Guild Wars 2

Premise- Developing a rational relationship between the six Human Gods and six Elder Dragons based on both subjective and objective information ascertained from Tyrian lore and personal opinion.

The Elder Dragons- Morality is subjective depending on the society that governs it, there are no absolutes in this regard. The current dominant species of Tyria label the Elder Dragons as evil because of their ultimatum, “Corrupting and destroying life, consuming what remains before returning to hibernation”. What they actually serve by existing within an unknown cycle is inconclusive, however there has been several such cycles, so it’s apart of their nature. The methodology they use of corruption, gaining minions to carry out their work till it’s time to feast, is seen as obscene because of morality. Also due to the fact it’s being carried out in a xenocide on a planetary scale. However since their more of a force of nature, if any moral core within them exists and have yet to display as such, it’s just how they operate, similar to how a parasitoid wasp lobotomizes it’s victim and lays eggs inside while alive to continue on it’s species.

The Elder Dragons also have unique, individual methods of corruption ; fire, ice, crystal and reanimation are the current known, while the Deep Sea Dragon and “Mordremoth” are unknown (however it can be speculated decay and corruption of flora is Mordremoth’s main method of corruption). What exactly makes each special and how they came across their methods and why they use them are unknown, it’s impossible to grasp without knowledge prior to their ascension to elder dragon status; i.e. evolution (guided or natural), acquired or force given form.

The death of Zhaitan also doesn’t seem to effect the existence of the other Elder Dragons, outside of the loss of a specific corrupting element. Whether or not this strengthens or weakens the others, they have yet to display taking control of it’s minions, leaving some evidence that they can only control forces within their specific element. Once lost, it doesn’t translate to another elder dragon and it’s unknown if a lesser minion can take advantage of Zhaitan’s Death to transcend to elder dragon status, as such is unknown in terms of acquisition.

Six Gods- Each of the six gods correspond to a specific element(s) within their domain of power. However, given the fact that Abaddon, Dhuum and Menzies were also gods at one point, the power of a god is static and can be obtained by defeating or stealing from a previous god. Also, the power of a specific god can be parsed between gods, filling in a void as seen with the fall of Abaddon and is unknown whether or not one god could obtain all of the powers, if there is a limit to what they can control or if specific governing powers work best within relation to each other, allowing one god to control it while another cannot.

Connection- Six gods and six elder dragons, while it could be all coincidence, it’s also possible there’s a deeper connection. Similar to how the asura fed off the slumbering Primordius, the gods could also abuse the power of a slumbering elder dragon as a source for powerful energy as well as draining them may also have cause them to awaken. If a relationship exists, it seems purely parasitic, and would explain the diversity of the gods and elder dragons, as well as similarities in power.

Speculation of Connection
Balthazar to Primordius
Grenth to Zhaitan
Dwyana to Jormag
Lyssa to Kralkatorrik
Melandru to Mordremoth
Kormir to Deep Sea Dragon

The awakening of the elder dragons also would explain the quiet abandonment of the gods, with their source of power no longer in stasis, they might fear retaliation from their host if the dragons discovered something was draining them. However given that Primordius has shown no signs of specifically targetting asura of leeching, it’s also possible they have no recollection of events prior to awakening. Also, the gods may fear themselves becoming targets, having bathed in the specific elder dragons power for over a millennium, would be beacons to the elder dragons, whose hunger knows no bounds.

With the death of Zhaitan, it’s possible that Grenth could make a re-appearance now his largest threat has been destroyed. Although since he shares similarities with Jormag, and possible the Deep Sea Dragon, it might be his best interest to remain hidden they are eradicated as well. In that case, the reamergence of the gods might not occur till after they are all killed or returned to hibernation. This, however, raises the question that if they are siphoning power from the elder dragons, what will happen to thee gods once the elder dragons are killed.

Energy is static, the elder dragons require consumption of magic and material to maintain their impressive size and power, if they are apart of a recycling process of resetting the world to Day One, where exactly does all the power come from (unless such energy is released as they slumber, or renews through other means). If they’re killed off, and the gods no longer have a resource to maintain their godhood, will they find a way to maintain their status or devolve into consuming magic in an earnest attempt to maintaining status quo.

As you can see, my tinfoil hat is very tight today.

The god’s don’t get their power at all from the elder dragons. It’s been stated and hinted through dialogue and sense that they left not only because they believed humanity should learn to stand on it’s own but because they are their own source of magic and the dragons would probably just eat them or at most cause a very huge battle destroying alot of land.

The gods power source has always existed because in nightfall when abaddon dies kormir absorbs it and a forgotten or margonite(forget which atm) states abaddon had a previous individual who had the power he currently had. So it’s never been the dragons and the fact there are 6 could easily just tie into a 6th race if anything here. What’s also worth mentioning is that the gods seemed to not even be aware the dragons existed when they landed in orr and sensed the magical potential but wasn’t aware what it exactly was.

