(edited by Dondagora.9645)
Theory on Human/Mursaat Origins
Snipping your bullet points into a single quote for space saving:
- Some Humans are “Chosen”, which allows various uses
- Chosen, for some reason, can be ritually killed to become Soul Batteries
- Chosen, for some reason, can Ascend to gain a dimensional sight to see Mursaat
- Exalted: Sub-immortal beings of magic created[?] by Glint
- Exalted: Similar in appearance to Mursaat
- Mursaat: Hidden to the naked eye except for the Chosen
- The term “chosen” is only used in reference to the Flameseeker Prophecies. They are the individuals who would fulfill the prophecies. The White Mantle used the term as a scapegoat – by all indication – for sacrifices.
- Anyone can be killed to power soul batteries. They do not “become” soul batteries. It’s like recharging a battery with electricity – except in this case you’re replacing “electricity” with “souls” (hence the name “soul battery”).
- Anyone can Ascend, it’s just that the Chosen would ascend per Glint’s prophecies. Weh no Su is also Ascension and every Canthan Emperor – and others – Ascend using this method. Both Ascension and Weh no Su allows seeing things that cannot be seen by the practical eye – souls who can hide themselves within the Spirit Realm (aka The Mists) and beings who can slip partway into the Mists. Both do the same thing: allows the one who ascended to see into the Mists.
- Exalted were created by the Forgotten, not Glint.
- They are more similar in appearance to the Enchanted, a construct army utilized by Forgotten.
- Mursaat had a spell that could allow them to enter the Mists part-way, thus allowing them to be hidden to the naked eye except for those who’ve Ascended – chosen or not.
So, here’s the theory: Humans and Mursaat were of the same ancestor, meaning they’re related. They existed in the Mists or some other dimension before the Mursaat up and left for Tyria for the first time, leaving their less-magical brethren in their home world. This can explain why Humans in particular have the capability to gain Mursaat-sight via Ascension.
An ancient, ancient theory from the days of Prophecies. That one was brought up by Quintus Antonious over on GWO forums, the theory being that mursaat were ascended humans.
It’s proven wrong in the fact that mursaat and humanity hold different origins. Humans come from another world entirely, as you pointed out, while mursaat are Tyrian in origin.
Technically, even non-humans can become Ascended – Talon Silverwing, a tengu, is likely Ascended via Weh no Su trials during Factions, for example, as he’s capable of fighting Shiro Tagachi (and the heroes needed to become Weh no Su – aka Ascended – to fight him due to the ability all souls have to slip into the Mists at will).
There’s also a physical difference between humans and mursaat. For example, the wings and toes. Mursaat have three large toes while humans, as we all know, have five smaller toes. Mursaat have a series of “feathers” as wings on their backs – humans do not.
In this, the Mursaat were originally humans who unlocked this potential to transform into what they are today. The Exalted went through a similar process, thus why they are so similar to Mursaat in appearance.
But mursaat are flesh and blood, while Exalted are literally souls encased in armor… That’s not a similarity at all.
Exalted armor looks a bit like mursaat armor; but Exalted armor looks like Enchanted armor which looks like tarnished mursaat armor. And we’ve been told that the Enchanted are NOT related to the mursaat. By extension, the Exalted would NOT be related to the mursaat.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
I see~
But, a question: Chosen were indicated in the Prophesy, yes, but the Mursaat killed multiple Chosen. What is the difference between the Chosen and the non-Chosen which made the Mursaat wish to kill some but not all humans? Wouldn’t this mean that Chosen are a subcategory of humans?
I see~
But, a question: Chosen were indicated in the Prophesy, yes, but the Mursaat killed multiple Chosen. What is the difference between the Chosen and the non-Chosen which made the Mursaat wish to kill some but not all humans? Wouldn’t this mean that Chosen are a subcategory of humans?
I believe that the white mantle (and as such the mursaat) used the term “chosen” to try and put some honor in their sacrifice, while in reality it could be anyone dying on the bloodstone. The reason why they killed some, but not all, is simple. They still need humans to charge the soul batteries every time, so if they kill all the humans they have no more souls to charge the battery.
Atleast that’s my view on it.
I believe that the white mantle (and as such the mursaat) used the term “chosen” to try and put some honor in their sacrifice, while in reality it could be anyone dying on the bloodstone. The reason why they killed some, but not all, is simple. They still need humans to charge the soul batteries every time, so if they kill all the humans they have no more souls to charge the battery.
I’m not sure it is that simple. The Mursaat weren’t just killing anyone, they used the Eye of Janthir to identify the chosen, through what method we don’t know, but if it was purely random then why bother with it at all. Perhaps it was identifying those who might become ascended, those with high magical aptitude, or whose souls might provide the most power. Or maybe it was midichlorians, who knows for certain. But there was clearly some method to the selection process, they didn’t just take anyone.
