Guild Wars 2

Also the next boss is a giant Watchwork knight, during jubilee all we knew was that she corrupted them into abominations she never made the actual watchwork knights herself just morphed them, so to see a new one that is massive and not an abomination would mean that she created it.

But vector, she didn’t “morph” them through magic, it was a voice command during her speech that triggered the transformation. The Watchwork Knights when being first assembled would’ve had to have been built in with this, if she didn’t herself manufacture the Watchwork Knights, then she at least had people in on the manufacturing of them to ensure that she could have them fall under her command with just a phrase.

Ok well morph is the wrong word, but i was getting at that the new large watchwork knight is coming right from scarlet and not the jubilee this time, so that pretty much confirms she is the one creating them, not saying directly but that they are hers.

Ah ok, I get what you were trying to say now

webtoehobbit.4201:

I’ve kinda wondered if maybe Scarlet gifted the Watchwork Knights to Divinity’s Reach, like she manufactured them and then as a trojan horse kinda thing, “made them” for Divinity’s Reach under the guise of someone else. I mean, in the Tower of Nightmares it seemed like the Watchwork Knights were built in with a voice command protocol to go under Scarlets commanc at the right phrase.

Nope. They’re human-made.

vectorfox.6894:

Also the next boss is a giant Watchwork knight, during jubilee all we knew was that she corrupted them into abominations she never made the actual watchwork knights herself just morphed them, so to see a new one that is massive and not an abomination would mean that she created it.

Hardly.

What Scarlet did during the Jubilee was basically hijacked them and then programmed them to deconstruct and reconstruct into new forms. She literally just took them apart and put them back together in a new form. We saw this during the Closing Ceremony cinematic – during her speech they fell apart and recombined.

Given that months have passed since then, this new giant is likely just a case of her using reverse engineering to create a much larger one.

webtoehobbit.4201:

But vector, she didn’t “morph” them through magic, it was a voice command during her speech that triggered the transformation. The Watchwork Knights when being first assembled would’ve had to have been built in with this, if she didn’t herself manufacture the Watchwork Knights, then she at least had people in on the manufacturing of them to ensure that she could have them fall under her command with just a phrase.

Not really. The “Scribled Diagrams” found in the Tower of Nightmares shows that she was altering the Watchknights after their reveal.

It was a literal case of her hijacking them – there’s no need for her to have been having influence on the manufacturing team at all. There really isn’t a debate for that. What’s called into question is how she hijacked them after they were made and revealed.

It was outright stated by Scott McGough that her attacks on the Queen’s Jubilee were an act of a whim. There was no foreplanning in this. Queen Jennah announced the celebration and how humanity has been tested and (this would have been after the Watchknights were made) Scarlet pretty much responded with “well they haven’t been tested by me!”

Interview where Scott mentions this.

It’s a known fact that Scarlet did not make the Watchknights. What’s not known is how she hijacked them in such a short timeframe.

Why would she want to create a large watchwork knight and not some other large bipedal godzilla, i mean if the watchwork knights are human made, why would she go for the human watchwork design when to me it sounds like she hates humans.

I guess you could say to save time since she already knows exactly how they work but she seems to have so much time on her hands. Or that she finds it fun to see people getting crushed by their own creation.

I concede to that she didn’t make them but why would she choose the design a human made, since she wants to be seen as better then everyone else so going with the human design is weird.

vectorfox.6894:

I guess you could say to save time since she already knows exactly how they work but she seems to have so much time on her hands. Or that she finds it fun to see people getting crushed by their own creation.

The second. She seems to have a . . . delight . . . in twisting what others create to serve a need she has.

You’re trying to find reason and logic from the mind of a madman.

Does that make sense to you?

My guess – if there is any reason and logic to it – is out of practicality. The marionette seems to require being aided by the chains from whatever-is-above-it; as such, having the typical 4-armed 4-legged Twisted Nightmare design wouldn’t be practical (too many chains), while on the flip side the Twisted Mender and Twisted Reaver design wouldn’t work (due to weight). The Twisted Horror is so hunched over the chains would catch on the body.

