so norn might be wrong, they said the whole question of godhood is a question of how the culture sees them.) So the gods are spirits AND they are gods, depending on which culture you view them from because human culture views spirits as gods and norn view gods as spirits.
I think you misunderstood what Jeff meant. Jeff meant that each culture views them in different light – think of it like Judaism, Christianity, and Muslims. They all worship the same god, but not all admit it and there are conflicts on how they view it. Heck, even within just one of those religions that happens.
In this case, the Six Gods are always the Six Gods. But different cultures view them differently – charr view such beings to fight and kill, asura view such beings as merely parts of the Eternal Alchemy, norn view them as just another pantheon like their Spirits of the Wild which they call Spirits of Action, and sylvari don’t know what to think. This isn’t saying “they are just like the Spirits of the Wild” this is saying “the norn view them to be like the Spirits of the Wild” – so yes, it is possible the norn may be wrong on this.
Everything else… I’m sorry, but I don’t really get what you’re trying to say here. If I understand you correctly, the Elder Dragons, Spirits of the Wild, and Six Gods are, to you, all the same? Or is it that one is born from the previous (respectively)? If the former – wrong. If the latter – makes no sense.
There’s two major flaws in your argument: First is your notion of the multiverse theory.
You outright presume that it would firstly follow the most common theme to such a theory. However, all incidences we know show this to be false. Take the Dream of Dreams for instance: it shows the current future’s path – which changed when it came to us being in Orr. As the Pale Tree said, the future is always changing. The Infinity Ball storyline furthers this though not as hard, and also shows the possibility of timetravel – as well as the effects of such. The only thing left for the multiverse to really holds sway is WvW, which is hard to count for lore (PvP of any kind has always been iffy in the GW series).
Secondly, you presume that these beings must exist in multiple universes, should there be such.
And third, you presume something (Six Gods) which doesn’t come from Tyria, is coming from another universe’s Tyria.
The fourth and final major flaw in your comment is your ending statement: gods have harnessed power. This is a proactive action. You cannot harness something you were born with – which by all indications is what your hypothesis is claiming. That the Six Gods comes from the Spirits of the Wild who in turn comes from the Elder Dragons.
But all indications show that this is false. On all three charges – that the Spirits of the WIld come from the ED, that the Six Gods come from the Spirits of the Wild, and that the Six Gods come from the Elder Dragons. Nothing links these together except the shape of the facets, which might I reminds you, those facets are tied to the Forgotten. And their magic couldn’t be corrupted by Elder Dragons – at all.
Jeff: The whole question of gods is based upon culture. The humans have tangible, powerful beings that they can interact with – hence, gods. The spirits of the norn also fit that description, so humans would call these beings “gods” as well. Norn would disagree. And describe the human gods as being “Spirits of Action” of the humans – Balthazar is obviously War, and should be spoken of as such. Kormir is Knowledge, and calling her Kormir is a quaint human thing.
I think you misunderstood what Jeff meant. Jeff meant that each culture views them in different light – think of it like Judaism, Christianity, and Muslims. They all worship the same god, but not all admit it and there are conflicts on how they view it. Heck, even within just one of those religions that happens.
we’re completly agreed here. Humans refer to these greater spirits as gods and norn refer to these gods as spirits becasue they are the same, as per your “Judaism, Christianity, and Muslims” example.
In this case, the Six Gods are always the Six Gods. But different cultures view them differently – charr view such beings to fight and kill, asura view such beings as merely parts of the Eternal Alchemy, norn view them as just another pantheon like their Spirits of the Wild which they call Spirits of Action, and sylvari don’t know what to think.
Still agreed here. A-net seems to be saying that they are interchangeable by their definition.
This isn’t saying “they are just like the Spirits of the Wild” this is saying “the norn view them to be like the Spirits of the Wild” – so yes, it is possible the norn may be wrong on this.
This is where we disagree. A-net describes spirits of the wild and gods in a kitten for tat fashion. “the norn view them to be like the Spirits of the Wild …and the humans view spirits of the wild to be gods”
Everything else… I’m sorry, but I don’t really get what you’re trying to say here. If I understand you correctly, the Elder Dragons, Spirits of the Wild, and Six Gods are, to you, all the same? Or is it that one is born from the previous (respectively)? If the former – wrong. If the latter – makes no sense.
You don’t get what I’m trying toi say but i will address your points:
There’s two major flaws in your argument: First is your notion of the multiverse theory.
You outright presume that it would firstly follow the most common theme ………
No. I go by a-nets description. “universes are spawned around major events. In every universe, there would be a Kormir, Abaddon would be a god, and things like that.”
Secondly, you presume that these beings must exist in multiple universes, should there be such.
It’s pretty confirmed
And third, you presume something (Six Gods) which doesn’t come from Tyria, is coming from another universe’s Tyria.
