Guild Wars 2

Maybe… Six human gods are Elder Dragons themselfs. What do you think?
Elder Dragons: Primordus, Deep sea dragon, Jormag, Zhaitan, Kralkatorrik, Mordremoth

Option 1.
When dragons went to sleep. The gods appear. Which means Elder Dragons where on Gods form. Checking on a world they created and observed from far. (Creating world made them use a lot of power to regain power again they went to sleep. ) Mordermoth created Sylvaries. Right? Maybe a human ancestor saw Dragons as human gods at first. So our human ancestor made human looking like god statues/avatars. Also Dragons used their power to become a god avatar for those who looking for guidance.

In battle where five Gods fight against Abaddon… Bloodstone was created by the Seer. “Abaddon used the Bloodstone to gift magic to all the races of Tyria” Because Bloodstone magic was abused it got corrupted. When Exodus of the Gods happens the elder dragon went to deep sleep again. So that’s why when Elder Dragons awaked, they became corrupted and their minions are hostiles (with Preservation, Aggression, Denial, and Destruction). Also Abaddon – " he was eventually struck down at the Mouth of Torment, in a blow that turned the Crystal Sea into a desert. "

Kralkatorrik can be found sleeping in Guild Wars between the three zones of the Charr Homelands. What was Kralkatorrik doing in Crystal Dessert? And when you had to walk the path of Facet why…. theres illusions of dragons?

What Glinth had to do with gods ?
" She was said to have been the first creature on Tyria, sent here by the Gods over 3,000 years ago to act as the world’s guardian during its shaping, and was later given servants—the Forgotten—to aid her in this task. "

Why Divinity’s Reach city map looks like Inscriptions on Bloodstone Caves’ door ?
It have to do with Bloodstones under the city ? same as Ebonhawk…

Option 2.
Gods were first humans that got magic power from Elder Dragons.

Hmmmm. The Elder Dragons=Gods of Tyria?
Sooo I could say: Sylvari=Charr…

The Elder Dragons need magic to be active, if have not source of magic, the Dragons go to sleep.
When Mordremoth awoke, he felt magic, pure magic calls Ley Line.
The Gods are (I think) in the Mists, but everyone should know that They disappeared from Tyria and Gods don’t sleep under Tyria…….

Dragons are the different part of Tyria.
Gods are Gods, Dragons are Dragons etc etc etc.

Gods disappeared from Tyria, because they gave magic and it was everything they could give us.
We use magic-the gift from Gods- against Dragons.

This theory has been floating around, with minor variations, for so long that ArenaNet literally put it into the game with the observation that the evidence doesn’t hold up to scrutiny

So we can say Primordus or Balthazar as we want.
So we can say that Kas prayed above Jory to DSD, because Dwayna=Bubbles..
When we talked with Avatar of Grenth in the Personal Story (Cathedral of Silence)
we talked to Zhaitan…
When Kormir became Goddess she turned into Dragon and she sleeps under Tyria…

To give a somewhat more detailed answer:

The Elder Dragons are native to Tyria. They have always been here. The gods, on the other hand, are specifically noted as having arrived in relatively recent history… bringing humans with them.

Every time people have tried to draw a 1:1 correspondence between the gods and dragons, it doesn’t work. Balthazar and Primordus, okay, they have fire in common and we can’t disprove that they have War in common, and Zhaitan and Grenth. Melandru and Mordremoth seems obvious, but Mordremoth’s other aspect is Mind, and among the gods that seems to be either Lyssa or Kormir. Once you start lining up the others, sooner or later you’re trying to squeeze them into an obvious mismatch.

What’s most likely, given that we know the gods came from elsewhere, is that the gods were the equivalent of the Elder Dragons on whatever world they called home. The Elder Dragons are bound to spheres of magic in Tyria. The gods seem to be similarly bound, but they are alien to Tyria, and their magic is the magic of the place that they came from, not that of Tyria.

In some cases, the magic lines up nicely. In others, it doesn’t.

And then you have other Gods, without a correspondece to Elder Dragons. Menzies, Dhuum…?

OK, maybe Dhuum was not part of the original pantheon, but Menzies was Balthazar’s half-brother.

Because of Bloodstone they used to defeat Adbandon (Excodus). Gods (dragons) became twisted, corrupted infused mind with abandon and when they wake up their magic is not same as before. That’s why Mordremoth magic doesn’t match with Melundra.

There are Dragons name not yet to be known…and also theres those Champion Dragons like Glinth. Dhuum ,Menzies. Dragons do also have brothers & sisters.. Glint had many eggs! and baby glinth Gleam.

Glint. " She was said to have been the first creature on Tyria, sent here by the Gods over 3,000 years ago to act as the world’s guardian during its shaping". So Glinth was the first Dragon on the Tyria? But She is servent of Kalkraroit Elder Dragon.
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Glint . Wiki said she went to The Artesian Waters where first god step to Purified herself from Elder Dragon curroptions.

If gods are alien of Tyria. That explain Seer and her spaceship in gw1 map. (If you ever played gw1. Theres spaceship crashed in the cave in Mineral Spring /Southern Shiverpeaks.)

pikkunana.7495:

If gods are alien of Tyria. That explain Seer and her spaceship in gw1 map. (If you ever played gw1. Theres spaceship crashed in the cave in Mineral Spring /Southern Shiverpeaks.)