And if it isn’t a matter of weight, we have the name: Twisted Marionette. It’s intended to be a giant puppet of sorts it seems, thus comes into play the chains. Again, the other forms wouldn’t work well with dangling chains – Nightmare could but has a lot of them, Horror and Reaver would just catch onto itself, and Mender… doesn’t seem practical as a weapon.

Ah… thanks Tobias, should’ve known better when talking about scarlet haha.

If she told me the reason straight in front of my face i probably still wouldn’t get it, so again ill agree, it is silly to try and make sense of this crazy woman thanks Konig.

vectorfox.6894:

Why would she want to create a large watchwork knight and not some other large bipedal godzilla, i mean if the watchwork knights are human made, why would she go for the human watchwork design when to me it sounds like she hates humans.

I suspect this is actually the point. At the Jubilee, she took the crowning achievement of human forays into technomagic, something that the asura representative actually had grudging admiration for, and twisted them into monstrosities. Having her latest creation bear the visage of a Watchknight is a reminder of that. She’s basically looking to add insult to injury.

Another concept I would like to throw out there is demons. I was just reading the GW1 wiki page on them and some of the text really did pop out at me. Keep in mind that I know that there are a lot of counterarguments to this – but it is interesting none-the-less. If she’s not a demon there is the possibility she could have been corrupted by one (maybe the experiment connected her mind to a demon which shared the hallucination/lie with her? Please don’t link this concept to the voiceover in the latest video, ANet have already dismissed that).

The Guild Wars Nightfall Manuscripts

dimensions alien to the physical world, sentient entities scheme of ways to enter the realm of flesh

This would explain her fascination with portals and teleportation (given that some portals connect to the mists). Either she’s trying to bring in a bigger demon army, or her demon master/corrupter is trying to get her to create one so it can enter reality.

The Guild Wars Nightfall Manuscripts

dreaming of the havoc they can wreak. … feast on suffering, despair, and the vital energy of intelligent creatures.

The Guild Wars Nightfall Manuscripts

more than willing to enter into arrangements that allow them to routinely prey on humans and other foolish living creatures.

This explains all of her actions so far – specifically her fascination with Kryta and Jennah. If she is a demon it may also [imaginatively] explain why races such as the Krait were willing to get into cahoots with her (“hey guis, I/my master totally know your Prophets in the mists – we/they hang out together at the sacrificial pit and stuff”).

The Guild Wars Nightfall Manuscripts

They are also ruthlessly intelligent

You don’t say…

The Guild Wars Nightfall Manuscripts

Whether they appear as monstrous humanoids, … they share many of the same aspirations: the strong consume or dominate the weak, reveling in their feasts and victimization.

This would partially explain her physical appearance. While she is definitely is Sylvari she does have some strange characteristics for a Sylvari (those ears).

Another interesting aspect to this whole angle is if you [very liberally/thematically] compare the artwork of the Twisted Watchwork creatures with Stygian creatures and Torment creatures (and more apparently the theme around the naming).

Furthermore, let’s not forget she talked about these phrases from The Metronome: “There’s a secret deep below to find” (the Deep), “A fire is rising you cannot contain” (typical hell/demon theme), “Tyria will burn” (again hell/demon themes).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I’ve always viewed it as “if Scarlet can hijack them so easily, we should not have them in the open for her to do so again until we figure out how she did so or she is taken care of.” Or Scarlet went and hijacked all of them so there were none left for humanity to use.

I would at least hope that Watchknights will be stationed not just around Divinity’s Reach but also certain major human settlements (like Claypool, Shaemoor, and Seraph’s Landing – as these do not get assaulted) once Scarlet is killed.

Rather than their sudden disappearance, I’m more interested in how Scarlet managed to take control of them so easily. Hopefully it won’t boil down to a “she’s just that great” comment (and hopefully it’ll be answered).

Yeah, that is how i fell about it as well, though the disapearence just annoys me.
Can i demand a sidestory about the creation process of the watchknights? That would be great and make them not so “random”.

