Guild Wars 2

Zhaitan isn’t dead. He’s weakened.
In the personal story, you never see him “die”, he just falls. His minions are still present in various areas across Tyria, and everything still seems to be the same in Orr, despite his " death".
He’s not really dead, he’s just hiding and regaining his strength to once again rise up and do the same thing again. It would’ve been a good idea to go down and check if Zhaitan was actually dead rather than to assume it, silly pact commander.

Fact: Zones are stuck in time. The state of Orr in the open world is perpetually pre-Zhaitan. Same goes for all other zones besides Southsun, Dry Top, Silverwastes, HoT maps, and any dialogue not affected by the Living World (that has made the placement of maps in time odd – half of Kessex is now post-Zhaitan while half is still pre-Zhaitan).

Fact: Dragon minions do not die with the Elder Dragons’ death (if this was so, all sylvari would have died).

Fact: The Pact did go to ground level. They even collected his tail for the Priory to run experiments on. How they managed to get that tail inside the Durmand Priory’s basement is a mystery solvable only by Leeroy Jethro Gibbs.

Fact: ArenaNet has stated Zhaitan is dead. Mind, they’re known to retcon their forum posts and interviews before when a certain female writer is involved.

Now, it wouldn’t be impossible for Zhaitan’s ‘body’ to be dead but his ‘spirit’ being ‘alive’ and having moved to another body – e.g., Tequatl. This is a theory some have been throwing since Tequatl Rising. And Mordremoth only makes it a bit more realistic.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Fact: Zones are stuck in time. The state of Orr in the open world is perpetually pre-Zhaitan. Same goes for all other zones besides Southsun, Dry Top, Silverwastes, HoT maps, and any dialogue not affected by the Living World (that has made the placement of maps in time odd – half of Kessex is now post-Zhaitan while half is still pre-Zhaitan).

Fact: Dragon minions do not die with the Elder Dragons’ death (if this was so, all sylvari would have died).

Fact: The Pact did go to ground level. They even collected his tail for the Priory to run experiments on. How they managed to get that tail inside the Durmand Priory’s basement is a mystery solvable only by Leeroy Jethro Gibbs.

Fact: ArenaNet has stated Zhaitan is dead. Mind, they’re known to retcon their forum posts and interviews before when a certain female writer is involved.

Now, it wouldn’t be impossible for Zhaitan’s ‘body’ to be dead but his ‘spirit’ being ‘alive’ and having moved to another body – e.g., Tequatl. This is a theory some have been throwing since Tequatl Rising. And Mordremoth only makes it a bit more realistic.

It depends. Does the tail work like a boat?

Otherwise. Since we did not see where Zaithan, or better, his dragon energy went, like with Mordremoth, it is possible that someone or something else might be corrupted to be the next “Zaithan”.

The question is, would he call himself that?

He calls himself Tequatal.

But seriously, zhatain is dead. We got his tail, we see his body in the background of arah dungeon cutscenes, and the dungeon currency is bits of his remains (shards of zhaitan).

Clearly his energy travled out, hitting teq on the way, and probably also a bit to Mordy to help kick off his actions through Scarlett, and certainly the other dragons (I thought the devs said that)

I am surprised that his champion was stronger then him. I mean really what was Zaitian thinking when he created a immortal champion.

Then this doesn’t add up. The natural purpose of the Elder Dragons is to balance out the amount of magic is in the world, making sure there isn’t a surplus. If you take one of them down, wouldn’t that cause problems in the future?

adormtil.1605:

I am surprised that his champion was stronger then him. I mean really what was Zaitian thinking when he created a immortal champion.

What?

It’s implied the turrets/megalaser were enhanced by the Vigil after they took over the site in Tequatl rising. It’s said he was merely defeated, not killed before that point (after tequatl rising, he is dead).

Also, the fights are different. Tequatl would be easier if everybody was using heavy cannons built to kill dragons against it :P.

Teletric.3821:

Then this doesn’t add up. The natural purpose of the Elder Dragons is to balance out the amount of magic is in the world, making sure there isn’t a surplus. If you take one of them down, wouldn’t that cause problems in the future?

Yes. That’s why we are trying to create an Elder Dragon of our own which might prevent such problems.

