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The history of Dhuum
They kind of flesh him out a little more in this game and in the previous. It wasn’t that Dhuum kept the dead, dead, or that he didn’t allow animation of corpses, it is that he was unjust and unfair in dealing with the dead. He made the dead into his personal servants, almost a personal army. And if anyone escaped death, even having a near death experience may have counted, he would hunt them down and kill them. Grenth may have had other reasons behind his actions, but the biggest factor seemed to be the fact that one of Grenth’s biggest personality traits was judgement, and he deemed that Dhuum wasn’t providing a fair afterlife to those who died.
Well I appreciate the response the wiki doesn’t really say any of this from what I’m seeing and I guess it’s still debateble (imo) as to if Grenth is just or not.
“During his reign, Dhuum ruled from his tower in the Underworld as the God of Death, but was viewed as an unjust God who did not tolerate resurrection or the undead.”
That’s what the wiki says regarding Dhuum.
Add more sound effects to The Minstrel plz.
While you may be right that the reasons for Dhuum being considered a bad god of death while Grenth is a good one (other than history being written by the victors!) are not laid out clearly, I think that the way Grenth is portrayed can give us some hints.
“To Orrians, Grenth was the god of death and judgment, and the patron of strict ethics.” He has been referred to as a god of justice (sorry, I can’t recall a source but I’m pretty sure?). If Grenth is a god of justice and fair judgement, it seems reasonable to assume that Dhuum’s judgements were less just?
Besides which, the gods didn’t just decide to get rid of Dhuum (they may have been keen to, but I don’t know) – Grenth defeated and imprisoned him. That seems to be a fair conquest with these gods, and very much in the course of things. Also, don’t forget that we now know that Grenth was the son of a goddess and a mortal. If he grew up among mortals before ascending to godhood, his ideas about what was a ‘fair’ way to manage death might have been different to other gods.
We don’t know if he just wanted to impress mama, or if he just wanted to become a full god, but he may have had ethical objections to how Dhuum treated mortals.
You’re missing something major, WonderfulCT.
Dhuum was a cruel and unjust god. He didn’t treat the spirits of the dead fairly, and those who managed to avoid a fatal circumstance Dhuum hunted down (think of the GW1 banning – that was probably a more frequent appearance when he was god). This meant that if a monk came along and healed a man who lost half an arm and a lot of blood, well, too bad man-who-was-just-healed. Dhuum’s gonna get you!
Doesn’t really sound “as it should be” – as you put it.
Regarding resurrection – it’s good because sometimes people die by accident, without will or want of their own. This gives them a second chance. Furthermore, bad guys get resurrected too (Shiro Tagachi for one – Gaheron attempted to be another major antagonist coming from the dead). So basically, it’s a double-edged sword. Also, it was always a part of lore, ever since Prophecies (killing atop a bloodstone with soul batteries attached would prevent “any kind of magic from bringing them back”). The qualifications for resurrection is just unknown to us.
He made the dead into his personal servants, almost a personal army.
Source please.
Well I appreciate the response the wiki doesn’t really say any of this from what I’m seeing and I guess it’s still debateble (imo) as to if Grenth is just or not.
“During his reign, Dhuum ruled from his tower in the Underworld as the God of Death, but was viewed as an unjust God who did not tolerate resurrection or the undead.”
That’s what the wiki says regarding Dhuum.
Yeah, I just looked. It seems that Santax went and rewrote it, putting in some minor-but-likely speculation and removing important facts (while also adding some GW2 facts). I went and fixed that.
@Curuniel: Grenth is called representing judgment by the Orrian History Scrolls I don’t think he’s ever related to justice – Kormir is though. Grenth is, though, as you said a fair judge.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
I think Nacremus is referring to the malevolent, tormented souls aka the titans. Although it hasn’t been confirmed whether Dhuum was the original creator of the titans, it was his servants – the terrorweb dryders and the Fury – that were torturing souls into insanity in order to spawn more titans in Guild Wars 1. Therefore, it is not far-fetched at all to assume that Dhuum’s injustice as the then ruling god of death also consisted of tormenting souls in order to create his army of titans.
Scarlet’s Alliance Wars (a.k.a. “Guild Wars 2”)
A fantasy of sci-fi cyborg implants grafted into the desiccated flesh of Guild Wars’ corpse.
A fantasy of sci-fi cyborg implants grafted into the desiccated flesh of Guild Wars’ corpse.