Ah… no. There’s not. There is an overturned brazier, that the dwarves have in a few places, frozen into the ground. Is that what you’re remembering?

Aaron Ansari.1604:

pikkunana.7495:

If gods are alien of Tyria. That explain Seer and her spaceship in gw1 map. (If you ever played gw1. Theres spaceship crashed in the cave in Mineral Spring /Southern Shiverpeaks.)

Ah… no. There’s not. There is an overturned brazier, that the dwarves have in a few places, frozen into the ground. Is that what you’re remembering?

Nooo what happen to spaceship ( T_T)~~
whas it other place

That’s a brazier. That’s not a Seer, that’s a Lyssa statue.

pikkunana.7495

Wiki said she went to The Artesian Waters where first god step to Purified herself from Elder Dragon curroptions.

The Artesian Waters is where the First God in Tyria set foot, which was Dwayna. She did not come to be purified of anything. That’s where she happened to “land” in Tyria; and it was probably because the Artesian Waters follow the Ley Lines, and thus, the Bloodstone magic, and thus, why the Six first felt drawn from the Mist (Where apparently they were wandering with the Humans)

Rhaegar.1203:

That’s a brazier. That’s not a Seer, that’s a Lyssa statue.

pikkunana.7495

Wiki said she went to The Artesian Waters where first god step to Purified herself from Elder Dragon curroptions.

The Artesian Waters is where the First God in Tyria set foot, which was Dwayna. She did not come to be purified of anything. That’s where she happened to “land” in Tyria; and it was probably because the Artesian Waters follow the Ley Lines, and thus, the Bloodstone magic, and thus, why the Six first felt drawn from the Mist (Where apparently they were wandering with the Humans)

I meant Glint dragon went to Artesian Waters to purefied herself from Elder Dragon… http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forgotten
it was accidentally to that spot ? So Ley Lines have connections to everything…

pikkunana.7495:

Maybe… Six human gods are Elder Dragons themselfs. What do you think?

As Drax said, this theory has been around so long with so many iterations Anet basically put the outcome of every single one in the game:

The evidence is inconclusive.

But to cater to the OP…

Arden.7480:

The Gods are (I think) in the Mists, but everyone should know that They disappeared from Tyria and Gods don’t sleep under Tyria…….

Priestess Rhie says that the gods are somewhere not in Tyria nor the Mists.

Arden.7480:

Gods disappeared from Tyria, because they gave magic and it was everything they could give us.
We use magic-the gift from Gods- against Dragons.

They left more because of the damage they dealt when they fought one of their own kind (Abaddon) – turning a bountiful sea and verdant coastline into a desert and a deadly wasteland respectively.

The magic might have been released from the Bloodstone by the gods but they did not make it, it’s a natural part of Tyria.

draxynnic.3719:

What’s most likely, given that we know the gods came from elsewhere, is that the gods were the equivalent of the Elder Dragons on whatever world they called home. The Elder Dragons are bound to spheres of magic in Tyria. The gods seem to be similarly bound, but they are alien to Tyria, and their magic is the magic of the place that they came from, not that of Tyria.

This.

Just this.

Rhaegar.1203:

And then you have other Gods, without a correspondece to Elder Dragons. Menzies, Dhuum…?

OK, maybe Dhuum was not part of the original pantheon, but Menzies was Balthazar’s half-brother.

Menzies is never said to be a god. Dhuum is a fallen god, he had the same place as Grenth. Same situation as Abaddon and Kormir and Abaddon’s unnamed predecessor.

pikkunana.7495:

Nooo what happen to spaceship ( T_T)~~
whas it other place

Shiverpeak guild hall is the other place. Frost Gate (the four beacons we lit) is another.

They’re dwarven, through and through. There are two brazier designs that they use, and that’s one of them.

The only oddity is that it has pulsating magic instead of flame. And why they have structures at a temple to Lyssa (what that place is called).

“The magic might have been released from the Bloodstone by the gods but they did not make it, it’s a natural part of Tyria”

~GW1 wiki says:
“The bloodstones are five shards of a massive stone created by the Gods of Tyria and sealed with the blood of King Doric.”

So Gods created magic. This is the fact of Tyria’ History.

Arden.7480:

“The magic might have been released from the Bloodstone by the gods but they did not make it, it’s a natural part of Tyria”

~GW1 wiki says:
“The bloodstones are five shards of a massive stone created by the Gods of Tyria and sealed with the blood of King Doric.”

So Gods created magic. This is the fact of Tyria’ History.

It was a supposed fact in human Tyrian History. A fact that we later found out was false in Arah’s exp mode.

Much of GW1 Lore changed when we learned about the existence of the Elder Dragons. That was when a multitude of what had been truths in the original game became false beliefs and the Elder Dragons forced people to search more into the ancient history of the world. The Human Gods did not create Tyria, but they likely cleansed it of Dragon corruption (one theory of what Balthazar was burning off of the Peninsula) and rejuvenated it (likely largely the work of Melandru). They also did not create Tyrian magic or the Bloodstone. There is cold hard evidence to prove that the Seers did that earlier.