I assume they come from the mists which anet described as “the building blocks of reality,…. homes of the various gods and other powerful entities.”
The fourth and final major flaw in your comment is your ending statement: gods have harnessed power. This is a proactive action. You cannot harness something you were born with – which by all indications is what your hypothesis is claiming.
Anet has said something to the effect of the gods aren’t unchangeable but the mantle of godhood is. so the personalities may well have harnessed the power by taking on the unchangeable mantle of godhood.
So you haven’t really pointed out any real flaws in the theory but I will elaborate on it because it seems I wasn’t clear about it.
Anet describes the ED’s as ancient primevil forces. Spirits of the wild are not just the spirit of one or a pack of the animal they represent but embody all of the animals they represent and embody all the complex virtues and vices of the animals they represent. Gods can be described as more broadminded concepts like war or nature as stated in the wiki and the opening quote.
So, my theory is the ED’s, spirits of the wild and gods are actually physical representations of the forces that govern the world. First were raw primevil elements of wich the ED’s represent. As life flourished we see the spirits of the wild born onto tyria. Only ever possible due to the more base primevil forces. Finally we have the gods, who are a representation and embodiment of the world seen through the eyes of intelligent beings. But underlying all this, all the spirits of the wild and action, the ancient primevil forces make it all possible just as civilization is the harnessed power of our own base, raw and primevil instincts.
if my theory is correct and we can look at it like this then the larger struggle on tyria is ultimately a struggle between the zeitgeists of the various ages.
(edited by Dustfinger.9510)
This is where we disagree. A-net describes spirits of the wild and gods in a kitten for tat fashion. “the norn view them to be like the Spirits of the Wild …and the humans view spirits of the wild to be gods”
Wrong. How they are viewed. Not how they are.
We’re not in agreement anywhere. Jeff only stated that the norn view the Six Gods as Spirits of Action. However, we know that at least some humans consider the Spirits of the Wild to be lesser than their gods – specifically, to be under Melandru’s domain.
Now, if you’re claim that “they did not say it was only norn who saw them this way so norn might be wrong” is right, which by Jeff’s wording it is not so (he leaves it open for which view is right – are the gods spirits, or are the spirits gods?), then you’re also stating that human belief is wrong.
No. I go by a-nets description. “universes are spawned around major events. In every universe, there would be a Kormir, Abaddon would be a god, and things like that.”
[…]
It’s pretty confirmed
You kind of miss the key point. IF there were. Also, next time, it’d be helpful to site it. You should also take note that the source (for those interested) is not verbatim. Meaning that it’s based off of this Conner’s paraphrasing of Jeff Grubb’s words, so its not infallible.
Furthermore, we kind of see a degree of this in the personal story – asura Infinity Ball and the “A Light in the Darkness” step. However, you still fall upon the same issue:
The Six Gods didn’t come from Tyria. And they arrived on the world as gods (at least three did).
I assume they come from the mists which anet described as “the building blocks of reality,…. homes of the various gods and other powerful entities.”
Right, that’s in reference to the Underworld, Fissure of Woe, Realm of Torment, and perhaps three others.
We know that humans and the Six Gods – presumably forgotten as well – come from another world. But nothing – and I do mean nothing – implies another dimension. This is where the flaw stands. In order for the Six Gods’ power to come from Elder Dragons, they had to have come from either another world’s Elder Dragons, or another dimension’s Elder Dragons. All indications show that the Elder Dragons are unique to Tyria (lack of Mist contact outside havroun manipulation).
Anet has said something to the effect of the gods aren’t unchangeable but the mantle of godhood is. so the personalities may well have harnessed the power by taking on the unchangeable mantle of godhood.
And? Your theory was that the gods’ power came from the Elder Dragons. If they were gods outside of the presence of Elder Dragons, then it is therefore impossible for them to have obtained their power from the Elder Dragons.
So, my theory is the ED’s, spirits of the wild and gods are actually physical representations of the forces that govern the world. First were raw primevil elements of wich the ED’s represent. As life flourished we see the spirits of the wild born onto tyria. Only ever possible due to the more base primevil forces. Finally we have the gods, who are a representation and embodiment of the world seen through the eyes of intelligent beings. But underlying all this, all the spirits of the wild and action, the ancient primevil forces make it all possible just as civilization is the harnessed instinct of our own base, raw and primevil instincts.
if my theory is correct and we can look at it like this then the larger struggle on tyria is ultimately a struggle between the zeitgeists of the various ages.
