Guild Wars 2

You wouldn’t be the first to come up with the idea that Juton and norn could be related.

Thruln the losts stories hint at a connection (Though Thruln and his stories have been argued to death already, so thread contributes should refrain from arguing about it)

Personally I doubt this, mainly because it’s suggested heavily that the Norn are evolved (or devolved depending how you see it) Koda. The Koda themselves believe this. Also if I do re call the Giganticus Lupicus went extinct around the same time as the original rise of the Dragons, when the Jotun were already present and in their highly intelligent state.

I would like to point out the gaping hole in your theory.
If their appearance had anything to do with humans then humanity would have record of Jotun and Norn from a LOT earlier.

As it stands the first time humans encountered both races was during the events of the GW1 campaign Eye of The North, which is only 250 years ago.

I never played Eye of the North but mabey some human explorers came across the Norns much earlier.

And whos to say they dont have a record?It might not just be mentioned in game.

@Venzetti It doesnt matter if Jotun and Giganticus Lupicus were around at the same time.The Jotun could still be descended from them. That would be like saying kitten Sapiens and kitten Erectus arnt related simply because they were around during the same time.Even though Modern humans did evolve from Erectus.

Also why is HSapien and HErectuscensored?lol

One other possibility is that the human gods created most of the races of Tyria except as we all know the humans themselves.Which would be ironic.The Norn could be the result of some experiment that the gods did by mixing humans and jotun.

I want to here someone come up with better theroy as to why they look so freaking human.It makes no sense lore wise if humans are aliens to Tyria and Norn look identical to humans but taller.They should look completely different.

I wasn’t really clear enough with my logic, apologies :P

I mean more that Jotun were already at a very high point of their culture when the dragons came, they knew magic, were already very skilled astronomers and had a nice chunky civilisation going. This would take a very long time to happen, so in my personal opinion it’s highly unlikely that Jotun came from the GL… especially since the GL had no culture or organisation that we know of and the Jotun are known as having a very advanced deep culture before their fall from grace. Evolution would usually show the GL would have some sort of culture to have them become a race that has so much culture such as the Jotun.

Also in response to your edit, it’s already set in the lore that the six gods didn’t create any of the races (apart from humans which is hazy) and that the Charr, Forgotten, Seers, Mursaat, Elder Dragons and Jotun were in Tyria before the gods arrived.

Actually the Forgotten were brought to Tyria first by the gods.Then the humans came after.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Forgotten

There is one thing that could support Norn as being human/Jotun Hybrids

In Thruln the Losts story he says the following.

“In the beginning, humans lived like grawl. The gods had not yet noticed them. Their magic was primitive: fire, earth, air and water. My jotun ancestors helped them survive.”

Then Later.

“Humans collected on the high plains. Tribes became settlements. Settlements became a kingdom. And that was when the gods noticed them and betrayed the jotun”

“The other races looked up to the norn and the jotun. We were superior to all other races, and we were gaining on the gods.”

“The gods became unhappy with us. They took magic away from us and handed it in measured bites to their favorite races. My people have been sliding deeper and deeper into darkness ever since.”

He never says the Norn were there before the Humans only that other races looked up to Both norn and Jotun. And the gods he seems to speaking of are the human gods yet he acts as if they are Jotun gods.But the Jotun are supposedly native to Tyria so why would he view the human gods as gods?Unless the human gods really did create the other races and visited Tyria long before they brought the humans and much much earlier then anyone realizes.Perhaps they even created them to help fight the Elder Dragons.

Other wise it must be some freak act of nature to have it where dozens of unrelated sentient species evolved on the same planet.With 2 that even look human.(Dwarves and Norn)

You’re running off GW1 lore, not GW2, a quote taken from http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Lore

“The oldest records on Tyria dates back to approximately 10,000 BE, the estimated date for the Giganticus Lupicus’ extinction at the claws of the Elder Dragons during their last known time of awakening. The only known surviving sentient races of this time are the dwarves, forgotten, jotun, mursaat, and seers. "

“At some point prior to 786 BE the Six Gods arrived on Tyria at the Artesian Waters in Orr from the Mists and later brought humanity to the world. It is said that the Six Gods brought the forgotten to the world as well; however this is now questionable given their dealings with the Elder Dragons.”

Guild Warrior.9540:

Actually the Forgotten were brought to Tyria first by the gods.Then the humans came after.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Forgotten

That info has been proven wrong by Arah explorable,as the Forgotten freed Glint in Arah way before the gods arrived

Though it is stated the Kodan believe the norn are their offshoots, this is literally mentioned no where else but in the Kodan’s racial description, making it somewhat questionable.

Now, there is a sort of thing I like to call The Mystery Diversion rule that exists in game franchises.

This rule basically is formed out of a franchises inability to weave a number of reasonable ingame theories or explanations that bewilder the player into not having the ability to decipher a “more likely orgin”. This is a kind of fluff that is used to mystify an entity by adding clues to indicate several likely origins. An example of this used effectively can be found in TES:Skyrim regarding Wispmothers. They give 2 perfectly reasonable theories that leave the player wondering exactly what the Wispmothers are.

However, sometime when a franchise is unsure, they give off one possible explination and drawn it as a mystery until eventually proving it’s correction due to their lack of imagination and what not.

In Warcraft this rule occurs with Night elves, who although were given a divine background, have always had a “mystery ancestor” race that was said to be Trolls by Trolls only to be denied and refuted by elves. They kept this theory around for years until finally stating it was officially true (Causing elf fans to rage). This has happened in other games, where an mystery origin is reveled and left long enough to just become official.

So the Kodan theory likely already has grounds given the length of the norn origin mystery.

Despite this, I still feel that there is some truth to Thrulns legends and that at some point Norn and Juton co-existed, possibly as one people.

The Norn from Koda makes more sense to me, especially when you put their cultures side by side. As well as the story of The Claw without The Voice going out to hunt, and hunting being a huge part of what Norn culture is now.

Guild Warrior.9540:

In Thruln the Losts story he says the following.

“In the beginning, humans lived like grawl. The gods had not yet noticed them. Their magic was primitive: fire, earth, air and water. My jotun ancestors helped them survive.”

Then Later.

“Humans collected on the high plains. Tribes became settlements. Settlements became a kingdom. And that was when the gods noticed them and betrayed the jotun”

“The other races looked up to the norn and the jotun. We were superior to all other races, and we were gaining on the gods.”

He never says the Norn were there before the Humans only that other races looked up to Both norn and Jotun. And the gods he seems to speaking of are the human gods yet he acts as if they are Jotun gods.But the Jotun are supposedly native to Tyria so why would he view the human gods as gods?