They’re like the ghosts of Ascalon, only they are capable of taking a physical form, (although Duke Barradin was able to possess a statue, I don’t know if that counts as “taking physical form”). Where does their spirit linger after their body is destroyed? Do dragons have souls? Apparently yes, because of Glint. Somehow Rytlock was able to commune with Glint in the Mists. Or maybe Glint is a special case, or maybe that’s not how Rytlock got Glint’s power? Hope they indulge our curiosity in Living Story season 3.

HaxTester.9816:

Do dragons have souls? Apparently yes, because of Glint. Somehow Rytlock was able to commune with Glint in the Mists. Or maybe Glint is a special case, or maybe that’s not how Rytlock got Glint’s power?

Revenants do not channel souls, they channel echos of people/creatures who have made a big impact on the world and thus on the mists.

Diovid.9506:

HaxTester.9816:

Do dragons have souls? Apparently yes, because of Glint. Somehow Rytlock was able to commune with Glint in the Mists. Or maybe Glint is a special case, or maybe that’s not how Rytlock got Glint’s power?

Revenants do not channel souls, they channel echos of people/creatures who have made a big impact on the world and thus on the mists.

Then where is the hero of GW1?

adormtil.1605:

Diovid.9506:

HaxTester.9816:

Do dragons have souls? Apparently yes, because of Glint. Somehow Rytlock was able to commune with Glint in the Mists. Or maybe Glint is a special case, or maybe that’s not how Rytlock got Glint’s power?

Revenants do not channel souls, they channel echos of people/creatures who have made a big impact on the world and thus on the mists.

Then where is the hero of GW1?

As far as we know, every campaign had their own hero.
The only people who were consistent to a degree were our Tyria-Allstars, as they came around and helped out.

The only canon follow up story, would be Eye of the North, because it could start from every campaign.

“The Hero” of GW1 is not us. It is one of many, since every fight he fought was thanks to others (aside from ascending the first time, though).
If we would channel “the hero” it would be the group around Devona and every ability, would be based on one of her friends, with one called: “The unsung hero” , representing our many forms he could have taken in the past.

Actually, that would be cool.
Devona could be a hammer smash, Mhenlo the healing, Cynn Aoe elemental damage.
Each of them apearing as a ghostly facet… only the hero without a face or a distinctive design… He could do a lot of confusion

adormtil.1605:

Diovid.9506:

HaxTester.9816:

Do dragons have souls? Apparently yes, because of Glint. Somehow Rytlock was able to commune with Glint in the Mists. Or maybe Glint is a special case, or maybe that’s not how Rytlock got Glint’s power?

Revenants do not channel souls, they channel echos of people/creatures who have made a big impact on the world and thus on the mists.

Then where is the hero of GW1?

Or Abaddon or Togo or Doric or Odran or Turai or Varesh or Khilbron or Saul or Vizu or Bonfaaz or Asgeir or Pyre or many other important historical figures.

Anet limited Revenents mechanically in which legends they can channel but that doesn’t change the lore.

Jaken.6801:

As far as we know, every campaign had their own hero.
The only people who were consistent to a degree were our Tyria-Allstars, as they came around and helped out.

The only canon follow up story, would be Eye of the North, because it could start from every campaign.

“The Hero” of GW1 is not us. It is one of many, since every fight he fought was thanks to others (aside from ascending the first time, though).
If we would channel “the hero” it would be the group around Devona and every ability, would be based on one of her friends, with one called: “The unsung hero” , representing our many forms he could have taken in the past.

Actually, that would be cool.
Devona could be a hammer smash, Mhenlo the healing, Cynn Aoe elemental damage.
Each of them apearing as a ghostly facet… only the hero without a face or a distinctive design… He could do a lot of confusion

That’s debatable. You can very much play through every campaign with the same character, they even have specific points where the character enters the narration. Aside from that, Devonna and the gang don’t show up for most of Prophecies. Saying she and the others did everything is a bit of a stretch. They also only appear alongside the Prophecies PC in Factions, so after the quarter of the story already took place and they also only appear in Nightfall after the Elonian PC already did all that stuff in Istan. And in that game they barely even matter since the game had the hero npcs from that point on, so Koss, Dunkoro and so on.
If anyone even remotely matters it’s Mhenlo, since he had the role of mentor for the Cantha adventure, for non-canthan PCs. Still he was less significant to the plot than Togo. Aside from that Devonna and the others only ever tag along. The PC is clearly the leader of the group, once the actual leader dies/too injured to fight (Rurik in Proph, Togo in Factions and Kormir in Nightfall). And EotN doesn’t even bother with a mentor anymore (and why would it? no matter where the PC comes from, he is already an accomplished hero).

