Guild Wars 2

Cyan.6904:

Just to say something, it’s never proven that the human gods and the spirits of the wild are the same thing, and the norn and human races doesn’t seem to see it like that either.

Don’t think anyone’s arguing such. Dustfinger’s arguing that the Six Gods, Spirits of the Wild, and Elder Dragons are all the same kind of being. Basically, he’s saying they’re all gods.

Weindrasi.3805:

And if the gods had something to do with the dragons, which I highly doubt, but which is interesting to consider nonetheless, it would be:

1. Balthazar—Primord
2. Kormir—Deep Sea
3. Grenth—Zhaitan
4. Dwanya—Jormag
5. Lyssa—Kraltorrik
6. Melandru—Mordremoth

Zhaitan is outright stated to be stealing from Grenth. Dwayna holds no ties to ice, and Lyssa holds no ties to crystal. And Kormir holds no ties to water, despite Abaddon having such.

The Six Gods’ elemental domains seem to be purely based on the individual gods, rather than what’s passed down. On the other hand, what’s passed down seems to be the more metaphysical/action/personality aspect – water went to Lyssa after Abaddon’s death; Dhuum never had ice; Kormir gained order and spirit from no where. As such, the Six Gods don’t cross with the Elder Dragons at all – not by force, at least.

In other words, Grenth is forced into being the god of death, but he chooses to be the god of ice, darkness, and so forth. Kormir is forced into being the goddess of knowledge(/truth/secrets), but chooses to be the god of order and spirit. Furthermore, even before becoming a god, Grenth was said to embody ice, sorrow, mortality, and judgment – ice and judgment carried over with his godhood, and mortality is pretty close to death as is, and he took on darkness and strict ethics – and a necromancer in Divinity’s Reach says everything Grenth’s about is just too depressing (hello sorrow!).

So if you want to begin comparing the Six Gods as an essence to anything, you must look at their passed down – aka mandatory – domains.

Melandru=Nature
Balthazar=War
Dwayna=Life
Grenth=Death
Kormir=Knowledge
Lyssa=Beauty (I’m guessing, might be illusions but beauty is more akin to what the others have)

In this regard, only Melandru and Grenth might cross with Mordremoth and Zhaitan respectively. But the others are lacking any connection in this. And we’re told outright that Grenth and Zhaitan are separate, and opposing, entities. And furthermore, Grenth-related statues and the Cathedral of Silence are somehow resisting Zhaitan’s corruption – if Grenth and Zhaitan’s powers were related, you’d suspect those to be the first to fall to corruption.

Ratphink.4751:

In all honesty, I think there is a link between the Power of the Gods and the Dragons. The GW1 quest made this reference, but whether its specific Gods to Specific Dragons is currently unfeasible without more knowledge of who Abbadon supplanted as the God before him.

I agree and disagree. The Path of Revelations’ quest chain does hold facets that are draconic in appearance, said to be related to power the gods harnessed and the Forgotten, however I don’t think it is in any way shape or form tied to the power that makes gods. I have a few points of reasoning this:

1. The Path of Revelations has a encrypted text at the end. The wiki has it translated – and in an interview, Jeff said it may hint to Orr. I suspect that it does.
2. In Arah explorable, seer path, we learn that the Six Gods pulled power from Zhaitan to strengthen the Bloodstone, but they did not know that it was Zhaitan they were pulling power from.
3. Forgotten magic counters ED corruption, and they fought the Elder Dragons. This may be where the tie between the draconic facets connect to the forgotten.

@Thalador: Four gods came from the Mists? Dwayna, Balthazar, and Melandru… who’s the fourth? We don’t know if Abaddon, Dhuum, and Lyssa came from the Mists and we know that Grenth didn’t. Though a line about Grenth implies he and Kormir are the only gods who didn’t come from the Mists – and there’s an Asia-only lore document from Nightfall that implies Abaddon came from the Mists, but its not confirmed.

And technically, Abaddon’s only credited to knowing something others don’t remember.

9. True, you don’t have to prove it right, but your not proving it not wrong at least.

This is all I need and …. I’m okay with it. And like the flowers that bloom in the spring, tra-la, now we can be friends again

My point in that, Dustfinger, is that you’ve yet to accurately refute the bits that poke holes in your hypothesis that pretty much makes is practically ready to crumble, and you just stretch scotch tape to cover said holes.

eeeh. I see it diffrentlly. What I see is that your rebuttles have degenerated to how you would rather view lore that doesn’t favor my theory when it is completly valid when veiwd from the right angle, albeit one of many possible angles. essentially it becomes an arguement of why it might not be correct instead of why it actually isn’t. so while I can respect your conclusion of the debate, i can’t agree with your interpretation of it. Your scotch tape is my explanation of how it actually is possible. You can chalk that up to a win if it lines up with your origional purpose but I will be doing the same thing.

