Guild Wars 2

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

However, there’s one line from What Scarlet Saw that still puzzles me:

“Please: go no further. In seeking to comprehend the forces that shape us, you will unleash them. Society cannot withstand that.”

The forces that shape us. What could she mean by that? We are told that:

• The forces that shape her were some how unleashed.
• What ever took hold of Ceara, was something she brought in with her.
• Ceara ignored the Pale Tree’s warnings and went her own way.
• The isolation module temporarily liberated her mind, and blocked it off from outside influences.

It could be that Mordremoth is some how involved with injecting Nightmares into the Dream (something Konig already suggested a long time ago), and that she brought something of that Nightmare with her into the isolation chamber. Without the calling of the Pale Tree to suppress this force, it may have taken hold of her mind, and formed an alter ego.

A lot of people take that line to mean “the forces that shape sylvari” and just relate it to the Dream or the origins of the Pale Tree.

But what if she means “the forces that shape this world”? Or even just “the forces that shape us living in the world” (the races)?

Could mean that she’s referring to the Mists, or even the things that make the world what it is – ley lines, and Elder Dragons. Not related to the sylvari from the Pale Tree’s line, but related to the world. The “us” that is everything. Could even be the Six Gods, if the theory that Melandru made the sylvari – and what with humanity’s influence on charr, human, potentially centaur and other race’s history – is true.

I’m betting on the Mists if so. I mean, souls go to the Mists when the body dies right? What if the door that Omadd’s machine “forced open” was that very thing? The Voice of Koda and Havrouns are capable of such things – having one’s mind go into the Mists.

So then… what forces are in the Mists that are trying to get out? Anyone remember the original mention of the future of Halloween? There was mention that the Lunatic Court’s actions would attract “someone else” – with this past Halloween, a lot of folks, myself included, thought Edrick was the “someone else” but what if the original theories – Menzies, Dhuum, Odran, etc. – were closer to truth?

Slap in what came the Wintersday after this hint: "Humanity is doomed if we insist on spending our time with such foolish festivities rather than preparing for the inevitable darkness on the horizon. ":http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Operation:_Crush_Spirits

What if ArenaNet’s decided to return to these? Makes the Dhuum theory more plausible. And Colin said that a small theory got it right… and the Dhuum theory is rather small on this forum at least.

Well that is a very interesting theory. I think you’re on to something there. What lurks in the Mists? Did something sneak into her mind from the Mists? That’s certainly the forces that shape us indeed. Good call Konig.

Although I’m very hesitant to call Dhuum or Menzies. That seems like wishful thinking to me. The dragon in her lair indicates that we are dealing with a dragon here. But perhaps it is a dragon who fights through the mind? (which is another pet theory of yours concerning Mordremoth. I lean more in that direction.)

I really like the Dhuum theory, but why implment this storyline with a Sylvari? It just makes it more complicated for me to piece this together with Dhuum because we have to keep The Dream and everything that comes with it in mind. Therefore I think it isnt Dhuum behind all this, while I woulnd’t mind it if this storyline is going there.

Well, if it’s dragons with minds in general, then it’s Jormag. If it’s dragons through the Dream – which fit with sylvariness – then it’d be Mordremoth. From what we know on the dragons at least.

Honestly, the more I think on it, the more I think that Dhuum is more reasonable. On top of what I mentioned before..

• He may have escaped from his imprisonment, what with him breaking free repeatedly.
• It’d be a way for ArenaNet to introduce the other races’ views on the Six Gods thus making the topic of the gods less human-centric – a chance that was ruined with Orr. Would also act as a means to break the sylvari agnosticism and evolve the race that way. Yet at the same time won’t bring out all Six Gods.
• Dhuum (or his forces) have done this before on a lesser scale.
• Dhuum would likely be very interested in returning to Tyria, and he was part of the Halloween stuff.
• Would allow delving into Godslost Swamp and Reaper’s Gate anomalies.

Nah, what happened with the “leaked living story” thread? :C The OP got deleted and the topic followed it.

From the wiki on Elder Dragons:

Trivia
Dragons were not always the main antagonists of Guild Wars 2. According to The Making of Guild Wars 2 book, original drafts for story included demons and angelic beings descending to the world to judge it.

What if they would return to this with the Living Story? Demons are in almost any fantasy capable of possessing.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Well, if it’s dragons with minds in general, then it’s Jormag. If it’s dragons through the Dream – which fit with sylvariness – then it’d be Mordremoth. From what we know on the dragons at least.

Honestly, the more I think on it, the more I think that Dhuum is more reasonable. On top of what I mentioned before..

• He may have escaped from his imprisonment, what with him breaking free repeatedly.
• It’d be a way for ArenaNet to introduce the other races’ views on the Six Gods thus making the topic of the gods less human-centric – a chance that was ruined with Orr. Would also act as a means to break the sylvari agnosticism and evolve the race that way. Yet at the same time won’t bring out all Six Gods.
• Dhuum (or his forces) have done this before on a lesser scale.
• Dhuum would likely be very interested in returning to Tyria, and he was part of the Halloween stuff.
• Would allow delving into Godslost Swamp and Reaper’s Gate anomalies.

