Guild Wars 2

I’ve answered in a couple of different threads about the current speculation going on about sylvari and possible corruption. This is why I decided to dedicate a small thread to it for future reference and clarification.

Note, none of this is actually confirmed, it’s still theorycrafting/speculation, nothing more and nothing less.

A current theory is that sylvari born from the Pale Tree (there is at least one more tree where sylvari are born from out there, this is why I specifically say born from the Pale Tree) are ‘blessed’ with an immunity to dragon corruption. Said immunity being that they before getting corrupted.

Now, the theory about sylvari is based on that single line, I’ll repeat it one more time:
Sylari born from the Pale Tree.

Why is the Pale Tree so important? The Pale Tree has the Dream of Dreams in contrast to the other tree we know of. This makes it likely that said immunity origins from the Dream. It’s plausible that sylvari who are under the influence of the dream can not be corrupted.

We know that after Scarlet entered Omadd’s machine her connection to the Dream got severed. In other words: she is not under the influence of the dream anymore. This is different from the Soundless. The Soundless sylvari use continuous meditation to block themselves from the Dream but they still have a connection to it.

This makes Scarlet different. When Scarlet entered Omadd’s machine and her connection got, well, disconnected, she was vulnerable to Elder Dragon corruption. And I’ll say that again, Elder Dragon corruption. This means; every Elder Dragon, not specifically or exclusive to Mordremoths corruption.

This also makes it quite plausible that every sylvari spawned from Malyck’s tree is vulnerable to Elder Dragon corruption.

I hope I’ve been able to clarify a few things. However, I want to add a few more thing:

1: Sylvari, being from the Pale Tree or Malyck’s tree, are not born as dragon minions.
Sylvari who don’t have a connection the Dream of Dreams are vulnerable to corruption just like every other race is

2: Sylvari are not specifically tied to Mordremoth (until stated otherwise by devs)

3: Scarlet is not confirmed to be corrupted. It’s plausible, yes, but nothing more then that. To me, her ego indicates that she still had a free will. And a free will implies to non-corruption.

4: To continue on the above: the difference between corruption and influenced is that;

Corruption equals being brainwashed. A corrupted dragon minion is unconditionally devoted to his or her Elder Dragon. They lack free will.

Influenced is still being a devoted minion to his or her Elder Dragon but with free will. A good example are the Sons of Svanir and Icebrood.

Icebrood are corrupted beings by Jormag, Sons of Svanir are a cult. They are Norns influenced by Jormag, lured with promises of power.

But how do we know the Sylvari from the other (Malyck’s) tree aren’t connected with their dream or that they aren’t immune to dragon corruption?
Malyck has no memory of anything before waking up. He only feels a great sense of distance, and loss. What if something happened to his people and the tree?
If their mother tree was destroyed would that result in loss of the dream or even memory? Would that make them vulnerable to the dragons?

Malyck never lost his memory; that was the PC’s assumption because he didn’t know of the Grove, the Dream, Nightmare, or Pale Tree. It was proven if you go with Caithe’s path in the storyline that he never lost his memory, and it was proven if you go with Trahearne that he never had a Dream of Dreams experience.

The Dream of Dreams is not unique to trees – see the White Stag – it seems to be location-based, rather than something tied to the sylvari race.

We have no indication whether or not Malyck and his tree’s sylvari can be corrupted – that’s part of the hypothesis.

I assume, if Maguma Jungle does become a zone, we’ll see Malyck again, and if he’s corrupted, it would probably explain a lot.
If he’s not..Well then it’s more confusing. lol Or implies Scarlet wasn’t corrupted by an ED.

Scarlet spent 14 months trying to wake her master up. She did this because she had no choice, she tried unsuccessfully to fight it according to her logs. This is evidence of corruption. She was robbed of her free will just as Glint, Svanir and every minion and champion before her.

We probably won’t see Malyck again, simply because he was in the personal story. We may get references to him, but I doubt we’ll ever actually see him. Anet seems to want to avoid crossing the PS and LS streams. Egon warned them about that.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

it was proven if you go with Trahearne that he never had a Dream of Dreams experience.

I’ve been rereading that dialogue and I found this curious:

Amaranda the Lonesome: A distant shore—and darkness. A root, a cave…you. You are the seed. What Ronan knew and never told still lingers in the Dream.
Malyck: What does that mean?
Trahearne: It means my fears are well founded. You were not born of the Pale Tree, Malyck. We cannot see your Dream; you cannot see ours. I must return to the Grove and speak to the Pale Tree.