BuddhaKeks.4857:

Jaken.6801:

As far as we know, every campaign had their own hero.
The only people who were consistent to a degree were our Tyria-Allstars, as they came around and helped out.

The only canon follow up story, would be Eye of the North, because it could start from every campaign.

“The Hero” of GW1 is not us. It is one of many, since every fight he fought was thanks to others (aside from ascending the first time, though).
If we would channel “the hero” it would be the group around Devona and every ability, would be based on one of her friends, with one called: “The unsung hero” , representing our many forms he could have taken in the past.

Actually, that would be cool.
Devona could be a hammer smash, Mhenlo the healing, Cynn Aoe elemental damage.
Each of them apearing as a ghostly facet… only the hero without a face or a distinctive design… He could do a lot of confusion

That’s debatable. You can very much play through every campaign with the same character, they even have specific points where the character enters the narration. Aside from that, Devonna and the gang don’t show up for most of Prophecies. Saying she and the others did everything is a bit of a stretch. They also only appear alongside the Prophecies PC in Factions, so after the quarter of the story already took place and they also only appear in Nightfall after the Elonian PC already did all that stuff in Istan. And in that game they barely even matter since the game had the hero npcs from that point on, so Koss, Dunkoro and so on.
If anyone even remotely matters it’s Mhenlo, since he had the role of mentor for the Cantha adventure, for non-canthan PCs. Still he was less significant to the plot than Togo. Aside from that Devonna and the others only ever tag along. The PC is clearly the leader of the group, once the actual leader dies/too injured to fight (Rurik in Proph, Togo in Factions and Kormir in Nightfall). And EotN doesn’t even bother with a mentor anymore (and why would it? no matter where the PC comes from, he is already an accomplished hero).

Of course. However the hero was always part of a group.
Even if he was the one who went through everything (and I know, we can carry the hero and his group over from everywhere, since they are chronologicaly after each other and each of them sends out a call for help), he never did things alone.
Of course he should be mentioned in some way, but time isn`t always so greatful.

Jermoe Morrow.9501:

He calls himself Tequatal.

But seriously, zhatain is dead. We got his tail, we see his body in the background of arah dungeon cutscenes, and the dungeon currency is bits of his remains (shards of zhaitan).

Clearly his energy travled out, hitting teq on the way, and probably also a bit to Mordy to help kick off his actions through Scarlett, and certainly the other dragons (I thought the devs said that)

While purely speculative this does seem to be the case, and no the devs didn’t say anything – especially about Tequatl’s power boost, beyond “it’s part of the story”.

I wouldn’t take the concept art in the background of the side-by-side cinematics in Arah explorable to be serious because it shows up in Victory or Death too – before Zhaitan’s death. It’s just the Arah cinematic background. I also wouldn’t take much stock in the “Shards of Zhaitan” item unless you’re going to argue that Zhaitan had so many eyes (which are what the Shards depict) that millions of players can carry around about a thousand or more each. He had plenty of heads, but not that many.

Furthermore, Tequatl is dead now. Unless Tequatl can survive losing his tail, his eye (now part of the Rodgort collection), and Rox is wrong about having killed Tequatl with dozens to hundreds of adventurers.

adormtil.1605:

I am surprised that his champion was stronger then him. I mean really what was Zaitian thinking when he created a immortal champion.

Zhaitan didn’t. In lore, even after Tequatl’s power boost, Zhaitan was stronger.

It took an army to take down Zhaitan, after Zhaitan was starved from magic for weeks.

The only dragon minions claimed to be ‘immortal’ would be Shadow of the Dragon and Mazdak the Accursed, but ‘immortal’ doesn’t mean ‘powerful’.

Teletric.3821:

Then this doesn’t add up. The natural purpose of the Elder Dragons is to balance out the amount of magic is in the world, making sure there isn’t a surplus. If you take one of them down, wouldn’t that cause problems in the future?

In theory.

But that’s a bit of a ways off, and the PC didn’t really know of this until S2, and supposedly this is why Glint’s egg is so kitten important despite it never actually being stated why by, well, anyone.