Just tacking on one thing my friend was telling me the other day, he thinks that Dhuum is very much free and is very much kittened at a certain undead dragon which is why the temple of Grenth was resisting the priest, more of a “he’s not the real god and you won’t be using undead magic” sorta thing.

Idk how much of that has been confirmed or denied since I went and did the whole “blow up Melandrus temple with a searing cauldron” in the PS instead of going to grenths…

That being said I do very much think that Dhuum is involved, and I really hope I’m right =D.

Jelle.4623:

From the wiki on Elder Dragons:

Trivia
Dragons were not always the main antagonists of Guild Wars 2. According to The Making of Guild Wars 2 book, original drafts for story included demons and angelic beings descending to the world to judge it.

What if they would return to this with the Living Story? Demons are in almost any fantasy capable of possessing.

Demons are already established in GW and aside from the unknown-origins-now-dead Kanaxai, there’s no evidence of demons being capable of possessing. At least no more than mesmers would be capable of. Closest we’d get is the aforelinked case of Dhuum influencing the mind of a Forgotten.

Durzlla.6295:

Just tacking on one thing my friend was telling me the other day, he thinks that Dhuum is very much free and is very much kittened at a certain undead dragon which is why the temple of Grenth was resisting the priest, more of a “he’s not the real god and you won’t be using undead magic” sorta thing.

Idk how much of that has been confirmed or denied since I went and did the whole “blow up Melandrus temple with a searing cauldron” in the PS instead of going to grenths…

That being said I do very much think that Dhuum is involved, and I really hope I’m right =D.

The Cathedral of Silence is said to hold two unique things that the rest of Orr lacks:

• Zhaitan’s magic is akin to Grenth’s – it’s in-game theory that’s the cause of the lesser corruption. One of the statues of Grenth, the one in Drowned Split or w/e it’s called in western Malchor’s Leap, has the same kind of lack of corruption.
• It’s said to be half in the Mists – which I think is the cause, given the ties between the Forgotten and the Mists, as well as the similarities between the Dream and the Mists, and finally the fact that no Elder Dragon has – to our knowledge – corrupted anything in the Mists (Zhaitan has pulled souls from the Mists and then corrupted them; Jormag has access to the Mists via Sons of Svanir, but neither has corrupted something within the Mists – Snowblind Fractal doesn’t really count, I would argue, because it’s the Mists copying corruption, not corruption affecting the Mists).

Dhuum is said to have hunted down those that managed to escape death. I don’t think he could go “no undead!” and thus there were no undead able to be made, but rather that he could tell when such would happen and he’d hunt down all undead and kill them himself (or with his agents/followers).

Also, visiting Grenth’s cathedral was after the split where you go to blow up Melandru’s – it’s the split after, where you can go visit Romke’s ghost or go to the Cathedral of Grenth.

It’s been a while, so my memory may be foggy, but in the Protect the Mists storyline, wasn’t the spike used to pin the havroun’s spirit said to be a corrupted part of the mists?

Erukk.1408:

This is why we need those short stories back. Even now, we’re picking out little details to spin theories out of. What Scarlet Saw seems to be holding all sorts of little details and foreshadowing we’re only seeing now.

NEED MOER SHROT STOREIS!!!!

This is all reason why What Scarlet Saw needed to be in the game, not a short story. It’s the catalyst that starts the entire Living Story plot. The story shouldn’t be reserved for people who read the short stories, especially when it’s as important as What Scarlet Saw.

What Scarlet Saw could ideally be shown in game via a chain quest (talk to each of her mentors) and then finish up talking to the Pale Tree. She shows you a vision of What Scarlet Saw in a similar style to the sylvari creation scene up to the point where Scarlet severs the connection (the two cinematics from the Tower – Kasmeer removing the veil, and the tower toppling – neither of these moments are as crucial to the story as Scarlets experience in Omadd’s device). This roots Scarlet in the world, it allows players to learn about her from her masters (it also means her masters recognise that she existed early on and creates a familiarity within Tyria about her story by retracing her journey as Ceara – while in the area players can look at the hylek tribe and interact with the environment Scarlet came from – an advantage of an MMO that is wasted by having this story on the website) and it gets more of the players on the same page when it comes to Scarlet’s history and understanding .

I like the short stories, but I like the stories to make it into the game. Taimi doesn’t have a short story, yet we’ve already learned so much about her from the game. That’s the right way to do it imo.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

It’s been a while, so my memory may be foggy, but in the Protect the Mists storyline, wasn’t the spike used to pin the havroun’s spirit said to be a corrupted part of the mists?

Hmm. Yes. I seem to have forgotten that part.

Well, thorns.

Shiren.9532:

Erukk.1408:

This is why we need those short stories back. Even now, we’re picking out little details to spin theories out of. What Scarlet Saw seems to be holding all sorts of little details and foreshadowing we’re only seeing now.

