Guild Wars 2

All the infos that I’ve used are found among the various interviews to the game directors and in the wiki. The tone is theoretical where stating a theory.

The Elder Dragons:
Once in the Eternal Alchemy, we finally could look at the cosmic magic that belongs to Tyria and the forces who act on it as a whole. Each dragon awakens to consume magic avoiding the planet to collapse under its own weight. Abundance of magic would destabilize the ecosystem and the cosmic order, so the dragons need to consume magical energy to avoid the collapse. But, as we know, energy can be transformed, not destroyed, so, since we know that each dragon feeds on the magic, in doing so they have to use it, otherwise they would probably collapse too, like a person that eats a lot of calories and need to spend them on exercises or things to avoid dying from fatigue. They then convert this energy to be spent in the generation of creatures or magical phenomena, that are going to influence the ecosystem of the planet. Each dragon, also, deals with a specific aspect of the existence, so each aspect is dealt with and taken care of. Those aspects are:
- Primordus: fire and erupting forces, the spark that makes everything burst in power. The opposite of Jormag.
- Jormag: ice and glacial froces, that stop movement and slow energy in a quiet calmness. The opposite of Primordus.
- Bubbles: water and the inferior realm of the abyss and the deep profundities of the ocean. The opposite of Kralkattorik.
- Kralkattorik: air (lightning is the symbol of air in the GW universe), thunders and storms, everything that belongs to the superior realm of the sky. It is the opposite of Bubbles.
- Zaithan: decay and forces that consume and make things rot and die. The opposite of Moldremoth.
- Moldremoth: life and forces that make things grow and bloom. The opposite of Zaithan.
The dragons are not evil, and they DON’T WANT to destroy the world. It has already been stated that they simply are needed to stabilize the level of magic of Tyria when it grows too strong. They awake when the magic grows stronger, then they consume that magikittenil it returns to acceptable levels, then they go back to sleep again until next time.
But the dragons are still smart, they have intelligence, they are after all the individual manifestation of the kind of magic that they embody and control, so they can probably be reasoned with, although they would never waste time on some minor living beings as the races, and they would never stop from doing what they are doing. The proof is Kralkatorrik, that once awakened, went after Glint, his champion, to kill her, feeling that his grasp on her mind was no more, because she was freed by the Forgottens. The same is probably true for Mordremoth and the Pale Tree, as you will see upon reading.

The Pale Tree:
The seed that will give birth to the Pale Tree was found by a human named Ronan in a cave guarded by plant-like creatures, and was subsequently nurtured by Ventari and Ronan. It is possible that the centaur probably guessed somehow the potential of the seed, so maybe among the true reasons of the Ventari Tablet there is also the concern to give a direction to these creatures that were going to be born. Even if this last point is not quite true, the effect doesn’t change, we know for sure that the Ventari Tablet has given guidance and ethics to the sylvaris. In the cave there were other seeds though, probably of other pale trees, as it is stated that there are other trees in the world. The reason they were stored there it’s probably caused by the fact that Mordremoth, after consuming magic during a cycle, commands or stores the seeds in a secure place, guarded by its minions, to prepare for the next awakening.
The Pale Tree then grows, nurtured by the magic of Tyria, and begins to generate creatures. It doesn’t necessarily create human-like sylvaris; it is plausible that it did so only because it used human bodies as a model on which to mold its offspring, since it was planted on the grave of Ronan’s family. If this is correct, we can theorize that Pale Trees are actually the “molding facilities” or “headquarters” that Mordremoth uses to create and spread its minions. A possible proof is that we have other kind of animals, like wolves, among the plant monsters of Mordremoth, probably generated by another tree(s) planted in other regions of Tyria by the dragon or its minions, or even directly by some kind of tree growing on the back of the dragon, so by the dragon itself.
This means that sylvaris were meant to be dragon minions, and in fact they are, but since Ventari imposed its wise consciousness through the tablet, with its commandments acting as an ethical and moral code, upon the pale tree we already know in the Grove, and helped by the fact that once stolen by Ronan from the cave, the seed left the immediate influence of the dragon, the tree itself “felt” and grew with a new direction, away from the influence of Mordremoth, its creator. Pretty much in a similar way like Glint was freed by the Forgottens from Kralkattorik.
The Avatar of the Pale Tree is simply a way to manifest the consciusness of the Pale Tree itself, that is a living being and a dragon champion like Glint was.
The reason sylvari can’t be influenced by another dragon’s magic is obvious: they are already the offspring of the nature dragon, and each dragon cannot influence the minions or even the magic of another dragon, because each dragon doesn’t have control over a kind of magic that they don’t embody.
So probably the specific way Mordremoth acts to consume magic is: the minions plant the seed when it’s time because they are instructed to do so, probably on a ley line or near a strong source of Tyria’s magic because the tree needs magic to grow —> the tree then starts to grow and to generate minions: if there are models it uses them as a mold, otherwise it probably generates general plant monsters --> the first samplings are the strongest ones and have the duty to lead the others, something reflected in the sylvari culture by the Firstborns —> each experience the dragon minions feel is registered by the pale tree and helps to develop minions that are much suited for the task, according with the fact that the world of Tyria can naturally change (climate, geography, etc.) between one awakening and the other, so the dragon and its minions must always know the best way to fulfill their task --> the dragon shares a link between himself and all its minions using the pale tree as antennas to communicate with the offspring, so they don’t actually destroy the world, and can always stop them if they are consuming too much magic —> once its task is fulfilled, the pale tree is no longer necessary, so it must be destroyed, probably by letting it rot --> the dragon goes to sleep and prepares the seeds for the next awakening, stores them somewhere safe, and awaits.
Right now we see that Mordremoth is using its vines to suck magic, but it is probably a process that he would use anyway together with the spread of the pale trees, or probably now it can only use this way because most of its pale tress were unavailable. That’s why in the upcoming trailer for the Dragon’s Reach part 2 and in the Eternal Alchemy we saw the Pale Tree in danger attacked by Mordrmeoth: the dragon is claiming what was stolen from him, because unlike Zaithan, it’s missing most of its forces, the sylvari.

The Nightmare Court:
We can then look at the Nightmare Court with another perspective: they are not just sylvari who oppose the Ventari teachings, but they are sylvari who somehow feel that the teachings of Ventari on them aren’t quite right, and therefore they are trying to return to their true nature by strengthening the nightmare inside the dream. This is already stated, but the new perspective suggests that the Nightmare Court is a tentative from the sylvari to return to the righteous purpose for which they were born: aiding Mordremoth in getting magic. It is unknown if the nightmare court is acting like this on purpose or if it just feels a deep and wilder connection to some obscure entity that is the nightmare in the dream, without knowing it to be Mordremoth. Maybe the second, since it seems that sylvari are not entirely aware of the presence of the dragon’s lingering consciousness inside the pale tree and the dream, thinking of it as just a nightmare that must be destroyed. Or maybe the nightmare court knows about the dragon’s presence, but only the top leaders are aware of this, leaving the submitted unaware to easily control them, but inciting everyone through Dark Hunts to disturb the pale tree and weakening it to let the dragon’s essence take control again, as it should be.
Now let’s look at this quote from the wiki: “Vorpp, the Arcane Council’s point person, noted that the only things Ceara could have encountered in the isolation tank were the things that she had brought in with her, concluding that she had been exposed to a part of her psyche that had previously been walled off—perhaps for her own protection. Vorpp also admitted, however, that a far more extensive study of the Dream of Dreams would have to take place before any more detailed conclusions could be drawn.”
So, as pointed before, the Dream every sylvari player must face at the start is indeed an internal battle between the unconscious side of the sylvari that is still linked to Mordremoth, symbolized by the forest dragon we fight, and the conscious side, which are us the players.
Maybe the dragon is not giving much attention to the Nightmare Court because it can’t influence them. The Nightmare Court still was born from the pale tree, and responds directly to the Pale tree alone. Also the Court haven’t abandoned the tree’s dream, but only embraced the darkest part of it, the part linked to the will and consciousness of the dragon. It means that the dragon cannot control or influence them, because they are still linked to the pale tree, and the tree itself is screening all the sylvari born from her from the dragon’s influence.