Believe it or not, I know it sounds like bullkitten, but it is suggested in the lore that this is actually a lie told by the Jotun to make their culture seem more significant… notice how I said suggested, i’m not say it is a lie, but it’s suggested.

Venzetti.3901:

The Norn from Koda makes more sense to me, especially when you put their cultures side by side. As well as the story of The Claw without The Voice going out to hunt, and hunting being a huge part of what Norn culture is now.

The connection is only really seen with the fact that Norn can transform.

However Kodan have not shown the ability to shapeshift and the idea of the spirits turning bears into human like beings just seems odd.

The Juton body shape is closer to the norn than that of their supposed Ogre cousins.

Bard.7215:

Venzetti.3901:

The Norn from Koda makes more sense to me, especially when you put their cultures side by side. As well as the story of The Claw without The Voice going out to hunt, and hunting being a huge part of what Norn culture is now.

The connection is only really seen with the fact that Norn can transform.

However Kodan have not shown the ability to shapeshift and the idea of the spirits turning bears into human like beings just seems odd.

The Juton body shape is closer to the norn than that of their supposed Ogre cousins.

What about their deep reliance on honor and integrity, while the Jotun will famously back stab and destroy each other as shown by the downfall of their civilisation?

Or them both believing deeply in a chosen faith, the Koda having their god, and the Norns having the spirits while the Jotun have no religion or faith at all?

Hell if you want to go really simple similarities (granted they share this with the Jotun as well) their inhabitants of cold places!

The Jotun and Norns are just too different to be anything more than rivals in my opinion.

Venzetti.3901:

Guild Warrior.9540:

In Thruln the Losts story he says the following.

“In the beginning, humans lived like grawl. The gods had not yet noticed them. Their magic was primitive: fire, earth, air and water. My jotun ancestors helped them survive.”

Then Later.

“Humans collected on the high plains. Tribes became settlements. Settlements became a kingdom. And that was when the gods noticed them and betrayed the jotun”

“The other races looked up to the norn and the jotun. We were superior to all other races, and we were gaining on the gods.”

He never says the Norn were there before the Humans only that other races looked up to Both norn and Jotun. And the gods he seems to speaking of are the human gods yet he acts as if they are Jotun gods.But the Jotun are supposedly native to Tyria so why would he view the human gods as gods?

Believe it or not, I know it sounds like bullkitten, but it is suggested in the lore that this is actually a lie told by the Jotun to make their culture seem more significant… notice how I said suggested, I’m not say it is a lie, but it’s suggested.

In an earlier thread there was a huge argument surrounding thrulns stories, most of it on the basis of lore that the stories contradict being more valid due to their stronger presence in official lore. As well as if things should be taken literally or figuratively (Such as thruln saying humans lived like grawl, which could have been a comparison to say that early human society was Grawlike compared to the advanced society of the Juton rather than the Juton claiming humans were literally as primitive as grawl.)

Given that the human gods have families and predecessors, I don’t take the idea that the Juton once had Gods similar to the human gods as being impossible. I dabble in the idea that an older pantheon once championed the Juton/Norn but their successors turned to humanity through Dwayna, as the earlier members wouldn’t necessarily be considered human gods.

“However Kodan have not shown the ability to shapeshift and the idea of the spirits turning bears into human like beings just seems odd.”

Exactly.The Kodan seem to be just like anthro bear furries to me and it should be impossible for something human looking like the norn to come from them without some sort of divine/magical genetic engineering assistance.And a knowledge as to what humans are and look like.

Guild Warrior.9540:

“However Kodan have not shown the ability to shapeshift and the idea of the spirits turning bears into human like beings just seems odd.”

Exactly.The Kodan seem to be just like anthro furries to me and it should be impossible for something human looking like the norn to come from them without some sort of divine/magical genetic engineering assistance.And a knowledge as to what humans are and look like.

Neither have the Jotun.

Venzetti.3901:

Bard.7215:

Venzetti.3901:

The Norn from Koda makes more sense to me, especially when you put their cultures side by side. As well as the story of The Claw without The Voice going out to hunt, and hunting being a huge part of what Norn culture is now.

The connection is only really seen with the fact that Norn can transform.

However Kodan have not shown the ability to shapeshift and the idea of the spirits turning bears into human like beings just seems odd.

The Juton body shape is closer to the norn than that of their supposed Ogre cousins.

What about their deep reliance on honor and integrity, while the Jotun will famously back stab and destroy each other as shown by the downfall of their civilisation?

Or them both believing deeply in a chosen faith, the Koda having their god, and the Norns having the spirits while the Jotun have no religion or faith at all?

Hell if you want to go really simple similarities (granted they share this with the Jotun as well) their inhabitants of cold places!

The Jotun and Norns are just too different to be anything more than rivals in my opinion.

The Divergence in culture is clearly indicated by the Norns discovery of the spirits of the Wild. When the Juton fell down, they fell down hard. One side out of desperation might have found the spirits while the other delved down into primitiveness.

The Existence of Koda is debatable, an issue with fantasy games is that unless a universal Pantheon is established, then Cultural gods are left in the mystery, as saying “Well this culture is wrong and their gods don’t exist” ruins the allure of a race (Specifically if it’s playabe, Hence why in WoW Night Elf Fans Cringe at the idea of their god being a wind chime). While the faith of the Kodan has a powerful and inspirational message, I do not feel there is enough evidence to suggest Koda actually exists and therefore Koda turning Kodan into a Human form for being imbalanced seems rather silly.

I also don’t see cultural similarities as being an indicator of heredity.

“Neither have the Jotun.”

Like I said before the Norn were probably either given their shapeshifting powers or just learned them.

More significantly, when it comes to Thruln the Lost, the claim that humans were ever on Tyria without the favour of the gods conflicts with information in Orr, which states that humans were brought by the gods (and implies it was to escape some calamity elsewhere). Thruln the Lost’s testimony also conflicts with the Elder Thruln’s ghost that can be met in the norn “Defeat our ancient foes” story – who matter-of-fact lays the blame squarely on the giant-kings without mentioning the gods at all. Frankly, my suspicion is that over the centuries, it’s become… unhealthy… for a Thruln to lay the blame for the jotun fall on the jotun, so humans and their gods came to be used as scapegoats.

The koda story is also suspect, since it’s basically an Aesop about what happens when you abandon the kodan status quo and the story originated from members of the kodan caste with the most to gain from maintaining the status quo. It’s also not universally believed by the kodan.