NEED MOER SHROT STOREIS!!!!

This is all reason why What Scarlet Saw needed to be in the game, not a short story. It’s the catalyst that starts the entire Living Story plot. The story shouldn’t be reserved for people who read the short stories, especially when it’s as important as What Scarlet Saw.

What Scarlet Saw could ideally be shown in game via a chain quest (talk to each of her mentors) and then finish up talking to the Pale Tree. She shows you a vision of What Scarlet Saw in a similar style to the sylvari creation scene up to the point where Scarlet severs the connection (the two cinematics from the Tower – Kasmeer removing the veil, and the tower toppling – neither of these moments are as crucial to the story as Scarlets experience in Omadd’s device). This roots Scarlet in the world, it allows players to learn about her from her masters (it also means her masters recognise that she existed early on and creates a familiarity within Tyria about her story by retracing her journey as Ceara – while in the area players can look at the hylek tribe and interact with the environment Scarlet came from – an advantage of an MMO that is wasted by having this story on the website) and it gets more of the players on the same page when it comes to Scarlet’s history and understanding .

I like the short stories, but I like the stories to make it into the game. Taimi doesn’t have a short story, yet we’ve already learned so much about her from the game. That’s the right way to do it imo.

A pretty major problem with your idea, at least 2 of the mentors are dead so… There goes that whole “meeting the mentors” thing.

Durzlla.6295:

Shiren.9532:

Erukk.1408:

This is why we need those short stories back. Even now, we’re picking out little details to spin theories out of. What Scarlet Saw seems to be holding all sorts of little details and foreshadowing we’re only seeing now.

NEED MOER SHROT STOREIS!!!!

This is all reason why What Scarlet Saw needed to be in the game, not a short story. It’s the catalyst that starts the entire Living Story plot. The story shouldn’t be reserved for people who read the short stories, especially when it’s as important as What Scarlet Saw.

What Scarlet Saw could ideally be shown in game via a chain quest (talk to each of her mentors) and then finish up talking to the Pale Tree. She shows you a vision of What Scarlet Saw in a similar style to the sylvari creation scene up to the point where Scarlet severs the connection (the two cinematics from the Tower – Kasmeer removing the veil, and the tower toppling – neither of these moments are as crucial to the story as Scarlets experience in Omadd’s device). This roots Scarlet in the world, it allows players to learn about her from her masters (it also means her masters recognise that she existed early on and creates a familiarity within Tyria about her story by retracing her journey as Ceara – while in the area players can look at the hylek tribe and interact with the environment Scarlet came from – an advantage of an MMO that is wasted by having this story on the website) and it gets more of the players on the same page when it comes to Scarlet’s history and understanding .

I like the short stories, but I like the stories to make it into the game. Taimi doesn’t have a short story, yet we’ve already learned so much about her from the game. That’s the right way to do it imo.

A pretty major problem with your idea, at least 2 of the mentors are dead so… There goes that whole “meeting the mentors” thing.

there was no reason for Asagai to be dead, so that rules out half your point. The only gap that would leave is Omadd, which is the part they wanted to keep mysterious. There’s no reason they couldn’t have done it that way, and it seems like they’re trying to change it now- Beigarth and Councilor Yahk both have dialogue pertaining to Scarlet’s apprentice stage theseadays.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Durzlla.6295:

Shiren.9532:

Erukk.1408:

This is why we need those short stories back. Even now, we’re picking out little details to spin theories out of. What Scarlet Saw seems to be holding all sorts of little details and foreshadowing we’re only seeing now.

NEED MOER SHROT STOREIS!!!!

This is all reason why What Scarlet Saw needed to be in the game, not a short story. It’s the catalyst that starts the entire Living Story plot. The story shouldn’t be reserved for people who read the short stories, especially when it’s as important as What Scarlet Saw.

What Scarlet Saw could ideally be shown in game via a chain quest (talk to each of her mentors) and then finish up talking to the Pale Tree. She shows you a vision of What Scarlet Saw in a similar style to the sylvari creation scene up to the point where Scarlet severs the connection (the two cinematics from the Tower – Kasmeer removing the veil, and the tower toppling – neither of these moments are as crucial to the story as Scarlets experience in Omadd’s device). This roots Scarlet in the world, it allows players to learn about her from her masters (it also means her masters recognise that she existed early on and creates a familiarity within Tyria about her story by retracing her journey as Ceara – while in the area players can look at the hylek tribe and interact with the environment Scarlet came from – an advantage of an MMO that is wasted by having this story on the website) and it gets more of the players on the same page when it comes to Scarlet’s history and understanding .

I like the short stories, but I like the stories to make it into the game. Taimi doesn’t have a short story, yet we’ve already learned so much about her from the game. That’s the right way to do it imo.

A pretty major problem with your idea, at least 2 of the mentors are dead so… There goes that whole “meeting the mentors” thing.

there was no reason for Asagai to be dead, so that rules out half your point. The only gap that would leave is Omadd, which is the part they wanted to keep mysterious. There’s no reason they couldn’t have done it that way, and it seems like they’re trying to change it now- Beigarth and Councilor Yahk both have dialogue pertaining to Scarlet’s apprentice stage theseadays.