Scarlet:
What was Scarlet’s plan, and why she did what she did? Well, once in the Eternal Alchemy, she saw that in the world there are 6 principles or forces that act on the world of Tyria, and these forces are balanced in a harmony that acts according to its own rules and thus must be preserved. Even if an elder dragon is defeated, its energy is not destroyed, but remains in the world, temporally without control, at least until the same elder dragon recovers, takes again control over the energy it embodies, and the same cycle repeats itself. This is the case with Tequatl, one of the champions of Zaithan, which without its leader received a boost thanks to the missing control of the dragon over the undead magic.
Scarlet understood this and beyond: she learned about the flow of magic that belongs to Tyria, and researched how this magic works in living beings and also on the planet. While in the Eternal Alchemy, she then entered in contact with the pattern of the entire cosmos of Tyria, and how the dragon act in accord with this magic, and here started the troubles. By looking at the Alchemy, one being cannot hope to remain untouched, it’s like pretending to “stare into the abyss and it stared back at me”.
Scarlet entered the deep profundity of the alchemy, but there an entity found her and corrupted her. This entity is unknown, but speculation advices that it was probably Mordremoth.
If we want to consider the entity in Scarlet’s mind as Mordremoth, we could say that it probably recognized and tracked the presence of one of its offspring in the alchemy, trying to “reprogram” her to her original function, which is aiding the elder dragon, taking advantage of the fact that Ceara was away from the pale tree. We entered the alchemy too, but in the case of other races, we are no minions, nor linked to dragon energy in any way, plus the machine was already been modified by Scarlet to shield further minds from being infected by this energies in the alchemy, thus limiting the knowledge and the vision that one could have. We won’t have any chance to get corrupted by dragon energy directly upon entering the machine, unless one wanted to modify the machine again. That’s why even other sylvari players can’t get corrupted while inside (apart from already have won their battle against the unconscious side of Mordremoth). She then localized the ley line that was on the same route of the dragon, guided by this voice in her head, and disturbed it, amplifying the power eruption and probably finally giving the dragon the boost of energy it needed to start spreading all over Tyria (this means that the dragon may have been already awake, but lying to recover energy from the sleep).
Mordremoth probably knew that something wasn’t quite right in the world. Since elder dragons are aware of each other’s existence, he probably felt that Zaithan was no more in charge, and so, as its righteous opposite, Mordry needed to be fully awakened to counterbalance the death energy with life energy. Scarlet in the end wasn’t so evil: she was simply fulfilling the true task that each sylvari is supposed to perform.
The Soundless:
Those sylvari are the most vulnerable right now. Ceara could be reached because she carelessly went into the Eternal Alchemy, exposing her consciousness in doing so, but Aerin was a Soundless, so he left the influence of the Pale Tree and her protection from the dragon, and infact acted like Ceara did when she started to not know anymore who she was.

The Secret:
Why do you think something like this can’t be told and must be kept secret? Because the Tree itself can’t let its children to know that they were supposed to be the servants of the dragon, otherwise it would be chaos. Sylvari would start to break psychologically, not knowing what their true purpose in life is anymore: they would feel like they were being told lies up until now, the conflict could lead to more sylvari acting like Scarlet, thus going against the world and the races to aid the dragon. The other races would immediately start to kill and hunt the sylvari, because they cannot be trusted anymore, they are not only dragon minions, but already inside the societies of the races.
The Avatar of the Pale Tree knows this, and keeps her children away from this truth, dealing with the nightmare inside the dream and focusing all her energies on dealing with it, to aid and avoid that her consciousness, and thus every sylvari linked to her, may fall to the dragon’s will. Glint, being a mother herself, tried to do the same with her offspring, saving it from the dragon.

That’s all. Let me know what do you think about it, and if there are othe rpoints unclear, let me know and I’ll clarify.

The Pale Tree also creates Fern hounds.

Glint wasn’t freed like that. The Forgotten had to undertake a special ritual.

If all you need to free a champion from an ED’s influence is love (or a stone tablet with words written on it), the game surely is taking a disney turn.

With us possibly working on the cultivated seed backpack with the next episode of the LS, I guessing that the Pale Tree(s) might be the product/offspring of a nurtured Mordy minion. They are still connected to Mordremoth, but they aren’t actual minions, since with each passing generation of vine/Pale Trees/whatever, that connection lessens by a degree.

I’m guessing this might be their way of trying to achieve a happy medium between the “Sylvari are/aren’t Mordremoth minions” crowds. They aren’t minions since they have free will and are generations removed from his corruption, but they are still susceptible to him by their past familial connection.

RedStar.4218:

The Pale Tree also creates Fern hounds.

Glint wasn’t freed like that. The Forgotten had to undertake a special ritual.

If all you need to free a champion from an ED’s influence is love (or a stone tablet with words written on it), the game surely is taking a disney turn.

Perhaps you need to look at Glint’s own account of how she was freed again. While the Forgotten ritual did play a part in it, but that wasn’t all.

I can hear the thoughts of creatures. I am an oracle. I heard their plots against my master, stopped them before they reached him, killed them in their tracks. But I also felt their agony, their loss. It grieved me. At first, for centuries, I defended my master. But I could hear his thoughts, too, and I knew that if he rose again, all good things would come to an end. ”

Compare to this little snippet (from right here http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/7826-sylvari-background/page__st__150#entry529646)

Many of the first memories within the Dream of Dreams, the first thoughts and conclusions, belong to the Pale Tree herself, and are expanded upon by her children as they are born and go out into the world. The Pale Tree is not a humanoid, but nevertheless, she has thoughts, feelings, and wisdom that she shares with unawakened sylvari as they Dream. She was there when Ventari and Ronan shared their hopes for the future, and watched as they fell to despair that their vision of a peaceful world would not be established within their lifetimes. She was there when Ventari lived out the last of his years alone, though she could not speak to comfort him. She was there when he carved his last words into the Tablet; after he died, she held the carved stone among her roots, Dreaming of its lessons and sharing them with her children who would one day awaken, and be sylvari.

Notice any resemblance?

Well… Dragons, actually, behave too aggressively for the kind of “saviors” who “just do not care” about the younger races. They are quite purposefully destroying anyone they can get. The impression that their primary purpose is to kill everyone, and only Then absorb the magic.

SpeedFiend.4521:

Perhaps you need to look at Glint’s own account of how she was freed again. While the Forgotten ritual did play a part in it, but that wasn’t all.

I can hear the thoughts of creatures. I am an oracle. I heard their plots against my master, stopped them before they reached him, killed them in their tracks. But I also felt their agony, their loss. It grieved me. At first, for centuries, I defended my master. But I could hear his thoughts, too, and I knew that if he rose again, all good things would come to an end. ”

Oh I know Glint’s story. But once again, that ritual did play a part. And the ritual worked for Glint and it also worked for a risen chicken.

Now I’m not an expert on chicken, but I doubt it was able to sense the pain of our PC before we cleansed it.

priory NPC’s say that we use rituals in magic because we don’t have a complete grasp of the natural laws of magic. So it is possible for the effects of the ritual to be completed somewhere else without the actual ritual.

I am utterly amazed that people keep the Mordremoth-Sylvari theory going. Look at all of the minions of Mordremoth. Does any of them look like sylvari (beyond Aerin and Scarlet because they’re corrupted sylvari, obviously)? Does any of them look like a white oak tree?

No. Mordremoth’s corruption is in the form of vines, or briars and thorns, and of flamboyant flowers. The closest connection in the minions we see and of sylvari comes from the husks and the more basic Overgrown seen in Brisban Wildlands and Cornered – which may just be corrupted Nightmare Court pets, and not original creations of Mordremoth.

Think about it. That Mysterious Vine backpiece is a red herring for this theory.

SpeedFiend.4521:

Perhaps you need to look at Glint’s own account of how she was freed again. While the Forgotten ritual did play a part in it, but that wasn’t all.

You don’t seem to understand what part the ritual played.