Venzetti.3901:

Guild Warrior.9540:

“However Kodan have not shown the ability to shapeshift and the idea of the spirits turning bears into human like beings just seems odd.”

Exactly.The Kodan seem to be just like anthro furries to me and it should be impossible for something human looking like the norn to come from them without some sort of divine/magical genetic engineering assistance.And a knowledge as to what humans are and look like.

Neither have the Jotun.

Both Kodan and Juton have no connection or reverence to the Spirits of the Wild, which granted the power to the Norn.

The idea is that the shapeshifting isn’t truly a part of the norn race but a side effect of their worship. This means that their base form is their natural form.

Norn look like huge humans with a naturally superior muscle build, Juton look like Neanderthals with a skin condition and a beer gut. There really isn’t that much of a physical difference between Norn and Juton outside of size.

Well I don’t think you can debate “The Koda”‘s existance due to it residing in The Mists which can literally have anything and everything inside it, I always saw the GW2 religious system liberating as due to The Mists all religions barring The Eternal Alchemy which has no physical manifestation can be real. The Voice does communicate with something in The Mists and the race of Koda name it “The Koda” which make that deity a reality whether it makes it a god is another thing. The Koda’s religious beginnings mentions spirits, even going so far as to say that their deity IS a spirit of the wild. Why could the Koda that left to hunt not have called out to the other spirits for guidance? Their fore starting their current religion?

In regards to the Jotun splitting and one half finding the spirits and saving themselves from this fall from grace I just don’t buy it, the Jotun were very big headed with a holyer than thou attitude, for them to suddenly change makes no sense to me.

Venzetti.3901:

Well I don’t think you can debate “The Koda”‘s existance due to it residing in The Mists which can literally have anything and everything inside it, I always saw the GW2 religious system liberating as due to The Mists all religions barring The Eternal Alchemy which has no physical manifestation can be real. The Voice does communicate with something in The Mists and the race of Koda name it “The Koda” which make that deity a reality whether it makes it a god is another thing. The Koda’s religious beginnings mentions spirits, even going so far as to say that their deity IS a spirit of the wild. Why could the Koda that left to hunt not have called out to the other spirits for guidance? Their fore starting their current religion?

In regards to the Jotun splitting and one half finding the spirits and saving themselves from this fall from grace I just don’t buy it, the Jotun were very big headed with a holyer than thou attitude, for them to suddenly change makes no sense to me.

Because Finding a god generally has a huge impact on people. I’ve seen more arrogant beings in fantasy become humbled and enlightened before supernatural beings offering salvation from suffering.

The Kodan acknowledge the spirits as do many races who have clearly seen their power, however Norn spirit worship and the views on spirits by the Kodan far too greatly to make sense of the"lost hunter" story.

Koda might exist but not as the Kodan beleive he does. through acquired knowledge and human humility we have come to know the six human gods as powerful Alien entities seeking refuge from whatever they attempted to escape from through the Mists. the claims of Koda are beyond that, pertaining too an absolute creator/personification of nature. His role as stated is far too great, specifically for a secondary race to play the game of favorites(Kodan the Jury, Koda the Judge). Whatever they are talking too, it definitely isn’t something that groundbreakingly important.

Guild Warrior.9540:

So ive been wondering why the hell the Norn look exactly like humans when the other races dont(except dwarves but their another matter entirely).My theory is that they are either descended or were created by the Jotun to be slaves back when they had technology probably on pare with Asura if not even more advanced.Either the Jotun gave them their shape shifting powers or they learned it by themselves.

Either way they probably looked more like the blue giant jotun in their first forms rather then humans but when the humans came into Tyria they changed their forms to look human so that the humans would accept them more and not freak out at the site of giant ugly blue humanoids.

Also the Jotun in turn could be descended from Giganticus lupus assuming evolution on Tyria works the same way it does on our planet.

What do you think?

Edge of Destiny refers to their “normal” form as “human form” – though this may be for sake of descriptive narrative than what it’s actually referred to by norn.

While the norn and jotun may have a shared history, I do not – nor can see such – that the norn were made by the jotun. I find the kodan theory more plausible. Furthermore, they looked like large humans when they first came in contact with humans, so I cannot see that being the case.

Also, no, if evolution works the same as in reality, the jotun cannot be descended from the Giganticus Lupicus. The G-Lupe are giant DOGS – as their name implies for those who know butchered latin (Lupicus coming from the latin word for wolf, iirc – though I cannot recall the latin word itself atm). We see a Giganticus Lupicus in Arah explorable, and it’s basically a 35 foot bipedal cyborg weredog.

Venzetti.3901:

Personally I doubt this, mainly because it’s suggested heavily that the Norn are evolved (or devolved depending how you see it) Koda. The Koda themselves believe this. Also if I do re call the Giganticus Lupicus went extinct around the same time as the original rise of the Dragons, when the Jotun were already present and in their highly intelligent state.

Kodan* Koda is their god.

But their theory is still rather unlikely, truth be told, given how it’s only certain Voices who believe such and they are rather stuck up.

And it’s previous rise. The G-Lupe went extinct during the last rise of the Elder Dragons – the same cycle that the jotun, seer, mursaat, dwarves, and forgotten survived.

FlamingFoxx.1305:

I would like to point out the gaping hole in your theory.
If their appearance had anything to do with humans then humanity would have record of Jotun and Norn from a LOT earlier.

As it stands the first time humans encountered both races was during the events of the GW1 campaign Eye of The North, which is only 250 years ago.

Actually, jotun might have been met sooner. Norn, however, weren’t known about in wide-spread prior to 1078 AE.

Guild Warrior.9540:

And whos to say they dont have a record?It might not just be mentioned in game.

The background of the norn is that humanity only first encountered them during GW1’s timeframe. At least in large enough scale for documentation. There might have been your random wanderer like Kahmu who met them prior, but no records were made. According to what I recall about interviews with the devs.

Guild Warrior.9540:

One other possibility is that the human gods created most of the races of Tyria except as we all know the humans themselves.Which would be ironic.The Norn could be the result of some experiment that the gods did by mixing humans and jotun.

This is actually proving to be more and more unlikely. While old-style humans still believe most races were made by the Six Gods, given how much B.S. these old myths and legends hold, it’s increasingly unlikely. I mean, all indications currently place the forgotten as not being brought to Tyria by the Six Gods (though if they did, that means at least one god was around during the previous ED rise).