This rephrasing does make more sense, however, you’re ignoring something very important (well, not ignoring, since you use it in your argument, but still not taking it into every account):
A gods’ power cannot be destroyed. If it loses its container (the god itself dies), it becomes violent and threatens explosion, destroying all reality nearby (and “nearby” means including Tyria (the world) when in the heart of the Realm of Torment). However, no such thing happened when Owl died – unless Jormag absorbed this power – and no such thing happened when Zhaitan died. Therefore, it is outright proven that the Six Gods and Elder Dragons are not in the same category. Their source of power is vastly different – one is destroyable, the other isn’t. Furthermore, Elder Dragons are more like parasites. They become powerful by feasting on magic.
At best, Elder Dragons are the Six Gods’ antecedent. A god’s natural predator, if you will.
Wrong. How they are viewed. Not how they are.
Nothing you just quoted is wrong since I also said “viewed”. Your response doesn’t speak to my post or even infer that it’s wrong.
Jeff only stated that the norn view the Six Gods as Spirits of Action.//some humans consider the Spirits of the Wild to be lesser than their gods.
meanwhile jeff says the whole question of gods is a question of culture…vs some npc’s whom you are famous for pointing out their falibility
Now, if you’re claim //are the gods spirits, or are the spirits gods?), then you’re also stating that human belief is wrong.
not at all. I’m stating that they are BOTH right. Jeff also never implies that one might be right. he compares both views in a kitten for-tat fashion that seems to at least put them on a similar level.
You kind of miss the key point. IF there were. Also, next time, it’d be helpful to site it. You should also take note that the source "//html is not verbatim. Meaning that it’s based off of this Conner’s paraphrasing of Jeff Grubb’s words, so its not infallible.
I have a a quote to site. “Do you truly want me to dig through years of interviews just to satate your need to disagree with me?” from you to Gaudrath https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/lore/Origin-of-The-Pale-Tree/first#post1290704
So, your saying it MAY be wrong. Not that it actually is My theory still stands at this point.
Furthermore, we kind of see a degree of this in the personal story – asura // However, you still fall upon the same issue:
The Six Gods didn’t come from Tyria.
I’m not sure what your speaking to. They came from the mists. The mist that would be connected to all tyrias
Right, that’s in reference to the Underworld, Fissure of Woe, Realm of Torment, and perhaps three others.
Ok
We know that humans and the Six Gods – presumably forgotten as well – come from another world. But nothing – and I do mean nothing – implies another dimension. This is where the flaw stands. In order for the Six Gods’ power to come from Elder Dragons, they had to have come from either another world’s Elder Dragons, or another dimension’s Elder Dragons. All indications show that the Elder Dragons are unique to Tyria (lack of Mist contact outside havroun manipulation).
We don’t know the gods came from another world. or that that “other world” wasn’t the mists wich are the “building blocks of reality”. They could easily have originated in the mists becasue of the events that would be common to all universes.
and?
..and.. that was the point.. about how the gods could still harness the power of the ED’s and still adhere to my theory.
Your theory was that the gods’ power came from the Elder Dragons. If they were gods outside of the presence of Elder Dragons, then it is therefore impossible for them to have obtained their power from the Elder Dragons.
My theory is that they are zeitgeists in phyical form. the later of wich wouldn’t exist had the former never been. So it isn’t impossible at all.
This rephrasing does make more sense, however, you’re ignoring something very important (well, not ignoring, since you use it in your argument, but still not taking it into every account):
A gods’ power cannot be destroyed. If it loses its container (the god itself dies), it becomes violent and threatens explosion, destroying all reality nearby (and “nearby” means including Tyria (the world) when in the heart of the Realm of Torment). However, no such thing happened when Owl died – unless Jormag absorbed this power – and no such thing happened when Zhaitan died. Therefore, it is outright proven that the Six Gods and Elder Dragons are not in the same category. Their source of power is vastly different – one is destroyable, the other isn’t. Furthermore, Elder Dragons are more like parasites. They become powerful by feasting on magic.
At best, Elder Dragons are the Six Gods’ antecedent. A god’s natural predator, if you will.
Jormag may have absorbed the power that was harnessed. Since acording to the theory, it is related to the ED’s anyway. The ED’s may well be parasites feasing on power that their existance made possible in ordewr to gain the 100% zeitgeist that they used to have. And finally, zaitans death may have actually made the other spirits that embody death stronger if he isn’t being reborne elsewhere, becasue it would be an ushering in of a new age of death without the primevil death as a possibility.
meanwhile jeff says the whole question of gods is a question of culture…vs some npc’s whom you are famous for pointing out their falibility
Since you seemingly couldn’t read between the lines, what I meant was that a culture doesn’t hold a single view. So why would one view be more accurate than the other when there’s no support for either side views? Because it was used in Jeff’s example? Take note: there is NEVER any mention of “Spirits of Action” by the norn in-game; similarly, the Spirits of the Wild are never called gods except by an asura’s journal.
“not at all. I’m stating that they are BOTH right. Jeff also never implies that one might be right. he compares both views in a kitten for-tat fashion that seems to at least put them on a similar level.”