HaxTester.9816:

They’re like the ghosts of Ascalon, only they are capable of taking a physical form, (although Duke Barradin was able to possess a statue, I don’t know if that counts as “taking physical form”). Where does their spirit linger after their body is destroyed? Do dragons have souls? Apparently yes, because of Glint. Somehow Rytlock was able to commune with Glint in the Mists. Or maybe Glint is a special case, or maybe that’s not how Rytlock got Glint’s power? Hope they indulge our curiosity in Living Story season 3.

Revenants don’t commune with souls. They commune with sapient echoes made by the Mists – or so all not-in-the-game lore on revenants imply.

Think of the champions summoned during Stronghold matches – they’re not souls, because you can have multiple of them up at once. They’re echoes, like the Echo of Turai Ossa seen during S2’s final episode, but they’re sapient and not just repeating history.

adormtil.1605:

Then where is the hero of GW1?

Not being channeled. In theory, they could be (by indication, there were three heroes in GW1 – one per campaign).

And it’s pretty obvious that revenants aren’t channeling the most legendary figures let alone all of them.

BuddhaKeks.4857:

That’s debatable. You can very much play through every campaign with the same character, they even have specific points where the character enters the narration.

Three things:

1. It was confirmed that the Nightfall quests that would take players to Prophecies/Factions was not canon lore. Same would go for Factions to Prophecies. Because the campaigns took place already.
2. It’s impossible for Ogden, Vekk, and the others to have been beneath three different cities that are across the globe at the same time.
3. Young Heroes of Tyria mentions three heroes.
4. It would seem to me that each subsequent campaign added the previous heroes because, as you said, each campaign had a narrative explanation for bringing them into the new land. E.g., Prophecies had 1 hero; Factions had 2; Nightfall had 3; Eye of the North had 3. I only say EN having three due to the presence of Factions and Nightfall henchmen (Zho, Talon, Lo Sha, Herta).

BuddhaKeks.4857:

If anyone even remotely matters it’s Mhenlo, since he had the role of mentor for the Cantha adventure, for non-canthan PCs.

Truth be told, I’m surprised that it was Ventari, not Mhenlo, who became the Revenant’s “healer legendary”.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

BuddhaKeks.4857:

If anyone even remotely matters it’s Mhenlo, since he had the role of mentor for the Cantha adventure, for non-canthan PCs.

Truth be told, I’m surprised that it was Ventari, not Mhenlo, who became the Revenant’s “healer legendary”.

My guess is they didn’t want all Revenant heroes to be human and/or related mostly to human history. Ventari is both non-human and very imporant to Sylvari (even if he still has some connection to human history). I can see future legends being related to the other playable races. Although, to be fair, the other races have far fewer relevant characters to choose from than the humans (thanks to how most history we know of is so human-centric). Asgeir or Jora for the norn could work. As would Pyre or Burnfaaz for the Charr. Oola and Snaff could work for Asura I guess. The problem is of course that gameplay considerations limit this already small list even further. Anyways, sorry for the off-topic ramble.

Also, just think about Rytlock standing in front of the Pale Tree, when we (finaly?) enter the Sylvari civil war, or better, the aftermath of HoT and finaly get her to spill the beans (which she won`t completly, because … mystery… you know… can I please punch everyone who definetly knows more than he tells us?).

Pale Tree: I am the Pale Tree, how may I help you?
Rytlock: Yeah, Yeah, i have something to tell you from someone you might know.
Pale Tree: I don´t know, who could.
Rytlock: It`s that Ventari guy, he says that you should get your act together.

And on orn heroes… didn`t Asgeir have Spear or so? I want to throw it like a javelin.

I actually don’t believe Zhaitan OR Mordremoth are dead. I think it’s much more likely they were just knocked out to a point where they’re back to sleep.

As for Zhaitan’s tail, if you pay attention to the story, we actually blast off 1 or 2 of them before we even begin the final ‘killing’ phase. The priory having a tail of his isn’t proof that he’s dead.

I’m pretty sure having your head impaled does a bit more than knocking out.

And I don’t think anyone said that the tail is proof that Zhaitan’s dead. I said it’s proof that the Pact went to ground level to around where Zhaitan fell. Which means that they would have also gone nearby his corpse. Or have acknowledged that the corpse was missing. (Fun fact: He also loses an arm and a wing during the fight).