Guild Warrior.9540:

I want to here someone come up with better theroy as to why they look so freaking human. It makes no sense lore wise if humans are aliens to Tyria and Norn look identical to humans but taller. They should look completely different.

You are assuming, I believe, that norn are older than humanity. Could it not easily be that norn are descended from a tribe of humans? Their culture is very akin to Luxon culture, if you ask me, from revering tales of battle prowess, to being nomads, to revering wilderness spirits (Zhu Hanuku – formerly), and so on and so forth.

That’s my personal theory.

If that’s not the case, then I’d just say it’s because humans thought them up and in lore it’s just pure bloody coincidence. I mean, go play Darksiders – EVERY race but three (Demons, Charred Council, and Sprites) are mostly humanoid.

(more in following post)

Venzetti.3901:

especially since the GL had no culture or organisation that we know of

The G-Lupe we see in Arah is cyborized. There’s a Durmand Priory scholar researching the G-Lupe’s culture in relation to the Crystal Desert cultures.

While we don’t know anything about it, I think it’s safe to say that they had culture of some degree.

Venzetti.3901:

Also in response to your edit, it’s already set in the lore that the six gods didn’t create any of the races (apart from humans which is hazy) and that the Charr, Forgotten, Seers, Mursaat, Elder Dragons and Jotun were in Tyria before the gods arrived.

Actually, it’s fuzzy on whether or not the Six Gods created any races. As well as the age of the charr (we only know they warred with the forgotten at some point before humanity arrived in Ascalon).

Guild Warrior.9540:

Actually the Forgotten were brought to Tyria first by the gods.Then the humans came after.

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Forgotten

Read GW2W’s article, it’s more up to date given how GWW wants minimal GW2 lore on it. But to summarize: The Six Gods are known to have arrived on the world sometime after the writing of the Tome of Rubicon and the mursaat/seer war. The mursaat/seer war occurred, to the best of our knowledge, during the previous Elder Dragon rise. The forgotten were around during the last Elder Dragon rise.

While it’s possible that the order of events was “mursaat/seer war->Dwayna arrives on Tyria, brings the forgotten->Forgotten free Glint, who then hides the races and wait out the ED’s ravaging” it’s more likely to be “mursaat/seer war->Forgotten free Glint and the waiting out occurs->Six Gods arrive while ED are dormant”

All indications we have show that the Six Gods did not know of the Elder Dragons – though we only know for certainty they didn’t know of Zhaitan’s presence under Orr.

Guild Warrior.9540:

There is one thing that could support Norn as being human/Jotun Hybrids

In Thruln the Losts story he says the following.

Read the second post of this thread. Thruln the Lost holds so many inconsistencies (like the very first quote you brought up, which is so direly wrong – the humans were certainly more than grawl and the Six Gods always noticed them) that everything that isn’t proven wrong is dubious at best.

And no, nothing he says implies that norn are descended from jotun. Let alone human/jotun hybrids. He only says the norn and jotun both once ruled the world during the Age of Giants. But again, he’s far from credible as a source.

Guild Warrior.9540:

He never says the Norn were there before the Humans only that other races looked up to Both norn and Jotun.

Because that’s not part of the topic. He’s talking about the Six Gods, not the norn.

Guild Warrior.9540:

Unless the human gods really did create the other races and visited Tyria long before they brought the humans and much much earlier then anyone realizes.

Nope. The Six Gods first arrived on Tyria after the mursaat/seer war. This is explicitly stated by Ree Soesbee in an interview. And as I said, said mursaat/seer war which decimated the seer race is most likely to have occured during the last ED rise – if not then, then after.

(more in following post)

Venzetti.3901:

Believe it or not, I know it sounds like bullkitten, but it is suggested in the lore that this is actually a lie told by the Jotun to make their culture seem more significant… notice how I said suggested, i’m not say it is a lie, but it’s suggested.

Not to my knowledge – me and drax have suggested such, that Thurln is either wrong due to his knowledge being from oral tradition (which is very easily twisted – ever played the telephone game?) or that he himself twisted it to suit his audience but I don’t recall seeing it in-game anywhere.

Venzetti.3901:

What about their deep reliance on honor and integrity, while the Jotun will famously back stab and destroy each other as shown by the downfall of their civilisation?

Or them both believing deeply in a chosen faith, the Koda having their god, and the Norns having the spirits while the Jotun have no religion or faith at all?

Hell if you want to go really simple similarities (granted they share this with the Jotun as well) their inhabitants of cold places!

If you want to go off of similarity of cultures, the Luxon are where you want to point a finger at.

And note that Luxons hold legends of an ancient lost homeland across a great sea. It’s not unlikely that the Luxons’ homeland had other groups of humans heading out. And evolution would cause norn to grow in size to suit the colder climates, and there are statues of some of the Six seen in the Far Shiverpeaks in GW1, some of Grenth’s right near a shrine to Raven (the two’s domains are very close). I would not be surprised if the norn are descended from humanity, evolved due to the Far Shiverpeaks’ climate, and changed faiths when the Six Gods left the world (and thus became less heard) or due to the Spirits of the Wild being more helpful.

The concept of Jotun violating Human female captives to “make” the Norn makes my skin crawl…

I still get how people think the Juton are that far off in appearance from Norn, let alone humans.

From my perspective they look like a Neanderthal compared to a cro-magnon. The difference are not to extreme in body shape and structure, albeit some concept art depicts them with fiercer looking canine teeth than seen ingame. The Ogres which they supposedly relate too are way more off, having horns, sharp teeth and spinal spikes, as well as Un-proportional limb length(short leg, long arms). The notion that the Norn came from Kodan being transformed by Koda or the spirits just seems off.

However, the idea that Norn are an off-shot of humans hadn’t crossed my mind and I feel it also has a greater probably than that of the Kodan theory. However I’m not ready to denounce a Jotun involvement, as they’ve been competing with the Norn for quite awhile, not to mention there is an obvious “Giant” theme amongst the Juton and Norn.

Like Oglaf said, maybe they’re half Juton?

I think it’s easier that a colder clima makes people shorter to consverve the heat, not taller. There are exceptions though.

Anyway IMO norn coming from humans it’s unlikely.
Humans come from another dimension, they are not from this world.
Two similar races in two different dimensions (we can guess the other dimension it’s actually similar to ours if humans have this shape) it’s not something that strange.

In my mind Kodan being norns always shapeshifted in the “Spirit of the Wild” Koda form (then a group of them disagree/lose the Koda blessing and go back to their norn form) have more chances that norn coming from humans.

Just my opinion, obviously.