This is precisely my point. They’re contradicting views on the subject, so it is actually impossible for them to be both right. Because the norn say “they are not gods, they are spirits” while the humans say “they are not spirits, they are gods.” They can’t both be right.
“So, your saying it MAY be wrong. Not that it actually is My theory still stands at this point.”
At this point, it’s a hypothesis. A theory has evidence backing it, which that “interview” is not.
“I’m not sure what your speaking to. They came from the mists. The mist that would be connected to all tyrias”
But NOTHING AT ALL implies, indicates, or hints at them coming from an alternate dimension. And in fact, by the interview’s meaning of multiple dimensions, this would actually be impossible. Why? Because it means that every copy of Dwayna, Balthazar, Abaddon, and so forth, came from another dimension. Meaning for every dimension of Tyria that exists, the Six Gods came from somewhere else. So it’d be a paradox if they came from Tyria, while not coming from Tyria.
Point is: they don’t come from Tyria. So they wouldn’t come from an alternate dimension of Tyria, because in that Tyria, since the Six Gods arriving is a major event, they had to come from somewhere else in those other Tyrias.
That’s how the theory works – the major events are all the same (generally), but the minor events can change. In other words, in every alternate dimension of Tyria, Kormir replaced Abaddon. In turn, in all Tyrias, the Six Gods came from another world. Both are major events, and the former (Kormir replacing Abaddon) cannot occur without the Six Gods first arriving.
“We don’t know the gods came from another world. or that that “other world” wasn’t the mists wich are the “building blocks of reality”. They could easily have originated in the mists becasue of the events that would be common to all universes."
…You are now contradicting yourself “they came from an alternate Tyria” “we don’t know the gods came from another world” – another Tyria = another world. But, yes, we do. But your example just now, to try to justify your theory, would still be countering your theory. GG
“..and.. that was the point.. about how the gods could still harness the power of the ED’s and still adhere to my theory.”
But in your most recent iteration, there is no gods harnessing powers of the Elder Dragons. The gods just came into being after the Elder Dragons by your latest explanation. And the Spirits of the Wild between the two.
“And finally, zaitans death may have actually made the other spirits that embody death stronger if he isn’t being reborne elsewhere, becasue it would be an ushering in of a new age of death without the primevil death as a possibility.”
You never played GW1, have you? Cuz that’s just not how a god’s power works.
Also, I remembered something that outright debunks your theory:
“There are more hostile, even malicious, spirits in the world…spirits of the mountains, seasons, fire, and darkness. The animal spirits are our allies against these foes, and we thank them for their aid, singing the praises of all beasts as we hunt. This is the Norn way.”
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Egil_Fireteller
A spirit of fire, hostile and possibly malicious, despite the fact the norn had no knowledge whatsoever of Primordus. In other words, this “Spirit of Fire” is not Primordus. But Primordus would be a “Spirit of Fire” by your theory. Ergo, Elder Dragons != Spirits of the Wild level (I suppose these would be “Spirits of Nature”?)
Since you seemingly couldn’t read between the lines, what I meant was that a culture doesn’t hold a single view. So why would one view be more accurate than the other when there’s no support for either side views? Because it was used in Jeff’s example? Take note: there is NEVER any mention of “Spirits of Action” by the norn in-game; similarly, the Spirits of the Wild are never called gods except by an asura’s journal.
You have always been quick to point out the higherarchy of interviews over NPC’s. Why change?
This is precisely my point. They’re contradicting views on the subject, so it is actually impossible for them to be both right. Because the norn say “they are not gods, they are spirits” while the humans say “they are not spirits, they are gods.” They can’t both be right.
They are NOT conflicting views. They are diffrent ways of viewing the same thing. So they CAN both be right.
At this point, it’s a hypothesis. A theory has evidence backing it, which that “interview” is not.
it abdolutely is evidenance whether you accept it or not. but that definition of “theory” only applies to a scientific theory within the scientific method. Since you seemingly can’t tell the diffrence, this isn’t a scientific theory within the scientific method.
But NOTHING AT ALL implies, indicates, or hints at them coming from an alternate dimension. And in fact, by the interview’s meaning of multiple dimensions, this would actually be impossible. Why? Because it means that every copy of Dwayna, Balthazar, Abaddon, and so forth, came from another dimension. Meaning for every dimension of Tyria that exists, the Six Gods came from somewhere else. So it’d be a paradox if they came from Tyria, while not coming from Tyria.
Wrong again. They would all have come from the “building blocks of reality" wich would be the mists.
Point is: they don’t come from Tyria. So they wouldn’t come from an alternate dimension of Tyria, because in that Tyria, since the Six Gods arriving is a major event, they had to come from somewhere else in those other Tyrias.
Somwwhere like the mists?