How does it make no sense? She’s an old charr whose warband is dead and the last apprentice she had bailed on her before she even finished teaching her what she knew…. As Rox said, she’d rather die in the field than die from age, and she sure as hell didn’t have much left going on.

I mean hell I called that she was dead a while ago, charr society and all…. And I’m pretty sure those NPCs had dialogue for scarlet for quite some time now, no one bothered to go out and talk to them though because they didn’t have a golden starburst screaming at them to do so.

Durzlla.6295:

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Durzlla.6295:

Shiren.9532:

Erukk.1408:

This is why we need those short stories back. Even now, we’re picking out little details to spin theories out of. What Scarlet Saw seems to be holding all sorts of little details and foreshadowing we’re only seeing now.

NEED MOER SHROT STOREIS!!!!

This is all reason why What Scarlet Saw needed to be in the game, not a short story. It’s the catalyst that starts the entire Living Story plot. The story shouldn’t be reserved for people who read the short stories, especially when it’s as important as What Scarlet Saw.

What Scarlet Saw could ideally be shown in game via a chain quest (talk to each of her mentors) and then finish up talking to the Pale Tree. She shows you a vision of What Scarlet Saw in a similar style to the sylvari creation scene up to the point where Scarlet severs the connection (the two cinematics from the Tower – Kasmeer removing the veil, and the tower toppling – neither of these moments are as crucial to the story as Scarlets experience in Omadd’s device). This roots Scarlet in the world, it allows players to learn about her from her masters (it also means her masters recognise that she existed early on and creates a familiarity within Tyria about her story by retracing her journey as Ceara – while in the area players can look at the hylek tribe and interact with the environment Scarlet came from – an advantage of an MMO that is wasted by having this story on the website) and it gets more of the players on the same page when it comes to Scarlet’s history and understanding .

I like the short stories, but I like the stories to make it into the game. Taimi doesn’t have a short story, yet we’ve already learned so much about her from the game. That’s the right way to do it imo.

A pretty major problem with your idea, at least 2 of the mentors are dead so… There goes that whole “meeting the mentors” thing.

there was no reason for Asagai to be dead, so that rules out half your point. The only gap that would leave is Omadd, which is the part they wanted to keep mysterious. There’s no reason they couldn’t have done it that way, and it seems like they’re trying to change it now- Beigarth and Councilor Yahk both have dialogue pertaining to Scarlet’s apprentice stage theseadays.

How does it make no sense? She’s an old charr whose warband is dead and the last apprentice she had bailed on her before she even finished teaching her what she knew…. As Rox said, she’d rather die in the field than die from age, and she sure as hell didn’t have much left going on.

I mean hell I called that she was dead a while ago, charr society and all…. And I’m pretty sure those NPCs had dialogue for scarlet for quite some time now, no one bothered to go out and talk to them though because they didn’t have a golden starburst screaming at them to do so.

Actually, quite a few people did try to talk to them about Scarlet. They didn’t have anything to say until November, three full months after that story went up.

I didn’t say “no sense”, I said no reason. Unlike Omadd, there was nothing stopping the devs from putting Asagai, complete with her story about Scarlet, into the game. Rox claiming that she’s dead in January had no bearing on ANet’s decision about how her story ought to be told in August.

There is reason for Asagai being dead.

During The Origins of Madness: A Moment’s Peace Rox states that Asagai went on her “final patrol” – an act that old charr do when they’re about to die, so they go out fighting. And she hasn’t been heard from since, and it’s said it was “some time” ago.

That’s plenty of reason. And something tells me ArenaNet wouldn’t havep ut that in unless they a) wanted to write Asagai out of the story, or b) wanted to make players think she’s dead, then bring her in. B makes little sense because of the Living Story’s format – players coming in after Feb 4th wouldn’t know it unless they go onto the wiki or are told about it.

Aaron’s whole point is that if they wanted to have a ‘meet the mentors’ part of the story, they could easily have decided to have Asagai present rather than killing her offscreen. Back in August, there was nothing from stopping them from having Asagai being alive and someone we could talk to.

Or, alternatively, somebody else who could tell us about what happened.

Wasn’t disagreeing on that part, just the “no reason for Asagai to be dead now” which Aaron said earlier.

I have a really hard time tying any of Scarlet’s actions to Dhuum. It sounds very far fetched to me.

The method of twisting Caera and orchestrating a major apocalypse has Abaddon written all over it, but we know he’s gone for good. So out of his two partners in crime, I would very much link all of this to Menzies rather than Dhuum. He’s called Menzies the Mad after all, Lord of Destruction. He’s also associated with darkness isn’t he?

So what did Scarlet say in her journal? Running in a sea of darkness, images of death, destruction, destiny and finally ending the madness.

Yes you have death in there too, but more emphasis on madness and darkness. Also, Menzies appearance is long overdue.