Common Norn belief holds that Kodan are Norn who have become “stuck” in Bear Form. The Kodan themselves neither deny nor confirm this. Personally I think the Kodan are just being courteous towards the Norn belief in not denying it. Makes sense when you consider that the Kodan are trying to take the Norn under their wing and teach them about their beliefs about Balance.

I’m pretty much leaving this thread as it is as I’ve said all that I feel I can and everyone is making good points I still believe the Kodan theory personally but that’s jsut because to me it makes more sense, although the Luxon theory above is also very interesting.

Oglaf.1074:

Common Norn belief holds that Kodan are Norn who have become “stuck” in Bear Form. The Kodan themselves neither deny nor confirm this. Personally I think the Kodan are just being courteous towards the Norn belief in not denying it. Makes sense when you consider that the Kodan are trying to take the Norn under their wing and teach them about their beliefs about Balance.

I just would like to say in relation to this quote that in most cases the Kodan are generally considering the possibility that the species are linked. It isn’t mearly the Kodan being “courteous” as you can see if you listen to some Kodan actually discuss it out loud in Frostgourge.

Temihal.8651:

I think it’s easier that a colder clima makes people shorter to consverve the heat, not taller. There are exceptions though.

Polar bears are not only the largest bears on Earth but the largest land carnivores also. Siberian tigers are the largest living cats, ranking among the biggest felids to ever exist. And both species live in very cold climates.

You are mixing it with mammals living in hot climates. They are usually smaller than their brethren who live in cold areas. (Desert fox < Arctic fox; Bengali tiger < Siberian tiger). So it’s not at all impossible that norn might be an offshoot of humans who have evolved and became accustomed to cold.

Temihal.8651:

Anyway IMO norn coming from humans it’s unlikely.
Humans come from another dimension, they are not from this world.
Two similar races in two different dimensions (we can guess the other dimension it’s actually similar to ours if humans have this shape) it’s not something that strange.

Wrong. Humans have never come from “another dimension.” Both the norn and the humans live in the same dimension, however, humanity originates from a different planet.

Given the fact that the first known record of humanity on the world of Tyria is from 786 BE, it’s likely that their arrival on that southern continent happened even earlier, say, 1,000 BE, giving both parties circa 2,000 years to evolve into their current physiology. The average height of us real world humans increased a lot in the same time, and then there’s the Scandinavian people who tend to be also a lot taller. Add a little magic to improve and quicken acclimatization, and you get the norn.

I agree with Konig. I definitely see the possibility that norn were a tribe related to Luxons or proto-Luxons, but instead of going north the way humanity did (Cantha -> Elona -> Tyria), they went the other way on the globe, sailing through the arctic seas at the end of their journey and arriving in or near the Far Shiverpeaks.

Also, humanity might have been taller in average when they arrived on Tyria. And while the “southerners” who lived in moderate to hot climates became shorter, “northerners” who traveled and lived in cold climates grew even taller, explaining the slight difference in height between humans and norn.

Thalador.4218:

Polar bears are not only the largest bears on Earth but the largest land carnivores also. Siberian tigers are the largest living cats, ranking among the biggest felids to ever exist. And both species live in very cold climates.

You are mixing it with mammals living in hot climates. They are usually smaller than their brethren who live in cold areas. (Desert fox < Arctic fox; Bengali tiger < Siberian tiger). So it’s not at all impossible that norn might be an offshoot of humans who have evolved and became accustomed to cold.

I wasn’t thinking about furred animals, anyway I said something incorrect^^

Thalador.4218:

Wrong. Humans have never come from “another dimension.” Both the norn and the humans live in the same dimension, however, humanity originates from a different planet.

Here you are actually wrong.
The Six aren’t (for what we know) some kind of space-travelling aliens, they came from the Mist.
We can argue about what the Mist is, but surely isn’t the equivalent of our space.
If you don’t like the word “dimension” we can call it world, i don’t really care that much.

Thalador.4218:

Given the fact that the first known record of humanity on the world of Tyria is from 786 BE, it’s likely that their arrival on that southern continent happened even earlier, say, 1,000 BE, giving both parties circa 2,000 years to evolve into their current physiology. The average height of us real world humans increased a lot in the same time, and then there’s the Scandinavian people who tend to be also a lot taller. Add a little magic to improve and quicken acclimatization, and you get the norn.

I agree with Konig. I definitely see the possibility that norn were a tribe related to Luxons or proto-Luxons, but instead of going north the way humanity did (Cantha -> Elona -> Tyria), they went the other way on the globe, sailing through the arctic seas at the end of their journey and arriving in or near the Far Shiverpeaks.

Also, humanity might have been taller in average when they arrived on Tyria. And while the “southerners” who lived in moderate to hot climates became shorter, “northerners” who traveled and lived in cold climates grew even taller, explaining the slight difference in height between humans and norn.

I can’t say this is impossible, but the main problem in this theory it’s that 2’000 years are not nearly enough to produce an evolution that big.
An evolution like that takes million years (it’s not just getting taller, it’s becoming 2-3 times what you were as human, changing proportions of the body etc).
As a side note, if real world humans got much taller in the last 2’000 years it’s also because of the different life style (from “what is agricolture?” to industry, so we all have much more food and can grow taller).
Tyra didn’t have that kind of a change (and there would be no reason to see people get smaller anyway).
But Tyra has magic, so anything it’s possible.

This is why I think that the Kodan origin is, for me, more credible.
This in no way means that you are wrong and I’m right, just to be clear.

The Mists is the universe – or multiverse, as some sources claim. It is the source of everything – from the simplest bacterium to the largest star. Everything and everyone can trace its origins back to the Mists. It binds past, present, and future together, ergo; it is the Guild Wars universe. If someone comes from the Mists, it comes from the same universe as the one Tyria is in. And thus, the gods are indeed “space-traveling aliens,” even if it’s a huge oversimplification of the whole matter.

And even if you really want to believe your interpretation of the Mists – though chances are high that it’s wrong – it does not really hurt the theory of norn – human relation, as its foundation is that the norn are an “offshoot” of humans, thus the place of origin is completely irrelevant in this matter.

Also, I’d like to ask you the following question. Which one is more probable: starting as polar bears and becoming a very human-like species (changing every classification starting from order), throwing away the physiology of a polar bear and adopting that of a human – or one that is very close to it – in 3,000-4,000 years (I theorize that the last awakening of the dragons was around 2,000 BE, but even if it was 10,000 years ago, it doesn’t really change anything), or starting as humans and becoming a slightly taller and larger “offshoot” in about 2,000 years?