That’s how the theory works – the major events are all the same (generally), but the minor events can change. In other words, in every alternate dimension of Tyria, Kormir replaced Abaddon. In turn, in all Tyrias, the Six Gods came from another world. Both are major events, and the former (Kormir replacing Abaddon) cannot occur without the Six Gods first arriving.
Thank you for explaining how the theory that I apparently introduced you to works?
…You are now contradicting yourself “they came from an alternate Tyria” “we don’t know the gods came from another world” – another Tyria = another world. But, yes, we do. But your example just now, to try to justify your theory, would still be countering your theory. GG
I also said ‘or that that “other world” wasn’t the mists’ but I see you “accidentlly left it out. Either way, Unless the mists wich are the “building blocks of reality” actually created each tyria and connect each tyria. So we can see that it does work.
But in your most recent iteration, there is no gods harnessing powers of the Elder Dragons. The gods just came into being after the Elder Dragons by your latest explanation. And the Spirits of the Wild between the two.
Not so. As per my civilization analogy, in wich civilization harnesses the power of baser instinct, the gods would still harness the power of the ED’s.
You never played GW1, have you? Cuz that’s just not how a god’s power works.
Absolutley did. What specifically are you refering to?
Also, I remembered something that outright debunks your theory:
“There are more hostile, even malicious, spirits in the world…spirits of the mountains, seasons, fire, and darkness. The animal spirits are our allies against these foes, and we thank them for their aid, singing the praises of all beasts as we hunt. This is the Norn way.”
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Egil_Fireteller
A spirit of fire, hostile and possibly malicious, despite the fact the norn had no knowledge whatsoever of Primordus. In other words, this “Spirit of Fire” is not Primordus. But Primordus would be a “Spirit of Fire” by your theory. Ergo, Elder Dragons != Spirits of the Wild level (I suppose these would be “Spirits of Nature”?)
That doesn’t debunk it at all since fire, seasons, darness, etc. are still powers that rule tyria and could stil have physical embodiments. So primordius doesn’t need to be the spirit of fire. how about ruintion, or detruction, or even “first fire” since he is a primeval force as stated by A-net? But keep thrashing around. You’ll have a hard time proving a loose theory wrong when we have so little confirmation of details. GG
(edited by Dustfinger.9510)
You have always been quick to point out the higherarchy of interviews over NPC’s. Why change?
Actually, it’s newer evidence ranks higher than interviews, but objective facts provided by a developer supersedes those provided by NPCs. However, this isn’t the case of objective fact, where they’re equal.
But my point isn’t in hierarchy of NPCs vs. interviews. This is about the fact that you’re saying Jeff states something he doesn’t.
They are NOT conflicting views. They are diffrent ways of viewing the same thing. So they CAN both be right.
Different views of the same thing which cannot co-exist.
Because Group A says that Group C is 1 and not 2, but Group B says that Group C is 2 and not 1.
Ergo, Group A disagrees with Group B. Therefore, both cannot be right at the same time.
It could be the case if it was Group A says that Group C is 1, while Group B says that Group C is 2, if and only if Group C was 1 and 2. However, for Group A to be right in the actual situation, Group B must be wrong. Therefore, they’re contradictory views.
They would all have come from the “building blocks of reality" wich would be the mists.
Ergo, only one set of the Six Gods exist. Because the Mists contain within it the multiverse (yes, GW has a multiverse, but not necessarily multiple dimensions). If the multiple dimensions thing truly does exist, then by the “common theory” Jeff says (according to the interview), each universe would be a different dimension of the same universe. So if they come from the Mists, and not another universe (aka dimension), then they cannot have multiple counterparts. Kormir would, but there’d only be one Kormir the goddess while the rest would just be Kormir the dead-a-human.
Thank you for explaining how the theory that I apparently introduced you to works?
You apparently don’t see how the multiverse theory (which no, you didn’t introduce to me – it’s a common sci-fi story scenario) doesn’t support your hypothesis at all, and you’d be better off if you just dropped it completely, because quite frankly, it only hurts your argument – but you fail to see this, it seems.
Not so. As per my civilization analogy, in wich civilization harnesses the power of baser instinct, the gods would still harness the power of the ED’s.
That makes no sense. For starters, civilization doesn’t “harness the power of baser instinct.” And on top of that, nothing you said indicates a harnessing of power, since harnessing is proactive and your argument shows a passive obtaining if power (“born with it” basically).
Absolutley did. What specifically are you refering to?
The same thing I have been – Abaddon’s power going haywire upon death. It doesn’t act like how you argue Zhaitan’s could. If they don’t act the same, they’re not of the same design, which is what your argument is gearing towards
That doesn’t debunk it at all since fire, seasons, darness, etc. are still powers that rule tyria and could stil have physical embodiments. So primordius doesn’t need to be the spirit of fire. how about ruintion, or detruction, or even “first fire” ince he is a primevl force as stated by A-net? But keep thrashing around. You’ll have a hard time proving a loose theory wrong when we have so little confirmation of details.