Arden.7480:

“The magic might have been released from the Bloodstone by the gods but they did not make it, it’s a natural part of Tyria”

~GW1 wiki says:
“The bloodstones are five shards of a massive stone created by the Gods of Tyria and sealed with the blood of King Doric.”

So Gods created magic. This is the fact of Tyria’ History.

GW1 lore is full of sometimes-altered human-perspective records of history which are not always accurate. This is one such case. In truth, GW2 is also full of perspectives and subjective truths, making objective truths hard to come by some of the time.

In GW2, it has been revealed and confirmed that the Seers created the Bloodstone. They did so by taking in the natural magic of the world that had not yet been corrupted and putting it into “safekeeping” within the Bloodstone.

The Six released some of that magic and split the stones, but did not create either.

pikkunana.7495:

I meant Glint dragon went to Artesian Waters to purefied herself from Elder Dragon… http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Forgotten
it was accidentally to that spot ? So Ley Lines have connections to everything…

Glint was NOT purified at the Artesian Waters; she underwent a Forgotten ritual at The Altar of Glaust

Konig:

Menzies is never said to be a god. Dhuum is a fallen god, he had the same place as Grenth. Same situation as Abaddon and Kormir and Abaddon’s unnamed predecessor.

While Menzies is not directly regarded as a “God”, he is referred by the GW1 Wiki as a “Deity”; coupled with the facts that he is Balth’s half-brother, has armies, priests, and made an alliance with two other Gods, heavily weigh on his godhood.

Menzies is trying to become a god by usurping Balthazar’s power. He is certainly a powerful, ‘divine’ entity, but as we have seen with Kormir, that is no requirement for ascending to godhood. As far as we know, being an actual god requires you to be one of the Six.

That might not stop people from calling him an evil god, etc., which is propably why he is simply listed as a deity on the wiki. You need to keep in mind that most stuff on the wiki is written by players, and eventhough it is required to give accurate information, people tend to come up with individual terms here and there.

I know the wiki is for players, by players. Don’t worry.

Where do you get this “trying to ascend to godhood”? The reason for the war he’s waging on his half-brother has never been stated.

For years we thought about the gods as The Five. It was only when Nightfall was released that we counted one more among them. Who’s to say there aren’t more (many more) that just have not revealed themselves?

Abaddon used Bloodstone to give us- Races- magic.
And he gave us too much magic and the war began.

Seers created Bloodstone, ok. But who exactly Seers are?
Magical creatures of course, but something else?

I played p4 Arah and we have to kill corrupted Gods or something and the last boss is the Bloodstone.
I cannot understand why the Bloodstone is “evil” and why we have to “kill” it.

Rhaegar.1203:

Konig:

Menzies is never said to be a god. Dhuum is a fallen god, he had the same place as Grenth. Same situation as Abaddon and Kormir and Abaddon’s unnamed predecessor.

While Menzies is not directly regarded as a “God”, he is referred by the GW1 Wiki as a “Deity”; coupled with the facts that he is Balth’s half-brother, has armies, priests, and made an alliance with two other Gods, heavily weigh on his godhood.

That deity reference on the wiki is done for navigational and categorization purposes only. There’s no actual lore stating he is a god, demigod, or what have you. And he’s not listed because he’s worshiped or followed, etc. but because he has an alliance with Dhuum and Abaddon, and is Balthazar’s half-brother – in other words, while he himself has no mention of divinity, he is just as important to lore as those who do. Kind of like Malchor.

Having armies is irrelevant – don’t need to be a god to have an army of spirits (see Oracle of the Mists, Shiro Tagachi, Khilbron, and probably some I’m missing). While the Priest of Menzies follows menzies, nothing says it worships Menzies.

The only relation to godhood he has is his attempt to usurp Balthazar.

Agroman.7190:

Menzies is trying to become a god by usurping Balthazar’s power. He is certainly a powerful, ‘divine’ entity, but as we have seen with Kormir, that is no requirement for ascending to godhood. As far as we know, being an actual god requires you to be one of the Six.

Nothing puts him as divine.

And there are gods that exist outside of the Six, if other races are to be believed.

Rhaegar.1203:

Where do you get this “trying to ascend to godhood”? The reason for the war he’s waging on his half-brother has never been stated.

I believe that’s presented as the entire purpose behind assaulting the Fissure of Woe.

Rhaegar.1203:

For years we thought about the gods as The Five. It was only when Nightfall was released that we counted one more among them. Who’s to say there aren’t more (many more) that just have not revealed themselves?

If there were ever more than six at a single time, then this supposed seventh was removed before humanity ever stepped foot on the world of Tyria, because the oldest non-revoked knowledge only tells us six.

And that knowledge does include Menzies.

Arden.7480:

Seers created Bloodstone, ok. But who exactly Seers are?
Magical creatures of course, but something else?

An ancient race of spellcasters, much like the mursaat. We meet the last known Seer in GW1.

Arden.7480:

I played p4 Arah and we have to kill corrupted Gods or something and the last boss is the Bloodstone.
I cannot understand why the Bloodstone is “evil” and why we have to “kill” it.

You kill the last High Priests of the five gods from before the Cataclysm, which have a bloodstone shard each, their corruption corrupting the shard in turn.