(As a bonus, conflict with Menzies could introduce the Eternal Forgemaster to Tyria in order to make legendary armor )

I’d love for Menzies or Dhuum to be involved in all this. But there’s a pretty blatant picture of a dragon with plant-like tendrils on the ceiling of her cave. It’s not exactly like they are being subtle about it. And while Konig is right that it makes sense for Dhuum to have broken free by now, nothing points to Dhuum, and nothing points to Menzies.

We all have our pet theories that we desperately want to be true, but you got to go where the evidence leads.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I’d love for Menzies or Dhuum to be involved in all this. But there’s a pretty blatant picture of a dragon with plant-like tendrils on the ceiling of her cave. It’s not exactly like they are being subtle about it. And while Konig is right that it makes sense for Dhuum to have broken free by now, nothing points to Dhuum, and nothing points to Menzies.

We all have our pet theories that we desperately want to be true, but you got to go where the evidence leads.

Keep in mind she is in a cave, we don’t even know if that dragon painting is hers…. I mean Christ for all we know some grawl put that there YEARS ago, or Jotun.

Also, Anet LOVES red herrings, what better way to surprise half the player base with the plot by putting a dragon painting somewhere but it’s just there for decoration? There really isn’t one…. And seeing as how an unpopular theory is the correct one according to Colin Brohanson I’m gonna throw dragons being a factor out of the window.

Durzlla.6295:

Keep in mind she is in a cave, we don’t even know if that dragon painting is hers…. I mean Christ for all we know some grawl put that there YEARS ago, or Jotun.

Except for the fact that she states in her diary how a voice is constantly haunting her, and how she has nightmares. Her lair is literally filled with drawings of her nightmares that SHE drew with black and red ink (including a tree wrapped in red thorns, which she describes in her dreams). Did the Grawl leave those drawings there conveniently too? It is quite clear that she drew that dragon, and it’s not something you can easily wave aside. It’s not a dragon we’ve seen yet clearly. It has to be there for a reason.

Kalavier.1097:

And seeing as how an unpopular theory is the correct one according to Colin Brohanson I’m gonna throw dragons being a factor out of the window.

I’ll believe it when I see it. It would not surprise me if 90% of the forum instantly guessed the correct force behind this threat, despite what Colin says.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I’d love for Menzies or Dhuum to be involved in all this. But there’s a pretty blatant picture of a dragon with plant-like tendrils on the ceiling of her cave. It’s not exactly like they are being subtle about it. And while Konig is right that it makes sense for Dhuum to have broken free by now, nothing points to Dhuum, and nothing points to Menzies.

To quote an advertisement, ‘Why not both?’

Uruz Six.6594:

To quote an advertisement, ‘Why not both?’

All I’m saying is, with all the clues in Scarlet’s Lair, I think you should at least base your hypothesis on something we’ve seen so far. I have not seen any hint towards Dhuum so far.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Durzlla.6295:

Keep in mind she is in a cave, we don’t even know if that dragon painting is hers…. I mean Christ for all we know some grawl put that there YEARS ago, or Jotun.

Except for the fact that she states in her diary how a voice is constantly haunting her, and how she has nightmares. Her lair is literally filled with drawings of her nightmares that SHE drew with black and red ink (including a tree wrapped in red thorns, which she describes in her dreams). Did the Grawl leave those drawings there conveniently too? It is quite clear that she drew that dragon, and it’s not something you can easily wave aside. It’s not a dragon we’ve seen yet clearly. It has to be there for a reason.

Kalavier.1097:

And seeing as how an unpopular theory is the correct one according to Colin Brohanson I’m gonna throw dragons being a factor out of the window.

I’ll believe it when I see it. It would not surprise me if 90% of the forum instantly guessed the correct force behind this threat, despite what Colin says.

Nightmare =/= dragon I hope you realize this…

Just because she has mad drawings on paper doesn’t necessarily mean she drew on the actual walls of the cave,

Durzlla.6295:

Nightmare =/= dragon I hope you realize this…

Just because she has mad drawings on paper doesn’t necessarily mean she drew on the actual walls of the cave,

But it’s in the same ink as her paper drawings, and she literally warned us about the danger of the dragons before. It’s quite clear that the dragons are at least on her mind, and that dragon is something she drew, or it would not be in a secret lair underneath the Priory.

You can’t just simply pretend that she didn’t paint the dragon, just because it’s inconvenient, when you do accept that everything else in her lair is hers.

maybe she wants to know how dragons consume the magic and trying to find a way to do it herself…

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/short-story-what-scarlet-saw/

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Durzlla.6295:

Nightmare =/= dragon I hope you realize this…

Just because she has mad drawings on paper doesn’t necessarily mean she drew on the actual walls of the cave,

But it’s in the same ink as her paper drawings, and she literally warned us about the danger of the dragons before. It’s quite clear that the dragons are at least on her mind, and that dragon is something she drew, or it would not be in a secret lair underneath the Priory.

You can’t just simply pretend that she didn’t paint the dragon, just because it’s inconvenient, when you do accept that everything else in her lair is hers.

