“Prepare for the coming of those whose departure caused the gods to weep! The time has come to atone for our arrogance!”
this is one of the lines of the flame seeker prophecies, both on the legendary and declared by Meerak the scribe in GW1, what does this line mean, who is it talking about abbadon, margonites, seer, mursaat, titans, I really have no clue could someone please give me some insight on this one.
well prophecies is the one campaign i haven’t played, but if the departure made the gods sad, i’d expect it to be referring to an ally of the gods, or at least a former ally that bailed out in a critical moment.
Thats why I thought maybe the Mursaat cause they abandoned the other races to fight the dragons but also it refers to them earlier as the unseen enemies. and then maybe abbadon but hes not plural so abbadon and the margonites, or the seer as they were nearly whipped out maybe i dont know just throwing out my guesses and thought process lol.
It’s the Orrians. They were the sacred keepers of Arah, the most pious, and the most favored and loved people of the gods. Vizier Khilbron, the Lich Lord, (and not Zhaitan) was the first to bring them back as undead after the Cataclysm that’d killed them all and sunk the nation, only to force them to invade Kryta in his mad pursuit of the Scepter of Orr and the fulfillment of the Prophecies. Hence their “coming” (reanimation) after their “departure” (death).
Ironically, it fits the Orr’s “rise” under Zhaitan, too.
(edited by Thalador.4218)
As Thalador says, the Orrian undead invading Kryta under Khilbron’s reign seems to be what that line is about.
Ironically, it fits the Orr’s “rise” under Zhaitan, too.
Ironically, other lines fit too with GW2’s time:
All shall be revealed in time, and with the revelation comes the end!
The history of the gods’ truth to be revealed, and with it comes the rise of the Elder Dragons (though it was reverse in most cases, the Jotun path seems to indicate the six Elder Dragon’s rise which may be the final push to what causes the true repetition of the cycle).
Alternatively, the reveal of the truth behind the Great Dwarf heralded the end.
Beware the unseen enemy!
Return of Lazarus. Rise of the sixth Elder Dragon. Scarlet who’s forces build up unnoticed (especially if MA are tied to her).
Follow the Prince! Though he is doomed, his is the only way to salvation!
This one doesn’t work as well as t he others, since there’s no active prince unless you count Trahearne (a firstborn, son of the sylvari leader (thus “queen”; thus making him a “prince”)) if he dies, or Wade Sammuelsson as heir to the throne.
Trust not the treacherous man, we have been warned!
Caudecus! Return of Lazarus is foretold! :P
An opening will be given to the disciples of the Unseen. The peaks and valleys of the Shiverpeaks will be painted in blood.
Kryta, embroiled with civil war, will see the return of the White Mantle.
The Shiverpeaks are covered in the battles of the dredge, Molten Alliance, and krait (in Mount Maelstrom/Timberline Falls).
At this time, the Ascendants will rise, and the way to the Door will be clear.
Should the Crystal Desert open, and the risen clear from the Ring of Fire…
Naturally, while this is fun and all, Glint tells us the Flameseeker Prophecies refers to the events of the first game, but still humorous to see the few more connections.
The Mursaat shall return!
On a related note:
I’m kind of curious when the titans were last on the world of Tyria, since its implied they were there once “eons” ago.
If the searing magic is related to Kralkatorrik, that’d make a connection between the titans and the elder dragons… which would mean that the god of secrets would have had at least some level of knowledge about the elder dragons, which actually seems pretty reasonable. That could also potentially make titans relevant to the current story, meaning we might not have seen the last of them.
…However, that only works if searing magic is related to Kralkatorrik (or any other elder dragon, for that matter) at all.
If the searing magic is related to Kralkatorrik, that’d make a connection between the titans and the elder dragons… which would mean that the god of secrets would have had at least some level of knowledge about the elder dragons, which actually seems pretty reasonable. That could also potentially make titans relevant to the current story, meaning we might not have seen the last of them.
…However, that only works if searing magic is related to Kralkatorrik (or any other elder dragon, for that matter) at all.
i think people cling too much to the fact that both kralk and the titans (or rather, the searing cauldrons) burn stuff up with crystals. that’s like saying eles tap into primordus’ power when they use lava font, or that necros are disciples of zhaitan.
If the searing magic is related to Kralkatorrik, that’d make a connection between the titans and the elder dragons… which would mean that the god of secrets would have had at least some level of knowledge about the elder dragons, which actually seems pretty reasonable. That could also potentially make titans relevant to the current story, meaning we might not have seen the last of them.
…However, that only works if searing magic is related to Kralkatorrik (or any other elder dragon, for that matter) at all.
i think people cling too much to the fact that both kralk and the titans (or rather, the searing cauldrons) burn stuff up with crystals. that’s like saying eles tap into primordus’ power when they use lava font, or that necros are disciples of zhaitan.
I’m not saying they are necessarily related, but it’s a possibility. It’s not just the crystals, either.
“When the Charr next struck against Ascalon, it was with all the fury of destiny denied. With a magic item known as the Cauldron of Cataclysm, the Shamans called forth the magic of the Titans and performed the Ritual of the Searing. It is said the Cauldron’s magic was older than the Charr, older even than recorded history, and forged by ancient entities fallen into sleep and quiescence.”
-The Ecology of the Charr
It’d be pretty bizarre if there were two completely unrelated occurrences of purple incendiary crystals plummeting out of the sky…
Ironically, other lines fit too with GW2’s time:
(snip)
You’ve pretty much illustrated how prophecies work in real life. Like when people interpret the works of Nostradamus, or various religious books.
Prophecies are often worded in such a way, that they can easily be applied to various other events. Even if the prophecies themselves were very clearly meant for the time when they were written. But that doesn’t stop people from still making up wild theories.
In the case of Glint, they clearly all refer to events in GW Prophecies.
It’d be pretty bizarre if there were two completely unrelated occurrences of purple incendiary crystals plummeting out of the sky…
However, the crystals that came down during the Searing were kind of blue, mixed with small amounts of purple. But still mostly blue.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/e/e7/Ruins_in_Pockmark_Flats.jpg
In GW2 some of the crystals look more purple. But still not as purple as Kralkatorrik’s crystals. So is there a link? Or is purple just a popular color for crystals? I don’t think there’s a clear link here.
(edited by Mad Queen Malafide.7512)
Given that they’ve been on the ground for a few hundred years gathering dust and dirt, and that their source, if related, was likely altered from the original magic of Kralkatorrik, I don’t find them too different.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/images/1/1b/Tail_of_the_Star_God.jpg
Also, I find it noteworthy that all the Flame Legion structures are practically identical to the spiked ground of the Dragon Brand, only differing in color.
The Searing crystals are the same shade as the Branded ones- it’s just that the Branded ones are most often seen under much dimmer lighting. That they changed the color from GW1 only drives home the point- the devs consciously decided to make the Searing crystals the same as the Branded ones. At the very least, there is an intentional red herring in play.
i think people cling too much to the fact that both kralk and the titans (or rather, the searing cauldrons) burn stuff up with crystals. that’s like saying eles tap into primordus’ power when they use lava font, or that necros are disciples of zhaitan.