Primordus is fire, no ands ifs or buts about that. And now you’re just grasping at straws to keep your “theory” afloat. First fire? Then what’s the Spirit of Fire? Second fire? There’s only one kind of fire. By your arguments, because the Six Gods are “Spirits of Action” the Elder Dragons would thus be “Spirits of Nature” – which is exactly what Egil talks about. However, those spirits mentioned by Egil are not Elder Dragons. This means that the Elder Dragons couldn’t be Spirits of Nature, and there aren’t ever any two Spirits of the Wild representing the same thing (similar for gods, or spirit/god overlapping).
This is where the debunking is. By your very argument, a Spirit of the Wild would be the first of its kind too, but it represents something that the Elder Dragons – or Spirits of Nature by your argument – do. Same goes for the Six Gods. So if there is already a spirit akin to the Spirits of the Wild that represents fire, which is what Primordus represents, then either they’re the same or your argument is wrong.
And you’ll have a hard time proving “a loose theory” (yours) right as well. Or even tangible, for that matter. However, disproving them is fairly easy, as I have done already (alongside just general weakening), but you fail to admit it.
Actually, it’s newer evidence ranks higher than interviews, but objective facts provided by a developer supersedes those provided by NPCs. However, this isn’t the case of objective fact, where they’re equal.
But my point isn’t in hierarchy of NPCs vs. interviews. This is about the fact that you’re saying Jeff states something he doesn’t.
I’m saying the interview says jeff states it. The interview is also cited in the official wikki as a source. So, seems credible, no?
Different views of the same thing which cannot co-exist.
Because Group A says that Group C is 1 and not 2, but Group B says that Group C is 2 and not 1.
Ergo, Group A disagrees with Group B. Therefore, both cannot be right at the same time.
It could be the case if it was Group A says that Group C is 1, while Group B says that Group C is 2, if and only if Group C was 1 and 2. However, for Group A to be right in the actual situation, Group B must be wrong. Therefore, they’re contradictory views.
I don’t think even ypou believe this. But i’ll put it in other terms. An englishman calls his pet a dog. A spaniard disagrees and calls it a perro. two diffrent cultures say it is two diffrent things and both are correct becasue becaue they are two diffrent cultural descriptions for the exact same thing.
Ergo, only one set of the Six Gods exist. Because the Mists contain within it the multiverse (yes, GW has a multiverse, but not necessarily multiple dimensions). If the multiple dimensions thing truly does exist, then by the “common theory” Jeff says (according to the interview), each universe would be a different dimension of the same universe. So if they come from the Mists, and not another universe (aka dimension), then they cannot have multiple counterparts. Kormir would, but there’d only be one Kormir the goddess while the rest would just be Kormir the dead-a-human.
They absolutlly could. since the mists are the building blocks of reality, the mist could build each universe it’s own set of gods. Since the interview said “In every universe, there would be a Kormir, Abaddon would be a god, and things like that.”
You apparently don’t see how the multiverse theory (which no, you didn’t introduce to me – it’s a common sci-fi story scenario) doesn’t support your hypothesis at all, and you’d be better off if you just dropped it completely, because quite frankly, it only hurts your argument – but you fail to see this, it seems.
It does and I’ve explained how. So….
That makes no sense. For starters, civilization doesn’t “harness the power of baser instinct.” And on top of that, nothing you said indicates a harnessing of power, since harnessing is proactive and your argument shows a passive obtaining if power (“born with it” basically).
Kormir was born with it? It makes complete sense if you have the ability to grasp it. I’m sorry that you apparentlly don’t :*(
The same thing I have been – Abaddon’s power going haywire upon death. It doesn’t act like how you argue Zhaitan’s could. If they don’t act the same, they’re not of the same design, which is what your argument is gearing towards
it was one of two possibilities. you ignored the other. But zaitans may be more stable since it could be the “purer” form.
Primordus is fire, no ands ifs or buts about that. And now you’re just grasping at straws to keep your “theory” afloat. First fire? Then what’s the Spirit of Fire? Second fire? There’s only one kind of fire. By your arguments, because the Six Gods are “Spirits of Action” the Elder Dragons would thus be “Spirits of Nature” – which is exactly what Egil talks about. However, those spirits mentioned by Egil are not Elder Dragons. This means that the Elder Dragons couldn’t be Spirits of Nature, and there aren’t ever any two Spirits of the Wild representing the same thing (similar for gods, or spirit/god overlapping).
You don’t know what primeval means?