Lastly their domain is less of their power and more of their actual personality. Abaddon was originally the patron of water but after his demise lyssa’s followers suddenly took it up for no real apperant reason. Also Kormir is known as the god of justice and such while abaddon was known as the god of secrets(while kormir can still do this role her title was changed because of her actual beliefs). Also Grenth was born on tyria and got his power after dethroning dhuum. What’s interesting to note here was dhuum didn’t have anything to do with ice but when grenth became god of the underworld he did.

When was menzies ever a god?

Also I don’t think the gods are simply bound by the element(they all don’t have an element btw) they govern, which can be easily shown by how Abaddon was previously the god of water which was just given to lyssa. The element the gods govern seems to almost irrelevent, as the gods are capable of so much more.

Also the pairing you chose for the gods doesn’t make any sense based on multiple factors.

Also I’m quite sure the dragons were on Tyria first so them having any relation doesn’t really make any sense.

The gods weren’t even around before the dragons awoke this time, and I’m pretty sure it was called the silence of the gods (which is pretty much how it was in GW1, so there’s no difference imo).

Please use the search function, we had this topic 200 times. Besides that, Dwyana to Jormag doesn’t make sense, the big Jay has no connection to wind, air life or healing and Dwayna has no connection to frost (in before cold wind… yes then you could also say cold water = Lyssa). Lyssa to Kralkatorrik has no connection either, beside Snaff going into the ED’s mind, but that was because he was probably a mesmer, not because of the dragon’s connection to mental powers. Kormir to Deep Sea Dragon, how is Kormir in any way connected to water? Abaddon was, but Kormir isn’t.

Why does everyone see the need to connect the gods and the dragons? Because they are both powerful magical beings? So? What about the spirits of the wild, are they connected to the dragons or gods? If not, why?

BuddhaKeks.4857:

What about the spirits of the wild, are they connected to the dragons or gods? If not, why?

I actually do have a theory that connects all of them but it doesn’t link each god or SotW with a specific dragon.

Acidicore.3264:

The awakening of the elder dragons also would explain the quiet abandonment of the gods, with their source of power no longer in stasis

You misunderstand many many things. The gods still have the same power, the magic they gave to the world is the thing that no longer has the same power.

The Gods haven’t retreated because of the dragons. Why would Grenth come back after the death of Zhaitan? If he had wanted to stay, he wouldn’t left 1200 years before the awakening of a dragon whose mere existence was either unknown or rejected by the gods.

Acidicore.3264:

Premise- Developing a rational relationship between the six Human Gods and six Elder Dragons based on both subjective and objective information ascertained from Tyrian lore and personal opinion.

There is no relationship. People seriously need to stop trying to make something out of nothing.

Acidicore.3264:

Six Gods- Each of the six gods correspond to a specific element(s) within their domain of power. However, given the fact that Abaddon, Dhuum and Menzies were also gods at one point, the power of a god is static and can be obtained by defeating or stealing from a previous god. Also, the power of a specific god can be parsed between gods, filling in a void as seen with the fall of Abaddon and is unknown whether or not one god could obtain all of the powers, if there is a limit to what they can control or if specific governing powers work best within relation to each other, allowing one god to control it while another cannot.

You got a few things wrong.

1. Menzies was never said to have been a god.
2. The “element(s)” part of the Six Gods don’t seem to be tied to their power, as that part is what’s “switched around” – Kormir is not the goddess of water despite Abaddon was, but instead with Abaddon’s death, Lyssa is the goddess of water; similarly, Dhuum was not the god of ice despite Grenth being such (before Grenth, there was no known god of ice).

Acidicore.3264:

Connection- Six gods and six elder dragons, while it could be all coincidence, it’s also possible there’s a deeper connection. Similar to how the asura fed off the slumbering Primordius, the gods could also abuse the power of a slumbering elder dragon as a source for powerful energy as well as draining them may also have cause them to awaken. If a relationship exists, it seems purely parasitic, and would explain the diversity of the gods and elder dragons, as well as similarities in power.

Speculation of Connection
Balthazar to Primordius
Grenth to Zhaitan
Dwyana to Jormag
Lyssa to Kralkatorrik
Melandru to Mordremoth
Kormir to Deep Sea Dragon

It is just coincidence, folks.

1. The Six Gods only tapped into Zhaitan’s power once – and it was to strengthen the Bloodstones.
2. Kormir has absolutely nothing to do with water and thus has absolutely no ties to the deep sea dragon.
3. Dwayna has absolutely nothing to do with ice and thus has absolutely no ties to Jormag.
4. None of the Elder Dragons have anything to do with non-element aspects, and Kormir lacks an element – this proves that the Six Gods don’t need elements in their domain but they choose to have elements in their domain. Furthermore, if Lyssa is considered for water, Kralkatorrik is left without a god, and Dwayna – no matter what – is left without a dragon while Grenth would have two unless you give Zhaitan to Dwayna and Jormag to Grenth; however, if we’re talking about the power of gods, we shouldn’t consider Grenth and Kormir but Dhuum and Abaddon’s unknown predecessor – and again, Dhuum held no ties to ice and thus has nothing in common with Jormag (while Abaddon’s predecessor is unknown fully).