I’d like to turn the question back to you: Do you really think that 4,000-10,000 years is enough to produce an evolution that kitten kitten big?

Thalador.4218:

The Mists is the universe – or multiverse, as some sources claim. It is the source of everything – from the simplest bacterium to the largest star. Everything and everyone can trace its origins back to the Mists. It binds past, present, and future together, ergo; it is the Guild Wars universe. If someone comes from the Mists, it comes from the same universe as the one Tyria is in. And thus, the gods are indeed “space-traveling aliens,” even if it’s a huge oversimplification of the whole matter.

I don’t know if we can’t get at a common point or if you’re simply trying to be a pedant.
What I meant was that the gods didn’t came out of a shuttle from a planet behind the sun or something like that.
The fact that the Mist is the alpha and the omega and that it contains all it’s not something that actually matters.

Thalador.4218:

And even if you really want to believe your interpretation of the Mists – though chances are high that it’s wrong – it does not really hurt the theory of norn – human relation, as its foundation is that the norn are an “offshoot” of humans, thus the place of origin is completely irrelevant in this matter.

It’s not like I have a theory about the Mist, I agree with everyone else about it.
I wrote up here what I meant.
Anyway I never wanted to hurt the theory of norn – human relation with that.
I just said that norns being similar to humans it’s not that strage^^

Thalador.4218:

Also, I’d like to ask you the following question. Which one is more probable: starting as polar bears and becoming a very human-like species (changing every classification starting from order), throwing away the physiology of a polar bear and adopting that of a human – or one that is very close to it – in 3,000-4,000 years (I theorize that the last awakening of the dragons was around 2,000 BE, but even if it was 10,000 years ago, it doesn’t really change anything), or starting as humans and becoming a slightly taller and larger “offshoot” in about 2,000 years?

I’d like to turn the question back to you: Do you really think that 4,000-10,000 years is enough to produce an evolution that kitten kitten big?

Hmm, I guess I explained what I think in a bad way, or that you read it wrong.
To put it in a simplificated way, I said that it’s a more plausibile theory that kodans are norn blessed with eternal shapeshift in Koda form.
Or that all norn were, but at a certain point some of them lost the Koda blessing/got exiled and went south to live in the Far shiverpeaks were we meet them (thousands years later) in gw1.

This theory (I don’t say it’s the right one, Koda should be something similar to a Spirit of the Wild to be working) has no need of mllion years of evolution, that’s all.

Koda could be an aspect of Bear. Or more likely, Bear is a more animalistic and simpler aspect of Koda.

Well Tyria does have magic and I doubt it was Abaddon or the human gods who created it as the Jotun definitely had it.Its more likely that Abaddon showed the races how to use it. Magic may make evolution faster and cause several weird mutations.The Ettins might be an example of that.With their 2 heads.

As for the mists I see them as the space between universes.They are similar to the Warp in 40k and Oblivion in the Elder Scrolls.I would like to see a space based spin off of Guild Wars that has starships traveling through the mists.As a kind of hyperspace.

The deal about the human gods is that I believe them to not be actual gods but rather super evolved humans.Think of the Ancients from Stargate.Didnt a human in fact become one of the gods? To me a god must be omniscient omnipotent omnipresent and have no need for other gods.Yeah I know it sounds like the christian god but it doesnt have to be exactly that.Because if they are real gods then zhaitan should be considered a god as he seems to be just as powerful.

In a slightly different topic I would like to point out Humans probably came from our Earth.My theroy on this is that Guild Wars takes place in some far future point of our own history.Humans had to escape Earth probably because it was being destroyed by something.I would guess either because of war(perhaps between humans,a robot uprising, or alien invasion) or from my favorite theory that some cosmic horror(think Galactus,Unicron,Reapers,Cthulu) was hunting them to extinction in their part of the universe and fled to Tyria with the help of the “gods”.I like to think the Elder Dragons could in fact just be servants of a far more powerful evil.

Temihal.8651:

I don’t know if we can’t get at a common point or if you’re simply trying to be a pedant.
What I meant was that the gods didn’t came out of a shuttle from a planet behind the sun or something like that.
The fact that the Mist is the alpha and the omega and that it contains all it’s not something that actually matters.

I don’t see anybody – aside from you – who might have interpreted the phrase “coming to Tyria from the Mists” that way. For example, Lord Odran used portals (created by sacrificing dozens of people) to cross the Mists and step onto the surface of distant worlds. It’s very likely that the gods also utilized portal “technology” to bring humanity from their homeworld to Tyria – albeit in a much more “humane” way, hopefully.

Temihal.8651:

Hmm, I guess I explained what I think in a bad way, or that you read it wrong.
To put it in a simplificated way, I said that it’s a more plausibile theory that kodans are norn blessed with eternal shapeshift in Koda form.
Or that all norn were, but at a certain point some of them lost the Koda blessing/got exiled and went south to live in the Far shiverpeaks were we meet them (thousands years later) in gw1.

This theory (I don’t say it’s the right one, Koda should be something similar to a Spirit of the Wild to be working) has no need of mllion years of evolution, that’s all.

According to their creation myths, they were always polar bears, even before Koda made them his chosen. What you say is more plausible, but then it is opposing the current knowledge we have about the kodan.

Also, I strongly believe Koda and Bear are entirely different entities. Koda urges kodan to maintain the balance and yadda-yadda live according to that balance blah-blah, when Bear doesn’t give a kitten about balance. I’ll check out what Bear’s speaker says about her (!Koda is a he, Bear is a she!) exactly, but here is what Bear represents (copied from wiki):

Bear represents fortitude and self-reliance

Kodan on the other hand give up their own individual needs in favor of Koda’s will/balance.

As I said, Koda might have multiple aspects. But hey, it was just a thought that crossed my mind.

Also dont forget Bears are Earth animals.I mean its possible something bear like could evolve on another planet but its more likely all the Earth animals you see in Guild Wars were brought along with humans from Earth to Tyria.

On a side note one of the things I like about the GW games is that they have some very alien creatures like the riders.

Keep in mind that it’s actually suggested by Norn NPCs that Kodan are Norn who have been cursed by Bear to be stuck in bear-form to teach them humility. A second Norn NPC remarks that, if so, it isn’t working.

Temihal.8651:

I think it’s easier that a colder clima makes people shorter to consverve the heat, not taller. There are exceptions though.

Actually, in most cases it’s thicker fur or blubber. Norn naturally emanate heat though, and larger typically produce more heat too.