If that “right angle” requires misinterpreting a developer’s words, talking about a possibility that’s overall irrelevant to your alterations that you don’t seem to admit making, and stretching your hypothesis (not really a theory) to fit around known lore, then yes, I would rather not view lore that way.

It all comes down to these three fine points:

1) Jeff wasn’t saying that the Spirits of the Wild and the Six Gods are the same type of creature; he was saying they’re viewed to be by cultures, and that these cultures view the other cultures’ deities to be like their own, and not how said other culture claims them to be.

2) The multiverse scenario requires millions of the same Six Gods being produced at the same time if they came directly from the Mists. All indications show that the Mists’ creation is more or less completely random, with a heavy chance of copying things it comes into contact with. But your original theory required the Six Gods to come from Tyria – and this you altered, thus making your multiverse relation unnecessary.

3) The norn knew of a spirit of fire, which you would call Primordus, before they knew of Primordus. Primordial fire or not, fire is fire and there’s no difference between the two. And you also completely avoid how these spirits of fire, mountains, darkness, seasons and other unknown spirits fit into your “theory.”

And this is ignoring the whole concept of the power, purpose, and mentality behind each group being different.

You have not proven these points wrong, but instead are just avoiding them or saying “no, you’re wrong” without pointing out why. All in favor of “it’s so unsupported you can’t prove it wrong!”

Well guess what, you can’t prove this wrong either:

I’m God.

Guess that means we’ll just have to agree to disagree, because we all know it actually is possible, especially if looked at the right angle, but you can’t disprove me. I can make millions of “theories” that are just as strong as yours, but even more unlikely.

Here’s other things to consider:

• You exclude Koda, the Great Dwarf, and Mellaggan.
• The Spirits of the Wild are guardian spirits, killing them weakens their race (though how is never stated – during the Minotaur Spirit norn storyline, Eir says that killing a Spirit of the Wild harms the “very soul of the wilderness”; according to Skuld in Hoelbrak there is (or used to be) a Spirit of the Wild for every animal, they are actual great beings that can be killed, that “all owls became weaker and more confused when their Spirit was killed” and that Raven is “the natural embodiment of all ravens”). The Six Gods are powerful beings with divine power of an unknown origin, killing a god destroys “nearby” (I use the term loosely) reality. An Elder Dragon is a corruptive magic-eating entity, killing them stops of the reduction and twisting of magic.

Killing a Spirit of the Wild or one of the Six Gods is a bad thing. Killing an Elder Dragon is a good thing.

All of this extrapolation you make is intended for two true purposes: you’re trying to connect the Six Gods to the Elder Dragons (something which is stated in-game almost outright to not be the case), and you’re trying to explain how the facets are draconic. But there’s a much easier explanation for the latter – and that’s just that it’s about the time the Six Gods harnessed Zhaitan’s power to strengthen the original Bloodstone before it got split. The Six Gods did harness a dragon’s power, so why wouldn’t the draconic facets who’s appearance is a reflection of the power the gods harnessed not be about this? Furthermore, the quest’s encrypted dialogue seems to point to Orr/Arah, and guess where the harnessing of Zhaitan’s power for the Bloodstones occurred? Arah. And the connection to the forgotten? Firstly, the forgotten fought the Elder Dragons. Secondly, their magic countered Elder Dragon corruption, and considering the fact we’re not all raving Zhaitan fanatics proclaiming power and immortality with lies like the Risen, something was done to prevent Zhaitan’s corruptive energies from corrupting the Bloodstones. Forgotten seem like a strong candidate for how.

There – I just made a much more plausible theory fulfilling the purpose of your “theory.”

Other than the facets, there is one connection between the Six Gods and the Elder Dragons – the Six Gods have a divine aura which makes looking at them like looking at the sun; the Elder Dragons’ rise alters the stars in the sky (Jormag’s awakening changed the auroras in the sky, and after Zhaitan’s fall a new star was born, said toe herald the awakening of a new Elder Dragon). But this isn’t in their power, and even then this tie is so tenuous a butter knife can snap it. Because there are FAR more differences than similarities between the Six Gods, Spirits of the Wild, and Elder Dragons (you can actually look at a Sprint of the Wild and Elder Dragon without going blind, for starters).