Trahearne could just be mistaken about him having a dream at all, but the name of this story step is also called “A Different Dream”.

If by Dream of Dreams you mean what our Pale Tree, our Sylvari, and the White Stag experience/interact with then that is true, if you mean a dream in general I think the above provides some evidence that they have a dream too. Though it may operate differently than our tree’s. Instead of offering pre-birth experiences it may just shield them.

Except that Malyck states he had no Dream of Dreams – at all. But as we see with Caithe, he didn’t have amnesia so it isn’t that he simply forgot his Dream of Dreams experience.

Maybe that’s because he was for some reason separated from his tree while he was still in his pod.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Except that Malyck states he had no Dream of Dreams – at all. But as we see with Caithe, he didn’t have amnesia so it isn’t that he simply forgot his Dream of Dreams experience.

Right. I believe him and accounted for that in my last sentence. However, I no longer think it’s right to call something a dream if it doesn’t offer experiences as dreams are by definition experiences had while sleeping. I’m just wondering why Mordremonth chose Scarlet as his vehicle for awakening if there were a whole bunch of other Sylvari without the dream’s protection lying in wait.

Edit: I suppose her superior gifts are one explanation for that, but a team of Sylvari under his influence could have done the same and be more convincing.

SirMoogie.9263:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Except that Malyck states he had no Dream of Dreams – at all. But as we see with Caithe, he didn’t have amnesia so it isn’t that he simply forgot his Dream of Dreams experience.

Right. I believe him and accounted for that in my last sentence. However, I no longer think it’s right to call something a dream if it doesn’t offer experiences as dreams are by definition experiences had while sleeping. I’m just wondering why Mordremonth chose Scarlet as his vehicle for awakening if there were a whole bunch of other Sylvari without the dream’s protection lying in wait.

Edit: I suppose her superior gifts are one explanation for that, but a team of Sylvari under his influence could have done the same and be more convincing.

The Pale Tree may have simply been the first to produce a sylvari of champion quality. This would be because it was planted first. I think it’s reasonable to believe that other trees will produce champions as the mature.

That is presuming that sylvari are dragon minions in the first place.

For which there is no support.

SirMoogie.9263:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

it was proven if you go with Trahearne that he never had a Dream of Dreams experience.

I’ve been rereading that dialogue and I found this curious:

Amaranda the Lonesome: A distant shore—and darkness. A root, a cave…you. You are the seed. What Ronan knew and never told still lingers in the Dream.
Malyck: What does that mean?
Trahearne: It means my fears are well founded. You were not born of the Pale Tree, Malyck. We cannot see your Dream; you cannot see ours. I must return to the Grove and speak to the Pale Tree.

Trahearne could just be mistaken about him having a dream at all, but the name of this story step is also called “A Different Dream”.

If by Dream of Dreams you mean what our Pale Tree, our Sylvari, and the White Stag experience/interact with then that is true, if you mean a dream in general I think the above provides some evidence that they have a dream too. Though it may operate differently than our tree’s. Instead of offering pre-birth experiences it may just shield them.

This distant shore-thing again!
It also appears in GW1 quest in Eye of the North “The Path to Revelations”
final words spoken by the Ephemeral Spirit (after deciphering):
“An offering to those who seek”
“Beyond the mists beyond the dreams”
“On distant shores of a land unwaking”
“Answers there lie in waiting”

It also features dreams (possibly dream of dreams?)
And the quest-chain leading to this spirit is related with the facets of the gods, the eternal alchemy and also the Mursaat.
There is a connection between the Mursaat and Ronin for they killed his family and Ronin planted the seed of the Pale Tree (after finding it in a cave along with other seeds guarded by hostile plants)
So there is also the cave-connection and its hinted that Ronin knew something he never told, but this knowledge is still lingering in the dream.

In GW1 Ronin says:
“There was a time that I cursed this world for taking away everything that I had. But living here, I have come to understand that these memories, even those that are painful, are seeds of our identity. They shape our growth.”

Memories are the seeds of identity – Malyck is also called the seed – so it all seems to be related somehow and maybe it leads to something bigger.

I can’t put it all together right now and maybe its just nothing, but it flashed on my mind suddenly as I read the lines above.

On the talk page about Ronan there is a link to the origin of the word Ronin – a japanese term for a Warrior without a master (again someone on his own?!)