I don’t believe the nightmare is from a dragon. I believe it exists as part of the dream and serves the same purpose. Of course, I could be wrong and the nightmare could be the result of corruption of the dream.

On an unrelated note, isn’t the purpose of the invasions simply to test our responses?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Durzlla.6295:

Nightmare =/= dragon I hope you realize this…

Just because she has mad drawings on paper doesn’t necessarily mean she drew on the actual walls of the cave,

But it’s in the same ink as her paper drawings, and she literally warned us about the danger of the dragons before. It’s quite clear that the dragons are at least on her mind, and that dragon is something she drew, or it would not be in a secret lair underneath the Priory.

You can’t just simply pretend that she didn’t paint the dragon, just because it’s inconvenient, when you do accept that everything else in her lair is hers.

I’m not saying it’s inconvenient, or just flat out pretending it’s not hers, i’m just saying it’s possible it isn’t. And just because you couldn’t reach the cave earlier doesn’t mean it was never there, rockslides happen, Tyria has changed, god knows what else is hidden underground…

And when did she warn us of the Dragons? I don’t remember a single instance when she did, could you please point out what she did exactly to do this?

Durzlla.6295:

And when did she warn us of the Dragons? I don’t remember a single instance when she did, could you please point out what she did exactly to do this?

I wish I could remember, but I distinctly remember a quote where she warns the players of the threat of the dragons. I wish I could remember where though. Konig would probably know.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Durzlla.6295:

And when did she warn us of the Dragons? I don’t remember a single instance when she did, could you please point out what she did exactly to do this?

I wish I could remember, but I distinctly remember a quote where she warns the players of the threat of the dragons. I wish I could remember where though. Konig would probably know.

Konig we need your endless knowledge of GW!! I know I don’t recall her warning us about the dragons… But if she did then there’s no way that dragon painting ISNT from her.

It was a sound file that was found and posted on a soundcloud, but it was never in the game.

Durzlla.6295:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Durzlla.6295:

And when did she warn us of the Dragons? I don’t remember a single instance when she did, could you please point out what she did exactly to do this?

I wish I could remember, but I distinctly remember a quote where she warns the players of the threat of the dragons. I wish I could remember where though. Konig would probably know.

Konig we need your endless knowledge of GW!! I know I don’t recall her warning us about the dragons… But if she did then there’s no way that dragon painting ISNT from her.

It was a quote that has yet to be used in anything, it’s on soundcloud – she says to “be afraid of dragons”

Indeed, never used, thus shouldn’t be considered canon.

Here’s some new speculation.

The Grove sits above Mordremoth, similar to how the Central Transfer Chamber was near Primordius. The dream comes from Mordremoth. When Scarlet cuts off the magic from the ley line beneath Lions Arch, it will interrupt the dream and waken Mordremorth.

If the target is Mordremoth, then obviously she wasn’t being controlled by Mordremoth. What is the Scarlet entity? What is using Caera to attack the Dragon? Could it be the Pale Tree, bluffing Caera with the threat, but really be the mastermind the entire time?

That would be an interesting twist – the Pale Tree maliciously using Scarlet’s knowledge through tricking her into thinking she was fighting against the Pale Tree, when in reality, Scarlet is the Tree’s puppet to tackle Mordremoth at any cost.

Gnat.9405:

If the target is Mordremoth, then obviously she wasn’t being controlled by Mordremoth. What is the Scarlet entity? What is using Caera to attack the Dragon? Could it be the Pale Tree, bluffing Caera with the threat, but really be the mastermind the entire time?

That would be an interesting twist – the Pale Tree maliciously using Scarlet’s knowledge through tricking her into thinking she was fighting against the Pale Tree, when in reality, Scarlet is the Tree’s puppet to tackle Mordremoth at any cost.

There may be duality issues going on here. Tere may be an internal struggle in Scarlet. One ide may want to kill the dragon, and the other side may wish to waken it. Either way, the Mordy could be the final destination.

That’s what doesn’t make sense to me. If her objective never was to kill him (which is supported if she was being controlled by him), what use could Mordremoth have for her? Surely the dragons don’t need help in being awoken, right? And I don’t think Mordremoth would have diabolical plans for the Queen’s Jubilee. Unless I’m missing something big, the only reason Mordremoth would have for controlling Scarlet is if something was suppressing him.

Maybe that something is the dream? What if he’s using Scarlet to eliminate the dream so he can wake up, and the Sylvari are a kind of byproduct of suppressing the dragon?

Gnat.9405:

That’s what doesn’t make sense to me. If her objective never was to kill him (which is supported if she was being controlled by him), what use could Mordremoth have for her? Surely the dragons don’t need help in being awoken, right? And I don’t think Mordremoth would have diabolical plans for the Queen’s Jubilee. Unless I’m missing something big, the only reason Mordremoth would have for controlling Scarlet is if something was suppressing him.

Maybe that something is the dream? What if he’s using Scarlet to eliminate the dream so he can wake up, and the Sylvari are a kind of byproduct of suppressing the dragon?