Dragon minions do not have free will. The creatures that champions and minions create do not have free will. They are a hive mind, fanatically devoted to their Elder Dragon. The former is seen amongst Destroyers, Icebrood, Branded, and Risen all – the latter is seen amongst Icebrood, Branded, and Risen. This is seen only due to the fact that we hadn’t really gotten much on Mordrem or the DSD’s minions – there’s equally no reason to presume otherwise beyond the Mysterious Vine, which is rather questionable still, since it’s just a seedling model.

The part that the Forgotten ritual played was that it gave Glint free will, so that she could choose whether or not to follow Kralkatorrik. Before the ritual, there was naught but following Kralkatorrik; afterwards, there was other options – there was choices, there was free will. Champions seem to have a degree of self-will, but they are still enslaved to the will of their dragon. Glint, having been given the option of not following Kralkatorrik, continued to do so until she slaughtered and heard enough minds to realize what she was doing was wrong.

Without that ritual, Glint wouldn’t have been able to free herself. Without her desire to leave, she would have actively and intentionally been serving Kralkatorrik. Both are needed, but the ritual is needed more because it created the chance for her to break free.

A mere stone cannot give that chance. Something more is needed.

With the Mysterious Vine, there’s a really strong chance that one of the ingredients included lessened Mordremoth’s will on it (if anything, I’d place my bets on the Foefire ghostly essence, given the similarities between the Foefire spell and Elder Dragon corruption and the ghost essence we got was from the Foefire cleansing’s effects). But the Pale Tree – thus far – has had no such thing.

Dustfinger.9510:

priory NPC’s say that we use rituals in magic because we don’t have a complete grasp of the natural laws of magic. So it is possible for the effects of the ritual to be completed somewhere else without the actual ritual.

Possible but the likelihood is immensely unlikely.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Dustfinger.9510:

priory NPC’s say that we use rituals in magic because we don’t have a complete grasp of the natural laws of magic. So it is possible for the effects of the ritual to be completed somewhere else without the actual ritual.

Possible but the likelihood is immensely unlikely.

Maybe, maybe not. We can’t really say how likely it is because we as players don’t even have an understanding of the magic either.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I am utterly amazed that people keep the Mordremoth-Sylvari theory going. Look at all of the minions of Mordremoth. Does any of them look like sylvari (beyond Aerin and Scarlet because they’re corrupted sylvari, obviously)? Does any of them look like a white oak tree?

No. Mordremoth’s corruption is in the form of vines, or briars and thorns, and of flamboyant flowers. The closest connection in the minions we see and of sylvari comes from the husks and the more basic Overgrown seen in Brisban Wildlands and Cornered – which may just be corrupted Nightmare Court pets, and not original creations of Mordremoth.

Think about it. That Mysterious Vine backpiece is a red herring for this theory.

The Pale Tree based them off of humans. So how they look can’t be counted as evidence either way. Now you may be right that there is no connection but the possibility is definitly there and it should be okay to speculate on that possibility.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Dustfinger.9510:

priory NPC’s say that we use rituals in magic because we don’t have a complete grasp of the natural laws of magic. So it is possible for the effects of the ritual to be completed somewhere else without the actual ritual.

Possible but the likelihood is immensely unlikely.

How? That would be the perfect answer. It would entail that there isn’t any one specific way to combat corruption. We know based on what the Pale Tree said, that strong will power can do it as well and considering Champions are believed to have some level of conscience; it’s not unlikely in the least.

Beings can imprint on objects and Ventari didn’t just inscribe words in stone to leave it behind. No, he stuck around – he stuck around for so long that either the Pale Tree dragged his spirit into The Dream or created a near perfect copy of him. By that logic, it is entirely likely that intervention plays a huge role nurturing the Tree.

I’d love to ask what the Forgotten learned but oh… Glint killed them after the ritual.

Ronin.7381:

I’d love to ask what the Forgotten learned but oh… Glint killed them after the ritual.

Oh wow, I thought I knew Glint’s story but that’s a part I’ve never heard before. Is that in the book ?

@OP: you portray the six dragons as opposing elements.

But I think your association of Kralkattorik with air is unfounded. There is nothing about the branded that recalls the element of air.

I don’t early think Mordremoth can be associated with life either. We have only seen plant minions, and life includes animals.

Zhaitain is not really the dragon of death. He doesn’t have domain over the underworld, or the dead. He merely uses a convenient supply of corpses as his minions.

Primordus is a dragon of Magma and Earth, rather than fire. I’m not sure his minions burn, so much as they are just very hot.

Can’t say much about the DSD. It could be a water dragon, but it could just be a dragon of aquatic things. It could have water elemental type minions, or it could have sea serpents. Or both, or something else. We just don’t know.

RedStar.4218:

Ronin.7381:

I’d love to ask what the Forgotten learned but oh… Glint killed them after the ritual.

Oh wow, I thought I knew Glint’s story but that’s a part I’ve never heard before. Is that in the book ?

“I can hear the thoughts of creatures. I am an oracle. I heard their plots against my master, stopped them before they reached him, killed them in their tracks. But I also felt their agony, their loss….”

I’ve said before that I don’t think the Pale Tree and the Sylvari are minions of Mordremoth in the same way that the Risen, the Branded and other corrupted creatures are minions of the Elder Dragons.

BUT… I do think the Pale Tree species may once have been a living race that was bred by Mordremoth to serve him. Not a direct dragon minion, although an Elder Dragon had a hand in their creation. This makes them more susceptible to his corruption, although over the millennia, the Pale Tree and their Sylvari children have evolved to the point where they have free will and self-determination, as long as they don’t get directly re-corrupted by Mordremoth.

It may also be that the Pale Tree’s species is simply a survivor of an ancient, giant race like the Lupicus from an earlier epoch when the Elder Dragons ruled. Being a plant creature, they are more susceptible to Mordremoth’s corruption due to his area of influence, but they are not directly linked to the Elder Dragon.

One thing I forgot before: why does everyone call Mordremoth the dragon of life?

If anything, I’d say that the closest Elder Dragon whom is “of life” would be Primordus. Jormag, Kralkatorrik, Zhaitan – they corrupt living or once-living beings. Mordremoth to me seems to create minions from his own body rather than corrupting existing organic matter (though I may be wrong and he, like Jormag, Kralkatorrik, and Zhaitan, corrupts organic matter). The deep sea dragon we don’t know. But Primordus breaths life into stone. He makes life from inanimate objects. Look at the various mythologies – from the Abrahamic faith to even Greek myths, we have God/a god breathing life into clay to make a human (or human-like being), very much like Primordus.

If any Elder Dragon is an “Elder Dragon of life”, it’d be Primordus, not Mordremoth who seems to enjoy strangling living beings.

Dustfinger.9510:

Maybe, maybe not. We can’t really say how likely it is because we as players don’t even have an understanding of the magic either.

Aside from a recent interview with the Spanish community explaining that dragon corruption and the magics countering such are so ancient that no one has a grasp of them, and then taking into consideration:

1. The chances of ambient magic holding an actual effect without being altered by individuals.
2. Every single type of effect that magic can have.

You end up getting a very small number for the possibility of ambient magic doing what the Forgotten ritual did (or something similar), simply due to the unknown of the first point, and the immensely high number of the second point.

Dustfinger.9510:

The Pale Tree based them off of humans. So how they look can’t be counted as evidence either way. Now you may be right that there is no connection but the possibility is definitly there and it should be okay to speculate on that possibility.

Ignore the humanoid appearance, and look at the fundamentals of their physiology, the downright appearance of the planty appearance, and they look nothing alike.

To claim that a Mordrem and a sylvari look alike, is to say a human and chimpanzee look alike, in all honesty.

Ronin.7381:

RedStar.4218:

Ronin.7381:

I’d love to ask what the Forgotten learned but oh… Glint killed them after the ritual.

Oh wow, I thought I knew Glint’s story but that’s a part I’ve never heard before. Is that in the book ?

“I can hear the thoughts of creatures. I am an oracle. I heard their plots against my master, stopped them before they reached him, killed them in their tracks. But I also felt their agony, their loss….”

Is there something before that quote ? Because that doesn’t mean that Glint killed the forgotten who performed the ritual on her. Especially when you consider there’s a book written about that particular ritual.