It deals a hell of a lot more than just crystals that burn stuff.
It should be noted that the smaller GW2 “Searing Crystals” are purple. The Searing Effigy uses purple flames. Etc.
It’s the fact that both use purple crystals and purple flames, and the fact that the Flame Legion enchanted the many Searing Cauldrons with some sort of magic from somewhere… and what was residing right in charr territory at the time? Kralkatorrik.
However, the crystals that came down during the Searing were kind of blue, mixed with small amounts of purple. But still mostly blue.
This seems to be a sort of retcon done, since the two Searing Crystals left in GW2 are purple.
Though there’s also the fact that Glint and her crystals are blue.
but kralkatorrik’s magic, as described in EoD, is actually golden. the purple comes later, as if the hot crystals were cooling down.
and somehow, i don’t see kralk delving into arts and crafts and making pots.
i’m not saying it’s impossible, i’m just saying there’s hardly enough evidence to draw any conclusions.
EDIT: here’s an exerpt from EoD:
“Then the golden gale moved on, pouring on new ground and baking it and transforming it. The dragon scudded away like a thunderhead”
“A golden thunderstroke broke across Chief Kronnon and his warriors. It bathed them. It broiled them. It turned their muscles into crystals and their bones into stone.”
point is, kralk uses golden magic to bake things, and the crystals are a consequence. meanwhile, searing crystals are the cause of the burning, and most definitely not golden.
(edited by BrunoBRS.5178)
I don’t see what crafts and arts or pots comes into play with the discussion of charr shamans siphoning power from a hibernating Kralkatorrik to empower the Searing Cauldrons.
As to the coloring… Branded use purple fire and purple lightning.
And for EoD’s mentionings… it also makes a lot of mention of black. But oddly enough, not once are the branded called purple. Makes me wonder just how early in development it was being written.
After witnessing the active replica of the Cauldron of Searing in the Crown Pavilion, and seeing how it emits a cone of blue light skywards (and after checking the cinematic where Burntfur activates it – a globe of blue light shoots into the sky), I’ve become more convinced of my current theory about the Cauldrons’ origins: the Giganticus Lupicus.
The Molten Berserker in Molten Facility was equipped with peculiar technology. Aside from the dredge boxing gauntlets, he looked fairly cyborgish and infused with blue light (eyes, veins, etc.) – which is strange, since Flame Legion is all about red, gold, and black (the Godforged have flaming eyes). The Risen Lupicus in Arah seems to have been a cyborg before his death and reanimation (left steel hand is grafted into flesh, and there are those metal rings strapped onto his chest and arms emitting green light/gas). Both the Berserker and the Lupicus use shadowstepping. I’m inclined to believe that the Lupicus preferred the use of cybernetic augmentation, and the color of their signature magic was blue.
And before they were wiped out, they’d forged WMDs capable of being powered up by the magic of dragons (the fact that we only see what is suspected to be Kralkatorrik’s energies could be connected to the fact that the shamans only harnessed him to charge the cauldrons up). They might’ve believed what some humans believe: that nuke works fine against any enemy, including the incomprehensibly powerful that’s threatening to eradicate your race without breaking sweat. The dragons might’ve only greatly thinned their numbers before going back to sleep, but what if it was the Lupicus’ careless use of dragon-enchanted WMDs that pushed them into extinction – corrupting and ravaging more arable, habitable land than the dragons would’ve.
After witnessing the active replica of the Cauldron of Searing in the Crown Pavilion, and seeing how it emits a cone of blue light skywards (and after checking the cinematic where Burntfur activates it – a globe of blue light shoots into the sky), I’ve become more convinced of my current theory about the Cauldrons’ origins: the Giganticus Lupicus.
The Molten Berserker in Molten Facility was equipped with peculiar technology. Aside from the dredge boxing gauntlets, he looked fairly cyborgish and infused with blue light (eyes, veins, etc.) – which is strange, since Flame Legion is all about red, gold, and black (the Godforged have flaming eyes). The Risen Lupicus in Arah seems to have been a cyborg before his death and reanimation (left steel hand is grafted into flesh, and there are those metal rings strapped onto his chest and arms emitting green light/gas). Both the Berserker and the Lupicus use shadowstepping. I’m inclined to believe that the Lupicus preferred the use of cybernetic augmentation, and the color of their signature magic was blue.
And before they were wiped out, they’d forged WMDs capable of being powered up by the magic of dragons (the fact that we only see what is suspected to be Kralkatorrik’s energies could be connected to the fact that the shamans only harnessed him to charge the cauldrons up). They might’ve believed what some humans believe: that nuke works fine against any enemy, including the incomprehensibly powerful that’s threatening to eradicate your race without breaking sweat. The dragons might’ve only greatly thinned their numbers before going back to sleep, but what if it was the Lupicus’ careless use of dragon-enchanted WMDs that pushed them into extinction – corrupting and ravaging more arable, habitable land than the dragons would’ve.
That’s an interesting theory – and it actually kind of fits in with the theory of mine about the connection.
My theory is that when the six gods lived in Arah, Abaddon was studying the elder dragons. He may have found the cauldrons, and tapped in to the power of the dragons. Taking these cauldrons and magic from the dragons into his realm, he made the Foundry of Failed Creations, where he started doing what Inquest is doing now – experimenting with the dragon energy. Somewhere between that and the events of the Guild Wars, he succeeded in creating his own minions through that study – the titans. When you look at the different kinds of titans he had, they were made of fire and stone, of ice, of flesh… now does that not seem familiar?
When you look at the different kinds of titans he had, they were made of fire and stone, of ice, of flesh… now does that not seem familiar?
How does that make them different from elementals? Surely all those elementalists aren’t studying dragon magic to make their creations.
No, Titans are demons that form from what ever material is available. That is why the titans that emerged in Kryta were made of plants, and the titans in the foundry were made of flesh.
When you look at the different kinds of titans he had, they were made of fire and stone, of ice, of flesh… now does that not seem familiar?
How does that make them different from elementals? Surely all those elementalists aren’t studying dragon magic to make their creations.
No, Titans are demons that form from what ever material is available. That is why the titans that emerged in Kryta were made of plants, and the titans in the foundry were made of flesh.
But that is not the carrying argument. The carrying argument is that “it is said the Cauldron’s magic was older than the Charr, older even than recorded history, and forged by ancient entities fallen into sleep and quiescence”. The Titans themselves do not fit the description comfortably (how would they even forge such things?), yet they gave the cauldrons to the Burnt warband, who used them to rain magic that was a combination of crystals and flames, and now we have flame legion using the same kind of stone shaping in their fortresses that is found all over the Dragon Brand. Add in the points Konig covered, and it all starts looking quite cohesive.