And the Mursaat may not have been sacrificing the chosen simply to charge soul batteries. In the prophecy Glint had said that the Mursaat would meet their demise at the hands of the Chosen. It wasn’t simply a human farm for soul batteries, had the Mursaat truly been evil they could just have wiped out all humans, instead they took only those who posed a threat to their race, leaving the others unharmed.
(edited by Swizzle.7982)
I believe that the white mantle (and as such the mursaat) used the term “chosen” to try and put some honor in their sacrifice, while in reality it could be anyone dying on the bloodstone. The reason why they killed some, but not all, is simple. They still need humans to charge the soul batteries every time, so if they kill all the humans they have no more souls to charge the battery.
I’m not sure it is that simple. The Mursaat weren’t just killing anyone, they used the Eye of Janthir to identify the chosen, through what method we don’t know, but if it was simply random then why bother with it at all. Perhaps it was identifying those who might become ascended, or those whose souls might provide the most power, or maybe it was midichlorians, who knows. But there was clearly some method to the selection process, they didn’t just take anyone.
I actually had forgotten about the eye of janthir, its been quite a long time since last playing that mission :p
Hmm i do wonder what the eye looked for specifically. Was it simply the strength of the soul (there being naturally stronger/weaker souls) or is there some aspect in humans that does seperate them amongst themselves.
I see~
But, a question: Chosen were indicated in the Prophesy, yes, but the Mursaat killed multiple Chosen. What is the difference between the Chosen and the non-Chosen which made the Mursaat wish to kill some but not all humans? Wouldn’t this mean that Chosen are a subcategory of humans?
The Prophecies were widely talked about in the White Mantle, as part of their “scriptures”
From Gates of Kryta:
“The dead rising could only mean one thing. The last days of the prophecies are near.”
“The scriptures speak of the walking dead. Soon the true seers will be revealed.”
“The war against the divine will begin soon. We must prepare ourselves.”
“These days have been foreseen. It is the beginnings of the prophecies.”
“Won’t be long now. The Divine Caretakers have prepared for the coming of the undead.”
The White Mantle and Mursaat didn’t know who the chosen were – that’s how the PC managed to slip through their hunt – so they used the Eye of Janthir to seek out those who had powerful potential magic and simply called them Chosen.
Those sacrifices, in other words, were (most likely) not Chosen.
Note: I say most likely because this isn’t confirmed. However, the complete and utter lack of the term “Chosen” outside of the Flameseeker Prophecies (ignoring the title Chosen and the precursor The Chosen) does indicate that the term only had any form of relevance in regards to the Prophecies. Take into mind that the White Mantle were not above trickery and lies, it seems most likely that those commoners being Chosen was a ruse.
Why they didn’t kill everyone is simple and could be for many reasons. Foremost would be to avoid mass revolts – openly killing people isn’t exactly smiled upon. But secondly, those they call “Chosen” could be them actually seeing those who are most likely to cause a problem for them and killing them off.
Then there’s also a good chance they did kill folks without proclaiming them Chosen, but kept it hush hush. I recall dialogue – though I can’t pin point it after searching unfortunately – that indicated that people were going missing after arguing with White Mantle folks.
I’m not sure it is that simple. The Mursaat weren’t just killing anyone, they used the Eye of Janthir to identify the chosen, through what method we don’t know, but if it was purely random then why bother with it at all.
Well, you’d bother for pretext. The entire point of the Test of the Chosen in the public eye was to bring the Chosen to the Temple of the Unseen for special training into White Mantle members.
They also claimed that the Eye sought out those with high magic.
What if the latter is true – that the Eye sought out those with high magic – but the former – that they’re Chosen – is false? And they only use the term because it’s believed those people might be the actual Chosen/because their scriptures which talk of Chosen rising (a part of the prophecies) is public knowledge?
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
On the topic of Chosen, there’s villagers called Chosen Villagers as NPC’s, which could just be part of the deception, but then again there are Captive Chosen. Either its part of the deception or that these people are truly what are called “Chosen”.
Still on the topic of the title “Chosen”, there’s Jadoth who is called “chosen of Abaddon”, first of the Margonites, followers who received Abaddon’s magic. Might not be relevant, but these Margonites did survive through the Domain of Torment for hundreds of years despite having absorbed the energies to the point of becoming demons. Though, that could be another adaptation of human ascension. Might also not be related, but whatever.
Theory adaptation: Mursaat and Enchanted both stem from the common ancestor of Humanity in the same way that Margonites and Exalted do. The processes may have been different, but they both “Ascended” from their mortal forms via magic.