Kralkatorrik is indeed the dragon of air. You are looking only at the branded and the fact that the dragons create violet crystals, while you should look at the dragon itself and the concept behind it. The crystals are just the shape of a natural element that give matter to the dragon, but the power behind it is of tornadoes and hurricanes. Also don’t forget that in the branded areas, the matter is turned in crystals, but above those areas the sky is always in tempest. From the wiki: “When Kralkatorrik flew, a terrible storm of black clouds and lightning was formed around its body. […] It is often referred to as both a hurricane and sandstorm. It has the ability to create and even become the latter”. Also the concept art of the dragon shows him surrounded by lightning, and if you look at its Champion, the Shatterer, among the images you can find on the wiki, it is portrayed as flying from stormy clouds.
Also, as I’ve already said to prevent this kind of questions, Air in the Gw universe is symbolized and associated to storms and lightning. Even in the Elementalist you have the air element that is indicated by a lightning icon and most of the air skills are instead lightnings. Kralkatorrik is surrounded by lightnings because those flashes symbolize all the phenomena that are linked with air: hurricanes, tornadoes, various kinds of storms, dark clouds, and in a more general way, since the dragons are primordial forces, everything that is related to the domain of the sky and climate cataclysms.
Kralkatorrik passes by, leaving a trail of corruption depicted as a storm raging on the ground below
The Shatterer, Kralkatorrik’s Champion, descends on the ground in a trail of storming clouds

Life is a very large concept present in vary shades, in particular Mordremoth is associated with the form of life that blooms with vegetation, nature, plants, trees, flowers, soil and roots, everything that is arboreal. This is the particular domain of life that the dragon uses and commands. Unfortunately this concepts are not easy to understand for people who don’t have notions of pre-socratic philosophy, worldwide mythology, alchemy, astrology, and such. Mordremoth’s minions, sylvari included, are so adaptable and resemble so closely the nature of the planet Tyria, because the primordial aspect of life that Mordremoth embodies is similar to the force that makes natural cycles move on the planet. The difference is that the Elder Dragons have shown to embody a more destructive and uncontrollable version of this forces, but nonetheless they are similar.

Zhaitan: I’ve never said he is the dragon of death. I’ve always stated that he is the dragon who embodies the forces that make things rot and decay. Degeneration, both in body and soul, as shown by his minions, who were once priests or bishops, and now are just showing us the worst of their souls, condemned to become more and more evil, with a body that has become more and more rotten. While Mordremoth generates minions, literally by making them bloom since thy are plant-like minions, Zhaitan corrupts already existing life and makes it wither. So Zhaitan doesn’t represent death as a whole, but only the aspect of death that turns living force in decay.

Primordus “seem to prefer on creating minions solely of earth and fire, usually spawning them in pools of lava, and are created in mockery of living creatures”. Again, I didn’t stop to just fire, but referred to the aspect of life that is embodied in the initial spark that starts life. If you look at volcanoes, you don’t think of death, you think of life, because through eruptions, the planet prepares the soil for the vegetation to grow. The ashes and the lava have a strong fertilizing power in the environmental cycle. Primordus generates life like Mordremoth does, and it generates it by imitating already existing creatures, exactly like Mordry does, and subsequently like the Pale Tree does. It all comes down to this, Primordus and Mordremoth are both similar because they both embody life in a different way.

Also, look at the picture of the eternal alchemy. You have all thought there was something about the order in which the spheres glow, but have you thought about the disposition of those spheres?

Left: Primordus, Mordremoth and Bubbles
Right: Kralkatorrik, Zhaitan and Jormag

All of those on the left, with the exception of Bubbles (lack of info), create and generate their minions, and infact they embody different aspects of life (the initial spark of life, the vegetation that grows, the underwater life).
On the opposite, all the dragons on the right corrupt already existing living beings (Sons of Svanir and various kodans, Orrians and various fallen or dead characters, Branded).

In short, on the left we have forces who generate or give life, on the right we have forces who destroy or slow life. From our point of view, though, the dragons are all evil and all destructive because they are menacing our lives, but from the point of view of the dragons, this is not true. They care about the planet, not about the life on it, because they know that the life cycle would always continue. In fullfilling their duty to preserve a balance of magic between the world and its forces, it may happen to kill some living beings, but to them it’s not relevant.

Here is an example to make things clear. I’ll apply it to the real world.
Dragons awake milions of years ago when the dinosaurs are still alive, they perform their duty, then they go to sleep again. If some of the dinosaurs were killed during the process, it’s ok, cause the dragons don’t reason in terms of individuals but in terms of living beings, only maybe in terms of species. Centuries later it is time to wake up again, only that this time they find animals and humans as they are now. Would it make some difference to them? No. Dinosaurs are extinct, and now there are other living beings in their place? Life has continued? Yes. The cycle of the planet has continued? Yes. So let’s absorb again the magic of the planet and back to sleep.
Overall the dragons are necessary. They keep the entire planet and its balance intact, and I fear and predict that in defeating them, we are endangering the world.

Also, look again at each position the dragons occupy in the alchemy. They are indeed opposites, according to the forces each dragon embodies. If we want to believe that the orbs glowing up means the order in which each dragon awakened, then Mordremoth awakened way before than Zhaitan, but rested dormant because Zhaitan was acting on the world. When its direct opposite was defeated by us, the dragon then tried to take action, manipulated Scarlet (her minion) to give him the boost of magic it needed to gather its energy, and then acted on the world to balance the loss of Zhaitan.
But it is also possible that the order of glowing is not relevant, and it’s just an artistic expression, thus making this last point not necessary, but nonetheless the opposition of the elements would remain, and the alternation of the influences of the dragons strong as ever.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Aside from a recent interview with the Spanish community explaining that dragon corruption and the magics countering such are so ancient that no one has a grasp of them, and then taking into consideration:

1. The chances of ambient magic holding an actual effect without being altered by individuals.
2. Every single type of effect that magic can have.

You end up getting a very small number for the possibility of ambient magic doing what the Forgotten ritual did (or something similar), simply due to the unknown of the first point, and the immensely high number of the second point.

The logic here is flawed. What you’re doing is looking at all the possible outcomes and saying that it is unlikely that one exact instance can fulfill all criteria. That’s like saying the possibility of every detail of your own life happening in just such an order od events is so near impossible that your life most likely hasn’t even happened.

Instead, we would have to actually have a grasp on the magic ritual and have a near complete grasp on natural magic and how often it’s exact rules occur to know how likely it is that the one can imitate the other. Otherwise the near impossibility of human technology imitating the natural animal kingdom would mean we would almost never do it. But we do it all the time with things like scuba gear, body armor, and every other thing that isn’t compleltey original. (Of which there are few)

Ignore the humanoid appearance, and look at the fundamentals of their physiology, the downright appearance of the planty appearance, and they look nothing alike.

To claim that a Mordrem and a sylvari look alike, is to say a human and chimpanzee look alike, in all honesty.

That’s ironic that you would use the human/chimp example because there is actually a connection there.

“The closest connection in the minions we see and of sylvari comes from the husks and the more basic Overgrown seen in Brisban Wildlands and Cornered – which may just be corrupted Nightmare Court pets, and not original creations of Mordremoth.”

You’ve already pointed out similarities yourself. The only difference is you dismiss them by saying they MAY not be creations of Mordy. But that inherently means that they also may. That is even aside from the fact that corruption can drastically alter a being.

So if we look at how plants get corrupted we can look at the Nightmare Court as a base. They are definitely corrupted. If we see a corrupting dragons minions start looking real similar that may well be a clue. As I said, the possibility is there. It isn’t confirmed but you also can’t say that it isn’t a decent possibility.

Syrpharon.7491:

Also, look at the picture of the eternal alchemy. You have all thought there was something about the order in which the spheres glow, but have you thought about the disposition of those spheres?

Left: Primordus, Mordremoth and Bubbles
Right: Kralkatorrik, Zhaitan and Jormag

All of those on the left, with the exception of Bubbles (lack of info), create and generate their minions, and infact they embody different aspects of life (the initial spark of life, the vegetation that grows, the underwater life).
On the opposite, all the dragons on the right corrupt already existing living beings (Sons of Svanir and various kodans, Orrians and various fallen or dead characters, Branded).