I don’t see what crafts and arts or pots comes into play with the discussion of charr shamans siphoning power from a hibernating Kralkatorrik to empower the Searing Cauldrons.
As to the coloring… Branded use purple fire and purple lightning.
And for EoD’s mentionings… it also makes a lot of mention of black. But oddly enough, not once are the branded called purple. Makes me wonder just how early in development it was being written.
dismissing canon because you think it might be retconned is not nice. like i said, the branding is caused by golden power, the purple comes later, like hot metal cooling down. none of the branded creatures, as far as i know, has the power to turn anything into other branded creatures, and the brand itself is not expanding, implying kralk is the only one that can brand stuff and burn land causing crystallic formations.
the arts and crafts part was a tongue in cheek comment about how the flame legion did not make the cauldron, they found it. the obvious question then would be “who made it?”.
also, one last thing about the difference between searing and kralk: kralkatorrik burns things, and those things turn into crystals. searing magic uses the crystals to burn stuff. it’s the opposite process. in one, crystals cause the burning, and in the other, the burning causes the crystals to sprout. kralk’s crystals, as far as we know, do NOT burn anything.
and there’s the fact that searing magic didn’t turn anyone into branded creatures either. if it was kralk’s magic that was being used, then we’d have had ascalonian branded walking around for much longer. “it wasn’t kralk himself that used his branding powers” doesn’t stick either, because as we know, none of the other dragons need to personally be the agent of corruption, as long as it’s done with their magic (with varying degrees of effort involved, but i’d imagine the power to brand the land would be more than enough)
(edited by BrunoBRS.5178)
none of the branded creatures, as far as i know, has the power to turn anything into other branded creatures, and the brand itself is not expanding, implying kralk is the only one that can brand stuff and burn land causing crystallic formations.
and there’s the fact that searing magic didn’t turn anyone into branded creatures either. if it was kralk’s magic that was being used, then we’d have had ascalonian branded walking around for much longer. “it wasn’t kralk himself that used his branding powers” doesn’t stick either, because as we know, none of the other dragons need to personally be the agent of corruption, as long as it’s done with their magic (with varying degrees of effort involved, but i’d imagine the power to brand the land would be more than enough)
See what I see?
none of the branded creatures, as far as i know, has the power to turn anything into other branded creatures, and the brand itself is not expanding, implying kralk is the only one that can brand stuff and burn land causing crystallic formations.
and there’s the fact that searing magic didn’t turn anyone into branded creatures either. if it was kralk’s magic that was being used, then we’d have had ascalonian branded walking around for much longer. “it wasn’t kralk himself that used his branding powers” doesn’t stick either, because as we know, none of the other dragons need to personally be the agent of corruption, as long as it’s done with their magic (with varying degrees of effort involved, but i’d imagine the power to brand the land would be more than enough)
See what I see?
first quote states that the branded creatures cannot brand the land.
you people are comparing searing cauldrons with the magic that caused the brand.
second quote addresses that by saying that if searing magic = branding magic, then there would be branded creatures.
there is no contradiction.
none of the branded creatures, as far as i know, has the power to turn anything into other branded creatures, and the brand itself is not expanding, implying kralk is the only one that can brand stuff and burn land causing crystallic formations.
and there’s the fact that searing magic didn’t turn anyone into branded creatures either. if it was kralk’s magic that was being used, then we’d have had ascalonian branded walking around for much longer. “it wasn’t kralk himself that used his branding powers” doesn’t stick either, because as we know, none of the other dragons need to personally be the agent of corruption, as long as it’s done with their magic (with varying degrees of effort involved, but i’d imagine the power to brand the land would be more than enough)
See what I see?
first quote states that the branded creatures cannot brand the land.
you people are comparing searing cauldrons with the magic that caused the brand.
second quote addresses that by saying that if searing magic = branding magic, then there would be branded creatures.
there is no contradiction.
But it is a blatant contradiction. First you say that the branded creatures that use magic originating from the dragon do not spread corruption, and then proceed to say that using magic originating from the dragon would be impossible without causing corruption.
none of the branded creatures, as far as i know, has the power to turn anything into other branded creatures, and the brand itself is not expanding, implying kralk is the only one that can brand stuff and burn land causing crystallic formations.
and there’s the fact that searing magic didn’t turn anyone into branded creatures either. if it was kralk’s magic that was being used, then we’d have had ascalonian branded walking around for much longer. “it wasn’t kralk himself that used his branding powers” doesn’t stick either, because as we know, none of the other dragons need to personally be the agent of corruption, as long as it’s done with their magic (with varying degrees of effort involved, but i’d imagine the power to brand the land would be more than enough)
See what I see?
first quote states that the branded creatures cannot brand the land.
you people are comparing searing cauldrons with the magic that caused the brand.
second quote addresses that by saying that if searing magic = branding magic, then there would be branded creatures.
there is no contradiction.
But it is a blatant contradiction. First you say that the branded creatures that use magic originating from the dragon do not spread corruption, and then proceed to say that using magic originating from the dragon would be impossible without causing corruption.
you’re misinterpreting me. i said:
1- the dragon does not have to be present, or an active force, for the corruption to happen, as seen with other dragons;
2- the corruption process has varying degrees of difficulty (zhaitan’s minions just need to kill someone to corrupt them, jormag needs them alive and force them through a long ritual, and the corruption takes time to happen fully). creating branded creatures is obviously something mere minions can’t do, but if someone were to replicate (or tap into) the same magic kralkatorrik used to create the brand, then the corruption would’ve been visible.
and last but not least,
3- branding magic is the only way to create branded creatures, and if the searing did not create branded creatures, then it is not branding magic. the searing and the branding have different methods and different outcomes, they just both share the theme of crystals and burning.
like i said, the brand’s process is “melt everything with magic, crystals come out of it”, while the searing’s process is “rain crystals everywhere, burn things with said crystals”. the outcome and the cause are reversed in the searing’s case. even if you believe i’m wrong regarding the corruption process and its challenges, the argument remains that the branding and the searing are two different processes, no more similar than an elementalist’s magic and primordus’ corruption.
(edited by BrunoBRS.5178)
none of the branded creatures, as far as i know, has the power to turn anything into other branded creatures, and the brand itself is not expanding, implying kralk is the only one that can brand stuff and burn land causing crystallic formations.
and there’s the fact that searing magic didn’t turn anyone into branded creatures either. if it was kralk’s magic that was being used, then we’d have had ascalonian branded walking around for much longer. “it wasn’t kralk himself that used his branding powers” doesn’t stick either, because as we know, none of the other dragons need to personally be the agent of corruption, as long as it’s done with their magic (with varying degrees of effort involved, but i’d imagine the power to brand the land would be more than enough)
See what I see?
first quote states that the branded creatures cannot brand the land.
you people are comparing searing cauldrons with the magic that caused the brand.
second quote addresses that by saying that if searing magic = branding magic, then there would be branded creatures.
there is no contradiction.