@ Zamalek
mhm, a nice idea, however that is something demons do in our myths as well.
I would not mind that of course.
The deal with the devil, or a being possessed or influenced by another being is an interesting way to establish a greater evil.
Which also causes the supposed antagonist to be only a victim himself (to a degree of course).

While i like the concept, i hope it is not the case here. If it is not connected to something “classic” GW, it just adds another layer to the whole loose ends we allready have going for.
So yeah, it is a fickle thing

@Zamalek: The issue is that demons don’t corrupt. They’re anarchists and opportunists who just seek to bring chaos. The mention of them being drawn to the living is more in reference to situations like Godslost Swamp where they are drawn to portals opened up to worlds like Tyria. They’ll make deals with those who can help further their chaos-bringing goals, such as t heir allegiance to Abaddon in Nightfall, but so far there’s been no influence of a demon altering the mind of another. The closest we have of such is Rukkassa who was mind-warped (for lack of a better term) by Dhuum (for all we have indication of).

It is important to keep in mind that demons in GW are vastly different from demons as we’re used to them. They don’t come from any Hell. They’re just creatures born of the Mists who have no purpose – so they destroy the purpose of others (at least that’s how I see their anarchistic ways). Razah in Nightfall was a demon too, so not all demons are innately evil either nor twisted half-formed monstrosities as most are (especially Torment demons).

There are also multiple kinds of demons: imps, for example, are demons. Fleshreavers seem to be as well.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

@Zamalek: The issue is that demons don’t corrupt. They’re anarchists and opportunists who just seek to bring chaos.

I wasn’t clear on that one – that’s why I left it open to her being a demon herself (my original edit only had her as a demon until I gave it more thought): again – unlikely. What I am trying to get at though is that she is acting awfully a lot like a GW demon – how to explain it I am not sure.

She isn’t a demon. She’s born from the Pale Tree itself. Just like any other sylvari. This is a cold, hard, undeniable fact.

And I would say any anarchistic figure would act a lot like a demon, since that is, in essence, what demons are: anarchists.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

She isn’t a demon. She’s born from the Pale Tree itself. Just like any other sylvari. This is a cold, hard, undeniable fact.

She was a sylvari.

She could be a vessel currently.

As far as we know, the only way a spirit can inhabit a body is the creation of undead. And demons are physical beings, so demonic possessions are not really possible in GW.

No more than “any mesmer mindcontrol” is at least, which has yet to be done either (just telepathy).

I’m not sure it’s so easy to rule out some demonic influence. Kanaxai in Factions, for instance, while not actually able to possess its victims per se, could certainly drive them insane and, it was believed by at least some NPCs, transform them into demons (oni) themselves. I could see it being the case that Ceara involuntarily made contact with a Kanaxai-level demon in the Mists, who has been manipulating her since.

And if the entity was somehow connected to events in GW1… that might well explain the dislike towards humans for “always getting in the way”.

Fair point. I had forgotten about Kanaxai as there’s never really anything that links him to the Mists. Nothing but mechanics really proves him to be a demon and there’s nothing else like him but his Aspects and Oni.

‘Demons are more than creatures of the Mists—they are made from the Mists themselves, bits of etheric matter that have gained malignant sentience and power. Whether they appear as monstrous humanoids, bestial abominations, or radically inhuman horrors, they share many of the same aspirations: the strong consume or dominate the weak, reveling in their feasts and victimization. As they are not native to the real world, demons hold an abiding hatred of its denizens. They are also ruthlessly intelligent, more than willing to enter into arrangements that allow them to routinely prey on humans and other foolish living creatures.’ – manuscripts. ..

Granted I don’t subscribe to this theory that is kanax and scarlet. Also demons can be born from demons, I would think the would be inclusive to those who have traversed out of the mists.

’Sometimes souls are not enough. In dimensions alien to the physical world, sentient entities scheme of ways to enter the realm of flesh, dreaming of the havoc they can wreak ’

Dimensions also speaks of mists + others undefined.