Acidicore.3264:

The awakening of the elder dragons also would explain the quiet abandonment of the gods, with their source of power no longer in stasis, they might fear retaliation from their host if the dragons discovered something was draining them. However given that Primordius has shown no signs of specifically targetting asura of leeching, it’s also possible they have no recollection of events prior to awakening. Also, the gods may fear themselves becoming targets, having bathed in the specific elder dragons power for over a millennium, would be beacons to the elder dragons, whose hunger knows no bounds.

Except that…

1. Dwayna, Balthazar, and Melandru were gods when they came to Tyria – before they ever interacted with Zhaitan.
2. Again, *the Six Gods only drained power from Zhaitan to power the Bloodstone. They did not siphon from him “for over a millennium.”
3. The Six Gods only interacted with Zhaitan – and unknowingly at that!
4. The Six Gods went silent after Abaddon’s defeat three years before Primordus began to stir, and over 50 years before any Elder Dragon woke up.

You’re making up facts, sir, to create a false precedence for “your” theory (and by “your” I mean yours and every third person’s because it’s THAT common of a misconception).

The easiest method to do this would be to strip the gods of their elemental ties, because of the dynamic change of these, and go with the powers that actually do transfer with the gods.

Dhuum<Grenth – Death
Balthazar – War
Dwayna – Life
Lyssa – Illusion
Melandru – Nature
Predecessor<Abaddon<Kormir – Knowledge (being the god of secrets is just having knowledge and not sharing it)

It gets a bit iffy around the Abaddon – Kormir – Lyssa thing because Abaddon had ties to illusion as well, but Kormir has no such ties, so my best conclusion is that Abaddon also had a tie with chaos magic, which for the time being I will consider an “elemental” tie in that should be excluded. People can feel free to challenge me on this.

When you do this things get extremely confusing. There is no elder dragon tied to knowledge, and as of yet there is no dragon tied to nature. Zhaitan’s undeath could be tied into a corruption of life or death, which ties him to both Grenth and Dwayna. Balthazar and Primordus still have a very flimsy connection in that Balthazar wants conquest and glory and Primordus uses war to spread destruction of all. This leaves illusion, which really isn’t connected to a dragon either. The only one that seems to use mesmeric skills extensively is Jormag, but he has no ties to illusion, more towards deceit, which was kind of a realm that Abaddon filled.

And thus the Elder Dragon = Gods theory doesn’t really fit at all with the state of the game or the lore. If you wanted to go the opposite route and say that the gods gained their elemental affinity from the ED’s, well there is no ED for chaos magic (no Kralky doesn’t do anything Chaos, if you wanna see Chaos look at Thaumanova), or air, or earth (Mordremoth is speculation).

I would probably consider Lyssa (and any predecessor she may or may not have) Beauty, since Illusion feels rather “elemental” to me.

Or maybe we should start calling them the Seven Gods and consider Lyss and Ilya separate… Since we don’t know of any predecessor for Lyssa, it’s hard to tell for her what’s the case.

I’d hardly say that Primordues uses war. He’s just outright slaughter and massacre. There’s hardly anything “war” like about the destroyers’ actions.

War isn’t always the strategic capturing of others. I would consider Primordus’ war to be similar to Sauron’s war to kill all life in Middle Earth. In either case there would be no life except the minions of the leader, and in both cases it is considered war.

Under that kind of argument, all Elder Dragons are are war. Moreso with Jormag and Zhaitan.

I would say that this is the case. I wouldn’t consider Zhaitan’s attack against Claw Island to be anything less than a well thought out and planned attack against it’s most active enemy. Zhaitan was definitely at war with Lion’s Arch, and eventually the pact. I’m not saying the war connection is great, I said there that it was flimsy at best, and I agree that it works with most all of the dragons (thus being flimsy). The whole point of my paragraph was the same as yours, to point out the flaws of connecting the gods and the dragons, and I feel we both succeeded did we not?

Well my rebuttle to your paragraph was to show that it holds an even less connection than you were saying is the best possible connection. :P

So instead of a flimsy thread it’s what? A faint trace of loosely organized particles?

I would have gone with “a brittle concept” but your words are better.

Narcemus.1348:

War isn’t always the strategic capturing of others. I would consider Primordus’ war to be similar to Sauron’s war to kill all life in Middle Earth. In either case there would be no life except the minions of the leader, and in both cases it is considered war.

Off-topic: You are incorrect about Sauron’s plans. He wanted to enslave and rule all the Free Peoples of Middle Earth. And while they might have gone extinct in several centuries in work camps and due to twisting/experimentation (similar to how the orcs came to be from elves) had Sauron won, all his other “allies” (minions) would have survived: dragons, goblins, orcs, trolls, Easterlings, Haradrim, etc.

If you want to compare Primordus’ war with that of another IP’s evil, then I’d say he’s doing what the Reapers are doing to prehistoric civilizations: they wipe them out completely.

Okay, I went to an extreme. I’m sure at the least there would still be orcs, dragons, and trolls (remembering that orc is just the elvish name for goblins) out and about fighting each other (for kittens and giggles). Haradrim and Easterling survival would probably be based on Sauron’s whims, and most likely there would have been a second war taking Sarumon out of power, because we all know that he would turn against Sauron given enough time.