Maybe it’s nit-picky but as far as we know, the Shatterer isn’t a baby dragon than Kralk corrupted. It’s something it created. And Primordus can corrupt living things, but doesn’t do it as often as Zhaitan (but since that wasn’t shown in the game it might have been written out).

You can create every combination you wish because we barely really know anything. That’s why I can’t wait for this whole Mordremoth kitten to be done with. And since the living story is a big checklist, maybe in 2 or 3 episodes we’ll be settled.

Syrpharon.7491:

Kralkatorrik is indeed the dragon of air. You are looking only at the branded and the fact that the dragons create violet crystals, while you should look at the dragon itself and the concept behind it. The crystals are just the shape of a natural element that give matter to the dragon, but the power behind it is of tornadoes and hurricanes.

False. We NEVER see tornadoes being linked to Kralkatorrik and a hurricane is only linked to Kralkatorrik in the metaphorical sense. In Edge of Destiny we see him use fire, lightning, creating crystals, and becoming a *sand*storm.

In an interview with GuildMag, Jeff Grubb related the Elder Dragons to the aspects of " elements, vegetation, water". (Source) – what’s interesting is the separation of water from elements, giving hint that “elements” differ from that of Primordus and Jormag. Kralkatorrik is seen – even in his minions just as much as him himself – using multiple elements (fire, earth, air). That is the best relation to Kralkatorrik if not earth/crystal itself.

If you try linking Kralkatorrik to air because he becomes a sandstorm and creates a storm when he flew, well, Jormag made a 4-year long blizzard when he awoke and a blizzard is just a bunch of air moving around quickly with snow. So clearly Jormag is also air!

Syrpharon.7491:

Life is a very large concept present in vary shades, in particular Mordremoth is associated with the form of life that blooms with vegetation, nature, plants, trees, flowers, soil and roots, everything that is arboreal. This is the particular domain of life that the dragon uses and commands. Unfortunately this concepts are not easy to understand for people who don’t have notions of pre-socratic philosophy, worldwide mythology, alchemy, astrology, and such. Mordremoth’s minions, sylvari included, are so adaptable and resemble so closely the nature of the planet Tyria, because the primordial aspect of life that Mordremoth embodies is similar to the force that makes natural cycles move on the planet. The difference is that the Elder Dragons have shown to embody a more destructive and uncontrollable version of this forces, but nonetheless they are similar.

The greatest fallacy is automatically linking sylvari to being Mordremoth’s minions. But I disagree. Being able to create life out of mere stone, or bringing life back to a dead body, is as much of “life” either more or equally as producing vegetation.

I think you’re trying to separate the Elder Dragons too much. To once more quote Jeff Grubb in the aforementioned interview:

“We’ve shown that from the early Eye of the North, and when we designed the Elder Dragons we were looking at them having specialties where they could corrupt more than just one type of substance. Some of them could affect life, some of them could affect inanimate objects, some of them could affect the elements, vegetation, water, you know they all had their some specialty but they also have some overlap […]”

Syrpharon.7491:

Also, look at the picture of the eternal alchemy. You have all thought there was something about the order in which the spheres glow, but have you thought about the disposition of those spheres?

Left: Primordus, Mordremoth and Bubbles
Right: Kralkatorrik, Zhaitan and Jormag

All of those on the left, with the exception of Bubbles (lack of info), create and generate their minions, and infact they embody different aspects of life (the initial spark of life, the vegetation that grows, the underwater life).
On the opposite, all the dragons on the right corrupt already existing living beings (Sons of Svanir and various kodans, Orrians and various fallen or dead characters, Branded).

Entirely false.

• The Shatterer, champion of Kralkatorrik, is not corrupted life. We also see the corrupted land becoming a sentient giant in Ghosts of Ascalon.
• The Dragonspawn, champion of Jormag, perhaps the Claws of Jormag too, is not corrupted life but a construct of bones, ice, and mist (minus the mist for the Claws).
• Zhaitan is known to corrupt the land and water itself, just as Jormag and Kralkatorrik are.
• Primordus can corrupt living beings – as explained in the interview I’ve linked to above – and the Imbued Grawl Shaman in the Volcanic Fractal may very well be such (the discussion of Primordus corrupting living beings came from asking if that creature who holds a Destroyer bow is a Destroyer, and the actions which lead to the Grawl’s transformation matches the description that the devs gave about encasing in stone and liquifying into lava).

So you have 3 dragons which do not conform to your ideals there. While they focus on corrupting their respective side of living or inorganic materials, they are far from restricted to such.

Dustfinger.9510:

The logic here is flawed. What you’re doing is looking at all the possible outcomes and saying that it is unlikely that one exact instance can fulfill all criteria. That’s like saying the possibility of every detail of your own life happening in just such an order od events is so near impossible that your life most likely hasn’t even happened.

Nah, what I’m saying is more of "the possibility of every detail of your own life happening in just such an order of events is so near impossible that even just one thing changing would alter that life into being a slightly different life which may or may not hold the same outcome.

Using the same sentence structure for the topic at hand:

“the possibility of every detail of natural magic happening in just such an order to result in the ritual’s effects is so near impossible that even just one thing changing would alter that magic into being a slightly different form of magic which may or may not hold the same outcome.”

Knowing how both work would certainly allow one to mimic it, which is what your comparison of scuba gear, body armor, etc. works, but for your comparison it would be more akin to humanity evolving to naturally have the things we’ve created stuff to function as (e.g., naturally evolving gills).

Dustfinger.9510:

That’s ironic that you would use the human/chimp example because there is actually a connection there.

In the same way that both Mordrem and sylvari are plants. That was the hidden message – which you apparently missed entirely. Let me try aiming lower:

“Yes, there is a connection, but that connection is no different from Destroyers and Embers.”

Dustfinger.9510:

You’ve already pointed out similarities yourself. The only difference is you dismiss them by saying they MAY not be creations of Mordy. But that inherently means that they also may. That is even aside from the fact that corruption can drastically alter a being.

Is a charr a minion of Kralkatorrik due to the existence of Branded charr? No.

Saying that the Overgrown Hounds and Husks may be minions of Mordremoth because they are corrupted Nightmare Hounds and Summoned Husks is no different than saying a branded charr may be a minion of Kralkatorrik because they’re corrupted charr.

Just like how a Nightmare Hound is not the same as a Sylvan Hound – because the Nightmare Hounds are twisted forms of the Sylvan Hounds.

Dustfinger.9510:

So if we look at how plants get corrupted we can look at the Nightmare Court as a base. They are definitely corrupted. If we see a corrupting dragons minions start looking real similar that may well be a clue. As I said, the possibility is there. It isn’t confirmed but you also can’t say that it isn’t a decent possibility.

The possibility of the Nightmare Court being Mordremoth’s corruption is not unlikely at this stage. However, that does not mean that all sylvari are Mordremoth’s minions – which is what I’m saying is unlikely.

It could always be the case that the Sylvari exist as humanoid plant creatures, Mordremoth holds some dominion over plants, so Mordremoth sees the Sylvari within his dominion. This could however be similar to Zaitan favoring corrupted humanoids over corrupted sharks, just because they are more capable and adaptable.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Nah, what I’m saying is more of "the possibility of every detail of your own life happening in just such an order of events is so near impossible that even just one thing changing would alter that life into being a slightly different life which may or may not hold the same outcome.

Using the same sentence structure for the topic at hand:

“the possibility of every detail of natural magic happening in just such an order to result in the ritual’s effects is so near impossible that even just one thing changing would alter that magic into being a slightly different form of magic which may or may not hold the same outcome.”

Knowing how both work would certainly allow one to mimic it, which is what your comparison of scuba gear, body armor, etc. works, but for your comparison it would be more akin to humanity evolving to naturally have the things we’ve created stuff to function as (e.g., naturally evolving gills).

The problem, of course, being that we don’t calculate probability based on the unknown infinities that can be applied to every situation otherwise nothing would be likely at all. We calculate probability based of finite knowns measured against other finite knowns. Bolded shows that the possibility of a good possibility even exists in this unknown comparison. Because the unkowns may well allow for multiple paths to the same outcome. If we knew that there was only one single way for it to happen then it could be unlikely, but there may be multiple natural ways with one of many key ingediant that just happens to have been fulfilled by the Pale Tree, or Ronin, or ventari or any combination of all. We have absolutely no idea.