“When Scarlet entered Omadd’s machine and her connection got, well, disconnected, she was vulnerable to Elder Dragon corruption.”

Can you please link the part in game where it says she became disconnected from the dream. Scarlet’s journal states that the nightmares started while she still was in contact with the menders and the journal specifically does not mention the machine.

I still don’t see anything to prove that she was corrupted. She may have just been vulnerable to psychic communication from the dragon.

No proof she was corrupted?
You mean like the read thorns that came from between her fingers?
You mean like her refering to Mordy as her master?
You mean like Canach’s observation that she looked like she wasn’t in control?

What do you need, A neon sign?

No red thorns does not mean corrupted.
Master? Has nobody ever had a master apart from dragon minions? Come on!
She wasn’t in control? Of course not. She was crazy. That’s one thing we do know.

Remember that her journal explicitly tells us that she surrendered to the whispers of the jungle dragon over a period of time. The other dragons do not corrupt that way, and we have no reason to believe the jungle dragon corrupts that way.

I wake from nightmares—screaming, confused, and scared. It’s getting wOrse. I’ve decided to talk to a mender. I’ve probably just been working too hard.

Every night, the same terrors. It never changes. The mender was unable to help Me, and I feel like I’m losing control of myself.

When the nightmare starts, an entity calls to me. I run—run into a sea of dArkness. But no matter how hard I try to escape, it keeps calling me.

I’m trying not to sleep—too scareD to even close my eyes… So scared. Whispers come from the forest all night long, calling me, taunting me, possessing me.

Tonight, I saw it. I started into the abyss, anD it stared back at me. So much power. I don’t know what’s real and what isn’t anymore.

Control of my world, of myself, is slipping through my hands. And yet, I’m no longer scared.

It communicated with me through images of death, destruction, and destiny. I must know more. I must confront it and put an end to this madness.

Stooperdale.3560:

No red thorns does not mean corrupted.
Master? Has nobody ever had a master apart from dragon minions? Come on!
She wasn’t in control? Of course not. She was crazy. That’s one thing we do know.

What is your definition of corruption and what do you think signs of it would be? It appears your looking for a big neon sign.
Keep it simple, we don’t need a thesis.

Stooperdale.3560:

“When Scarlet entered Omadd’s machine and her connection got, well, disconnected, she was vulnerable to Elder Dragon corruption.”

Can you please link the part in game where it says she became disconnected from the dream. Scarlet’s journal states that the nightmares started while she still was in contact with the menders and the journal specifically does not mention the machine.

I still don’t see anything to prove that she was corrupted. She may have just been vulnerable to psychic communication from the dragon.

It wasn’t in-game, but an interview back during the Jubilee which stated that Scarlet Briar is not connected to the Dream and thus all her new knowledge cannot go back to it and the Pale Tree or future sylvari will not be known to them.

http://wartower.tumblr.com/post/60458277036/this-lorespecial-is-about-scarlet-briar-the-evil

Stooperdale.3560:

No red thorns does not mean corrupted.
Master? Has nobody ever had a master apart from dragon minions? Come on!
She wasn’t in control? Of course not. She was crazy. That’s one thing we do know.

However, Scarlet is very narcessistic. In the above interview, Scott mentions how she thinks no one but possibly the Elder Dragons poses a threat to her (in her mind). She wouldn’t call something her master, everything about her is becoming her own master – to be independent.

Draconic corruption removes free will. So this sudden change is befitting of dragon corruption, IMO. So does the hint that the dragons can pose a threat to her – this fits dragon minion mentality, especially dragon champion mentality.

There’s also the yellow “growth” like stuff on her face.

Stooperdale.3560:

Remember that her journal explicitly tells us that she surrendered to the whispers of the jungle dragon over a period of time. The other dragons do not corrupt that way, and we have no reason to believe the jungle dragon corrupts that way.

Actually, Jormag kind of does… See Svanir.

Though Jormag is the only Elder Dragon of the five pre-Mordy ones that are known for mental mindscrews before corruption. However, all Elder Dragon minions do share a hive mind with each other and their master (read: Elder Dragon).

@ Konig, one small technical point. It was actually Drakkar that corrupted Svanir, not Jormag. I guess you could claim Jormag by proxy.

I tend to discount the yellow growth stuff on her face kitten far, Mordy seems to prefer the color red. Examples are the red thorns around the tree in the vision. The red thorns coming out from between her fingers. The red vine in the drawings and the red sketch of the dragon..