If that “right angle” requires misinterpreting a developer’s words, talking about a possibility that’s overall irrelevant to your alterations that you don’t seem to admit making, and stretching your hypothesis (not really a theory) to fit around known lore, then yes, I would rather not view lore that way.

I stopped reading after this. You are well known for making pretty obsurd extrapolations but when anybody interprets a fairly open comment (I generously lable it open so your own …interesting interpretation has room) in a way you didn’t then you state your opinion as fact. Where as I state where mine is opinion.This is very unreasonable and a waste of time for both of us. i’d rather discuss the actual lore but you seem intent on cluttering up your responses with nit-picky statements in a seeming effort to invalidate me. It’s very tiring to respond to that.

This one conversation is a prime example where you constantly go from an arguement of how my theory (which it is as I’ve cleanly demonstrated but you stubbornly ignore as per your M.O.) is impossible, to how it is unlikely. Then when i point that out, you rebut with blatant opinions that you present as fact.

i support all my pointas while you seem to think your opoinion is of equal strength to actual evidence. e.g.: The actual definitions of “theory”. A waste of both our time. * shrug *

I never claimed that it was “unlikely” – I only claimed that you never showed it as anything more than unlikely. I have always stood by the stance of it being impossible, and if you read the rest of my post, you’d have seen even more evidence that debunks your “theory.”

BTW, a theory is a tested hypothesis to hold solid evidence. Where is your solid evidence? An interpretation of an interview? A possibility presented in another which is by no means the actual situation – which you yourself have nulled into being unnecessary for your “theory?” Because those are the two “facts” that you’re coming from as far as I see it, and you just extend from there creating a connection between three groups of powerful beings that show only a relation between two of said groups but not the third (the Elder Dragons) while also completely ignoring all other powerful beings (as I pointed out in my previous post).

You’re right, this is becoming a waste of both our times, since you’re not even reading my posts fully as you just said.

the·o·ry
[thee-uh-ree, theer-ee] Show IPA

noun, plural the·o·ries.

2. a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural and subject to experimentation, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact. Synonyms: idea, notion hypothesis, postulate. Antonyms: practice, verification, corroboration, substantiation.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/theory?s=t

That’s right. You bypass clear points by either not reading them or out right ignoring them. i would answer your questions but they have already been answered in my previous posts. if you didn’t read them then, i won’t waste time trying to make you now.

I’ve read every post of yours fully and though I may not have responded to each bit, never ignored them. Those I didn’t respond to I simply had nothing to say about.

I refering to the points you ignored by maintaining the same position even though that position was shown invalid for whatever reason. As i said 4 post up, “theory” was an example.

either way, i’d rather not waste more time by reiterating what was said, then what wasn’t said, then what wasn’t responded to, then ….

when we both agree it’s a waste of time at this point.

Only because you’re ignoring parts of my posts, tbh – like how you have yet to explain where Koda, Mellaggan, and other gods fit into this, or how the very nature of what the Six Gods, Spirits of the Wild, and Elder Dragons are vastly differ (six divine beings with sway over the Mists; guardian spirits of an entire race per spirit; and magic-eating ancient beings that corrupt everything) – and probably more. Just as you outright stated to have not bothered reading the post I pointed such out in.

The only parts of your posts that I’ve ignored are those which I don’t hold disagreement with – e.g., when you said that Jormag might have absorbed energy from eating Owl in your defense of me bringing up how when a god dies, their divine energies go chaotic but when an Elder Dragon dies such doesn’t occur (or, as far as we know, for Spirits of the Wild). I can’t recall a single instance where I ignored a point you made about my position being the invalid part – only when you were defending the validity of your “theory.”

I check out of conversations when i see it’s a waste of time. and i tell you exactlly when i check out. so there’s no mystery when it happens. i won’t wast my time on deaf ears, remember? I like how you continue to ignore that.

i already gave an example, you have yet to answer about yet continue to keep bringing up. very tireing.

It’s only a waste of time because you’re “checking out” when there’s still topics to discuss. To me, this is no different than admitting you’re wrong, but you refuse to admit it.

I also find it ironic that despite “checking out” you continue to respond – with the same comments of “I’m done with this” (greatly simplified) when if you were really “checking out” you’d have stopped posting 5 posts ago.