Some are saying that Mursaat are Tyrian natives, but I see no such text specifying that, only that they predate humanity coming over [correct me if I’m wrong] so no hole so far. Forgotten had created Enchanted [the empty moving armor] so it is likely that they are adapted from Exalted, or possibly the first attempt at Exalted.
My speculation is that the Mursaat created humans as their servants while hiding in the Mist. When they return Tyria, they left behind the humans. While being in the Mist, human learned how to master the magic. The most powerful human become the six human gods. However, as human populated the realms, the barriers between the realms and Tyria weaken, just like how the realm of torrent opened a portal in Elona in Fraction timeline. Eventually humans gods open the portal and brought humans to Tyria.
Since Mursaat were the original master of human, there is always a special relationship between Mursaat and humans.
On the Chosen, I disagree with Konig. In saying that, I’d acknowledge that there’s nothing that explicitly disproves his theory – however, I think there is some circumstantial evidence that the term ‘Chosen’ refers to more than just the handful of humans that took down the mursaat fortress on the Ring of Fire and went on to deliver a second death to Khilbron.
First, the Eye of Janthir was looking for something. I don’t think it was able to peer into people’s minds and sense dissent (most of the Chosen were eager to go), so either it’s simply looking for powerful magical potential (possible threats) or there is actually a Chosen state that it’s looking for.
Second, there’s the wording from Vizier Khilbron at the end of Sanctum Cay. After instructing us to claim the gift of True Sight, Khilbron immediately informs us that we are all Chosen – implying that being Chosen is a prerequisite for being able to do so, rather than it being something that anyone can do. Second, he says that the party are “all Chosen”, not “the Chosen” – implying that there are more Chosen that do not take part in the prophecy.
Third, as a rebuttal: There’s actually no story reason why Talon would have to be Weh No Su in Factions. After we achieve that status, Shiro never fights us while in his spiritual form – he inhabits constructs, and eventually reconstitutes his original body, with which to fight us. Us being Weh No Su means he can’t just kill us from the spirit world, and for whatever reason, after that he never fights us in spirit form. Talon doesn’t need to be able to see the spirit world to participate in that sort of fight – he just needs the presence of at least one Weh No Su character to apparently force Shiro to fight in the corporeal world.
Personally, my supposition is that the Chosen are humans in which the gifts of the gods are particularly strong, and that human heroes in GW2 are also Chosen. This would explain why, while most other racial skills are fairly commonplace among their race, human racial skills seem to only be usable by PCs and are rare enough that most humans think the gods just aren’t answering prayers at all any more – only the Chosen have that potential.
We might get to see that if we ever get a shot at true Ascension – but that’s probably too much focus on a single race for ArenaNet’s liking. It would be interesting, though, if they do make a story instance or two where humans are granted the ability to wield Divine Fire by the Exalted, while other races get some other set of tools with which to complete the mission.
When it comes to mursaat-human links: There, I agree with Konig. While there are similarities, I think there are too many differences between humans and mursaat, and between humans and Exalted, to make that connection, and while theoretically you could find loopholes in the canon through which a connection is possible, it seems much more likely that humans and mursaat, being native to different worlds (and from the Orrian History Scrolls, the humans did come from a different world, not simply the Mists), are completely unrelated and the similarity in appearance is a coincidence.
To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
On the topic of Chosen, there’s villagers called Chosen Villagers as NPC’s, which could just be part of the deception, but then again there are Captive Chosen. Either its part of the deception or that these people are truly what are called “Chosen”.
I would argue this was part of ArenaNet’s deception towards the players. Take note that there isn’t a single NPC called “Chosen” after the White Mantle are revealed to be evil (e.g., end of Bloodstone Fen). In lore, most Chosen that were rescued joined the Shining Blade but there are no “Shining Blade Chosen” NPCs nor are there exceptionally powerful magic users amongst the Shining Blade.
The only “Chosen” we meet later on are called by name – such as Jacob Salinger – or are called “Seal Guards”. Note that each and every one of these “Chosen” are dead and we’re seeing their ghosts that were trapped in soul batteries.
Still on the topic of the title “Chosen”, there’s Jadoth who is called “chosen of Abaddon”, first of the Margonites, followers who received Abaddon’s magic. Might not be relevant, but these Margonites did survive through the Domain of Torment for hundreds of years despite having absorbed the energies to the point of becoming demons. Though, that could be another adaptation of human ascension. Might also not be related, but whatever.
Different things that use the same term. Take note that “chosen of Abaddon” is lowercase. This is just a case of ArenaNet using a common word as a title for a unique thing – as opposed to using “in the ancient fictional tongue” technique that would result in them being called, idk, The Kosan.