It’s been a long time since I played through Arah path (so hard to get folks to go for it), but from what I recall the magic within that larger shard went out of control, twisted by the five pieces we collected with Randall earlier (this is why Randall himself becomes immobilized and changed into a red spectre when the shard was destroyed, with his personality somewhat changed – not really similar to the bloodstone crazed folks in S3 though).

It wasn’t “evil” but was “dangerous” so we had to get rid of it.

so with ur theory is saying we just rekt grenth and melandru? ummm ok then -_-

Konig Des Todes.2086:

While the Priest of Menzies follows menzies, nothing says it worships Menzies.

I’d consider a title such as “Priest of Menzies” to mean worshiping Menzies unless there’s evidence to the contrary.

A better observation is that it’s well established that Tyria is a world where you can get access to priest-type magic without worshiping a genuine god. We’ve had priests and shamans that are empowered by worshiping mursaat, titans, and shiny rocks, while it’s canon from the guardian unveiling interviews that charr guardians are pretty much empowered by pure patriotism. The existence of beings with the title of Priest of Menzies thus says nothing about Menzies’ state of divinity.

I’d suspect that Menzies is similar to Grenth prior to casting down Dhuum: of divine ancestry and more than mortal, but less than a full god. It’s even possible that it was Grenth’s success against Dhuum that inspired Menzies to try bringing down Balthazar.

I would take the title to mean that he serves as Menzies’ priest. That he serves Menzies, but worships something else that Menzies hopes to use for his forces.

The main reason I think this is the entire quest behind him – we take “Unholy Texts” to discover what boon Menzies’ forces had gained from the Priests’ meddling and remove it, but if Menzies was the boon-giver, why would he need a priest to boon his personal army?

Why wouldn’t he? Okay, perhaps he wouldn’t need the priest. But for one to benefit from divine boons in the absence of the actual god is usually seen to require some sort of medium, be it prayer & communication with an avatar or the blessing of a priest. At least that’s how it seemingly worked with the Five/Six in GW1.

And since there are traitors even among the Eternals, I think it is safe to assume that gods/god-like beings don’t necessarily have direct control over their closest followers.

Rhaegar.1203:

Where do you get this “trying to ascend to godhood”? The reason for the war he’s waging on his half-brother has never been stated.

Since he is trying to usurp Balthazar, it’s relatively safe to assume that he’d want to completely take his place. Doesn’t mean that this is his primary objective, but certainly a part of what he’s doing.

Rhaegar.1203:

For years we thought about the gods as The Five. It was only when Nightfall was released that we counted one more among them. Who’s to say there aren’t more (many more) that just have not revealed themselves?

Highly unlikely within this pantheon. As we found out, they were actually always The Six, we just didn’t know. So I doubt ArenaNet would pull that same plot off once again. Aside from that, the gods represent certain ascepts of life & magic, and there’s not too much left to fill in.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Nothing puts him as divine.

Yeah, I know. I was just using it as a rough description, because he is related to the Six.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And there are gods that exist outside of the Six, if other races are to be believed.

Yes, but we’re talking about how the human pantheon works, aren’t we? At least that’s what I was referring to.

Agroman.7190:

Why wouldn’t he? Okay, perhaps he wouldn’t need the priest. But for one to benefit from divine boons in the absence of the actual god is usually seen to require some sort of medium, be it prayer & communication with an avatar or the blessing of a priest. At least that’s how it seemingly worked with the Five/Six in GW1.

There are several cases where individuals receive blessings from a divine being (Six God or Spirits of the Wild in these cases) from statue alone. Kneeling in front of Reaper’s Gate in GW2 for example, or going to the Raven Shrine/Wolf Shrine in EotN.

Agroman.7190:

Yes, but we’re talking about how the human pantheon works, aren’t we? At least that’s what I was referring to.

We are talking about the Six, yes, but you said “As far as we know, being an actual god requires you to be one of the Six.”

And that is simply incorrect. You do not have to be one of the Six to be an actual god.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

There are several cases where individuals receive blessings from a divine being (Six God or Spirits of the Wild in these cases) from statue alone. Kneeling in front of Reaper’s Gate in GW2 for example, or going to the Raven Shrine/Wolf Shrine in EotN.

I would count this as prayer. Of course this is done by kneeling, gameplay-wise.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

We are talking about the Six, yes, but you said “As far as we know, being an actual god requires you to be one of the Six.”

And that is simply incorrect. You do not have to be one of the Six to be an actual god.

As I said, I was talking strictly about how the human pantheon seems to work. Of course there are other deities. And subjectively, anything can be a god to, say, a bunch of grawl. :P

Right, I would count it as a prayer to, but it is a prayer that does not involve a living medium like an avatar or priest. Which was my point.

And as I said, that line heavily implies you meant god in general which was why I was replying. If all you meant is “you need to be one of the Six Gods to be one of the Six” you basically stated “water is wet”. Which… in that case, why’d you even say that?

Plus you said that in response to Menzies being a god, so you were saying “Menzies isn’t an actual god because he’s not one of the Six” so I don’t think you were talking strictly about how the human pantheon works in that post. So…. Hence reply. :P

Agroman.7190:

Rhaegar.1203:

Where do you get this “trying to ascend to godhood”? The reason for the war he’s waging on his half-brother has never been stated.