But it is a blatant contradiction. First you say that the branded creatures that use magic originating from the dragon do not spread corruption, and then proceed to say that using magic originating from the dragon would be impossible without causing corruption.
you’re misinterpreting me. i said:
1- the dragon does not have to be present, or an active force, for the corruption to happen, as seen with other dragons;
2- the corruption process has varying degrees of difficulty (zhaitan’s minions just need to kill someone to corrupt them, jormag needs them alive and force them through a long ritual, and the corruption takes time to happen fully). creating branded creatures is obviously something mere minions can’t do, but if someone were to replicate (or tap into) the same magic kralkatorrik used to create the brand, then the corruption would’ve been visible.
and last but not least,
3- branding magic is the only way to create branded creatures, and if the searing did not create branded creatures, then it is not branding magic. the searing and the branding have different methods and different outcomes, they just both share the theme of crystals and burning.
like i said, the brand’s process is “melt everything with magic, crystals come out of it”, while the searing’s process is “rain crystals everywhere, burn things with said crystals”. the outcome and the cause are reversed in the searing’s case. even if you believe i’m wrong regarding the corruption process and its challenges, the argument remains that the branding and the searing are two different processes, no more similar than an elementalist’s magic and primordus’ corruption.
You differ the magic used by the branded from the magic used to make the branded, but then refuse to compare the magic used by the branded to the searing magic. The branded attack by summoning crystals that explode to purple flames. The searing cauldrons summoned crystals from the sky that exploded into flames. Just because the branding and the searing are two different processes, doesn’t mean that they are the only two processes.
Besides, you are wrong about how the dragons corrupt their minions. If it was enough that the victim was just killed by risen to become risen, why would Zhaitan’s army ship dead bodies from the mainland to be made into risen? Jormag can corrupt dead as well (from one of the novels), and Uldek the Fierce, the chieftain of Agrak Kraal, was turned branded when he attempted to tame branded beasts.
My theory is that when the six gods lived in Arah, Abaddon was studying the elder dragons. He may have found the cauldrons, and tapped in to the power of the dragons. Taking these cauldrons and magic from the dragons into his realm, he made the Foundry of Failed Creations, where he started doing what Inquest is doing now – experimenting with the dragon energy. Somewhere between that and the events of the Guild Wars, he succeeded in creating his own minions through that study – the titans. When you look at the different kinds of titans he had, they were made of fire and stone, of ice, of flesh… now does that not seem familiar?
There’s a couple problems with your theory:
none of the branded creatures, as far as i know, has the power to turn anything into other branded creatures, and the brand itself is not expanding, implying kralk is the only one that can brand stuff and burn land causing crystallic formations.
You need to play more in Iron Marches and Fields of Ruin then.
Because 1) The Brand itself is expanding according to NPCs. and 2) the Branded do corrupt other beings.
the arts and crafts part was a tongue in cheek comment about how the flame legion did not make the cauldron, they found it. the obvious question then would be “who made it?”.
The titans gave it to them – maybe the titans made it, or maybe the mursaat or jotun or heck even the dwarves (wouldn’t be the first time the dwarves made something out of the dragons’ magic/blood/body).
It was never once said that the Flame Legion made the original Cauldron of Cataclysm. The charr likely made all those copies, but the original is the question.
also, one last thing about the difference between searing and kralk: kralkatorrik burns things, and those things turn into crystals. searing magic uses the crystals to burn stuff. it’s the opposite process. in one, crystals cause the burning, and in the other, the burning causes the crystals to sprout. kralk’s crystals, as far as we know, do NOT burn anything.
Technically with the Searing, it’s burning and crystals at the same time. Just like some of the Branded, including the Shatterer, actually.
and there’s the fact that searing magic didn’t turn anyone into branded creatures either. if it was kralk’s magic that was being used, then we’d have had ascalonian branded walking around for much longer. “it wasn’t kralk himself that used his branding powers” doesn’t stick either, because as we know, none of the other dragons need to personally be the agent of corruption, as long as it’s done with their magic (with varying degrees of effort involved, but i’d imagine the power to brand the land would be more than enough)
If Angel’s interview is to be believed, then the Elder Dragons’ magic while hibernating isn’t corruptive in the least.
But I like how you contradict yourself there, even though your initial statement was wrong.
-more in next post-
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
1- the dragon does not have to be present, or an active force, for the corruption to happen, as seen with other dragons;
2- the corruption process has varying degrees of difficulty (zhaitan’s minions just need to kill someone to corrupt them, jormag needs them alive and force them through a long ritual, and the corruption takes time to happen fully). creating branded creatures is obviously something mere minions can’t do, but if someone were to replicate (or tap into) the same magic kralkatorrik used to create the brand, then the corruption would’ve been visible.
3- branding magic is the only way to create branded creatures, and if the searing did not create branded creatures, then it is not branding magic. the searing and the branding have different methods and different outcomes, they just both share the theme of crystals and burning.
like i said, the brand’s process is “melt everything with magic, crystals come out of it”, while the searing’s process is “rain crystals everywhere, burn things with said crystals”. the outcome and the cause are reversed in the searing’s case. even if you believe i’m wrong regarding the corruption process and its challenges, the argument remains that the branding and the searing are two different processes, no more similar than an elementalist’s magic and primordus’ corruption.
Despite point #2 being wrong, you contradict yourself still. You state:
Branded do not make more branded.
The Searing does not make branded.
Therefore, the Searing is not Branded magic.
However, there is no logic to this conclusion you make. Furthermore, by saying Branded cannot make more branded, you’re stating “not all Branded magic can make Branded.” Which turns your argument into this:
Branded magic does not always make more branded.
The Searing does not make branded.
Therefore, the Searing is not Branded magic.
However, the proper conclusion to the two facts you bring up is this:
The Searing is not magic that makes branded.
Which is an obvious observation. It does not disprove the Searing from being related to Kralkatorrik.
Now with correcting your point to, it’s still accurate to state that not all Branded magic makes Branded, so the modified argument remains the same – the result is only that we know the Searing does not make branded, but still can fall under the category of “Branded magic that doesn’t make Branded” – e.g., the kind of magic most Branded use (in the game at least; in lore, it may be different just like how in lore anyone who dies in the vicinity of risen become risen but we see many individuals die in Orr but remain unchanged).
Another false notion you create is your statement of the brand’s process is “melt everything with magic, crystals come out of it” – now, while this may be how Kralkatorrik is presented as, the Branded themselves are not.
The Branded can be seen using fire without crystals. They can be seen using crystals without fire. And they can be seen using both at once (like the Searing actually is – it isn’t “use crystals to burn” but “use burning crystals”). Furthermore, if you watch how the Branded spawn, at least in some cases they spawn from burning crystals falling. And there are Branded in Iron Marches made by entrapping lifeforms within crystals (much like Subject Alpha’s imprisonment crystal).
