Guild Wars 2

(yay more non-Scarlet threads!)

Over the past 250 years, the Maguuma Jungle had since been divided into three sub-regions: Tarnished Coast (previously existed), Magus Falls, and the Maguuma Wastes.

The Maguuma Wastes is an interesting aspect among these, for it is called such because the jungle is drying up and become a bit of a wasteland. This is one of the causes of the Harathi (known simply as “Maguuma centaurs” in GW1) joining in the Centaur War effort (alongside, y’know, being forced into joining by the Modniir). I would like to take this time to observe and theorize on the drying nature of the Maguuma Jungle’s northern side.

It is presently in-universe theory (mentioned via an interview a while back, not seen in-game) that the drying is caused by an Elder Dragon. I believe this to be a red herring. And I say this out of three facts:

1. In GW1, the Maguuma Jungle’s northern section already had a lot of arid nature to it. From Dry Top to Ettin’s Back to Sage Lands. The thing that’s most interesting to note about this is that it was the higher elevated lands that were arid – any canyons or valleys were full of vegetation and life… and water.
2. Which brings me to fact two: The Maguuma Jungle’s waters were magical with healing properties. We do not see any evidence of this in GW2, though we don’t get much into the GW1 Maguuma Jungle (western Brisban Wildlands is the best we get).
3. The Bloodstone in Bloodstone Fen. According to Angel McCoy in an interview with espirits and GW2RP’s follow-up lore interview with Angel and Scott McGough, the Bloodstones have weakened over time – especially over the past 250 years. This is in part the cause of the professions having a wider range of capabilities. It is also known that the Bloodstones seeped magic into the area.

From these three points, I create my theory.

Firstly, the healing waters is gone, as pointed, to the best we can tell. In western Brisban we see the edge of the Maguuma Wastes – and in the canyons there, named The Gallowfields – are without water. However, this is not a strong argument alone – a single point is an oddity, two a coincidence: three make a trend. But if we go south, into Toxal Bog, Aurora’s Remains, and The Shattered Henge, we have water in what was in GW1, the Maguuma Jungle and the water in GW1 in these areas were with healing properties… but here we have no such thing. This shows that the healing waters have either dried up, lost their effect, or the effect has simply diminished to not reaching that far.

Secondly, the Bloodstone. After the Exodus, there were five Bloodstones. One of which was for Preservation magic – which seems most likely to be healing, or otherwise the field of the monk profession. With the Bloodstone weakening, and the healing waters at the very least receding in effect, the two may be linked together. The water was previously used to believe that the Bloodstone Fen bloodstone was in fact the Preservation bloodstone. This may be further proof.

Thirdly, a return to the first point above – the aridness. Only around the healing waters did vegetation grow. Far from it, the land was arid.

Finally, unlike other locations (be it Blazeridge Mountains, Shiverpeak Mountains, Orr, Crystal Desert/Sea, or even the Tarnished Coast), the Maguuma Jungle has a severe lack of ancient mentions. The oldest possible mention comes from the History of Tyria referring to their arrival on the land (205 BE and following years): “We hunted animals for sport, chased the druids from the jungle, and took up residence in lands that did not belong to us.” However, “the jungle” could refer to many things, and the druids were originally Krytans who left for the Maguuma (hinting that the druids were chased from Kryta into the Maguuma) – so perhaps Kryta was more forested than we have known… But that’s besides the point.

Add these together, this is my conclusion:

The Maguuma Jungle was originally an arid location (at least around where the Wastes are). The Bloodstone’s magic seeped into the water, enchanting it, and helped plantlife grow – thus it became the Maguuma Jungle. This spread with the aid of the druids, who were chased out of their original jungle (Kryta? Woodland Cascades? Orr? Was said to have become verdant thanks to Melandru) into the Maguuma – then arid.

Thus the “Maguuma Wastes” is nothing more than the land reverting to its original form, with no more magic from the druids (whom mostly disappeared as early as a century before GW1) or the Bloodstone to feed it.

Others’ thoughts?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Thus the “Maguuma Wastes” is nothing more than the land reverting to its original form, with no more magic from the druids (whom mostly disappeared as early as a century before GW1) or the Bloodstone to feed it.

Others’ thoughts?