The patch hits and one of the infos the priory gives us is that she gatheres the power of the elements. so far she has earth, fire, water and air…
Yep she is definetly calling captain planet

Then they used the same spokesperson to poke fun at us theorycrafters, in which they point out the most prominent theories… bravo…

well in the end this first segment did not tell us anything new, but rather took a lot of wind out of my sails.

i find it rather weird that her lab is right beneath the priory. That makes no sense in my opinion. They should have enough tech and magic there to find her.
Though that could exactly be the case why they did not find her, too much dangerous magic around

We don’t have to worry about her trying to summon captain planet because there is NO way she is getting heart…

FlamingFoxx.1305:

We don’t have to worry about her trying to summon captain planet because there is NO way she is getting heart…

Wasn’t there something in the Twilight Assault update called the clock heart?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

FlamingFoxx.1305:

We don’t have to worry about her trying to summon captain planet because there is NO way she is getting heart…

Wasn’t there something in the Twilight Assault update called the clock heart?

Yes, the big mechanical Oakheart If I recall?

So I wonder how long we have a background story on the main site that explains the new Asura charterer Taimi a bit more. Other then she is fascinated by Scarlet methods even though she knows it’s for nefarious purposes.

Oh my god O_O. SHE HAS HEART.
We’re doomed if she summons Captain Planet. (What was the corrupted version? Captain Pollution)

Nah, she’s already done the summoning:

Captain Lorekill!

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Nah, she’s already done the summoning:

Captain Lorekill!

Still trying to figure out what lore she destroys, actually.

Scarlet saw at least two things in her ecstatic state. The first was the Pale Tree. The second was the thorn vine growing around it. Could it be that like the Pale Tree, the vine is also sentient and psychically aware?

She may be battling with it as it tries to overtake her. In a sense, she may be wrestling with the Nightmare. Although she may consider herself Soundless, clearly her integrity is being assaulted by a powerful psychic being.

Still, it feels safe to consider an ED the main contender. Scarlet is no psycher – certainly nothing like Queen Jennah. I can’t imagine that she could hold out forever….

So you’re suggesting that Ceara is being invaded by a sentient Scarlet Briar? Thus resulting in the name change.

That could be interesting. The description of the red vine had always reminded me of the Pale Tree’s Circle in the Grove, but red instead of white. Maybe what’s taken over Ceara – perhaps even what’s causing the nightmare – is a “second Pale Tree” which is just inherently evil for some reason (as opposed to being good like the Pale Tree). That would be interesting… a pale tree trying to take over another’s sylvari via utilizing the Dream. Though the Dream doesn’t seem innately tied to all such trees so it may not be Malyck’s tree if so.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Nah, she’s already done the summoning:

Captain Lorekill!

Still trying to figure out what lore she destroys, actually.

Well, really, it depends on the level of uncertainty and confusion created that argues whether she actually destroys the lore. For example: The dredge. They’re in a revolution and hate slavers and the charr, yet would work with the Flame Legion (known slavers and charr) for still unexplained reasons beyond “we want power!” And the krait. How would she have gotten the obelisk shard? Why did they not simply gut her once they had the shards? Just to be the tip of the iceberg.

The Nightmare first corrupted Faolain in Orr realm of Zhaitan. The Nightmare Court only had the Nightmare as an ideal and when Faolain joined the Court her Nightmare allowed her to hijack the place of the Court’s Nightmare.

The source of Scarlet’s corruption is in Mount Maelstrom which is near Tequal the Sunless…. Zhaitan has corrupted both Scarlet and Faolain! With Zhaitan dead it’s most strongest Champion is likely trying to absorb Zhaitan’s power….. That’s if Zhaitan isn’t dead!

What is Scarlet drilling out I wonder….. We know that ArenaNet mentioned the Jungle Dragon being connected to the Maguuma Jungle so Scarlet obviously isn’t seeking him….

This is a long but interesting read if you have the time

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1vr5ec/scarlet_destroying_or_surviving_theory/

Mickey Frogeater.1470:

The Nightmare Court only had the Nightmare as an ideal
[…]
when Faolain joined the Court her Nightmare allowed her to hijack the place of the Court’s Nightmare.
[…]
The source of Scarlet’s corruption is in Mount Maelstrom

Sources on these things?