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
i stand corrected on the minions part, but my point is, like i said on that post, unchanged, even if the point about the minions were to be proven wrong.
there is one witnessed, known instance of a place being “branded”: when kralkatorrik awoke. he melted the landscape with his breath and stuff got crystallized as a result from it.
on the other hand, the searing used magic crystals to set things aflame.
what i am saying, and which should be kind of obvious, is that the searing is not a “branding” process. it’s just setting stuff on fire. ascalon post searing looked exactly like you’d expect from a meteor shower, the difference being the “meteors” were magic crystals that set everything on fire.
there are similarities between the magic the branded use and the searing, yes, but that’s not enough to draw a connection between the two. “both involve purple crystals and fire” is, like stated a bunch of times before in this thread, as strong of a connection as zhaitan and necros, or fire elementalists and primordus.
Except that the Searing doesn’t use crystals to set things aflame. The crystals were already on fire when they appear. It is a simultaneous use of crystal and fire.
And to your argument: the asura gate network was not a “destroyer-ing” process either.
Enhancing the bloodstone was not a “risen-ing” process either.
So it seems pretty pointblank obvious that magic directly from an Elder Dragon does not always corrupt because we have two cases where they do not corrupt while the Elder Dragons – like Kralkatorrik in this case – were hibernating yet had magic siphoned.
And there’s more than just mere “similarities.” Though even if I list them again, you’d remain unconvinced that color, functionality, proximity, and a haywire effigy imbued with “Searing” magic is more than some similarities. The alteration of the two remaining Searing crystals, the odd color of the flames of the Searing crystals, and so forth… is there definitive proof? No. But there’s more than enough reason to suspect, which is more than what you attest for.
It is more than just both involving the color purple.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
My theory is that when the six gods lived in Arah, Abaddon was studying the elder dragons. He may have found the cauldrons, and tapped in to the power of the dragons. Taking these cauldrons and magic from the dragons into his realm, he made the Foundry of Failed Creations, where he started doing what Inquest is doing now – experimenting with the dragon energy. Somewhere between that and the events of the Guild Wars, he succeeded in creating his own minions through that study – the titans. When you look at the different kinds of titans he had, they were made of fire and stone, of ice, of flesh… now does that not seem familiar?
There’s a couple problems with your theory:
- Indications point to the Titans being creations of Dhuum. The Fury is the one in charge of making the titans, and it is a general of Dhuum.
- Titans are created by twisting souls. The appearance they take is based on their environment.
- Titans are said to have existed eons ago in Tyria and are as old as the Forgotten race. This would mean that they’re older than your theory would credit them to be.
- The Foundry of Failed Creations is called such not because of the titans, as many believe, but because it was sundered by the Fury when it broke free, twisting it into mimicries of reality but failed to make proper mimicries.
Some links you should read about the Fury and Titans:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Relkyss_the_Broken
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Aurus_Trevess
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Forgotten_Warden
And believe me, I dug through those dialogues when re-evaluating my theory, I just missed the last one you linked.
After witnessing the active replica of the Cauldron of Searing in the Crown Pavilion, and seeing how it emits a cone of blue light skywards (and after checking the cinematic where Burntfur activates it – a globe of blue light shoots into the sky), I’ve become more convinced of my current theory about the Cauldrons’ origins: the Giganticus Lupicus.
The Molten Berserker in Molten Facility was equipped with peculiar technology. Aside from the dredge boxing gauntlets, he looked fairly cyborgish and infused with blue light (eyes, veins, etc.) – which is strange, since Flame Legion is all about red, gold, and black (the Godforged have flaming eyes). The Risen Lupicus in Arah seems to have been a cyborg before his death and reanimation (left steel hand is grafted into flesh, and there are those metal rings strapped onto his chest and arms emitting green light/gas). Both the Berserker and the Lupicus use shadowstepping. I’m inclined to believe that the Lupicus preferred the use of cybernetic augmentation, and the color of their signature magic was blue.
And before they were wiped out, they’d forged WMDs capable of being powered up by the magic of dragons (the fact that we only see what is suspected to be Kralkatorrik’s energies could be connected to the fact that the shamans only harnessed him to charge the cauldrons up). They might’ve believed what some humans believe: that nuke works fine against any enemy, including the incomprehensibly powerful that’s threatening to eradicate your race without breaking sweat. The dragons might’ve only greatly thinned their numbers before going back to sleep, but what if it was the Lupicus’ careless use of dragon-enchanted WMDs that pushed them into extinction – corrupting and ravaging more arable, habitable land than the dragons would’ve.
My theory is that when the six gods lived in Arah, Abaddon was studying the elder dragons. He may have found the cauldrons, and tapped in to the power of the dragons. Taking these cauldrons and magic from the dragons into his realm, he made the Foundry of Failed Creations, where he started doing what Inquest is doing now – experimenting with the dragon energy. Somewhere between that and the events of the Guild Wars, he succeeded in creating his own minions through that study – the titans. When you look at the different kinds of titans he had, they were made of fire and stone, of ice, of flesh… now does that not seem familiar?
As it was mentioned in the posts above, the core of titans are tormented souls filled with malice and hate. However, you’re right that they became demonic in nature after their conversion was complete. They eat the souls of mortals, as it is proven by the unfortunate end of Grafaz Steelfur’s warband and how a titan lord threatened to devour Scorch Emberspire when the shaman’s spirit made a pilgrim to beseech his “gods.”
Given the Ancient Seer’s line about the titans and their age, I’m quite convinced they were around during the last dragonrise. But not as some most special dragon minions…
… but enslaved soldiers of the mursaat instead. Mursaat magic deals heavily with phasing out to other planes of existence and way of the spectral. Then we have this “little” secret of theirs called Spectral Agony, which is more than likely to bypass the body and target the soul. Knowing mursaat ruthlessness and despise for ethics that doesn’t serve their goals, I see it being very likely they delightedly carried out mass sacrifices and torturing of souls (something they were quite fond of a couple of millennia later) to build themselves a half-demonic army capable of adapting to all kinds of environment, possibly incorruptible even, and tremendously powerful… the titans would’ve been the ultimate anti-dragon minion army. Imagine Rot Titans, Deep Sea Titans, Brand Titans, Flame Titans, Corrupted Ice Titans, Noxious Vegetation Titans… what could the Elder Dragons have done against such force? The Ancient Pact might’ve been looking another way while the mursaat slaughtered thousands of innocents, for they knew this sort of magic could potentially turn the tide. Then came the fallout between “allies,” which I like to believe is connected to the creation of the Bloodstone.
> Continuing below
The mursaat wanted to hear not of giving up their magic when they might’ve known all to well they could conquer all of Tyria once the dragons were dealt with (and they wouldn’t have needed to if they were hailed as the saviors of the world). Instead, they turned Spectral Agony and the titans against the seers, wiping out their civilization before their magic could’ve been entirely sucked into the Bloodstone. Then they fled, believing the dragons would destroy everyone and everything, and they could come back to rebuild and declare themselves the master race over all survivors. However, then something transpired within the Mists or wherever they escaped to, and the titans turned on them (having enough of the torment/slavery, etc.), forcing the mursaat to delay their return while the proto-titans were sealed away somewhere in the Mists.