Since he is trying to usurp Balthazar, it’s relatively safe to assume that he’d want to completely take his place. Doesn’t mean that this is his primary objective, but certainly a part of what he’s doing.

“Take his place” doesn’t mean “acquire godhood”. You can do the first while already being a god. Sort of like Lyssa now claiming domain over Water after Abaddon’s fall.

Agroman.7190:

Rhaegar.1203:

For years we thought about the gods as The Five. It was only when Nightfall was released that we counted one more among them. Who’s to say there aren’t more (many more) that just have not revealed themselves?

Highly unlikely within this pantheon. As we found out, they were actually always The Six, we just didn’t know. So I doubt ArenaNet would pull that same plot off once again. Aside from that, the gods represent certain ascepts of life & magic, and there’s not too much left to fill in.

Fair enough. I was mostly responding to your statement that to be a god, you have to be one of the Six. Seems to me a logical fallacy: Kormir was not one of the Six, because there were already Six; she had to take one of the Six’s power to become a god. She was NOT part of the Six. She joined them.
And then there’s Gaheron Baelfire, who sort of achieves a form of godhood (Apparently inspired by Kormir’s deeds).

Rhaegar.1203:

“Take his place” doesn’t mean “acquire godhood”. You can do the first while already being a god. Sort of like Lyssa now claiming domain over Water after Abaddon’s fall.

Lyssa was a god in the first place, however, so that comparison wouldn’t

Rhaegar.1203:

And then there’s Gaheron Baelfire, who sort of achieves a form of godhood (Apparently inspired by Kormir’s deeds).

He doesn’t obtain anything close to godhood, and nothing really says he was inspired by Kormir – rather, he was going for godhood because the Flame Legion were still set in the “charr need gods to rule because humans had gods when they ruled” mentality, but after the events of GW1 it the Flame Legion got this mentality of “adopting gods is willingly following a weak(er) being, we must make our own god to be truly strong and rule”.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Rhaegar.1203:

“Take his place” doesn’t mean “acquire godhood”. You can do the first while already being a god. Sort of like Lyssa now claiming domain over Water after Abaddon’s fall.

Lyssa was a god in the first place, however, so that comparison wouldn’t

And I say she was right in the same quote you brought up. Read again.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Rhaegar.1203:

And then there’s Gaheron Baelfire, who sort of achieves a form of godhood (Apparently inspired by Kormir’s deeds).

He doesn’t obtain anything close to godhood, and nothing really says he was inspired by Kormir – rather, he was going for godhood because the Flame Legion were still set in the “charr need gods to rule because humans had gods when they ruled” mentality, but after the events of GW1 it the Flame Legion got this mentality of “adopting gods is willingly following a weak(er) being, we must make our own god to be truly strong and rule”.

Fair enough, the only one that mentions Kormir is Logan, who says Gaheron is probably trying to do the same as she did all those years ago. But nothing in lore supports it, or even that Gaheron attained godhood.

And I’m saying that the comparison of using Lyssa doesn’t work because she was a god.

In other words: A non-god cannot take over a god’s domain. One needs to be a god to do such.

So saying what is basically “Menzies can do something that Lyssa did” is false.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

In other words: A non-god cannot take over a god’s domain. One needs to be a god to do such.

Says who?

There’s no evidence pointing out to non-gods being able to usurp a god’s domain.

But there’s also no evidence pointing the other way!
So, how can you conclude so?

It seems to me having say over a domain is what it means to be a God (in regards to the Six). This would also imply the domains are more than just a claim, that they are (by lack of a better word) tangible and are backed up by a certain power over that domain that the others can’t replicate or overcome. Otherwise, I can’t seem to think of a reason to wage war on one of the Six in order to defeat one other. If it is just to take the general power a God possesses, there are probably easier ways, by means of going after less powerful beings, to get to the same level of power or even go beyond that. Take the Fissure of Woe for example. Menzies practically had taken over the entire realm and was thus rivals Balthazar in power (somehow I don’t believe Balthazar let Menzies take over his entire domain just to make a point by having only 8 of his champions take it back), even though he is generally not regarded as a God.

In regards to the OP, although I guess we can safely assume the Elder Dragons are not the same as the Six Gods, there certainly seems to be a correlation between the two that I don’t think is a coincidence. 6 Gods versus 6 Dragons, each with 2* spheres of influence? At the moment we only have 4 spheres confirmed (if we call the Priory mentioning it as a fact actual proof) for the Elder Dragons, which are not entirely the same as the ones we use for the Gods. They could sometimes just be different words used in different interpretations of said spheres. Mordremoths ‘Plant’ can be linked to Melandru’s Nature and ‘Mind’ to Lyssa’s ‘Illusion’, while Zhaitan’s ‘Death’ would then clearly be linked to Grenth’s ‘Death’. Only ‘Shadow’ is not really clear to me. It could be Kormir’s ‘Secrets’ as both are mediums to hide the truth. Keep in mind that the general perception is that the Dragons are evil and the Gods are good, which will have an impact in how we the spheres of influence are named by the people of Tyria (‘Secrets’ are something everybody has and can relate to, so can be appointed to a ‘good’ deity. ‘Shadow’ sounds much more ominous, hence appointed to the ‘evil’ deity).