Because while Faolain had (supposedly – the source for it was lost) first encountered the Nightmare in Orr, Cadeyrn is said to have fully brought her into Nightmare. That would mean the Nightmare Court hijacked Faolain, not the other way around, and that they easily had a Nightmare influence before Faolain.

And I have seen nothing tying Scarlet to very being in or around Mount Maelstrom (which is directly tied to Primordus, given its own apparent champion – though not a dragon and poorly named).

Gnat.9405:

This is a long but interesting read if you have the time

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1vr5ec/scarlet_destroying_or_surviving_theory/

I was pointed to that. I felt like pointing out the numerous flaws – like the fact that we know the karka and djinn, two sentient races, survived, and the fact that the Elder Dragons didn’t intentionally leave any survivors nor do they act to any role of creation of life (confusion on the wiki’s wording I’m sure).

But I just didn’t feel like figuring out my reddit password.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

So you’re suggesting that Ceara is being invaded by a sentient Scarlet Briar? Thus resulting in the name change.

That could be interesting. The description of the red vine had always reminded me of the Pale Tree’s Circle in the Grove, but red instead of white. Maybe what’s taken over Ceara – perhaps even what’s causing the nightmare – is a “second Pale Tree” which is just inherently evil for some reason (as opposed to being good like the Pale Tree). That would be interesting… a pale tree trying to take over another’s sylvari via utilizing the Dream. Though the Dream doesn’t seem innately tied to all such trees so it may not be Malyck’s tree if so.

I just had a random thought. Now I know you have said in the past Konig, as it’s a part of lore, that the Sylvari are immune to Dragon Corruption. But what if Mordremoth is able to corrupt through the Dream? I mean, lets go back and remember that starting mission when you play a Sylvari, what did we fight? A jungle dragon…. Maybe Sylvari that are already awakened cannot be corrupted, but reading Scarlet’s journal entries, seems like something was attached to her upon her awakening. I mean according to the “What Scarlet Saw” story, she came right out of the tree a little off. Maybe Mordremoth is gaining strength as he awakens and the stronger he is the more influence he has over the Dream? And maybe Scarlet is just the first one that he got through to? I don’t know, just a random thought I had.

“I mean according to the “What Scarlet Saw” story, she came right out of the tree a little off.”

That is an interesting observation. Mender Serimon seems to have tried to help Ceara, but she refused his assistance. Was Ceara injured by the Nightmare whilst Dreaming? If so, what kind of injury could she have sustained that would lead to a descent into her current state of mind?

Gnat.9405:

This is a long but interesting read if you have the time

http://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/1vr5ec/scarlet_destroying_or_surviving_theory/

Wow. That’s likely the best theory on Scarlet that I have seen (and one of the best lore posts that I have read). It makes complete sense given how the dragons were “avoided” last time – extreme and drastic measures (for the uneducated, the bloodstones were created to avoid the dragons).

That means that Scarlet isn’t a hero or an anti-hero – she’s just not our hero (which actually makes her an interesting character).

There is a major stumbling block with slushley’s theory though; if she is making her own 6 races why does she even bother with the rest of us? One answer could be that she sees us a test subjects for her 6 races – proof of concept if you will; alternatively our magic use could be riling up the dragons in a way that interferes with her plans (if we were not around she would have more time to prepare or could reliably manipulate the dragons by laying honeypots cough magical energy nodes cough or something).

Jaken.6801:

The patch hits and one of the infos the priory gives us is that she gatheres the power of the elements. so far she has earth, fire, water and air…
Yep she is definetly calling captain planet

That kinda reminds me of the golem battles outside Rata Sum. They have one golem for each element, and there is also one supposedly programed to have emotions. When an Inquest members comes up to challenge them with his “unlimited energy golem”, the other golemancers combine their five golems into a META-golem.

I think Scarlet is simply receiving whispers from one of the Elder Dragons, and may be taking the battle to him. I think in the long run, she might end up being a hero (as I predicted earlier), and we may end up fighting side by side.

The idea of the Pale Tree being a (freed) Dragon Champion of Mordremoth sounds like nonsense to me still. There’s just too many arguments against it. But the idea of Mordremoth trying to corrupt Sylvari through nightmare sounds like a credible hypothesis.