This is where the debunking is. By your very argument, a Spirit of the Wild would be the first of its kind too, but it represents something that the Elder Dragons – or Spirits of Nature by your argument – do. Same goes for the Six Gods. So if there is already a spirit akin to the Spirits of the Wild that represents fire, which is what Primordus represents, then either they’re the same or your argument is wrong.
or they are similar with difrences. the same way we see death is handled by all three groups. Like I said, “a real hard time”.
And you’ll have a hard time proving “a loose theory” (yours) right as well. Or even tangible, for that matter. However, disproving them is fairly easy, as I have done already (alongside just general weakening), but you fail to admit it.
I don’t have to prove it right. All I need to do is make it fit which I have done, but you fail to admit it.
(edited by Dustfinger.9510)
1. Never said the interview with where Jeff talks about cultural views of the gods isn’t credible. I’m saying that since he’s talking about a subjective truth, there’s more sides to the coin. What he said is true – this is how they view them – but it’s not everything on the matter. Which is the case for a vast majority of his answers. He beats around the bush and leaves things without comment almost all the time.
2. Not the same thing. What your example is would be the second scenario I said (where Group C is both 1 and 2). What’s happening is that the humans are saying “The Spirits of the Wild are not spirits, they are gods.” And on the other hand the norn are going “the Six Gods are not gods, they are spirits.”
There is no saying “they are the same thing” they are saying “that person is wrong, because this is how it is.”
It’s not the same as calling a dog in one language, then calling it a dog in another language. It’s not a comparison of dog, cane, hund, etc. It’s just a bunch of “your right, I’m wrong”
Spirit != God
3. However, these wouldn’t be gods of other dimensions. And that is a humongous stretching of your hypothesis. Because remember, not only do the gods come from the Mists, but so do the forgotten and humans. This means that by your claim, the Mists had to make potentially millions of every single god, human, and forgotten that came from the Mists. At the same time. And as we can plainly see, the Mists’ creation of things is practically random. The chances of the Mists making thousands of perfect copies of the same thing – let alone millions of copies of hundreds of thousands of things at the same time… the chances of probability is pretty much off the charts in the “highly impossible” range.
Honestly, there’s a better chance that I’ll be hit with a dinosaur-shaped meteorite that ends the Earth.
4. No, actually, it doesn’t. It doesn’t help your argument whatsoever, because initially you argued that the Six Gods came from another dimension, however, now you’re saying they’re not. In other words, you removed the relevance of the argument, and now your argument requires something so impossible to occur when keeping the multiple dimension theory that it’s just falling apart.
5. Kormir? No. Grenth? No. Abaddon? No. But the original of the pantheon by your argument were – which to our knowledge currently includes Dwayna, Balthazar, Lyssa, Melandru, Dhuum, and Abaddon’s unknown predecessor (whom by all indications was supplanted before arrival on Tyria). But nonetheless, by your argument the Six Gods are not harnessing anything draconic – originals or successors.
6. I didn’t ignore the other possibility, since its a possibility I brought up (except for the “related to the ED anyways” bit). And now you’re just stretching things further by saying Zhaitan’s “purer.”
7. I do, but apparently you don’t understand how fire is fire, and Primordus while an ancient entity is fire while so is this other entity. Why would they separate new and old fire from each other? Makes no sense.
Again, your just stretching things further and further. Eventually your hypothesis is going to snap from the strain. Because you have next to nothing to back it up except for the unknowns.
By using that, I can say that Melandru’s a sylvari and Dwayna slept with every mortal sculptor she met. Can you disprove it? Nope. Do I have even an ounce of standing? Only so far as Melandru being related to a tree and Dwayna’s son’s father is a mortal sculptor.
8. Death isn’t handled by the Spirits of the Wild. Nor by the Elder Dragons, for that matter. Zhaitan is *Un*death. Dhuum/Grenth is Death.
9. True, you don’t have to prove it right, but your not proving it not wrong at least.
Just to say something, it’s never proven that the human gods and the spirits of the wild are the same thing, and the norn and human races doesn’t seem to see it like that either.
Guys, there are six Elder Dragons.
We have the following:
Zhaitan
Primordus
Jormag
Kralkatorrik
Deep Sea Dragon (Bubbles)
1 Unknown.We have 5 human gods so it doesn’t make any sense. Also, Tequatl is not an Elder dragon, he is simply a general for Zhaitan.
Speculations are that the 6th Elder dragon is the Pale Tree from which the Sylvari are born. This explains why you fight the dragon in your dream.
There are 6 human Gods.
1. Balthazar
2. Kormir
3. Grenth
4. Dwanya
5. Lyssa
6. Melandru
And if the gods had something to do with the dragons, which I highly doubt, but which is interesting to consider nonetheless, it would be:
1. Balthazar—Primord
2. Kormir—Deep Sea
3. Grenth—Zhaitan
4. Dwanya—Jormag
5. Lyssa—Kraltorrik
6. Melandru—Mordremoth
(edited by Weindrasi.3805)
@Windrasi: The first problem in your Match-Up is Kormir, who has absolutely nothing to do with Water save that she supplanted the previous God of Water (who’s domain of Water was actually given to Grenth who turned it into Ice before it was split up once more in the next 250 years to be Ice and Water under the domains of Grenth and Lyssa respectively). Kormir stops you from effectively matching up the Dragons because she’s the Goddess of Spirit , Truth, and Knowledge.