That’s interesting… I hadn’t thought of this before, but the Henge of Denravi is now, along with that river, the last significant body of water on the edge of the wastes… and the sight of a major concentration of druid husks, implied to still contain the dormant spirits of the druids, and known to still contain their power. I wonder if those druids are working to keep the spread of the wastes in check?

On a different note, and not so much an objection as simple curiosity- this theory is that the bloodstone is the cause of the rampant plant growth, but the GW1 description of Bloodstone Fen suggested that the Bloodstone was out of the ordinary because plants wouldn’t grow on it. How would you reconcile that with the theory?

I never did much research into this, but I always found the drying up of the jungle really interesting. I assumed that Mordremoth was somewhere in the region, consuming nature, which was where all the magic was stored.

@Aaron: Wouldn’t grow on top of it – but they grew under it it should be noted (the Bloodstone is literally forming a cliff, the end held up by giant vines if memory serves me right – no good image on GWW though). But the theory is that the bloodstone’s magic seeped into the water, and from the healing water grew the plants. The fact that they didn’t grow directly on top of the Bloodstone – which wouldn’t be soil thus wouldn’t be that viable for plantlife in the first place even if not magical – doesn’t affect the theory at all.

@Kenneh: I find the theory that Mordremoth’s the cause of the Maguuma drying up to be seriously odd. Mordremoth is – by all indication – the Elder Dragon of Vegetation. He should be making (hostile/poisonous) plants, not destroying them. Presuming that the Jungle Dragon is indeed Zone Green related, what with the constant poison and the husks/nightmare hounds within CoE. His minions would thus be plants, his corruption spawning poisonous pants.

They wouldn’t take root in it- at least not at first- but as long as it’s been sitting there you’d certainly expect it to be encrusted with lichen or moss, at the very least.

It was also maintained, keep in mind, by the White Mantle and the mursaat (or whomever carved those runes). And it – and the others – were objects of dispute during the Guild Wars at one point or another.

Apparently there is an interview from 2010 that mentions there might be “other agents” involved in the drying up of the Maguuma. I’m trying to download it now to get some exact wording.
Minor correction: the druids didn’t disappear, they simply became spirits/treants to become closer with nature. Also, the elevated portions of the Maguuma remained arid even in the presence of magic. It was the lower elevations with high concentrations of water that had so much vegetation. I think there has to be something more at work here.
One final thing: In my original post, I didn’t mean to make it sound like an ED was consuming the jungle, but rather that it was consuming the water for its magical properties which would lead to the death of plant life. I (perhaps wrongly) assumed that consumption would take precedence over corruption.

You mean the old GuildMag interview? The exact wording was " This change has been attributed to the rise of the Elder Dragons, but that has not been confirmed, and there may be other nefarious agents at work."

This is a very reasonable theory Konig, but I think there may be more factors at work here. The drying up of the jungle could also be due to the druids no longer tending the plants, and helping them grow. And it’s also possible that the Bloodstone didn’t bleed dry entirely by itself. It is entirely possible that if there is a Jungle Dragon in the Maguuma Jungle, that it would zero in on the bloodstone and suck it dry.

I think it’s likely to be a sum of all these factors. And yes I agree, a Jungle Dragon would probably corrupt plant-life, not destroy it.

Stupid question.. but what magic did the druids use? Preservation magic? Like monks? I mean, there is no Melandru-aligned Blood Stone.. yet..

For the Mordremoth theory, I always just assumed he was just absorbing the nutrients from the surrounding lands. He isn’t consciously destroying the land, per say, but he was taking their water and nutrients like a invasive weed would in a garden. The weed only cares for itself, so it has no qualms with strangling and killing off the competition (ei: any vegetation that he doesn’t see as his own).

Being possibly underground for so long, not to mention starved to hibernation from the last ED cycle, could have left Mordremoth weakened and withered. It is based around a plant after all. So, Mordremoth has been drawing in nutrients from the surrounding lands to revitalize itself for its coming awakening.

It’s funny every time you theorize about the Maguuma, you forget one crucial source of information. :P

The higher elevations are mostly devoid of water. Only the largest and hardiest of plants can live here. But down farther, closer to the water table, the Maguuma grows thick. The vegetation can become so dense that there are areas of the jungle floor that have never been touched by the sun’s light.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Maguuma_Jungle

Healing property is unnecessary for the thriving of flora when the area has a large enough underground water table to sustain it.