Terrorwebs were sending souls to the Realm of Torment from the Underworld (and keeping evil spirits there with the more benevolent ones), just as the torturewebs were taking souls from the River of Souls, but weren’t part of titan making themselves as far as we know.
But this is all still post-fall Dhuum activity. Though true it’s not unlikely that he made titans before hand – we know something was, given how the seers dealt with them “eons ago” and they’re said to be nearly as old as the forgotten (which predate Dhuum’s fall by well over a thousand years).
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
This is just odd: firstly why was respawning made into canon, and why is the raising of the dead viewed as a good thing?
Why is raising the dead a bad thing? Obviously the necromancers are happy about being able to create undead minions, and in GW1 there were shrines were you could be brought back to life by a helpful priest.
Rurik, unfortunately, died alone and surrounded in the Shiverpeaks – there was no one to revive him or recover his body. Based on how Rytlock has Rurik’s sword now, the charr probably were the first there after he died, and they would be more likely to eat his corpse than resurrect him.
“A man who trusts everyone is a fool.
And a man who trusts no one is a fool.
We are all fools, if we live long enough.”
And a man who trusts no one is a fool.
We are all fools, if we live long enough.”
^Didn’t Rurik have his sword on the Ring Of Fire island chain?
^Didn’t Rurik have his sword on the Ring Of Fire island chain?
Yes he did he was resurrected by the Undead Lich but he had also decomposed abit too
It remains a mystery how Rytlok came to hold the sword.
This isn’t really as relevent since my questions regarding Dhuum were essentrially answered but…
…On the last mission in Prophecies have a necro with minions (I know its raising of the dead) and then beat Rurik when you find him (not putting this as a spoiler cause the game is really old now), the minions will continously hit him why hes lying on the floor in the cutscene. Thats my payback to Grenth for allowing that to slide.
Add more sound effects to The Minstrel plz.
Necro minions isn’t the raising of the dead. It is the making of puppets out of flesh. Not really any different than the way that elementalists can create elementals to fight for them in GW2. There is no soul attached to the minions, they merely work based on the will of their master.
The raising of the dead comes from resurrection and revival in GW1. Mostly happening through monks or shrines.
That being said, Grenth seems to have little to no control over keeping the spirits of the dead in the Underworld. I mean there are many spirits wandering Tyria, and in three instances minions are created with souls attached (whether the soul is ripped from the Underworld or simply tied to the body before the spirit leaves is unknown). The instances are the Lich Lord’s use of Rurik, Joko’s undead army (many of which still hold memories of their previous life), and Zhaitan’s army.
@ Konig: It’s one of those things that I read or heard somewhere (in the game I believe), but it has been years since I took it for fact so I do not know where the reference is. I would say it has probably been 2-3 years since I would have read it.
Necro minions isn’t the raising of the dead. It is the making of puppets out of flesh. Not really any different than the way that elementalists can create elementals to fight for them in GW2. There is no soul attached to the minions, they merely work based on the will of their master.
I’m assuming that you’re referring to me here so let me just say I was not speaking figuratively. The dead literally rise whether a soul is attached or not is not what I was referring to.
Add more sound effects to The Minstrel plz.
I was just clarifying, because of the fact that some people read “the dead rising” as different things. I do get what you are saying though now, but the point of my post is I do not believe that Grenth (and it may be the case with Dhuum as well) has the ability to control spirits being taken from the Underworld. I would say that the biggest differentiation between the two of them is that Grenth lets it slide in most cases, whereas Dhuum would be scouring the world to send the soul back where he felt it belong, whatever the case.
What’s interesting is that the wiki says that Grenth is a god of vengeance. Perhaps he allows resurrections to give you a chance at revenge?
Grenth is really a classical model of Hades, in that he takes his job very seriously and is just. He comes off as cold but he is not cruel. Maybe he will allow resurrections for favored heroes. It’s not outside of the realm of possibility that he’ll allow the resurrection of the player character because he believes that character will bring balance back to the world (destroy evil). That was basically the reason the envoys in Factions were allowed to revive us, to kill Shiro Tagachi because he wasn’t doing his duties as an envoy.
In game there’s not really a million+ heroes running around. It’s just you and maybe your guild, but it’s not like Grenth favors a million people and keeps reviving them.
As for the fight with Dhuum, although we’re not given alot to go on, it sounds alot like Grenth got fed up with Dhuum’s bs and stormed his tower with the help of his reapers. He plays out like a true Greek Demi-god myth.