Similarly I’d argue that Jormag and Dwayna is also a bit of Stretch. Arguably Grenth doubles as both Zhaitan and Jormag being both the God of Death and Cold and Ice.
The next problem I have with that kind of match-up is that the Gods you’re using are not necessarily the Gods that would have originally entangled themselves with the Dragons.
If you REALLY want to link Dragons and Gods, I’d argue it’d have to be with the original Deities as best as we know. That being:
Dwayna
Melandru
Balthazar
Lyssa
Abbadon
Dhuum
However this list is, in my opinion, still inadequate because it is known that Abbadon wasn’t even the original God of the Oceans/Secrets/Knowledge. He supplanted another, as of yet unknown/unnamed God. However even using this technically incomplete list suffers its own problems.
Balth – Primord
Abbadon – Bubbles
Dhuum – Zhaitan
Lyssa – Kralkatorrik*
Melandru – ‘Green Zone’ Dragon. I’m hesitant to use the name Mordremoth.
*I know Konig has issues with this, but I think one of the biggest links between the two is colour and theme. Lyssa is a multi-faceted God, with heavily idealized concepts of beauty and perfection, as well as the general raw Energy and Chaos that often seems to carry with Crystals. No it’s not perfect, but still smoother than most
Once more Jormag is the odd one out (assuming you agree with Kralk and Lyssa). There is no God of Ice at this time, as Water is still the domain of Abbadon who is the God of Oceans, Water, and Secrets. In all honesty, I think there is a link between the Power of the Gods and the Dragons. The GW1 quest made this reference, but whether its specific Gods to Specific Dragons is currently unfeasible without more knowledge of who Abbadon supplanted as the God before him.
EDIT: Also the list of the ‘original’ pantheon also potentially screws up because we do not yet know whether or not Balthazars father was a full fledged God of the Pantheon before his Son.
(edited by Ratphink.4751)
I’m sure this was said before (excuse me, but I don’t feel like reading through the walls o’ text of a bloody quote war) I don’t really get why we are even arguing the silly notion of matching dragons with gods. We know of at least 4 out of the 6 gods to have come from elsewhere in the Mists, possibly fleeing a calamity that has befallen the human homeworld/home realm, while the dragons have always been on Tyria. Melandru is said to be the oldest in this Pantheon, and she came in third after Dwayna had first set foot on the stones of the Artesian Well and Balthazar had wrapped the land in a cleansing fire. Abaddon is also heavily implied to have come from the Mists, as he’s credited with being the last to know what transpired in the Mists. I doubt they would have tolerated Dhuum in their ranks for so long if he got all his powers by absorbing Zhaitan’s magic, and the story of Ilya and Lyss are also worded in a way that they came with the others, bringing the hope, joy, and beauty of humanity in herself/themselves (although I’d like to believe she also had a predecessor, mainly because of the fan fiction I’m writing along with Konig). This alone would nullify the hypothesis of God – Elder Dragon connection.
Then there’s the problem of unmatchable domains. I’m a firm believer that the various elements the gods and goddesses lord over come from the primal higher concept they are gods of, as well as their own personality. Grenth was always the Prince of Ice (and Sorrow) even before he became the god of death. Out of the four elements, the most you see of in a war is fire, the embodiment of untameable rage . Precious, soothing air that keeps us going (or what healthy newborn children do: they cry out for air at the beginning of their lives). Beautiful, capricious water, its surface an illusion in an on itself (think of the reflection), and its also a source of inspiration (don’t know about you, but many times I get my best ideas while swimming or having shower, and then there’s also Archimedes’ tale (Eureka!)).
And lastly, a point that involves my own theory regarding the source of the gods’ power: divinity. We know that looking at a god for too long blinds mortals. I personally link it to their divine nature, or more precisely, the energy that they might have harnessed. I believe it to be the First Sun.
Ah, yes, I am sorry. I did not see you coming. I am blind, you see. My eyes were seared in the light of the First Sun.
The First Sun, the star of divinity in the Mists that made six men and women gods and goddesses, in my opinion.
And Elder Dragons lack this sort of power. They feed on magic, they might be some twisted, sentient magic that coalesced into a physical form, but they are not divine. They could not be farther from it. Although it’s interesting what would happen if a dragon managed to feed on divinity. Instead of becoming a blinding “sun,” it might turn into a black hole, since they pervert everything in their corruption.
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