If even those regions where the “vegetation was so dense that the jungle floor had never (another indication that the Maguuma was there since time immemorial) been touched by the sun’s light” dried out, the most logical explanation is that something destroyed/drained/evaporated the water table. And that is why I think Primordus boiled the water away during his trekking in the Depths, and now he resides somewhere beneath the northern reaches of the Wastes.

Magic never vanishes – it always changes Form.
A jungle vanishes, a new race awakens – I think we’re even..

i kinda always thought that “desertification due to magic being drained/seeped/whatever” was the most possible cause. it’s a common theme in fantasy games (Radiant Historia is a game entirely about that), it fits your theory of the bloodstone’s weakening being at fault, and it doesn’t exclude the dragon theory either, since a dragon could be accelerating the process.

Kenneth.8496:

Minor correction: the druids didn’t disappear, they simply became spirits/treants to become closer with nature. Also, the elevated portions of the Maguuma remained arid even in the presence of magic. It was the lower elevations with high concentrations of water that had so much vegetation. I think there has to be something more at work here.

I am aware. Them becoming spirits IS their act of disappearing, in fact. If you played Prophecies and paid attention to outposts and side-quests, you’d likely know this.

And I mentioned the elevation and explained it in the theory – only areas around the healing water had vegetation, and there was no water in the higher elevation areas, which were arid.

Kenneth.8496:

One final thing: In my original post, I didn’t mean to make it sound like an ED was consuming the jungle, but rather that it was consuming the water for its magical properties which would lead to the death of plant life. I (perhaps wrongly) assumed that consumption would take precedence over corruption.

The Elder Dragons seem to do both at the same time. They consume, then they exude as corruption. Though they “eat” magic, it isn’t traditional eating – and I view it more like breathing. Breath magic (oxygen) in, breath corruption (CO2) out. Would give a new light to starving the Elder Dragons by removing magic.. it’s more of depriving them of air to breath, making them lose consciousness.

Though that’s just interpretation.

Miroe.2054:

Stupid question.. but what magic did the druids use? Preservation magic? Like monks? I mean, there is no Melandru-aligned Blood Stone.. yet..

The bloodstones aren’t aligned to the gods. They’re aligned all to themselves. Dwayna is not Preservation, Balthazar is not Destruction, etc.

The druids were said to have been followers of Melandru, so their magic was likely akin to rangers’ modern magic. Chances are that they would have use Destruction magic – may seem odd, but Elementalists were confirmed to use Destruction magic so Destruction seems to be nature-tied.

Thalador.4218:

Healing property is unnecessary for the thriving of flora when the area has a large enough underground water table to sustain it.

Not necessarily. There’s no indication on the size, and how would you explain the healing properties of the water?

Thalador.4218:

If even those regions where the “vegetation was so dense that the jungle floor had never (another indication that the Maguuma was there since time immemorial) been touched by the sun’s light” dried out, the most logical explanation is that something destroyed/drained/evaporated the water table.

“Never” could just mean “since it was formed.”

shrug Who cares? It wasn’t necessary for the formation of the jungle…

But I’m with you on the source of the healing properties:

1. Preservation bloodstone
2. Druid rituals
3. Melandru

From likeliest to least.

You see, there are no outhouses in the Maguma jungle….

I meant more of “what happened to the healing properties of the water?” – As I noted, there’s still water around the areas that had such healing water before (southwestern corner of Brisban Wildlands).

I wouldn’t be surprised if they’d simply forgotten to add a regeneration-giving “program code” (or whatever it is) to those waters. They don’t care about the big stuff from GW1… why should they care about the small stuff?

DarcShriek.5829:

You see, there are no outhouses in the Maguma jungle….

We don’t have outhouses.

Tacking on, under the assumption that Mordy would provide more plantlife(seems pretty reasonable), can also assume where the jungle is thickest could be where Mordy lies. It’d be really neat if in the LS later, they judge the rate of desertification and use that to center on Mordremoth.

Thalador.4218:

I wouldn’t be surprised if they’d simply forgotten to add a regeneration-giving “program code” (or whatever it is) to those waters. They don’t care about the big stuff from GW1… why should they care about the small stuff?

No, I think there definitely is a good reason.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Thalador.4218:

I wouldn’t be surprised if they’d simply forgotten to add a regeneration-giving “program code” (or whatever it is) to those waters. They don’t care about the big stuff from GW1… why should they care about the small stuff?