The short story leaves me with the impression that Scarlet is an individualist and doesn’t like being told what to do. I think part of her believes that her actions will result in freeing her and the other sylvari from their “oppression”.

I see. I guess the question to ask (and hopefully it has been answered) is, at what point (which action/LS event) did Scarlet stop doing the mysterious entity’s bidding and begin acting on her own?

That question is also assuming she made any action while under the influence of the entity. I think the journal’s timeline is very important in determining this.

Did she make any moves (did any LS events take place) while she was being controlled, or did she break free of this entity before she began assembling the alliances?

She acts like the things she did were also kind of the plans of the entity. But Scarlet says she didnt do this for the entity but for herself. This implies that they might have a mutual goal in some sort, which links to the Pale Tree. Also with the entity having a big plan of its own seems just not fitting with the dragons. I dont know but it the dragons just dont seem to have everything planned out for them.

Blurk.6231:

This implies that they might have a mutual goal in some sort, which links to the Pale Tree.

How does any of this link to the Pale Tree? Everything seems focused on Lion’s Arch so far.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Blurk.6231:

This implies that they might have a mutual goal in some sort, which links to the Pale Tree.

How does any of this link to the Pale Tree? Everything seems focused on Lion’s Arch so far.

Yeah but there’s an asura gate to The Grove /endsarcasam.

I don’t see this involving mordy, she’s not going around corrupting people, like dragon champions/minions do, she’s just going in and burning LA to the ground so she can get to whatever it is that probe found…

whatever it is that probe found…

Inb4 Scepter of Orr

Gnat.9405:

Surely the dragons don’t need help in being awoken, right? And I don’t think Mordremoth would have diabolical plans for the Queen’s Jubilee. Unless I’m missing something big, the only reason Mordremoth would have for controlling Scarlet is if something was suppressing him.

There is precedent for the success or otherwise of dragon champions influencing when the dragon wakes. Killing the Great Destroyer in EOTN, for instance, apparently set back Primordus’ awakening.

As for Scarlet’s manipulator having a grudge against the Queen’s Jubilee – we’ve been told a few times now that the attack on the Jubilee was not part of the original plan.

I think if we knew the intentions behind the tower of nightmares and the toxin/anti toxin we would be able to form a much deeper theory.

This is my own theories/beliefs I wrote this morning on the Living World forum concerning Scarlet and some of her motives/background. I wanted to share it with you guys to see what you think of it since I should have posted this here in the first place. I know some of you are going to litteraly destroy most of these ideas and I’m totally okai with it. Just do it respectfully please. Before you start reading this, let me say that this theory rely on a lot of assumptions and a lot of theories that were already developed by other people. I merely wanted to add my own ideas and beliefs regarding what’s going on with Scarlet’s story arc. You should also know that I’m French Canadian and that my English is not perfect. So there’s probably going to be a lot of writing errors, even in this little introduction. If you notice them, it’s normal. I did my best. I hope you appreciate reading my own theories. I’d also like to give credits to every fans of Guild Wars 2 who came up with their own theories, some of which greatly influenced my own beliefs.

[Part1] My own theory about what’s going to happen next:

Scarlet will attack Lion’s Arch. That much is certain and it was just confirmed as I wrote these lines. She’ll launch a massive attack on the city’s defenses while bringing down her massive drilling machine in the lake (where her probe can be found) in order to create a tunnel to reach the magical leyline beneath the city. I think it is clear now that her probes where actually researching the network of magical leylines scattered across the globe. Once she has access to this leyline, I believe she’ll use the powerful poison she created in the Tower of Nightmares and mix it inside the magical current. Of course, I don’t even know if it is possible to do such a thing, to use the magical leylines as conductors, but anything is possible in a magical fantasy world. Now, why would she do this? She wants to poison and cripple the Pale Tree. I strongly believe that this poison was created to weaken or even destroy the Pale Tree. This is not a coincidence if the Tower of Nightmare looked like a giant tree-like tower. I think that it was created from the same type of seeds from which the Pale Tree originated. That way Scarlet could concoct the right poison suiting the “biology” of her target. But how is it related to the leyline beneath Lion’s Arch?