Temihal.8651:

Humans come from another dimension, they are not from this world.
Two similar races in two different dimensions (we can guess the other dimension it’s actually similar to ours if humans have this shape) it’s not something that strange.

In my mind Kodan being norns always shapeshifted in the “Spirit of the Wild” Koda form (then a group of them disagree/lose the Koda blessing and go back to their norn form) have more chances that norn coming from humans.

I don’t see how humans being non-native prevent norn from deriving from humanity. It would just mean that norn are non-native too. As for coming from kodan, technically it’d be that the norn are kodan who learned to shapeshift – for how kodan would view it.

Thalador.4218:

Given the fact that the first known record of humanity on the world of Tyria is from 786 BE, it’s likely that their arrival on that southern continent happened even earlier, say, 1,000 BE, giving both parties circa 2,000 years to evolve into their current physiology. The average height of us real world humans increased a lot in the same time, and then there’s the Scandinavian people who tend to be also a lot taller. Add a little magic to improve and quicken acclimatization, and you get the norn.

My personal theory is that the Dwayna came to Tyria while the Elder Dragons were still active, brought the forgotten to help combat them, and then humanity away from the conflict (south of Cantha) – all roughly at the same time. Which would place it during or around 1769 BE. This theory based on how Sieran notes the oldest dwarven ruins (Windy Caves) being from the beginning of dwarven civilization “over two thousand years ago,” and stemming from there in more or less irrelevancies to this particular topic.

If the Luxon legends talk about where humanity was first brought to Tyria (in a thriving location), then it wouldn’t be implausible that the norn were the first humans to return to continental Tyria, long before Orr, on their own – since given the lack of known god interactions with Canthans, they arrived on that continent before 786 BE (that’s when humans arrived on northern Canthans – the Luxons and Kurzicks were in the Echovald and Jade Sea already).

Current indications for the possible last timeframe of the Elder Dragon rise makes all of this possible, especially given the still not-debunked fact that the Six Gods brought the forgotten, who arrived on Tyria in 1769 BE, and humanity was brought shortly after Dwayna arrived on the world by all indications – this puts roughly 3,000 years for norn to evolve into who they are now.

Temihal.8651:

Thalador.4218:

Wrong. Humans have never come from “another dimension.” Both the norn and the humans live in the same dimension, however, humanity originates from a different planet.

Here you are actually wrong.
The Six aren’t (for what we know) some kind of space-travelling aliens, they came from the Mist.
We can argue about what the Mist is, but surely isn’t the equivalent of our space.
If you don’t like the word “dimension” we can call it world, i don’t really care that much.

I don’t think one can appropriately call other worlds as “other dimensions” – dimensions usually refer to an alternate reality, rather than another world. The Mists is much like outer space, but is also more. So I would agree with Thalador in that humans don’t come from another dimension. They do come from another world, and they arrived via portals, but this isn’t the same as another dimension.

(more in next post)

Temihal.8651:

I can’t say this is impossible, but the main problem in this theory it’s that 2’000 years are not nearly enough to produce an evolution that big.
An evolution like that takes million years (it’s not just getting taller, it’s becoming 2-3 times what you were as human, changing proportions of the body etc).
As a side note, if real world humans got much taller in the last 2’000 years it’s also because of the different life style (from “what is agricolture?” to industry, so we all have much more food and can grow taller).
Tyra didn’t have that kind of a change (and there would be no reason to see people get smaller anyway).

You’re making gross presumumptions. 2,000 years ago people very much had agriculture and the like. The Roman Empire was around for centuries already, and before that the Greek city states were well developed for just as long if not longer, and then there’s what comes before the Greeks. There’s not as huge of a leap in culture as you’re proclaiming. Also, as I said above, it’d be roughly 3,000 years. And it’s not that much evolutionary change – especially considering they’re in extreme climates, which call for faster evolution or else extinction.

Temihal.8651:

To put it in a simplificated way, I said that it’s a more plausibile theory that kodans are norn blessed with eternal shapeshift in Koda form.

Except that this doesn’t really work with known lore. It is possible that the kodan’s faith is wrong, but the current theories is that the norn come from the kodan, not the other way around.

Oglaf.1074:

Koda could be an aspect of Bear. Or more likely, Bear is a more animalistic and simpler aspect of Koda.

Personally, I think Koda is a persona that combines Dwayna and Melandru. Just look at the titles given to him, and then look at the Forgotten’s names for the Six Gods as a whole, and the domain of Dwayna and Melandru. Or possibly just Melandru

Koda is “the Ancient One, Founder of the Earth, Keeper of the Sky,” (from blog post), the Forgotten call the Six Gods the “Ancient Ones” and “Ancient Gods” – Abaddon is called the Keeper of Secrets, and the sky would be Dwayna’s domain thus she could likely have the title of “Keeper of the Sky.” Similarly, Melandru’s credited with creating the world, though we know this is false and in reality she terraformed parts of the world, thus “Founder of the Earth” could be accurate for her – alternatively, Dwayna’s the one who first stepped on Tyria, thus to the Six she “found” the world.

Guild Warrior.9540:

Well Tyria does have magic and I doubt it was Abaddon or the human gods who created it as the Jotun definitely had it.Its more likely that Abaddon showed the races how to use it. Magic may make evolution faster and cause several weird mutations.The Ettins might be an example of that.With their 2 heads.

Nothing to my knowledge says that ettins evolved that way due to magic. As for the lore behind magic – yes, it did exist before the Six Gods arrived on Tyria. but Abaddon didn’t teach the races how to use it, rather he used the Bloodstone which contained all the magic (the Bloodstone was made by the seers, containing all non-corrupted magic, including the jotun’s, to keep it from the Elder Dragons) and released it back into the world.

Guild Warrior.9540:

The deal about the human gods is that I believe them to not be actual gods but rather super evolved humans. Think of the Ancients from Stargate. Didnt a human in fact become one of the gods? To me a god must be omniscient omnipotent omnipresent and have no need for other gods. Yeah I know it sounds like the christian god but it doesnt have to be exactly that. Because if they are real gods then zhaitan should be considered a god as he seems to be just as powerful.

Firstly, you’re describing a monotheistic god. Polytheistic gods are nothing like that. Secondly, the power that the Six Gods have cannot be destroyed – it is the power that is immortal. It may change containers like how the power Kormir absorbed came from Abaddon, and previously had another container that was Abaddon’s predecessor, but that power is immortal. It is that power which makes them gods. And nothing says the Six Gods are humans.

Monotheistic gods almost never exist in fantasy. Because they are paradoxical to the nth degree.