And that is why they might’ve feared the Flameseeker Prophecies so much. The return of their vengeful creations.
However, it is a better question just why the primal form of the titans is a three-legged beast with an elongated skull and arms ending in crab claws…
I see it being very likely they delightedly carried out mass sacrifices and torturing of souls (something they were quite fond of a couple of millennia later) to build themselves a half-demonic army capable of adapting to all kinds of environment, possibly incorruptible even, and tremendously powerful… the titans would’ve been the ultimate anti-dragon minion army.
No, you got this all wrong. We know what the Mursaat armies look like when they create them. They are the jade armors that we see. That is the kind of armies that Mursaat construct. And they used these armies to prevent the titans from escaping. That is why they have all these strongholds on the Ring of Fire islands in Prophecies. We know that it was The Fury that twisted these souls and made the titans, and the Mursaat were trying to keep these creatures locked away.
sigh Jade soldiers could very easily be post-return. A similar technique (using enslaved souls to power the armors, cloaks, bows) but with more safety protocols and less dangerous tormenting magic applied to ensure that such a – theorized – revolt does not occur again.
Again, since you’ve missed the point: the mursaat have not been on Tyria since the last dragonrise, which means the titans have to be at least as old as that or otherwise the seers wouldn’t mention that they haven’t changed at all over the eons. If the titans were created in Dhuum’s time, it is INCREDIBLY unlikely the seers, who were/are on the edge of extinction and are likely to have only a few left, would know so much of the depravity of the titans. Furthermore, there’s no record of titans rampaging in Orr and Tyria prior when Dhuum was still around.
It’s much more believable, imo, that the Fury and Dhuum found such proto-titans, and began producing their own army based on those designs.
sigh Jade soldiers could very easily be post-return. A similar technique (using enslaved souls to power the armors, cloaks, bows) but with more safety protocols and less dangerous tormenting magic applied to ensure that such a – theorized – revolt does not occur again.
You are missing my point. The Jade Armors give us a very clear image of how the Mursaat construct things, and what they look like when they do. They use a lot of floating crystals, and work with soul batteries. Why would Titans look so radically different, if they were Mursaat constructions? We know who built the Titans, and we know what he build them from. And we know what the Mursaat built, and what they build their armies from. Those two are completely different. Their choice of materials and ways of construction are totally different. You have to work with the evidence that is there, and it does not support your hypothesis.
Furthermore, there’s no record of titans rampaging in Orr and Tyria prior when Dhuum was still around.
That is perhaps because Dhuum was still around. If you’re not locked away, you don’t need to build an army of demonic creatures to escape. It wasn’t until Dhuum was locked away, that his Lords of Anguish were imprisoned. The Fury had to break free first, before he could take over the Foundry of Failed Creations, and start building Abaddon an army. That is why you don’t see Titans any earlier.
It’s much more believable, imo, that the Fury and Dhuum found such proto-titans, and began producing their own army based on those designs.
There is zero evidence for this. No evidence for proto-titans, and no evidence that they based their creatures on something older.
(edited by Mad Queen Malafide.7512)
That is perhaps because Dhuum was still around. If you’re not locked away, you don’t need to build an army of demonic creatures to escape.
Then your whole argument falls. If they were created after Dhuum’d been locked away, there would’ve been no reason for them to be on Tyria at that point, ffectively doing enough rampaging to attract the attention fo the last few seers hiding in the most secluded reaches of the world.
There is zero evidence for this. No evidence for proto-titans, and no evidence that they based their creatures on something older.
The point that you’re still missing is the evidence. The titans have to be older than the arrival of the human gods, which would imply their origins are not directly related to Dhuum and the Fury.
Unless they spawned the titans on the original human homeworld, and then unleashed them on the world they’d soon relocate to, effectively making the then warring seers and mursaat witness the destruction the titans could cause in the middle of a dragon war… yeah, I’ll stop there. Just what are the chances?
You are missing my point. The Jade Armors give us a very clear image of how the Mursaat construct things, and what they look like when they do. They use a lot of floating crystals, and work with soul batteries. Why would Titans look so radically different, if they were Mursaat constructions? We know who built the Titans, and we know what he build them from. And we know what the Mursaat built, and what they build their armies from. Those two are completely different. Their choice of materials and ways of construction are totally different. You have to work with the evidence that is there, and it does not support your hypothesis.
Uh-huh, like the magical technology of the races hasn’t improved under 250 years, the mursaat’s magical technology couldn’t improve under a few millennia.
Both the titans and the jade soldiers have elongated skulls. The floating makes jade soldiers a lot faster (even if you fled, they could close in on you and run you down) and the crystal material provides a permanent frame for the enslaved soul – the enchanting might keep it at bay more – not as capricious as that of a titan.
And just as you’ve missed my point, you’ve missed my final question, too:
However, it is a better question just why the primal form of the titans is a three-legged beast with an elongated skull and arms ending in crab claws…
(edited by Thalador.4218)
Then your whole argument falls. If they were created after Dhuum’d been locked away, there would’ve been no reason for them to be on Tyria at that point,
You shouldn’t be making the assumption that the titans were there before Dhuum was locked away.
The point that you’re still missing is the evidence. The titans have to be older than the arrival of the human gods, which would imply their origins are not directly related to Dhuum and the Fury.
No they don’t.
Unless they spawned the titans on the original human homeworld, and then unleashed them on the world they’d soon relocate to, effectively making the then warring seers and mursaat witness the destruction the titans could cause in the middle of a dragon war… yeah, I’ll stop there. Just what are the chances?
You’re excluding the possibility that the Seers may have had contact with the concept of Titans on other worlds.
Uh-huh, like the magical technology of the races hasn’t improved under 250 years, the mursaat’s magical technology couldn’t improve under a few millennia.
I’m saying there’s no reason to see the Titans as Mursaat weapons, when the Mursaat are making such a desperate effort to keep them locked away, and the Titans don’t resemble Mursaat weaponry in any way.
However, it is a better question just why the primal form of the titans is a three-legged beast with an elongated skull and arms ending in crab claws…
Titans:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/2/2f/Burning_Titan.jpg
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Wild_Growth.jpg
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Earth_Born_Titan.jpg
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Fist_of_the_Titans.jpg
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Dark_Titan.jpg
Titans appear in all shapes and forms, often having three legs, but sometimes two or four. Some have elongated heads, some don’t. Some split up into multiple creatures, some don’t. Basically I think they are just multiple twisted souls, given form from what ever material was available. And that would also explain why some of them split up, they’re made of multiple twisted souls. They are filled with pain, hatred and malice. They are the emotions of tormented souls twisted into a monstrous shape.