This still raises the question why Scarlet created all new races to fight an Elder Dragon. Why not simply use the races that are already there? Or does she perhaps think that we need more armies?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Or does she perhaps think that we need more armies?

Possibly the current armies simply don’t have what it takes in the “you really need arms to be able to do this, but you are a worm” way.

• Dredge: expert miners – Primordus.
• Krait: expert swimmers – DSD.
• Charr: expert warriors – any dragon.
• Pirates: experts at living in harsh times (and also look at Lions Arch) – the times after dragons lay waste.
• Watchknights: technically not living and therefore cannot be corrupted – any dragon.
• Steam Creatures: even though they do have living cores maybe they are protected from corruption by their shell, also they are alien to our dragons and may present a challenge – any dragon.
• Sylvari: expert toastmasters? (Makes no sense, maybe she just wants them involved because she is one)

So, someone got into her Lab and we see some insights into her mind.

One point goes to whoever thought “she is being possed/influenced by some being.”
It appears someone was whispering to her in her dreams, which let her go crazy.
She just wants it to stop. Poor soul… No i do not have much sympathy here.
In the end she is bascily The Master
So yeah, she wants to meet the voices in her head.

(btw. Who wrote that journal… i mean “death, destruction and… destiny”? Quite the quick shift in direction there. Feels a bit forced just for the 3Ds.)

Moving on to her plans. She thought of several other Alliances, whichs she dismissed. I think i even saw a Quaggan/Centaur Alliance…

Then we got her video and oh boy, i think this is not what i was expecting… well i did, sorta, but not this weird.
She is building a giant drill. (Drills are awesome by the way) Which looks like a toy i had as a child…
However i do not think this thing can drill very deep. It would only be able to scratch the surface, but with her portal tech she might get a a longer drill down there like they do with deep sea drilling.

Then we have a map with arrows, pointing toward marked areas. In my opinion this looks like her attack plans. So yeah, i expect an all out attack on LA and the Order Headquarters.
We wanted that in the CDI, didn`t we? I hope the Ordrs do actually call their members then, before we take back LA.

Her thumper locations thumping and thumping and thumping…
Hey, what if she goes along no ley lines, but fault lines. Who wants to see some big earthquake pulling Tyria appart?

referencing this Video

(Sorry for the links, i just could not help myself today )

zamalek.2154:

• Watchknights: technically not living and therefore cannot be corrupted – any dragon.
• Steam Creatures: even though they do have living cores maybe they are protected from corruption by their shell, also they are alien to our dragons and may present a challenge – any dragon.

As much as I disagree with the theory, I’d have to point this out:

Elder Dragons corrupt more than living flesh. They corrupt metals, soil, plants, and all that. Just go to the Branded and spend some time there, especially in the mines in Fields of Ruin.

Robot != immune to corruption

Jaken.6801:

(btw. Who wrote that journal… i mean “death, destruction and… destiny”? Quite the quick shift in direction there. Feels a bit forced just for the 3Ds.)

If they just wanted 3 Ds, they would have gone with Despair I’m sure. But I think the last one was meant to be uplifting. It shows her going towards the vision, to me at least.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Well, really, it depends on the level of uncertainty and confusion created that argues whether she actually destroys the lore. For example: The dredge. They’re in a revolution and hate slavers and the charr, yet would work with the Flame Legion (known slavers and charr) for still unexplained reasons beyond “we want power!” And the krait. How would she have gotten the obelisk shard? Why did they not simply gut her once they had the shards? Just to be the tip of the iceberg.

The dredge also pick help from the Inquest too, don’t forget. Also known slavers from some conversations you can hear in Sparkfly Fen. (Paraphrased: “Did you know the krait take slaves?” “Pfft, only the intellectually superior should be allowed to take slaves.”) We also have a blind spot on how she convinced parts of the two factions to ally; we simply don’t know what she did to convince them it was a good idea aside from the fact it left some dredge bitter about how she “fast talked” them into it.