There is definatlly topics. just not with you. I’ll decide what part is a waste for me and what’s not.

ironic like you continue to respond despite the fact that it’s a waste of time for you too, for any reason? But Call it what you want, it’s your lie

I’m just trying to get you to read what you blatantly said to have completely not bothered reading, and respond to it. It’s only a waste of time because you refuse to continue a conversation that never really ended, and for no real good reason – because I think your “theory” is false? You claim such without even bothering to read all my points.

1. You exclude Koda, the Great Dwarf, and Mellaggan (as well as other divine figures).
2. The Spirits of the Wild are guardian spirits, killing them weakens their race (though how is never stated – during the Minotaur Spirit norn storyline, Eir says that killing a Spirit of the Wild harms the “very soul of the wilderness”; according to Skuld in Hoelbrak there is (or used to be) a Spirit of the Wild for every animal, they are actual great beings that can be killed, that “all owls became weaker and more confused when their Spirit was killed” and that Raven is “the natural embodiment of all ravens”). The Six Gods are powerful beings with divine power of an unknown origin, killing a god destroys “nearby” (I use the term loosely) reality. An Elder Dragon is a corruptive magic-eating entity, killing them stops of the reduction and twisting of magic.
3. Killing a Spirit of the Wild or one of the Six Gods is a bad thing. Killing an Elder Dragon is a good thing.

Accept the fact that you can’t get me to read what I have resolved not to read. So it’s still a waste of time, no matter what the reason. Yet you continue with the irony.

I feel my reason is perfectly valid. I tried to discuss lore with you and it eventually ended up a wasted effort. Once I saw it was wasted, i descided not to continue to waste my time. I ahve no problem with someone pointing out the holes in my theories as some of my past posts have shown. i have no problem with people challenging them. But your way of doing these things is extremely exhausting.

I tlak about what i know. When I don’t know something, I say so. if I think I know something and it turns out I had a flawed understanding, I accept it and move on in order to refine my understanding of lore and it’s possibilities. Some of my past posts with other people will demonstrate this.

discussing these things with someone who takes their own interpretation as gospel even when they know it is only their own interpretation is a wasted effort becasue it will always go back to their own opinions with no room for anyone elses. And it wil always go back to pointing out to them that it is simply their own possibly flawed interpretation.

Call me a stubborn kitten, however I don’t take my own interpretation as gospel. I’ve only been taking facts on how different the three groups are presented as, and how your interpretation of what Jeff said is, in actuality, not what he said and thus is not itself absolute truth (it seems to me that you are the one taking your own interpretations as gospel here).

I kind of find it insulting, actually, that you think I give no room for others’ opinions, when in fact plenty of my theories are developed under thoughts from others – even if just side commentary.

Oh, and of course it’s their own possibly flawed interpretation – that’s what a theory, or hypothesis, is. An interpretation of a situation that is not fact and therefore possibly flawed. Actually, that’s the entire basis of what an interpretation is – one’s view on a subject; ergo, every single interpretation is subjective and not objective.

Though you have made two interpretations that you’ve been taking as fact from the very beginning, despite me trying to show you how those interpretations are not fact.

Interesting theory to consider, but I’ll offer one better:

The six dragons are counterparts to the Six Gods. Not the same as, but as the Gods wane, the Dragons get stronger and waken.

Konig: i see the events happened diffrentlly in the coversation. All we can do is agree to disagree at this point. Maybe i’ll reread the conversation some time in the future and see it from an angle you may have been pointing at all along. Night

I am not fully entuned with all the lore of the game. But the dragons don’t seem to as being the 6 gods. Currently we don’t know the age of the dragons. They seem to have been here a really long time. We kinda know when the 6 gods came to Tyria and it was either right at the end of the ED last awakening or right after it. Also it can be assumed that magic is some natural part of Tyria (planet) as we can see from some of the history. This would make the ED’s being more a part of the planet then beiing the 6 gods. If magic is part of the natural world then the ED’s might be the way to balance it out since they eat magic. I personally don’t think the 6 gods and the ED have any relationship other then what we try to give them.

No its not posible because the gods still give blessings. And the underwater dragon is Mordremoth.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

The six dragons are counterparts to the Six Gods. Not the same as, but as the Gods wane, the Dragons get stronger and waken.

This doesn’t make sense because the Elder Dragons have been on the world of Tyria long before the Six Gods were.

And nothing indicates that the Six Gods are waning or have waned in the past. They’re just not in contact with Tyrians.

Hjorje.9453:

If magic is part of the natural world then the ED’s might be the way to balance it out since they eat magic. I personally don’t think the 6 gods and the ED have any relationship other then what we try to give them.

My thoughts exactly.

Dark FQ.1038:

And the underwater dragon is Mordremoth.