Anyhow, both the Dragons and the Gods claiming the same influences could be possible because the Gods are said to have come from another planet. Seeing how the world Tyria seems to have a central role in the whole mechanism of magic, it could be each planet has it’s own reserve of magic associated with the domains, and the Gods just took theirs with them when they left/fled their previous world.

(*On a sidenote, although the wiki mentions more domains for each of the Gods, I wasn’t able to find the source for that info so I tend to keep to the domains mentioned in the original Guild Wars Manuscripts, which mentions 2 domains per god.)

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Right, I would count it as a prayer to, but it is a prayer that does not involve a living medium like an avatar or priest. Which was my point.

Perhaps I should have said “prayer and/or communication with an avatar”. By medium, I just simply mean a being/thing/place which is impowered by a deity.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And as I said, that line heavily implies you meant god in general which was why I was replying. If all you meant is “you need to be one of the Six Gods to be one of the Six” you basically stated “water is wet”. Which… in that case, why’d you even say that?

Because Menzies is heavily related to the Six and thus human religion. His relevance outside of that system can be assumed to be rather irrelevant.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Plus you said that in response to Menzies being a god, so you were saying “Menzies isn’t an actual god because he’s not one of the Six” so I don’t think you were talking strictly about how the human pantheon works in that post. So…. Hence reply. :P

Well, I was talking about the human pantheon, I can only repeat that. I didn’t state it explicitly because I assumed everyone would know that other religious systems are not of relevance in this example.

Rhaegar.1203:

Fair enough. I was mostly responding to your statement that to be a god, you have to be one of the Six. Seems to me a logical fallacy: Kormir was not one of the Six, because there were already Six; she had to take one of the Six’s power to become a god. She was NOT part of the Six. She joined them.

Uh.. no. Well, yes, she did. But I was in no way implying that you have to be one of the original Six to be a god. I was simply saying that you have to be one of the Six – which includes ascending to become one of them and take the place of another. So I don’t see what it matters what she was before that. Which was, btw., exactly the point of my argument. :P

@Inc: That’s pretty much what I’ve been saying for a while now.

It’s possibly also worth noting that some aspects of the gods’ domains do seem to have some mutability: for instance, Lyssa seemed to claim water without giving anything up, which suggests that the elements are not critical parts of the divine portfolios – rather, they claim an element that they feel that they’re suited for.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I would take the title to mean that he serves as Menzies’ priest. That he serves Menzies, but worships something else that Menzies hopes to use for his forces.

The main reason I think this is the entire quest behind him – we take “Unholy Texts” to discover what boon Menzies’ forces had gained from the Priests’ meddling and remove it, but if Menzies was the boon-giver, why would he need a priest to boon his personal army?

Really? Intuitively, I’d say “priest of X” means “priest who worships X” when X is known to be a quasi-divine figure. I guess you could say that a “priest of Queen Jennah” would mean Jennah’s personal spiritual adviser since obviously Jennah isn’t worshipped (or is she?).

Regarding the Unholy Text, we really have no idea what’s in it apart from ‘dark sorcery’. It could well be something Menzies came up with himself, which was transcribed into text form so that Menzies doesn’t have to micromanage the ritual each time (note that the end of the quest involves taking the book back to an Eternal: the point of the quest might not be to deny the knowledge to Menzies’ forces, but to inform the Eternals of what’s going on so they can form a countermeasure). Or it could be some form of non-divine magic, and the Priest of Menzies simply has it because he’s the best spellcaster among the Shadow Army and thus the best suited to figuring it out. Certainly, I don’t see anything to indicate that the Priest of Menzies actually worships someone else (who? Dhuum? Abaddon? Wouldn’t one of their priests look like one of their own demons rather than a shadow soldier?)

As I’ve said, I think Menzies is more a demigod along the lines of what Grenth was before casting down Dhuum – but I don’t see any reason to argue that the “Priest of Menzies” is worshiping some other being. We know it’s not necessary to be a full god or even a partial god for a monk or guardian to be empowered by having faith in you.

draxynnic.3719:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I would take the title to mean that he serves as Menzies’ priest. That he serves Menzies, but worships something else that Menzies hopes to use for his forces.

The main reason I think this is the entire quest behind him – we take “Unholy Texts” to discover what boon Menzies’ forces had gained from the Priests’ meddling and remove it, but if Menzies was the boon-giver, why would he need a priest to boon his personal army?

Really? Intuitively, I’d say “priest of X” means “priest who worships X” when X is known to be a quasi-divine figure. I guess you could say that a “priest of Queen Jennah” would mean Jennah’s personal spiritual adviser since obviously Jennah isn’t worshipped (or is she?).

This. I took it just as nit-picking to support Konig’s stance on the matter. Since it isn’t explicitly stated that this Priest worships Menzies, if leaves room to his interpretation.

draxynnic.3719:

@Inc: That’s pretty much what I’ve been saying for a while now.

It’s possibly also worth noting that some aspects of the gods’ domains do seem to have some mutability: for instance, Lyssa seemed to claim water without giving anything up, which suggests that the elements are not critical parts of the divine portfolios – rather, they claim an element that they feel that they’re suited for.