(more in next post)

Guild Warrior.9540:

In a slightly different topic I would like to point out Humans probably came from our Earth. My theroy on this is that Guild Wars takes place in some far future point of our own history. Humans had to escape Earth probably because it was being destroyed by something.

A theory requires something to back it up. What you have is wild speculation which is just as likely as saying humanity came from Dhuum’s rear end.

Guild Warrior.9540:

Also dont forget Bears are Earth animals.I mean its possible something bear like could evolve on another planet but its more likely all the Earth animals you see in Guild Wars were brought along with humans from Earth to Tyria.

I think it’s more likely that Anet went the route of “familiar creatures mixed in with unfamiliar creatures” rather than going to say “they come from Earth!” I mean, you’ll be hard pressed to find a fantasy setting that doesn’t have at least 10 animals we can find in reality – ignoring humans. These are added either for familiarity of the audience, or because the makers don’t have imagination (or don’t want to put too much effort into them). Same with why there are so many races which are so humanoid. Aside from how most of said races tend to come from mythology, and you know humans of the past – putting everything in their image.

(Anet needs to make post sizes larger)

“A theory requires something to back it up. What you have is wild speculation which is just as likely as saying humanity came from Dhuum’s rear end.”

You clearly have not read all the lore for Guild Wars yet.Humans were brought to Tyria not created and they have some forgotten homeworld which is obviously Earth.Unless you know of another planet where humans also evolved on?

Grenth is half human and 2 different species cannot produce offspring which would make the human “gods” just humans with magical powers.Also Kormir was a human woman who was transformed into a god by abaddon.

Also you are wrong on the mono/poly thing in fantasy. Lord of the Rings has a single god and a host of angels which is what Gandalf is.WoW has light worship but that might be more on the lines of nature worship.WH40k of course has the god emperor of mankind.Plus gods cant be killed and we killed abaddon in GW1.

No, I have not read all the lore for Guild Wars yet. No one has. Guild Wars 2 still has a lot of undiscovered or unshared/documented lore behind it still. I’m sure almost all of it has been seen, though it hasn’t been documented nor is there one person who has seen it all – except maybe Jeff Grubb or some other developer of ArenaNet.

However, I know full well the story of humanity’s origins. And nothing makes it “obviously” earth that humanity came from. Nothing – and I mean nothing – needs the story of Guild Wars to be based in the real universe. It’s a fantasy story, Earth likely doesn’t even exist in the story of Guild Wars. All we have is humanity came from another world, which may or may not have faced some sort of devastation.

Kormir having been a human is irrelevant to this matter – what makes a god is the power they absorb, not their race. If a charr were to kill Kormir and absorb the power, that charr would be a god. No ifs ands or buts.

And how am I wrong in the monotheist/polytheist bit? I said, did I not “almost never” – meaning that monotheistic gods can exist in fantasy settings. They’re just very rare. And Guild Wars does not have a monotheistic setting. It’s polytheistic.

And gods can’t be killed? Go look up Egyptian, Norse, Celtic, Greek, Japanese, Aztec, Babylonian, and who knows how ever many other mythologies – the origin of the concept for gods. They all host gods who kill and were killed. They all host imperfect gods, gods who are not omni-whatever. These gods predate the Abrahamic and original monotheistic god in terms of worship in the human race. So don’t go saying gods can’t be killed, because the first gods known to human history are based upon stories of them killing their predecessors.

You are too focused on making the term “god” mean the individual “God” – and that is a grossly wrong assumption to make.

The charr are athiest and dont believe the human gods are gods.Just beings with immense power. Im athiest too( well agnostic actually) and one thing I dont like in fantasy games is having literal gods.I realize this is common in most settings but I always think of them as either forces of nature incarnate or some immensely powerful beings who claim to be gods.

For example if aliens came and visited our ancestors thousands of years ago would they not believe they were gods? Just because characters in game say they are gods does not make them gods.

You don’t seem to get it. An “immensely powerful being” IS what a god is. The powers of a god and why its a god varies from mythos to mythos, or story to story, but when you break it all down, that’s what a god is.

In most cases, they don’t age, and they can create races out of inanimate material (e.g., clay). They tend to hold domain of some aspect of life (elements of nature (fire, earth, ice, life, death, etc.), aspects of personality or action (war, love, craftsmanship).

This is what every polytheistic pantheon is when you boil it down.

And in GW2, the Six Gods are gods because they have an indestructible power within them – one that causes their divinity to blind those who look upon them for too long, and they seem to be unaging. This is why Kormir had to replace Abaddon – if that power isn’t contained, it goes cataclysmic. The Elder Dragons are not gods because they lack this.

It doesn’t matter if the charr don’t view the Six Gods as actual gods to worship (note: they’re not atheists – if they were, they’d argue the Six don’t exist, but they accept that they exist, and they accept that others call them gods, what they don’t accept is the act of them worshiping the Six – or anything else).

And I would argue, yes, if aliens were to have arrived when our level of technology was very low, people would have seen them as gods or god-like beings. In fact, this is a semi-common scientific thought to what angels and deities of ancient mythos actually were. It’s also a trope that advanced enough technology would look like magic to primitive people. But that’s a case of us calling them gods, not them being gods; and more of them having high technology, not being immensely powerful themselves.

You should also learn to detatch your personal beliefs and wants from the stories you read. Because no matter how much you want someone else’s story to be a certain way, it’ll be how that someone else wants it to be. So I’m sorry, but Guild Wars has literal gods.

Well then cant we all just agree that gods are beings we dont understand and magic is simply a force we dont understand?Also hopefully the origin of the Norn and of the human gods will be explored more in any expansions or additional content anet releases.I feel the story of how they came to be isnt really explained that well.

Oh and for those wondering I deleted my first post thinking it would delete the thread. I didnt realize so many people would disagree and im not a person who likes to argue.

I wouldn’t call it “arguing” – I’d call it “debating” and it’s rather a side-effect of this forum. Because we’re posting our theories, hypotheses, and speculations. And other people will disagree and will try to poke holes in the argument. It’s impossible to make something near everyone would agree with unless you make it full-proof, and this, you provide minimal strong evidence.

And I don’t think we can’t understand the gods or magic. I think what the gods are is fairly clear, as is what’s magic. The origins of both, however, is another story, same with their limitations.

And I’m sure we’ll get more history on the norn when we get to Jormag – we’ll be going into norn ancestral lands, just like we went into Orr which was full of ancient human/god lore. So I’m betting it’ll be full of norn/Spirits of the Wild lore.