Jade Armors and Mursaat:
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Jade_armor.jpg
http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/1/11/Jade_cloak.jpg
http://wiki.guildwars.com/images/0/0f/Mursaat_caster.jpg
Honestly, I don’t see anything in common here. The Jade Armor have more in common with the Mursaat themselves. But the Titans? They don’t look anything like the Mursaat or their armies.
(edited by Mad Queen Malafide.7512)
Your 1st point: pardon? You’re going back and forth now, claiming that they’re Dhuum’s creations, then saying they were created after he’d been defeated, then contradicting the seer’s line about the age of the titans. I think you’re just as confused as I am in regards to what you’re trying to tell.
2nd: Really, now? That’s a wonderful argument. I’d find it fun to see this become a “no u!” debate, but it’s better off if we just leave each other’s opinions alone.
3rd: Er… I wish to see this to its end. Over the eons, much has changed in Tyria. But not these Titans. (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ancient_Seer) They’ve “contacted their concept of titans” here, on Tyria.
4th: Are you even listening?
And that is why they might’ve feared the Flameseeker Prophecies so much. The return of their vengeful creations.
… the return of their vengeful creations hell-bent on punishing their former masters for the torment they caused.
5th: I know how titans and jade armors look, thank you very much. I was talking about their primal shape, the one they assume before we hack that away, making it turn into a lesser form with each defeat. The only titan that spoke, Ignis Cruor, – aside from their weird Latinesque demon language they utter during Hell’s Precipice – speaks in first person. It is a single being, and the titan duo that spawns last is just probably the final remnants of the titan’s shell where it desperately tries to outnumber its assailants.
Six eyes and a long skull. I’d say they look just as different from the mursaat as the mursaat are different from the titans.
Your 1st point: pardon? You’re going back and forth now, claiming that they’re Dhuum’s creations, then saying they were created after he’d been defeated,
No, I’m saying first Dhuum was defeated and replaced by Grenth. Then much later, The Fury breaks free, and starts creating Titans in the Foundry of Failed Creations as part of a bigger plan to assist Abaddon’s revolt.
then contradicting the seer’s line about the age of the titans. I think you’re just as confused as I am in regards to what you’re trying to tell.
I’m not confused at all, nor am I contradicting what the Seer said. I’m just saying that your interpretation of the Titans literally walking on Tyria is a rushed assumption, based on a quote that can be taken many ways.
3rd: Er… I wish to see this to its end. Over the eons, much has changed in Tyria. But not these Titans. (http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Ancient_Seer) They’ve “contacted their concept of titans” here, on Tyria.
He could also be saying: Tyria has changed a lot. The Titans have not changed a lot. That doesn’t mean the Titans were walking around on Tyria. It just means they have not changed much over the years, unlike Tyria itself.
And that is why they might’ve feared the Flameseeker Prophecies so much. The return of their vengeful creations.
… the return of their vengeful creations hell-bent on punishing their former masters for the torment they caused.
Where are you pulling these quotes from?
5th: I know how titans and jade armors look, thank you very much. I was talking about their primal shape, the one they assume before we hack that away, making it turn into a lesser form with each defeat. The only titan that spoke, Ignis Cruor, – aside from their weird Latinesque demon language they utter during Hell’s Precipice – speaks in first person. It is a single being, and the titan duo that spawns last is just probably the final remnants of the titan’s shell where it desperately tries to outnumber its assailants.
It’s quite possible that when Titans are made, multiple twisted souls are constructed into one being. That does not eliminate this hypothesis.
Six eyes and a long skull. I’d say they look just as different from the mursaat as the mursaat are different from the titans.
I’d say they mostly resemble Abaddon.
- And? It’s still The Fury and not Abaddon who was making Titans.
- No, but as I said it is ashen. And actually there are parts of it that are a bit volcanic – go to the northeast corner of the Eastern Frontier, which isn’t too far from where the Armageddon Lords appear.
- I know what you meant but that remains unchanging the notion that nothing even implies that the Titans predate the gods in existence – let alone are tied in any way shape or form to the Elder Dragons, especially given how there isn’t a single Elder Dragon minion that even remotely resembles titans in either form or function. The line from the seer only makes mention that they are eons old – eons merely means “really old” unless used in the astrology tense (which I doubt it would be) which would be billions of years old (which not even the seers would be).
- Then comment on something you did write: “Taking these cauldrons and magic from the dragons into his realm, he made the Foundry of Failed Creations, where he started doing what Inquest is doing now – experimenting with the dragon energy.”
Something made Titans before the gods arrived in Tyria, and later this method was used to create an army for Abaddon. The Titans had access to magic with strong connections to the elder dragons, specifically Kralkatorrik.
Something made Titans before the gods arrived in Tyria,
No that would be too much of an assumption. You can say that titans had existed before they were created by The Fury. But not that something made them. For all we know, they could have made themselves.
The Titans had access to magic with strong connections to the elder dragons, specifically Kralkatorrik.
For what reason do you draw this conclusion?
You are missing my point. The Jade Armors give us a very clear image of how the Mursaat construct things, and what they look like when they do.
While I find Thalador’s theory interesting, I’m not sure I concur with it. However, on this point you’re wrong Malafide.
Between Thalador’s theorized creation of the titans and the point in time we see the mursaat using the Jade constructs, between 3,000 or 11,000 years have passed. Techniques, aesthetics, philosophies all change for many cultures in these points in time. Though we know that the mursaat’s morals of “all mursaat before anything else” hasn’t really changed, that doesn’t mean other things haven’t either.
And in regards to aesthetics…
Both jade armors (which you must admit look a little too much like Abaddon) and titans have multiple rows of eyes, are supposedly (in the case of jade armor) made from spirits, and other material. The jade constructs are likely made from a similar – if not same – material as the bloodstone given the similar appearance to the stones in the RoF fortresses to the bloodstone.
We know who built the Titans, and we know what he build them from. And we know what the Mursaat built, and what they build their armies from.
More corrections:
We know the Fury was making titans during the time of Nightfall, but we do not know the Titans’ origins (their original origins). Similarly, we do NOT know what the mursaat built their stuff out of.
That is perhaps because Dhuum was still around. If you’re not locked away, you don’t need to build an army of demonic creatures to escape. It wasn’t until Dhuum was locked away, that his Lords of Anguish were imprisoned. The Fury had to break free first, before he could take over the Foundry of Failed Creations, and start building Abaddon an army. That is why you don’t see Titans any earlier.
Your argument fails to explain how the titans are as old as the Forgotten, which definitely predate Dhuum’s imprisonment, let alone old enough for the seer to say it saw the titans eons ago.
Then your whole argument falls. If they were created after Dhuum’d been locked away, there would’ve been no reason for them to be on Tyria at that point,
You shouldn’t be making the assumption that the titans were there before Dhuum was locked away.
The point that you’re still missing is the evidence. The titans have to be older than the arrival of the human gods, which would imply their origins are not directly related to Dhuum and the Fury.
No they don’t.
…
You really should read the entirety of the thread, Malafide.