As for the krait, we have another big blind spot on how exactly she managed that meeting. I could think of ways she might have done it, starting with basically inviting them to try to gut her but if they succeeded the shards would be lost to them. (In other words, blatantly bluffing her way through with just enough to make them think it was more useful to leave her alone “for now” and when the Toxic Alliance worked, “maybe she’s more useful to us as something other than a corpse”.)

I agree, the blind spots are annoying to look at and go “now why…” but I’ve had that experience a lot here between the two games.

For instance: Why did the krait go from an incredibly adaptive species to more fully ‘locked in’? They were seriously almost more dangerous with the broad options of “Metamorphosis” from Eye of the North, and had access to much wider spectrums of magic.

At that point, the dredge were enslaving themselves – the ones who allied with the Inquest were just the leaders. And Scarlet came after this, after the revolution had begun and the dredge once more freed themselves (with outside help). How she got them to work with her is known – thanks to Angel in a recent livestream talk and responses on the forum; she told both the Flame Legion and the dredge that she got the other side with her already when she didn’t, and they accepted because of that and they needed what the other side offered. But what doesn’t make sense, to me, is why the dredge would agree to work with the Flame Legion even though they wanted fire magic – there’s plenty of other groups with fire magic out there that they could have gone to.

That doesn’t change the fact of why they kept working with her after getting the shards (which we know they did). Or why they still work with her at the Marionette area. Their promised prophet is dead, why still work with her? The Molten Alliance failed in their assaults against Hoelbrak and the Black Citadel, why stick around?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

At that point, the dredge were enslaving themselves – the ones who allied with the Inquest were just the leaders. And Scarlet came after this, after the revolution had begun and the dredge once more freed themselves (with outside help). How she got them to work with her is known – thanks to Angel in a recent livestream talk and responses on the forum; she told both the Flame Legion and the dredge that she got the other side with her already when she didn’t, and they accepted because of that and they needed what the other side offered. But what doesn’t make sense, to me, is why the dredge would agree to work with the Flame Legion even though they wanted fire magic – there’s plenty of other groups with fire magic out there that they could have gone to.

I’m going to go with the interpretation not all dredge stayed in, only those who felt it was worth the risk. I mean, we’ve seen before the dredge may not like outsiders but they’re not all united in how to go about handling things. (See, the Priory initiation mission for the norn – there is one dredge who is basically almost executed for going “this is a stupid plan, and you’re going to all die stupidly assaulting the Priory headquarters itself”.)

The Flame Legion on the other hand, from what I recall of the Whispers dispatches you collect, doesn’t see the dredge as any kind of threat but rather someone to use for the sonic technology. And some of them paid the price when dredge turned out to have some potential for using the fire magic. Or whatever it is the Flame Legion actually uses . . .

That doesn’t change the fact of why they kept working with her after getting the shards (which we know they did). Or why they still work with her at the Marionette area. Their promised prophet is dead, why still work with her? The Molten Alliance failed in their assaults against Hoelbrak and the Black Citadel, why stick around?

The promised Prophet is dead by the hands of those who oppose them, not by Scarlet’s doing. So naturally all it does is tie the fanatics of the Toxic Alliance to Scarlet a little more since all she needs to do is go “stick with me and you can have vengeance”.

I say “fanatics of the Toxic Alliance” because it’s possible, much as with the dredge, not all krait signed on. They may be unrepentant and definitely evil but they are (probably) not unified under one mind. I don’t think there’s anything other than dragons’ minions who are completely and definitely in sync with their own faction. (And even then, I wonder about Sons of Svanir vs Icebrood . . .)

I would like to recall some things from the “What Scarlet Saw” short story and see how it fits with our updates on the story so far. Some parts of the story stand out, though I still can’t make full connections with what’s going on in the story so far.

When Scarlet was in Omadd’s machine she heard the Pale Tree’s voice saying: “Stop, my child. Please: go no further. In seeking to comprehend the forces that shape us, you will unleash them. Society cannot withstand that.”.

What forces is the Pale Tree talking about? What exactly does she mean by shape us? At first glance when you read it, you’d think shaping means defining how they act. Which as far as we know, what defines the morals, for lack of a better word, of the Sylvari are the teachings of the Ventari tablet. BUT, that wouldn’t make sense with the following part that says ‘you will unleash them. Society cannot withstand that.’