Indeed, Lyssa taking on a third domain raises some question about the 6×2 format. Then again, we don’t know why (if at all) these are the magic numbers and wheter they are fixed or permit some form of flexibility. With two Dragons now defeated and the Tyrian spheres of Mind, Plant, Shadow and Death ‘released’ we haven’t seen anything particular happen within these spheres.

Another theory (without any proof to back it up and perhaps a bit far-fetched) is that Lyssa taking on Water is just a part of the Abaddon coverup. The Gods couldn’t just let the element of Water disappear, because if Fire, Earth and Air have their own Gods, why not the fourth element? Lyssa could have taken up the domain just in name without actually ‘owning’ it. Who better to fool the people of Tyria than the Goddess of Illusion herself? ‘Secrets’ however would just remind the people that the Gods keep secrets from them and does not seem to be as likely a domain as Water (I don’t think many people saw ‘Secrets’ as a certain domain before Nightfall was released), so that one the Gods did not need to pretend to embody.

Inc.4753:

draxynnic.3719:

@Inc: That’s pretty much what I’ve been saying for a while now.

It’s possibly also worth noting that some aspects of the gods’ domains do seem to have some mutability: for instance, Lyssa seemed to claim water without giving anything up, which suggests that the elements are not critical parts of the divine portfolios – rather, they claim an element that they feel that they’re suited for.

Indeed, Lyssa taking on a third domain raises some question about the 6×2 format. Then again, we don’t know why (if at all) these are the magic numbers and wheter they are fixed or permit some form of flexibility. With two Dragons now defeated and the Tyrian spheres of Mind, Plant, Shadow and Death ‘released’ we haven’t seen anything particular happen within these spheres.

Lyssa’s not the only one, though. The character creation process lists three spheres for each god, that’s where we got the Lyssa as water in the first place (the others are Dwayna- healing, Balthazar- challenge, Melandru- growth, Grenth- darkness, and Kormir- spirit and order, since she was only given the one sphere of truth-not secrets- in GW1). Furthermore, NPCs will often tack on even more, if you go out and listen to the priests- Dwayna and light, Grenth and judgement, Lyssa and love, and so on. Which of these, if any, are full parts of their godly power and which are informal extrapolations by their worshipers isn’t clear. I know what one point, the fact that water got switched around had fed speculations that each god only really had one sphere innate to them, and that the elemental stuff wasn’t intrinsic to them in the same way. Or maybe they’re all godly spheres, and they just can’t be narrowed down and symmetrically categorized like the Dragons can.

Another theory (without any proof to back it up and perhaps a bit far-fetched) is that Lyssa taking on Water is just a part of the Abaddon coverup. The Gods couldn’t just let the element of Water disappear, because if Fire, Earth and Air have their own Gods, why not the fourth element? Lyssa could have taken up the domain just in name without actually ‘owning’ it. Who better to fool the people of Tyria than the Goddess of Illusion herself? ‘Secrets’ however would just remind the people that the Gods keep secrets from them and does not seem to be as likely a domain as Water (I don’t think many people saw ‘Secrets’ as a certain domain before Nightfall was released), so that one the Gods did not need to pretend to embody.

Nope. The Abaddon cover-up was Grenth being ice, and all of us just thinking that ice was how the gods portrayed water. It wasn’t such a stretch, given how much water magic takes the form of ice. Lyssa wasn’t formally associated with water at all until after GW1- she was with reflections, sure, as an extension of duality falling under her sway (another example of not being able to narrow down the spheres), but not water particularly.

Ah, so that is where those other domains came from. Guess I didn’t make enough human characters to remember. Anyhow, them being named in this way makes a strong case for them actually being true (imo), although some seem a little weak. ‘Healing’ is sliding the bar a bit more to the right on the ‘Death-Life’ scale, ‘Growth’ is just one part of ‘Nature’ (decay being the other), and, if you are willing to that far, ‘Challenge’ can be seen as a conflict between you and your goal, and what is ‘War’ but a conflict on a larger scale.

You do have a point about Grenth using Ice as a cover and Water not being mentioned till GW2. For me it seems a bit like a stretch, as I see ‘Ice’ actually more like ‘Cold’ to move it away from the domain of ‘Water’, but from a Human perspective I guess it would make sense. And it is not like my theory wasn’t a stretch in the first place =P.

Rhaegar.1203:

Says who?

There’s no evidence pointing out to non-gods being able to usurp a god’s domain.

But there’s also no evidence pointing the other way!
So, how can you conclude so?

Because there is evidence pointing to that. They’re called a god’s domain for a reason, for starters, and in GW1:

“I have studied the beings you humans call gods. Your stories speak of extremely powerful, almost omnipotent beings who each specialize in one area of superiority.”

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Cipher_of_Melandru

Basically, human legends state that the Six Gods are absolutely powerful in their specific domains. Even if that holds false, the fact that they have power of these domains is part of what makes them a god.

So it goes to logical deduction that if you have power over a god’s domain, you are a god.

Inc.4753:

draxynnic.3719:

@Inc: That’s pretty much what I’ve been saying for a while now.