No, I think there definitely is a good reason.

Your unbroken faith in them after everything is really cute.

Well, a lot of thought was put into the waters having regenerative powers in GW1. They deliberately put it in there for a story reason. So it seems odd to me that they would simply drop this detail, and also change the climate of the area, without having a reason for it. I think there’s definitely more to this, and I think Konig is on to something. I think however it’s only a small piece of a larger puzzle.

Thalador.4218:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Thalador.4218:

I wouldn’t be surprised if they’d simply forgotten to add a regeneration-giving “program code” (or whatever it is) to those waters. They don’t care about the big stuff from GW1… why should they care about the small stuff?

No, I think there definitely is a good reason.

Your unbroken faith in them after everything is really cute.

you’re talking about the devs that made it so you get a buff if you /kneel on a random statue.

they do pay attention to small things.

BrunoBRS.5178:

Thalador.4218:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Thalador.4218:

I wouldn’t be surprised if they’d simply forgotten to add a regeneration-giving “program code” (or whatever it is) to those waters. They don’t care about the big stuff from GW1… why should they care about the small stuff?

No, I think there definitely is a good reason.

Your unbroken faith in them after everything is really cute.

you’re talking about the devs that made it so you get a buff if you /kneel on a random statue.

they do pay attention to small things.

In “GW2,” yeah.

This theory works, and everything fits together, but it does fail to account for one variable: why is any of this narratively compelling? It’s pretty clear that the Elder Dragons aren’t the reason, or at least the main reason, for the Maguuma drying out, and the mention of “other nefarious agents” suggests, to me at least, some sort of conscious effort rather than a natural byproduct of processes begun long ago. The drying out of the Maguuma needs to tie in with the future story in some interesting way, otherwise it was pointless from a storytelling point of view other than to increase terrain variety (and that would certainly not merit cryptic hints about nefarious agents).

Tamias.7059:

(and that would certainly not merit cryptic hints about nefarious agents).

Look at that recent disappointment with the gargoyles. Perfect example of a “cryptic hint” being dropped that meant… absolutely nothing whatsoever. This isn’t a story, it’s an MMORPG; the main purpose of teasers like that aren’t to drive a narrative, but rather to excite a fanbase. It’s just as likely that ANet has no plans for why the desertification occurred, or that it is indeed the work of an Elder Dragon, as it is that these “nefarious agents” will actually manifest- Jeff intentionally left it so vague that we cannot rule out anything at all right now.

@Tamias.7059: I’ve been thinking of the “nefarious agents” and I think that the White Mantle/Lazarus may be siphoning from the Bloodstone for still-unknown means, thus weakening it even faster than it should be. Would then explain the reduction of healing properties in even 250 years compared to ~1,000 years.

@Aaron Ansari.1604:The difference between this and the gargoyles is that the gargoyles comment was in-game while this was via interview. While it’s possible that Jeff Grubb’s comment is just a case of giving additional not-story text and flavor to the world’s lore, it’s equally possible (perhaps more so because it’s not in-game) to be for an actual storytelling purpose.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Aaron Ansari.1604:The difference between this and the gargoyles is that the gargoyles comment was in-game while this was via interview. While it’s possible that Jeff Grubb’s comment is just a case of giving additional not-story text and flavor to the world’s lore, it’s equally possible (perhaps more so because it’s not in-game) to be for an actual storytelling purpose.

See, I’d argue the opposite- since it’s not in the actual medium of the story but rather in a form whose sole purpose is to throw the fanbase a bone, it’s all the more likely to be fanhype material rather than storytelling.

Except that when there’s no storytelling, they don’t give a bone.

See the question on the Wizard’s Towers from the Lore Q&A Dolyak Express. They gave us what we knew on the Krytan one, said there’s no connection between that and the Ascalonian one, and said “well, who knows what’s going on with the Ascalonian one” rather than making some obscure “hey, something could be happening” they just said “we have nothing for it atm.”

They did the same for Cantha since before release. When asked they just go “what’s in the Movement/in-game is all we got done on it.” No bone. No cryptic message. Just flat out “we didn’t think of it yet.”

Scott, Jeff, and Angel all do this. Not sure off the top of my head if Ree does.