In the same way that both Mordrem and sylvari are plants. That was the hidden message – which you apparently missed entirely. Let me try aiming lower:

“Yes, there is a connection, but that connection is no different from Destroyers and Embers.”

Ouch. You seem cranky. So. now that you’ve aimed lower, you demonstrate how you make suppositions and take it as fact. You have no idea if the connection is no different than destroyers and embers because there is no confirmation one way or another when it comes to the sylvari and mordy.

Is a charr a minion of Kralkatorrik due to the existence of Branded charr? No.

Saying that the Overgrown Hounds and Husks may be minions of Mordremoth because they are corrupted Nightmare Hounds and Summoned Husks is no different than saying a branded charr may be a minion of Kralkatorrik because they’re corrupted charr.

Just like how a Nightmare Hound is not the same as a Sylvan Hound – because the Nightmare Hounds are twisted forms of the Sylvan Hounds.

Charr are not confirmed corrupted like the nightmare court is so…. little different situation here.

The possibility of the Nightmare Court being Mordremoth’s corruption is not unlikely at this stage. However, that does not mean that all sylvari are Mordremoth’s minions – which is what I’m saying is unlikely.

I’m not even saying that all sylvari are mordremoths minions. What I am saying is that there may actually be some sort of connection between them/Pale Tree and mordy whether they are minions or not. Because we have absolutely no idea about their origins before Ronin found the seeds. Why you find that possibility so offensive is beyond me.

Dustfinger.9510:

The problem, of course, being that we don’t calculate probability based on the unknown infinities that can be applied to every situation otherwise nothing would be likely at all. We calculate probability based of finite knowns measured against other finite knowns. Bolded shows that the possibility of a good possibility even exists in this unknown comparison. Because the unkowns may well allow for multiple paths to the same outcome. If we knew that there was only one single way for it to happen then it could be unlikely, but there may be multiple natural ways with one of many key ingediant that just happens to have been fulfilled by the Pale Tree, or Ronin, or ventari or any combination of all. We have absolutely no idea.

I’m not talking about infinite unknowns.

I’m talking about finite unknowns. There’s a limited number of possible forms that magic can become – however, this limited number is incredibly high. That high – but finite – number makes the probability low.

Just look at all the skills of GW1 – both player and NPC-only – and then look at all the skills of GW2 – both player and NPC-only – and then all the massive magical disasters and all those magical devices. That’s the minimal number of possibilities for the form of magic. And that’s a huge amount still!

Dustfinger.9510:

Ouch. You seem cranky. So. now that you’ve aimed lower, you demonstrate how you make suppositions and take it as fact. You have no idea if the connection is no different than destroyers and embers because there is no confirmation one way or another when it comes to the sylvari and mordy.

Since you want to nitpick every single syllable of my posts and take them as absolute literal with no implied words (a common practice in English), let me try once more:

The connection by all supporting evidences is no different than the connection between destroyer and ember.

Dustfinger.9510:

Charr are not confirmed corrupted like the nightmare court is so…. little different situation here.

Flame Legion shaman who underwent the self-mutilating ritual to become fire-imbued and a Primordus-corrupted charr, then, if you must be so kitten ed literal.

The Nightmare Court are called twisted and corrupted, but nothing really says this “corruption” is the same kind of corruption as Elder Dragon corruption and twisting. Just like how Abaddon’s “corruption” of the Margonites is in no way made related.

Dustfinger.9510:

I’m not even saying that all sylvari are mordremoths minions. What I am saying is that there may actually be some sort of connection between them/Pale Tree and mordy whether they are minions or not. Because we have absolutely no idea about their origins before Ronin found the seeds. Why you find that possibility so offensive is beyond me.

Well, why are you disagreeing with me in the first place?

Again, you’re taking my posts at a nitpickery literal interpretation it seems, as I was talking about the theory that the OP made – the dead horse theory of sylvari being Mordremoth’s MINIONS.

I wasn’t talking about no connection at all. Though I think that connection is about as much as there’d be if Primordus went around looking for Embers and Earth Elementals to corrupt. The sylvari seem to be primary target for the Elder Dragon, and little more. Maybe Mordremoth recognizes them as a threat, or maybe he knows that they’re made as an anti-Elder Dragon weapon, or maybe because they’re just plants and we’ll be seeing him going on a crusade to corrupt Druids and standard treants next.

Trying to pigeonhole dragons, especially into some elemental framework is not going to work.

Clearly they share some aspects, and they overlap in many ways. If you try and force everything into a small set of categories, then you end up with wrong headed theories like the dragons and gods matching up 1:1.

I think if you look at the differences between Dragon Champions of the same Elder dragon like Tequatl vs Blightghast, or Glint vs The Shatterer, you can see that things are more subtle and varied.

I still think the dragons’ awakening was caused by the mortals using their magic to change the world.

The Asura was harnessing Primordus’ energy as the battery of their gate, this might triggered its awakening.

The Searing might used the energy from Kralkatorrik. You can see a crystal falling from the sky.

I really suspect the spell that caused the Cataclysm, also used Zhaitan’s energy, that could explain why Vizier Khilbron was turned into the Lich Lord, and so many people became his undead minions.

That was what we knew, there might be more examples.

The only odd one was Jormag, it seems to feed on mind rather than magic, it was empowering from its worshipers and was the only one who has a mortal cult group. Its champion also corrupt mind.

We’ve gotten confirmation that the Cataclysm affected Zhaitan in no way, shape, or form.

The Elder Dragons wake on cycles. Drawing power from them may slow their awakening since they apparently need to be fed some magic before awakening, but it wouldn’t cause their stirring.

Jormag doesn’t feed on minds but the magic individuals have – he communicates and corrupts telepathically.

I also find it a stretch that the Searing Cauldron was tapping into Kralkatorrik’s energy and merely look at the damage of the crystals to be coincidence. Remember, back when Prophecies was out there wasn’t any indication of Elder Dragons – this didn’t become a thing until EoTN and they wanted a segway into GW2.

Actually, there’s a decent indication that they decided to tie those crystals to Kralkatorrik. In the Priory path for invading Orr, there is mention of the Flame Legion enchanting the cauldrons and in both that instance, the event in Iron Marches, and with the Searing Effigy the crystals are purple (rather than the GW1 bluish – which were very akin to Glint’s coloring).

If there is no connection, then ArenaNet certainly wants to make it seem like there is one. And you can’t say there isn’t one because Elder Dragons weren’t a thing during Prophecies, for why I point to Glint.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

We’ve gotten confirmation that the Cataclysm affected Zhaitan in no way, shape, or form.

But it doesn’t mean Zhaitan couldn’t have affected the Cataclysm, Orr, or the aftermath in any way, shape, or form.

Also, it still had to have at least some effect on him. Even if his tomb was left untouched and even the tremors couldn’t reach him, he still found himself under both sea and land instead of just land when he woke.

Konig Des Todes.2086

I’m not talking about infinite unknowns.

I’m talking about finite unknowns. There’s a limited number of possible forms that magic can become – however, this limited number is incredibly high. That high – but finite – number makes the probability low.

Just look at all the skills of GW1 – both player and NPC-only – and then look at all the skills of GW2 – both player and NPC-only – and then all the massive magical disasters and all those magical devices. That’s the minimal number of possibilities for the form of magic. And that’s a huge amount still!

Right. And what’s the other finite known that we have to measure that first finite known against? Because one relatively large amount of anything doesn’t mean low possibility if the other finite known is also relatively high. That’s how probability is measured.

Since you want to nitpick every single syllable of my posts and take them as absolute literal with no implied words (a common practice in English), let me try once more:

The connection by all supporting evidences is no different than the connection between destroyer and ember.

If we can’t take your posts at the face value they are given, they greatly lose relevance because you can always say something and anything else was implied.

Flame Legion shaman who underwent the self-mutilating ritual to become fire-imbued and a Primordus-corrupted charr, then, if you must be so kitten ed literal.