It’s possibly also worth noting that some aspects of the gods’ domains do seem to have some mutability: for instance, Lyssa seemed to claim water without giving anything up, which suggests that the elements are not critical parts of the divine portfolios – rather, they claim an element that they feel that they’re suited for.

Indeed, Lyssa taking on a third domain raises some question about the 6×2 format. Then again, we don’t know why (if at all) these are the magic numbers and wheter they are fixed or permit some form of flexibility. With two Dragons now defeated and the Tyrian spheres of Mind, Plant, Shadow and Death ‘released’ we haven’t seen anything particular happen within these spheres.

All Six Gods have at least three domains though. Sometimes they’re described with more.

Dwayna is life, light, and healing.
Balthazar is war, fire, and honor.
Melandru is nature, earth, and growth.
Lyssa is illusion, beauty, and water.
Grenth is death, ice, and darkness.
Kormir is knowledge, order, and spirit.

Then if we look at the Facets from EotN we get in addition:

Dwayna is existence
Balthazar is destruction
Melandru is creation

And we’re also told Grenth is destruction and judgment.

Which is curious about destruction, that in GW1 it’s tied to Balthazar, and in GW2 it’s tied to Grenth.

Basically, even before Abaddon’s fall there’s some overlap.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Kormir- spirit and order, since she was only given the one sphere of truth-not secrets- in GW1).

In GW1, she is actually called goddess of secrets a few time, alongside knowledge and truth. She’s also got spirit from the Facet in EotN.

While mortals give an ever-changing list of what the gods are associated with, and the gods themselves may exchange some minor aspects according to how they interpret their domains (for instance, Abaddon possibly took water because he associated the hidden depths of the ocean with hidden knowledge, while Kormir has a different attitude and thus passed it on), I think that a lot of the things that get listed may well be different aspects of the same fundamental domain.

For instance, consider Dwayna. On the one hand, she’s associated with life, healing, compassion, mercy, and so on. These could all be viewed as part of one sphere: Life, say, although one might prefer another term.

On the other hand, we have air, lightning, light, warmth, and things of that nature. Light and Warmth could both be rolled into Sun, which then combines with the other two to get Sky – a sphere that Glint also seemed to be working towards. So Dwayna is essentially the goddess of life and the sky.

Melandru’s three can also be tied to nature, as can Creation, but there’s another point that comes up with the speech of Lyssa’s muse in Gate of Madness: Harmony.

Come to think on it, Lyssa’s speech there might be one of the more important primary sources, since it points to what the gods themselves think is important, not on the interpretations of mortals that have possibly been corrupted over the years. From this, we could work out:

Dwayna is Compassion and Sky
Balthazar is Strength and Competition (war being a form of competition)
Melandru is Nature and Harmony
Grenth is Death and Justice
Lyssa is Beauty and Inspiration (Illusion is essentially a crossover between the two)

Kormir isn’t mentioned in that list, but Spirit and Knowledge would probably be a fair appellation.

From those, I suspect the rest can be derived.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Rhaegar.1203:

Says who?

There’s no evidence pointing out to non-gods being able to usurp a god’s domain.

But there’s also no evidence pointing the other way!
So, how can you conclude so?

Because there is evidence pointing to that. They’re called a god’s domain for a reason, for starters, and in GW1:

“I have studied the beings you humans call gods. Your stories speak of extremely powerful, almost omnipotent beings who each specialize in one area of superiority.”

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Cipher_of_Melandru

Basically, human legends state that the Six Gods are absolutely powerful in their specific domains. Even if that holds false, the fact that they have power of these domains is part of what makes them a god.

So it goes to logical deduction that if you have power over a god’s domain, you are a god.

So Menzies is a god. He is able to corrupt the Forge and make tainted weapons for his Shadow Army; He corrupts the domain itself that way, meaning he has power over it.

Just following your logic.

Different definitions of ‘domain’ here. Konig is referring to the sphere of influence (Dwayna = Life, Balthazar = War, etc), not over the location in the Mists that the god makes their home.

That said, Menzies has the title ‘Lord of Destruction’, which could be interpreted to mean he has that sphere (but then, it’s also associated with Balthazar and apparently Grenth).

Still, I think I’m inclined to go with ‘demigod’ status. Like Grenth pre-ascension, he has some traits of divinity, but I don’t think he’s a full god on par with the Six.

Rhaegar.1203:

So Menzies is a god. He is able to corrupt the Forge and make tainted weapons for his Shadow Army; He corrupts the domain itself that way, meaning he has power over it.

Just following your logic.

The Fissure of Woe is a location, it is not a domain of power or aspect of reality like War is.

And it isn’t Menzies affecting the Eternal Forge, but Seeds of Corruption that taint the fires. But the fires themselves are not Balthazar’s domain of power.

So, no, not following my logic. You’re twisting words and definition meanings.

Most likely, Menzies is either on par to pre-ascension Grenth (who did have some divine-like powers – being titled “Prince of Ice and Sorrow” and apparently having a small degree of power over ice, death, and darkness pre-Ascension as hinted by the Orrian History Scrolls) or on par to Oswald Thorn (a “Spirit Lord” – aka a very powerful soul with lots of magic that is able to warp reality to a limited degree, far less than a god or Elder Dragon).