Source? Nothing implies or indicates Mordremoth to be tied to water – rather, Mordremoth seems to be tied to earth and, possibly, plants. Mordremoth is not the deep sea dragon.

Another thing I thought of also, We don’t really know if the “dragons” are actually dragons or some other type of magic balance. From what I read about the history of magic in Tyria, it has always been here in some form. That is how the bloodstone was created or why, and also when the god gave humans the ability to use magic, I don’t think he gave them magic itself.

Knowing this, plus not knowing the true age of Tyria or the ‘dragons’ makes me think they came about to balance the amount of magic in the world, so this makes sense in how they awake and then go back to sleep.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

The six dragons are counterparts to the Six Gods. Not the same as, but as the Gods wane, the Dragons get stronger and waken.

This doesn’t make sense because the Elder Dragons have been on the world of Tyria long before the Six Gods were.

And nothing indicates that the Six Gods are waning or have waned in the past. They’re just not in contact with Tyrians.

It’s just an idea, neighbor. An interesting one to me, as it only takes a few assumptions to make it work:

- The Six Gods have always existed, but not in the form that humans of Tyria know them. Take a closer look at what I said, if the six dragons were active thousands of years ago, and the gods aren’t active at the same time they are for some reason, then of course we don’t see anything about them closer to the time the dragons awoke.

- The Six Gods are currently waning and have been drawing back since Nightfall; the Elder Dragons have been stirring since then. Jormag, and Primordius both got started not long after Nightfall, remember?

Issue is that the Elder Dragons have been around for at least 11,000 years give or take; on the other hand the Six Gods have only been known to have been around for roughly 2,000 years. Furthermore, the Six Gods can have predecessors, but by all indications the Elder Dragons cannot.

The Six Gods are not really “waning” – they’re just distancing themselves, and there’s even conflict between Grenth and Zhaitan (what with Zhaitan stealing souls from Grenth). All indication shows that they’re still as powerful as ever – they’re just not in or around Tyria. And they probably don’t want to be around magic-eating entities, given that they’re practically magic entities themselves. Elder Dragons are, by all rights and knowledge, the natural predators of gods. But that’s all the possible connection there seems to be.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Issue is that the Elder Dragons have been around for at least 11,000 years give or take; on the other hand the Six Gods have only been known to have been around for roughly 2,000 years. Furthermore, the Six Gods can have predecessors, but by all indications the Elder Dragons cannot.

The Six Gods are not really “waning” – they’re just distancing themselves, and there’s even conflict between Grenth and Zhaitan (what with Zhaitan stealing souls from Grenth). All indication shows that they’re still as powerful as ever – they’re just not in or around Tyria. And they probably don’t want to be around magic-eating entities, given that they’re practically magic entities themselves. Elder Dragons are, by all rights and knowledge, the natural predators of gods. But that’s all the possible connection there seems to be.

Valid points, I was just thinking it aloud. It’s definitely more plausible than “the dragons are the Six Gods in some form”.

Anything’s more plausible than something that’s been debunked – as I said, it’s outright stated that Zhaitan is opposed to all gods. Or at least to the five gods. If Zhaitan is a god or tied directly to a god, it’s Kormir/Abaddon/Abaddon’s unknown predecessor. However, undeath and knowledge hold no ties, so that’s unlikely.

Zhaitan is also opposed to the other dragons, from what I recall . . . they do not play well together.

Thing is – Lyssa’s priestesses proclaim her dead; Grenth’s priests proclaim he lies – and one of the Seven Reapers state that Zhaitan is stealing souls from Grenth; Dwayna’s priestesses proclaim they both empower them. Don’t recall what’s said from Melandru’s and Balthazar’s priests but they also speak as if the gods are not the same as Zhaitan.

Even if you argue “Zhaitan=Kormir, and the other dragons=the other gods” it still doesn’t work out.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Thing is – Lyssa’s priestesses proclaim her dead; Grenth’s priests proclaim he lies – and one of the Seven Reapers state that Zhaitan is stealing souls from Grenth; Dwayna’s priestesses proclaim they both empower them. Don’t recall what’s said from Melandru’s and Balthazar’s priests but they also speak as if the gods are not the same as Zhaitan.

Even if you argue “Zhaitan=Kormir, and the other dragons=the other gods” it still doesn’t work out.

And there I had a giggle thinking “so many people wanted Kormir dead, if it turned out she became Zhaitan then they’d get their wish!” . . . and realizing there wasn’t a chance it was real. Aww.