Great. How does this relate to what we know of the sylvari? Everything I’m talking about relates to the topic at hand.

The Nightmare Court are called twisted and corrupted, but nothing really says this “corruption” is the same kind of corruption as Elder Dragon corruption and twisting. Just like how Abaddon’s “corruption” of the Margonites is in no way made related.

Exactlly my point. We don’t know. I’m not the one taking assumptions as fact here. I’m simply acknowledging actual possibilities.

Well, why are you disagreeing with me in the first place?

Again, you’re taking my posts at a nitpickery literal interpretation it seems, as I was talking about the theory that the OP made – the dead horse theory of sylvari being Mordremoth’s MINIONS.

I wasn’t talking about no connection at all. Though I think that connection is about as much as there’d be if Primordus went around looking for Embers and Earth Elementals to corrupt. The sylvari seem to be primary target for the Elder Dragon, and little more. Maybe Mordremoth recognizes them as a threat, or maybe he knows that they’re made as an anti-Elder Dragon weapon, or maybe because they’re just plants and we’ll be seeing him going on a crusade to corrupt Druids and standard treants next.

I’m disagreeing with your response to my post. Nothing else.

Jeff Grubb: Actually, no. When the humans built Orr, they knew it for an extremely magical place but did not know the origin of that magic. (The asura made a similar mistake with their Central Transfer Chamber, which they parked right over Primordus.) If the human gods knew of what slumbered beneath the world, they said nothing. The Tome of Rubicon, from among the dwarves, held some legends that came down of their battle with the Great Destroyer, which was merely a herald of Primordus.

So the humans also harnessed Zhaitan’s power.

Thalador.4218:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

We’ve gotten confirmation that the Cataclysm affected Zhaitan in no way, shape, or form.

But it doesn’t mean Zhaitan couldn’t have affected the Cataclysm, Orr, or the aftermath in any way, shape, or form.

Also, it still had to have at least some effect on him. Even if his tomb was left untouched and even the tremors couldn’t reach him, he still found himself under both sea and land instead of just land when he woke.

Actually, not really. If Zhaitan affected the Cataclysm in his sleep, then the Cataclysm affected him in some way to trigger Zhaitan affecting it. But the way that Jeff Grubb once stated the statement that the Cataclysm didn’t affect Zhaitan heavily implied that despite common belief, the Cataclysm was not the source for the Orrian undead of GW1 (“mere wrinkles in the crust” being his way of describing the Cataclysm).

Dustfinger.9510:

If we can’t take your posts at the face value they are given, they greatly lose relevance because you can always say something and anything else was implied.

I think you’ve seen my posts long enough to know my stance on the matter and, knowing that, can infer when I have a few implied phrases which are a common English usage.

Dustfinger.9510:

Flame Legion shaman who underwent the self-mutilating ritual to become fire-imbued and a Primordus-corrupted charr, then, if you must be so kitten ed literal.

Great. How does this relate to what we know of the sylvari? Everything I’m talking about relates to the topic at hand.

The Nightmare Court are called twisted and corrupted, but nothing really says this “corruption” is the same kind of corruption as Elder Dragon corruption and twisting. Just like how Abaddon’s “corruption” of the Margonites is in no way made related.

Exactlly my point. We don’t know. I’m not the one taking assumptions as fact here. I’m simply acknowledging actual possibilities.

I’m not taking assumptions as facts either, but apparently this discussion has gone on so long that you’ve forgotten what it was originally about – despite it not being that long at all. Let me try again:

Just because the Nightmare Court is altered and twisted, does not make them minions of Mordremoth; it can be little different than situations like Flame Legion shamans whom are altered physically and seemingly mentally. To outright claim that the Nightmare Court are minions of Mordremoth – as many do – is like outright claiming that the Flame Legion shamans are minions of Primordus (just as outright claiming the sylvari as a whole are minions of Mordremoth are like saying Embers are minions of Primordus).

In short, the common comparison is:
Nightmare Court is to Mordremoth as Sons of Svanir are to Jormag.

However, for all we can tell, the actual comparison is no different from:
Nightmare Court is to Mordremoth as Flame Legion are to Primordus.

That is to say, there are alterations that occur in the group, but they may or may not be tied to an Elder Dragon.

I make nor take no assumption – I am merely denying the assumptions made by others of a sure-fire Mordremoth connection.

Dustfinger.9510:

I’m disagreeing with your response to my post. Nothing else.

Yet my response to your post had nothing to do with what the topic has delved into – the Nightmare Court being minions or not – but instead was an extrapolation of pointing out that claiming all sylvari to be Mordrem is foolhardy, and I cited appearance as an example (which, in all honesty, can be extended to the Nightmare Court as well).

Slowpokeking.8720:

Jeff Grubb: Actually, no. When the humans built Orr, they knew it for an extremely magical place but did not know the origin of that magic. (The asura made a similar mistake with their Central Transfer Chamber, which they parked right over Primordus.) If the human gods knew of what slumbered beneath the world, they said nothing. The Tome of Rubicon, from among the dwarves, held some legends that came down of their battle with the Great Destroyer, which was merely a herald of Primordus.

So the humans also harnessed Zhaitan’s power.

Actually, that statement says nothing about harnessing Zhaitan’s power. Despite this, however, the Six Gods – not the humans – did harness some of it, and such has been known since release: the Six Gods siphoned a bit of power to strengthen the Bloodstones when they divided them. Over 1,000 years before the Cataclysm or their waking.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

If there is no connection, then ArenaNet certainly wants to make it seem like there is one. And you can’t say there isn’t one because Elder Dragons weren’t a thing during Prophecies, for why I point to Glint.

I do think Prophecies intended for something different. She was hiding from something yes but she was, as far as we knew, the last of living dragons. There were of course plenty of theories as to who or what was hunting her. The Elder Dragons didn’t become a thing until they were shoehorned in EoTN as a segway to GW2. For example, we’ve already come to the conclusion that the Bloodstones were changed somewhat to promote GW2 lore. Based on how lousy EoTN was, I do think EDs didn’t become a concept until they scrapped GW: Utopia and decided they wanted a legitimate sequel.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Actually, that statement says nothing about harnessing Zhaitan’s power. Despite this, however, the Six Gods – not the humans – did harness some of it, and such has been known since release: the Six Gods siphoned a bit of power to strengthen the Bloodstones when they divided them. Over 1,000 years before the Cataclysm or their waking.

They surely were going to use it otherwise they would not have built the city on it, it also might be the reason why the Cataclysm was so powerful, it was able to kill everyone of both sides, sink a continent and turn a lot of people into undead. if Zhaitan’s power was not used, why did they become undead?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Thalador.4218:

But it doesn’t mean Zhaitan couldn’t have affected the Cataclysm, Orr, or the aftermath in any way, shape, or form.

Also, it still had to have at least some effect on him. Even if his tomb was left untouched and even the tremors couldn’t reach him, he still found himself under both sea and land instead of just land when he woke.

Actually, not really. If Zhaitan affected the Cataclysm in his sleep, then the Cataclysm affected him in some way to trigger Zhaitan affecting it. But the way that Jeff Grubb once stated the statement that the Cataclysm didn’t affect Zhaitan heavily implied that despite common belief, the Cataclysm was not the source for the Orrian undead of GW1 (“mere wrinkles in the crust” being his way of describing the Cataclysm).

Do you really want to believe that a catastrophic event that sinks an entire peninsula/island affected Zhaitan in no way at all? First of all, he sank with said place to the bottom of the sea… that’s quite the effect. If I was asleep and suddenly started moving downwards with alarming speed, I’d sure as hell react in some way, shape, or form, even if I’m a deep sleeper and would still not fully wake with a start. Let’s say I’d change pose and start snoring. Now, my snore wouldn’t corrupt half the world (it may cause some discomfort to the others around — especially if I ate something that was flavored heavily with onion before going to sleep), but Zhaitan, even if he’s not actively using his corruption, is ought to release/exude/exhale consumed magic in higher concentrations.