Theory adaptation: Mursaat and Enchanted both stem from the common ancestor of Humanity in the same way that Margonites and Exalted do. The processes may have been different, but they both “Ascended” from their mortal forms via magic.
Enchanted, Margonites, and Exalted are not fleshy anymore. They’re all ethereal.
Furthermore, that doesn’t explain the physical differences between mursaat and humans.
Some are saying that Mursaat are Tyrian natives, but I see no such text specifying that, only that they predate humanity coming over [correct me if I’m wrong] so no hole so far. Forgotten had created Enchanted [the empty moving armor] so it is likely that they are adapted from Exalted, or possibly the first attempt at Exalted.
Technically not wrong, but technically not right either. There’s nothing that specifically says “they were born on Tyria” but if they weren’t then chances are that such would be brought up because it’s rather significant – just like how it’s mentioned the Forgotten are not native to Tyria, or humans are not.
If we work on the premise that mursaat are not native to Tyria, then we might as well go and presume all races aren’t. Until told otherwise, it’s safer to assume that biologically different races are not non-natives.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
On the topic of Chosen, there’s villagers called Chosen Villagers as NPC’s, which could just be part of the deception, but then again there are Captive Chosen. Either its part of the deception or that these people are truly what are called “Chosen”.
I would argue this was part of ArenaNet’s deception towards the players. Take note that there isn’t a single NPC called “Chosen” after the White Mantle are revealed to be evil (e.g., end of Bloodstone Fen). In lore, most Chosen that were rescued joined the Shining Blade but there are no “Shining Blade Chosen” NPCs nor are there exceptionally powerful magic users amongst the Shining Blade.
The only “Chosen” we meet later on are called by name – such as Jacob Salinger – or are called “Seal Guards”. Note that each and every one of these “Chosen” are dead and we’re seeing their ghosts that were trapped in soul batteries.
Still on the topic of the title “Chosen”, there’s Jadoth who is called “chosen of Abaddon”, first of the Margonites, followers who received Abaddon’s magic. Might not be relevant, but these Margonites did survive through the Domain of Torment for hundreds of years despite having absorbed the energies to the point of becoming demons. Though, that could be another adaptation of human ascension. Might also not be related, but whatever.
Different things that use the same term. Take note that “chosen of Abaddon” is lowercase. This is just a case of ArenaNet using a common word as a title for a unique thing – as opposed to using “in the ancient fictional tongue” technique that would result in them being called, idk, The Kosan.
Theory adaptation: Mursaat and Enchanted both stem from the common ancestor of Humanity in the same way that Margonites and Exalted do. The processes may have been different, but they both “Ascended” from their mortal forms via magic.
Enchanted, Margonites, and Exalted are not fleshy anymore. They’re all ethereal.
Furthermore, that doesn’t explain the physical differences between mursaat and humans.
Some are saying that Mursaat are Tyrian natives, but I see no such text specifying that, only that they predate humanity coming over [correct me if I’m wrong] so no hole so far. Forgotten had created Enchanted [the empty moving armor] so it is likely that they are adapted from Exalted, or possibly the first attempt at Exalted.
Technically not wrong, but technically not right either. There’s nothing that specifically says “they were born on Tyria” but if they weren’t then chances are that such would be brought up because it’s rather significant – just like how it’s mentioned the Forgotten are not native to Tyria, or humans are not.
If we work on the premise that mursaat are not native to Tyria, then we might as well go and presume all races aren’t. Until told otherwise, it’s safer to assume that biologically different races are not non-natives.
The physical difference between Mursaat and Humans can come down to how Margonites and Exalted are pretty different from Humans despite being related. Note, I am not saying that Mursaat are human anymore, just that they were human at some point in their history, same as Exalted and Margonites.
The idea of “Chosen” can be argued one way or the other, it’s all a matter of interpreting the Mantle’s actions, which is tricky. If all they were looking for with the Eye of Janthir is the potential, we could call those with the potential to gain True Sight “Chosen” for the sake of argument.
As for my bringing up the Margonites, I just thought it interesting how mere humans could take in the energy in the Domain of Torment to the extent of becoming such powerful demons, and then their own attempts at ascension.
To the point that there’s nothing explicitly saying that the Mursaat are foreign to Tyria, I’d say that’s true. However they are the only ones that have the capability to travel through the Mists except, perhaps, the Human Gods and possibly the Forgotten, though the latter has never been witnessed to and actually predate the mythology stating that they had come from the Mists so it is questionable. Still, the Forgotten are shown to have a connection to the Human Gods for whatever reason, meaning the connection between these two mist travelers is strong… Sorry, that was a ramble. Basically nothing saying for or against on the Mursaat’s origin, but the fact that they have the capability, more than any other race, to travel the Mists puts their origins in suspect.