As a powerful magic entity, I believe that the Pale Tree needs a tremendous amount of magic energy in order to maintain the Dream as a whole. We can only assume the insane level of magical resources it takes to breed new sylvaris, to nurture them in the dream and to continuously preserve their connection to it. So, where does the Pale Tree finds all the magic it needs in order to do all those things? We know that most beings, except maybe the gods, aren’t inherently magic in nature. They tap into the magic energies of the world through their environment (or so I believe). Even the Elder Dragons need to consume magic and, according to the lore, once they consume it all, they return into their dormant state until their next awakening. We can assume then that after the elder dragon’s appearances, magic completely disappears from the world, at least for a time. Magic is then a finite resource that recycles itself over the course of time. And I believe that, just as any other beings, the Pale Tree needs to tap into the world in order to acquire its magical energies and that it uses one of those leylines as an infinite source of magic in order to maintain the dream. The Pale Tree’s roots might be directly connected to it and, just as dragons consume magic, the Pale Tree feeds off of this constant flow of natural energy, using it for its purpose. And that leyline is the one Scarlet was searching for all along. She’s going to pour her poison directly inside the magical vein that flows through the Pale Tree in order to weaken it considerably. In this weakened state, she could then destroy it by using the powerful Aethercannon she was testing during the Giant Twisted Marionette meta-event. At first, I thought the marionette’s purpose was to distract us while Scarlet collected the energy needed to complete her drilling machine (because the gigantic platform from which the marionette hanged was identical to the upper parts of the drill depicted in Scarlet’s lair). While I do believe the drill will eventually be attached to this giant platform, I think the drill itself is already finished and ready. The only thing Scarlet lacked to complete her master plan was a weapon powerful enough to destroy the Pale Tree in its weakened state, thus the Aethercannon.

[Part 2] Why would she do such a thing? Destroying the Pale Tree is the only thing from which Scarlet could truly benefit. Each time we learned a bit more about Scarlet, there was something about her persona that kept coming back: her insatiable desire for independence, to free herself and her people from their predestined paths. And I believe that is what makes Scarlet such a nice villain, because you can easily understand her obsession and her motives (although not all her actions). It is true that sylvaris are often born to fulfill defined roles in their society and that their desires to complete their Wild Hunts play a major part in the development of their identity. Just look at Trahearne. His “destiny” was to purge Orr from its corruption and even though he had no idea how to accomplish such a feat until the opportunity presented itself, every action he took in his life served towards the completion of this unique goal. It literally shaped him.

[Part 3]Now, if Scarlet is unknowingly Mordremoth’s minion (she hears his voice but reject the fact that he might be controlling her actions) as many players claimed, what does HE have to gain in the destruction of the Pale Tree? Well, if the sylvaris are indeed the Jungle Dragon’s minions and the Pale Tree was intended to be one of his original champions, he probably wants them back under his control. People assumed that he could not control them specifically because of the existence of the Pale Tree and the Dream of Dreams which would protect the sylvaris against his influence. It would explain why he might want the tree destroyed. That way he could get his “army” back. But since we know there are other existing trees like the Pale Tree that aren’t linked to the Dream and thus, doesn’t benefit from the “Dream’s protection”, why aren’t the sylvaris born from these trees corrupted by Mordremoth’s influence? Doesn’t he have other minions or armies? Why would he use Scarlet instead? Because he is not fully awakened yet and something is warding off his powers; he is a prisoner. Let me explain my theory. I think that Mordremoth’s conscience is awake (though not entirely) but his body is still in a dormant state. Remember, Primordus wasn’t fully awaken in Eye of the North but his destroyers were still running amok, which indicated a certain level of awareness on his part but he didn’t rise until many years later. Right now, all dragons are awakened, except for Mordremoth (and maybe Bubbles but from what the ocean races tell us, he has awakened as well). With everything that has happened in Tyria over the last years, why haven’t we heard or seen anything related to Mordremoth? He should be awakened by now. Why would he be hiding? My assumption is that he is sleeping beneath the Pale Tree and that the Pale Tree is actually keeping him in its dormant state to prevent his actual rise. How?

According to what we know, dragons usually emerge when there is too much magic in the world. They consume all of it and return into slumber while magic slowly leaks from their body back into the world until the time of their return comes and the cycle begins anew. Having lost all the magical energy they had consumed during their previous rise, it’s their insatiable hunger for magic that eventually wakes them up. It is safe to assume that when they return they are weaker then they originally were which would explain why there is a delay between their «first awakening» and their actual emergence. The way I see it, Primordus didn’t rise immediately at the end of EotN because he needed to strengthen his powers first by consuming magic. In Mordremoth’s case, the Pale Tree is preventing him from gaining back his strength and fully awakening his body. I can easily picture the Jungle Dragon in its dormant state, deep beneath the earth under the Pale Tree, entangled in the tree’s giant roots which prevent him from devouring the flow of magical energy coming from the leyline. I think the Pale Tree’s purpose was actually to prevent Mordremoth’s rise. Maybe the gods or the druids, knowing more information about this powerful and dangerous foe, directed Ronan and Ventari’s actions. The Dream of Dreams might even be the spiritual representation of Mordremoth’s prison/dormant state and the Nightmare would be a direct consequence of his dark influence over this realm. And through the Dream, the dragon managed to pierce the veil of his prison to create a connection to a singular sylvari which obsessions could easily serve his needs. Now, we could ask ourselves why the Pale Tree doesn’t reveal that fact and doesn’t try to actually kill the dragon while it is still in a weakened state. A quick hypothesis can easily explain why. There’s a probability that by killing the dragon, the Pale Tree and all sylvaris would die. The only problem to this hypothesis is that Zhaitan’s minions are still running amok, even after his demise. But remember that each dragon is different and that their corruption/minions might work differently. Plus, Zhaitan may still be alive (but this is wishful thinking after a disappointing final fight).