@Jaken: Asgeir’s weapon is unknown. Only spear in relation to Elder Dragons is the one Rytlock tried to use on Kralkatorrik at Glint’s directions.

Considering the amorphous nature of the GW1 PC, I’ve generally considered that the most practical way that could be referenced at all is as a summoner. Everything you do as the GW1 PC is with a band of allies, so a legend based on that could have a healing skill that summons a monk ally, and a set of other skills that summon various other allies. That would also allow them to make nods to various other GW1 NPCs that probably don’t really have what it takes to make a good legend in their own right. (Anything with a well-defined profession that exists in GW2, for instance – the revenant strikes me in part as being a profession to collect together ideas that are worth having but don’t quite make for a full profession as they are.)

I totally would love if Zhaitan or if his spirit move on to….oh I don’t know…Palawa Joko!! Ahhhh one can only dream! "
Any creature claming to be master of Death and such is known to be reeeeeaaaally hard to kill… I would not mind take a crack out the elder Dragon now that I can use my glider… also the rumors goes that the Explorable instance was meant originally to be the final fight on Zhaitan but time restriction force the Devs to Patch in Giganticus Lupicus as final boss…

Hope your right on he not being Dead, dead…

Why Joko… He isn’t a risen. He’s fully unrelated to Zhaitan except as an enemy.

Plus Joko probably has one of the best villain personalities, don’t wanna override that with Big Z.

And the explorable dungeon was meant to have Zhaitan’s body. No fight. You’re thinking, I bet, of WoodenPotatoes’ wild and unsupported theory of a data mined map that mirrors the Fissure of Woe and has the original head of Zhaitan model as part of its landscape.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Why Joko… He isn’t a risen. He’s fully unrelated to Zhaitan except as an enemy.

Plus Joko probably has one of the best villain personalities, don’t wanna override that with Big Z.

And the explorable dungeon was meant to have Zhaitan’s body. No fight. You’re thinking, I bet, of WoodenPotatoes’ wild and unsupported theory of a data mined map that mirrors the Fissure of Woe and has the original head of Zhaitan model as part of its landscape.

Um…right…mhmm… I think Im done posting for today… going to silently walk away, so the topic may continue and not get toxic.

(Warning 2)

There’s… nothing toxic about my post – not to you, certainly.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I’m pretty sure having your head impaled does a bit more than knocking out.

If I remember, the impaled head isn’t Mordremoth himself. Just his mouth. His true form is his spirit, or something like that… So I don’t think that getting the head of his mouth impaled would really kill him.

But I’m not really sure of it, of course.

The Mouth of Mordremoth is Mordremoth’s physical body. However, Mordremoth is capable of transferring his mind and regrowing his body from his corruption – thus why we have to ‘get into his head’ in the story instances.

So why doesn’t Zhaitan exist in the Mists like every other dead person?

Teletric.3821:

So why doesn’t Zhaitan exist in the Mists like every other dead person?

He/she might be, but not in the form we know.

Depending on which theory you follow, you become an Elder Dragon by absorbing their power.

A being called or named Zaithan governed the ED energy of death and shadow the last thousand years, however if Mordremoth is any indication the dragon we see as physical manifestation doesn`t have to be original body of the being who absorbed the power.

As we entered Mordremoth`s mind, he attacked us with something, which could have been his true self, while the snake/dragon outside is the physical manifestation of being an ED.

So the being called Zaithan can easily be in the mists (and the mists can reflect any state, so he could also be in his ED form), but not as a big dragon.
He could have been something else.

However that is just a theory. To answer your mist question: There is no reason not to believe that he isn`t there, as the mists are not flowing in one direction, but representing and reflecting everything.

Teletric.3821:

So why doesn’t Zhaitan exist in the Mists like every other dead person?

Two reasons.

First, we don’t go to any afterlife in the Mists except the Mad Realm, which is where insane people under the jurisdiction of Grenth go.

Second, we don’t even know if dragons have souls. We don’t even see any sylvari souls for that matter.

And for the record: no, Heralds do not channel Glint’s soul but an echo of her, like all other revenant legendaries. They’re as much of a soul as Turai Ossa in Stronghold maps are (and multiple Turais can exist at the same time there) – all of such are copies, called echoes.

The only dragon who’s influence we’ve felt in the Mists is Jormag, and he’s had minions entering the Mists via Sons of Svanir.