We know that Ceara went into the machine and came out someone different, now this lends some credit towards the theory of the thorn vine being a sentient being. What if what happened is exactly what the Pale Tree told Ceara would happen. She would unleash them, and this is what led her tranformation into Scarlet Briar. We know that when she was in the machine she saw the thorn vines around the Pale Tree and she ended up becoming the vines themselves wrapped around the Pale Tree.

Fast forward a bit and then the Pale Tree tells Ceara this: “Now do you see? If you are not one with what you were born to be, you are lost. Worse, you are dangerous.”.

To me this feels more like Ceara found out more than anyone was supposed to know about the Pale Tree, the true origins behind the Pale Tree and then the Pale Tree turned on her deeming her dangerous.

Finally comes the part after Ceara’s transformation into Scarlet Briar: Scarlet giggled as she raised her hand to her face and watched the red thorn vine chase itself between her fingers. “So much makes sense now. The Pale Tree, the Nightmare Court, Caithe and Faolain…it’s all part of a grand design."

Now this brings up two points regarding this ‘Grand Design’, the first is that all four are meant to be part of a grand design playing a certain role. So the “shapers” (I’ll call them shapers as the pale tree said the forces that shape them) meant for there to be the pale tree and a nightmare court. The second part which ties in with the more recent living story updates, which is Scarlet saying that she knows Caithe’s secret.

Do we ever find out what Caithe’s Wyld Hunt is? What was her true purpose in the world? Some people assumed that the secret was Caithe and Faolain sharing feelings but this points that they’re both major parts in some grand design that no one yet understands or even notices.

One last addition though, is there any correlation between the thorn that Kasmeer was stung by and the thorn revolving around Scarlet? If the thorn vine was a direct relation to the shapers then we might have ourselves an infiltration through Kasmeer going on right now.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

At that point, the dredge were enslaving themselves – the ones who allied with the Inquest were just the leaders. And Scarlet came after this, after the revolution had begun and the dredge once more freed themselves (with outside help).

I don’t think the latest revolution has come to completion myself – Sorrow’s Embrace may have been liberated, but the moleteriate seems to hold on elsewhere (see, for instance, the rebellion in Frostgorge). I’ve always interpreted it as some of the moleteriate holdouts agreeing to the Molten Alliance with the hope that the new magic would help them in regaining control.

Which explains why they’d go with the Flame Legion for that magic, rather than one of the races that helped undermine them in Sorrow’s Embrace.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

That doesn’t change the fact of why they kept working with her after getting the shards (which we know they did). Or why they still work with her at the Marionette area. Their promised prophet is dead, why still work with her? The Molten Alliance failed in their assaults against Hoelbrak and the Black Citadel, why stick around?

That is assuming they have a choice. It’s not far-fetched to assume whatever has ‘infected’ Caera and is ‘guiding’ her would have been voluntarily spread through her followers.

Scarlet herself is proving less and less of an individual threat, yet all her factions seem to follow her, in great numbers, out of fear. So what do they fear when they seem to be the bulk of her strength? Maybe they too can hear the whispers… They might not fear her as a person, but whatever she stands for.

I expect she starts out with promises which enticed the factions she made. Then by giving them power, she also exposes them to the influence of ‘the powerful entity’. After the failure of her experiments, which she didn’t care about in the first place apparently, those ‘infected’ by her influence will be broken to aid her cause anyway.

I just want to know how Kiel and Evon will play into the story.

I think Scarlet is the jungle dragon;s champion.

Evans.6347:

Scarlet herself is proving less and less of an individual threat, yet all her factions seem to follow her, in great numbers, out of fear. So what do they fear when they seem to be the bulk of her strength? Maybe they too can hear the whispers… They might not fear her as a person, but whatever she stands for.

Or maybe she has revealed a very real threat to them, that we are too blind to see. I don’t think those alliances follow her because they are cowered into doing so. I think they follow her, because a very real threat has been revealed to them, and they have joined her cause willingly.