And that is just one possibility. What if he stirred into half-wakefulness like when we can’t decide what is dream and what is reality, and the reality of sinking into the darkness of the sea (where one of his kin might lie in wait) became part of his dream, eliciting a shocked reaction in primal fear, thus releasing semi-actively a breath of corrupted magic. Or as I said in another thread; a tube of infusion was shoved into his throat:

On the other hand, Zhaitan could rise 100 years earlier. Why? I hate myself for this, but… ley lines! The Cataclysm affected him in no way, but we see Vizier Khilbron and the Lost Scrolls coated in tealish blue light as he spells the forbidden words. At the same time, Vialee (a former Orrian trapped in the Realm of Torment) spoke of a blinding light enveloping everything before the peninsula sank. Now I’m not sure what the Scrolls did exactly, but I strongly believe that the resulting geological calamity affected the ley line hub/system beneath Orr (and we know for a fact that the Source of Orr was such a powerful place of magic that it beckoned the human gods from across the Mists to come to Tyria), which could’ve easily resulted in a small stream being diverted straight to Zhaitan’s maw… he was sipping magic in coma, bringing his rise forth by a “meager” 100 years.

… which could’ve resulted in a corrupted streamlet of magic that Khilbron utilized to further his powers and raise an army. (Or it was what had made Khilbron into a lich with Zhaitan-like horns and draconic wings in the first place.)

The problem is that you’re taking Grubb’s words in a 100% literal way. What I think he meant there was that the Cataclysm neither hurt, nor woke (fully), nor killed Zhaitan (early on some of us — e.g. me — theorized that the dragon died in the Cataclysm and became undead afterwards). But it still affected him, given he sank with Orr, and through that he may have affected either the Cataclysm itself, or its aftermath.

Also, you seem to be forgetting just how malleable pre-release lore… especially one that is not in the game in any way, shape, or form.

Slowpokeking.8720:

They surely were going to use it otherwise they would not have built the city on it, it also might be the reason why the Cataclysm was so powerful, it was able to kill everyone of both sides, sink a continent and turn a lot of people into undead. if Zhaitan’s power was not used, why did they become undead?

Keep in mind that there was more than just Zhaitan’s power in the lands of Orr (The Artesian Waters) which were far stronger than Zhaitan’s power (it was the Artesian Waters that drew the Six Gods to the world of Tyria), and that while Elder Dragons sleep they radiate magic thus no longer making it “their” power.

Undead and risen are not the same thing, by the way, and not all undead come from Zhaitan’s power. The Cataclysm is said to have no effect on Zhaitan, so why would it be Zhaitan’s power that made the non-fanatic-to-Zhaitan undead? Hell, we have nothing to actually say the Cataclysm made those undead, for all we know Khilbron went by one-by-one during the course of a year to create those undead himself.

Thalador.4218:

Do you really want to believe that a catastrophic event that sinks an entire peninsula/island affected Zhaitan in no way at all? First of all, he sank with said place to the bottom of the sea… that’s quite the effect.

It really depends on what the Cataclysm’s spell actually did, really, and where Zhaitan’s lair was (on an elevation scale) and how much they can be unaffected. But hell, we have dragons rising from underground and while incased in stone – it wouldn’t be surprising to me if Elder Dragons are effectively dead while “hibernating” since they apparently can’t be suffocated.

Which… kind of would explain why none of the elder races or Glint bothered to try to kill Kralkatorrik and the others while they slept.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Keep in mind that there was more than just Zhaitan’s power in the lands of Orr (The Artesian Waters) which were far stronger than Zhaitan’s power (it was the Artesian Waters that drew the Six Gods to the world of Tyria), and that while Elder Dragons sleep they radiate magic thus no longer making it “their” power.

Undead and risen are not the same thing, by the way, and not all undead come from Zhaitan’s power. The Cataclysm is said to have no effect on Zhaitan, so why would it be Zhaitan’s power that made the non-fanatic-to-Zhaitan undead? Hell, we have nothing to actually say the Cataclysm made those undead, for all we know Khilbron went by one-by-one during the course of a year to create those undead himself.

The Artesian Waters have nothing to do with undead before it was corrupted by Zhaitan.

Other than Zhaitan, there is no such example of so many undead burst out quickly in Tyria. And we know Khilbron was transformed by the event. The undead army mostly were not created by him.

All that remains in the wreckage of Orr are the wandering dead—those souls unable to rest in the shadow of this great disaster.

They are not Risen because they were not created by Zhaitan. Just like the Asura didn’t create destroyers using Primordus’ power, or the Searing is very different than the Dragonbrand’s effect. It doesn’t work exactly the same way.

I never said the Artesian Waters had anything to do with undead. I said that most of Orr’s magic comes from the Artesian Waters. You are – without support – attaching the undead controlled by Khilbron to the magic of Orr, it seems.

And the undead in gw1 didn’t show up “quickly” but over the full coarse if a year. 360 days is long enough to change thousands into undead if you change 3 or more corpses a day. And we actually don’t know Khilbron was changed by that event. We don’t know when or how he became a loch and there is in fact evidence to say that he was around and with powerful necromancy during King Zoran’s (Reza’s father) reign. That, or there we’re multiple powerful corrupt (politically speaking) necromancer viziers in order. Said evidence comes from GW1’s dungeon, Shards of Orr.

It’s not just about the time, it’s not like the necromancer don’t have to spend effort after create one undead, they need to spend power to keep them “alive” and bound to their will. The Lich Lord never showed such power all by himself.

The resulting explosion sank Orr into the sea and transformed the Vizier from a living being of flesh and bone into an undying lich, made of ichor and decay.

So he was turned by the spell’s power.

That’s purely speculative, and if it were how you say then explain Palawa Joko – whom is no different than Khilbron except by appearance, nationality, and age – having an army of undead.

Khilbron actually commanding the undead shows that he ruled them, and he rose spirits and undead at a single time (Sanctum Cay and Thunderhead Keep missions)- though claiming it to be the power of the Scepter of Orr, there’s no reason to believe such claims as he was faking his identity.

NOTHING says that the Cataclysm turned Khilbron. To say it did is pure supposition.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I think you’ve seen my posts long enough to know my stance on the matter and, knowing that, can infer when I have a few implied phrases which are a common English usage.

I’ve seen a lot of things, many of which are common in English usage but don’t translate well into written word. As such I’m not in the habit of making a whole lot of assumptions. Especially implied phrases that can vary widely from the same person based on their mood.

The Nightmare Court are called twisted and corrupted, but nothing really says this “corruption” is the same kind of corruption as Elder Dragon corruption and twisting. Just like how Abaddon’s “corruption” of the Margonites is in no way made related.

Agreed. Nothing is confirmed either way. So I merely point out the existence of possibility.

I’m not taking assumptions as facts either, but apparently this discussion has gone on so long that you’ve forgotten what it was originally about – despite it not being that long at all. Let me try again:

Just because the Nightmare Court is altered and twisted, does not make them minions of Mordremoth; it can be little different than situations like Flame Legion shamans whom are altered physically and seemingly mentally. To outright claim that the Nightmare Court are minions of Mordremoth – as many do – is like outright claiming that the Flame Legion shamans are minions of Primordus (just as outright claiming the sylvari as a whole are minions of Mordremoth are like saying Embers are minions of Primordus).

In short, the common comparison is:
Nightmare Court is to Mordremoth as Sons of Svanir are to Jormag.

However, for all we can tell, the actual comparison is no different from:
Nightmare Court is to Mordremoth as Flame Legion are to Primordus.

That is to say, there are alterations that occur in the group, but they may or may not be tied to an Elder Dragon.

I make nor take no assumption – I am merely denying the assumptions made by others of a sure-fire Mordremoth connection.

Right you are. Nothing is confirmed. The possibilities remain.

Yet my response to your post had nothing to do with what the topic has delved into – the Nightmare Court being minions or not – but instead was an extrapolation of pointing out that claiming all sylvari to be Mordrem is foolhardy, and I cited appearance as an example (which, in all honesty, can be extended to the Nightmare Court as well).

Yes, conversations do tend to evolve. However, I didn’t claim that all sylvari are mordrem. I merely pointed out how the possibility does exist. As well as a great many other possibilities that could tie sylvari to mordy. Nothing in lore confirms a definite relation or a definite non-relation. Possibilities abound. We seem to be agreed here.