I never said “Jormag corrupted Svanir” – I was basically saying, in short-hand form, “Jormag corrupts via mental whispers. Such as how Svanir was corrupted.”

It isn’t just Drakkar, but the Dragonspawn and other icebrood too that have this mental-corruption ability.

I don’t see how you can outright connect the red vines to Mordremoth, but deny the yellow growth on Scarlet’s face, while claiming Scarlet is Mordremoth’s champion. Being his champion, she would (either immediately akin to risen and branded, or gradually akin to icebrood and destroyers) show physical change in her body. Since we can tell it isn’t immediate, it has to be gradual. The yellow growth is the only change to her body.

The red vines from her fingers is just standard sylvari manipulation of plants.

Besides, red is Primordus’ color…

I still have trouble reconciling the journal, that describes a slow descent into madness, with the sudden severance of the the dream in the isolation chamber. There doesn’t seem to be a timeline that fits both events. Does this seem to be just a continuity error or is there a proper explanation?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I never said “Jormag corrupted Svanir” – I was basically saying, in short-hand form, “Jormag corrupts via mental whispers. Such as how Svanir was corrupted.”

It isn’t just Drakkar, but the Dragonspawn and other icebrood too that have this mental-corruption ability.

I don’t see how you can outright connect the red vines to Mordremoth, but deny the yellow growth on Scarlet’s face, while claiming Scarlet is Mordremoth’s champion. Being his champion, she would (either immediately akin to risen and branded, or gradually akin to icebrood and destroyers) show physical change in her body. Since we can tell it isn’t immediate, it has to be gradual. The yellow growth is the only change to her body.

The red vines from her fingers is just standard sylvari manipulation of plants.

Besides, red is Primordus’ color…

Your right, red is primodus’ color.

But there’s been a lot of red involved in Scarlet’s relation with Mordy.

First the vines from her fingers were red. I’m not aware of any other sylvari doing that BTW. However, standard or not, the color was red.

Her chosen name was Scarlet.

Red vines in the dream

Red vines in the sketch.
The red vines are significant because they appeared in her dream and she also drew it on her wall. Apparently, it was significant enough that she had to express it somehow.

Red dragon on the wall.

That’s a lot of red. Now yellow at the end. I discount it. It may be a sign, but it seems inconsistent.

I think you’re connecting more things to Mordremoth than there really is.

I mean… do we really have any proof that the red vine in the vision was Mordremoth? No, we really don’t. The sketch obviously comes from the vision, so that’s not an additional point to hold but an elongated one.

It could have been a champion. And besides, Glint was blue, Kralkatorrik’s color is purple. So the color of a champion != color of a dragon’s corruption.

And it should be noted: red is completely absent from all creatures and plants in Zone Green and Experimental Lab Green But the husks in there? They have yellow cores.

She definitely looked like she was corrupted when you see her lying dead on the floor if you rewatch the last cut scene.

I believe she was corrupted over time after her experience with the eternal alchemy left her exposed to the dragons corruption.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I think you’re connecting more things to Mordremoth than there really is.

I mean… do we really have any proof that the red vine in the vision was Mordremoth? No, we really don’t. The sketch obviously comes from the vision, so that’s not an additional point to hold but an elongated one.

It could have been a champion. And besides, Glint was blue, Kralkatorrik’s color is purple. So the color of a champion != color of a dragon’s corruption.

And it should be noted: red is completely absent from all creatures and plants in Zone Green and Experimental Lab Green But the husks in there? They have yellow cores.

I wasn’t aware of the yellow cores. Ok, here’s a question. Early on, from CoE discussions, you mentioned a connection between Mordy and Poison. Do you still believe there’s a connection there? I find it interesting no in light of the miasma used in Lion’s Arch. If Mordy does have a connection to poison, then the use of the miasma seems quite appropriate for a champion of Mordy.

I’m kind of wodering to myself if Mordy uses dreams to corrupt. I also get the feeling that Mordy was waiting for someone like Scarlet to show up. That’s why I think there will be more. If I’m right and the trees are minion factories, it’s only reasonable to assume that a few champs would be produced. I’d like to know how Mordy chose and found Scarlet and not someone, or something else.

The nightmare court can’t renounce nightmare, just like every other dragonminion can’t. Now that Mordremoth is awake, he can control the nightmare.

The proof could be, that a sylvari, who is obsessed by the nighmare, is taken to the altar of the ruined city of arah (Arah explo P2) and cured with the ritual since the ritual can cure someone from the obsession of the dragons.