No, I’m saying first Dhuum was defeated and replaced by Grenth. Then much later, The Fury breaks free, and starts creating Titans in the Foundry of Failed Creations as part of a bigger plan to assist Abaddon’s revolt.
But we know for a fact they’re much much older than that.
He could also be saying: Tyria has changed a lot. The Titans have not changed a lot. That doesn’t mean the Titans were walking around on Tyria. It just means they have not changed much over the years, unlike Tyria itself.
That makes no conceptual sense in wording. That’s like me saying “much has changed in my house. But the sun, the sun has never changed.” You’re just jumping from point A to point Z, there’s no connection between the two sentences’ meanings if what you say is the case.
I’d say they mostly resemble Abaddon.
So do the jade constructs. Moreso, even.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
- The point? It could have been under Abaddon’s guidance that The Fury performed the rituals. Afterall, there are no traces of Titans in Underworld.
- It still is close to the environment, but not made from the environment.
- “Titans, ancient creatures dating back nearly as far as my own kind…” -Forgotten Warden
“I wish to see this to its end. Over the eons, much has changed in Tyria. But not these Titans.” -Ancient Seer
The forgotten were present in the dragon rise after which the gods settled to Arah. Unless the gods were very good at hiding from the dragons, the Titans were on Tyria before them.- I wrote that, yes, but would you have preferred “made what would later be known as the Foundry of Failed Creations”?
Something made Titans before the gods arrived in Tyria, and later this method was used to create an army for Abaddon. The Titans had access to magic with strong connections to the elder dragons, specifically Kralkatorrik.
Nothing tells us that “something made the Titans before the gods arrived in Tyria,” – as said, the Forgotten’s origins still lie in the Mists to all of our knowledge. And so do the Six Gods’ – we cannot say which is older between the two groups (Gods or Titans/Forgotten), we can only say which arrived on the world of Tyria first – the Six Gods or Forgotten (though even that is subject to debate). The seers could have easily first saw the titans well after the Elder Dragons went to sleep and the Six Gods arrived on the world.
Just because the Titans had access to the Cauldron of Cataclysm, does not mean that they had access to Kralkatorrik’s magic. After all, it is 1) not proven (even though I think it is) that it was powered by Kralkatorrik’s magic; and 2) not proven that it was powered by said magic when the Titans gave it to the charr.
Something made Titans before the gods arrived in Tyria,
No that would be too much of an assumption. You can say that titans had existed before they were created by The Fury. But not that something made them. For all we know, they could have made themselves.
They are artificial beings, never seen formed naturally. Even if they performed the ritual themselves, something created them the ritual in the first place. And based on the dialogue of the Forgotten Warden and the Ancient Seer, that was before the gods arrived in Tyria.
The Titans had access to magic with strong connections to the elder dragons, specifically Kralkatorrik.
For what reason do you draw this conclusion?
This has been covered in this thread enough already. The Titans gave the searing cauldrons to the Flame Legion, so they must have had access to them.
- The point? It could have been under Abaddon’s guidance that The Fury performed the rituals. Afterall, there are no traces of Titans in Underworld.
- It still is close to the environment, but not made from the environment.
- “Titans, ancient creatures dating back nearly as far as my own kind…” -Forgotten Warden
“I wish to see this to its end. Over the eons, much has changed in Tyria. But not these Titans.” -Ancient Seer
The forgotten were present in the dragon rise after which the gods settled to Arah. Unless the gods were very good at hiding from the dragons, the Titans were on Tyria before them.- I wrote that, yes, but would you have preferred “made what would later be known as the Foundry of Failed Creations”?
Something made Titans before the gods arrived in Tyria, and later this method was used to create an army for Abaddon. The Titans had access to magic with strong connections to the elder dragons, specifically Kralkatorrik.
- My point is that NOTHING points to the Titans being creations of Abaddon. The fact that they’re eons old, as old as the forgotten, means that they predate Abaddon’s fall. Abaddon before his fall is described as a just and noble god. A noble god would not go about tormenting souls to make sick creations. But Dhuum? Dhuum would.
- If you want to get technical, all titans made their bodies in the Ring of Fire after passing through the Door of Komalie. This means that either they removed their body to make new ones, or their body changed to the environment. One could just say “ArenaNet’s laziness on assets” or it could be that the environments between Ascalon (burned down, barren, sky full of ash, tar lakes, and lava coming through some cracks in select locations) and the Ring of Fire (ash-full air, burned down, barren, lava “lakes”) were close enough that the Titans didn’t need to change their bodies for xyz reason. Still, this is not the same as the Elder Dragons which cannot – not even Subject Alpha – change their body’s element.
- However, there is still nothing to dismiss the claim that Forgotten were brought by the Six Gods (or rather, sent ahead of all six). Why could it not be possible that both Forgotten and Titans were sent by the gods (or in the later case, by Dhuum)? An alternate explanation would be that the seers saw the titans after the gods arrived and that, in the Mists, the Forgotten and Titans were created around the same time.
- Actually, yes, because clearly your original wording caused confusion.
Nothing tells us that “something made the Titans before the gods arrived in Tyria,” – as said, the Forgotten’s origins still lie in the Mists to all of our knowledge. And so do the Six Gods’ – we cannot say which is older between the two groups (Gods or Titans/Forgotten), we can only say which arrived on the world of Tyria first – the Six Gods or Forgotten (though even that is subject to debate). The seers could have easily first saw the titans well after the Elder Dragons went to sleep and the Six Gods arrived on the world.
Just because the Titans had access to the Cauldron of Cataclysm, does not mean that they had access to Kralkatorrik’s magic. After all, it is 1) not proven (even though I think it is) that it was powered by Kralkatorrik’s magic; and 2) not proven that it was powered by said magic when the Titans gave it to the charr.
Humans say the forgotten were placed on Tyria in 1769 be, but as they were present in the latest dragon rise, that seems rather impossible. They were there prior to the gods, and they say Titans are nearly as old. I find that quite clear.
“Titans had access to artifacts capable of harnessing dragon energies”, that better? The connection remains.
That all depends on when the last dragon rise was – and what is being referred to with “Tyria” there – continent or world?
The connection is tenuous at best, no better than my “Dream of Dreams is part of the Mists” theory that you argued so well against.
I stand corrected on several points, thanks Konig.
They are artificial beings, never seen formed naturally. Even if they performed the ritual themselves, something created them the ritual in the first place. And based on the dialogue of the Forgotten Warden and the Ancient Seer, that was before the gods arrived in Tyria.
Maybe Konig or GMRLeon can answer this, since I seem to remember there were some extensive articles regarding the mists and titans in the old lore community. Could titans emerge by themselves? We know that the Mists can sometimes form creatures, like Razah. It is possible that the first Titans simply emerged by themselves?
Not affiliated with ArenaNet or NCSOFT. No support is provided.
All assets, page layout, visual style belong to ArenaNet and are used solely to replicate the original design and preserve the original look and feel.
Contact /u/e-scrape-artist on reddit if you encounter a bug.
