Guild Wars 2

Yes, sylvari turned out to be dragon minions.
Yes, they turned on the pact (not all but still).

So what now? Are we going to commit genocide?
If we see a sylvari with glowing eyes, are we going to murder that poor soul, just because he is with the dragon now?

I don’t see some of my character willing to kill sylvari, just because they turned (unless in case of self-defense where they didn’t manage to neutralize them without taking their life).

They proved to have good and wrong sides. They are just like us. They didn’t ask to be Dragon minions. They were ready to fight along our sides. And we clearly can’t make so many prisoners as there are sylvari…

On an another note:
My sylvari turned. I mean, roleplay wise, I will make him turn. And I would hope, if he turns, that my friends won’t turn on me and try to make him gain free will again. But is it even possible? It seems that the ritual used on Glint (or even on the pale tree if it is the same thing) is not known by many.

What are your thoughts?

Unless you plan to tie them all up and ship them to Arah, there’s no real and easy cure for dragon corruption yet. Once they are corrupted, they are servants to the dragon now, and their only job is to further the dragon’s goal. That usually means trying to kill you, your loved ones, and destroying life as you know it for the glory of Mordremoth.

The Sylvari that have turned are Sylvari no longer. They are Mordrem.

Or to rework an old phrase for this situation, “Red (eyes) equals dead.”

They are dragon minions now, and act like them. Do you show Risen mercy? Mordrem wolves? No. So why show mercy to Mordrem based on humans instead of wolves?

Kill all corrupted Sylvari, I say. And treat those who aren’t corrupted (yet) with suspicion… for your own safety.

Mordrem wolves are creations. Risen are already dead, so…
And sylvari were once friends… I think I’ll lock them up in a farmhouse and wait till we find a cure… I mean a ritual…

Phineas Drayke.6381:

If we see a sylvari with glowing eyes, are we going to murder that poor soul, just because he is with the dragon now?

quickly unequips wraith mask

Mental Paradox.3845:

They are dragon minions now, and act like them. Do you show Risen mercy? Mordrem wolves? No. So why show mercy to Mordrem based on humans instead of wolves?

Kill all corrupted Sylvari, I say. And treat those who aren’t corrupted (yet) with suspicion… for your own safety.

The difference here, I think, is that we now know that a cure is possible, whereas for the entirety of the personal story, while we were cutting risen down in droves, it was believed there wasn’t one. That new information alters the moral equation, imo.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Mental Paradox.3845:

They are dragon minions now, and act like them. Do you show Risen mercy? Mordrem wolves? No. So why show mercy to Mordrem based on humans instead of wolves?

Kill all corrupted Sylvari, I say. And treat those who aren’t corrupted (yet) with suspicion… for your own safety.

The difference here, I think, is that we now know that a cure is possible, whereas for the entirety of the personal story, while we were cutting risen down in droves, it was believed there wasn’t one. That new information alters the moral equation, imo.

I don’t think you cure ‘cure’ the risen anyways. They are dead rotting corpses reanimated by the power of Zhaitan.

My philosophy is, if it tries to kill you, you kill it first.

Phineas Drayke.6381:

Mordrem wolves are creations. Risen are already dead, so…
And sylvari were once friends… I think I’ll lock them up in a farmhouse and wait till we find a cure… I mean a ritual…

I see what you did there…

kill them all.

How about we just wait and see how the Sylvari betrayal actually plays out in the game? If they are like other dragon minions then yes we have to cut them down. If they are somehow still connected to the Pale Tree by some deus ex machina magic of friendship hijinks (and this is Anet we are speaking of, they love Sylvari so much I’m sure they are going to go this route) then we can talk about saving them.

Dreamer Sylvari can probably be allowed to serve in their current roles (barring extremely sensitive ones) until it can be proven they are trustworthy. For safety’s sake, it’s best not to send them on any missions against Mordremoth until the PCs discover whatever deus ex machina device it is that will protect Sylvari from Mordremoth. (My guess is that it’s going to be Ascension, or something involving Glint’s egg.)

All Soundless Sylvari will need to be quarantined in the Grove and carefully watched over by the Wardens. While Mordremoth is awake, the Pale Tree may also need to forbid any Sylvari from going Soundless for their own good. Unfortunate, but it’s for their own good.

Nightmare Sylvari can be slain on sight as they always have been. :P

Erukk.1408:

Unless you plan to tie them all up and ship them to Arah, there’s no real and easy cure for dragon corruption yet. Once they are corrupted, they are servants to the dragon now, and their only job is to further the dragon’s goal. That usually means trying to kill you, your loved ones, and destroying life as you know it for the glory of Mordremoth.

Pretty sure shipping Sylvari to Arah to cure this so called dragon corruption would be a wasted effort. If Sylvari are corrupted then it was by Ventari! They are dragon minions, but not something that was corrupted into a dragon minion.

Phineas Drayke.6381:

Mordrem wolves are creations.

Mordrem Wolves have visible skeletons, so they’re more than likely corrupted and not created.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

The difference here, I think, is that we now know that a cure is possible, whereas for the entirety of the personal story, while we were cutting risen down in droves, it was believed there wasn’t one. That new information alters the moral equation, imo.

Curing them from what? There natural state? Both the chicken (definitely) and Glint (possibly) were at one point un-corrupted and turned into dragon minions. The Sylvari were always Mordrem as far as we know.

CureForLiving.5360:

Erukk.1408:

Unless you plan to tie them all up and ship them to Arah, there’s no real and easy cure for dragon corruption yet. Once they are corrupted, they are servants to the dragon now, and their only job is to further the dragon’s goal. That usually means trying to kill you, your loved ones, and destroying life as you know it for the glory of Mordremoth.

Pretty sure shipping Sylvari to Arah to cure this so called dragon corruption would be a wasted effort. If Sylvari are corrupted then it was by Ventari! They are dragon minions, but not something that was corrupted into a dragon minion.

I will agree from what Wynne said the Sylvari are/were meant to be dragon minions, but that doesn’t automatically make them such. I usually classify them are “unruly children” at the moment. Sure, children/Sylvari are suppose to follow their parent/Mordremoth’s orders, but since they have free will they can choose not too.

Glint and the Sylvari seem to be shaping up to be the same in that regard. After the Forgotten broke Glint’s connection to Kralk, she didn’t automatically turn against her master. That took time, and it only came after she started to see what the lesser races actually were and how her and her master’s actions effected them. Whatever happened to the Pale tree (and Mawdrey), whether it be from the Player, Ventari, the Forgotten, or whatever else, didn’t so much “corrupt” the minion into being nice, it simply gave them a choice in the matter.

The only reason we see them turning now is seemingly because Mordy is exerting his mental dominance over them and controlling them that way. Hence the “corrupted” sylvari gaining Mordy’s red eyes. It might be sad knowing that an innocent Sylvari doesn’t have a choice in what horrible actions its now committing, and it’s can only watch on as it’s body is being used by another, but unless Anet hands us a magical fix-it for this (which they probably will), our only real choice is to kill them. Capturing them, tranquilizing them, and transporting them to Arah would simply take too long and be too costly to do in mass.

@Cure, what the Arah ritual seems to do is technically break the mental link between dragon and minion, allowing the minion to develop/recover (unclear) a will of its own. Use of the term corruption aside, since it really has no bearing on this anyway, we know that the sylvari are capable of existing like this- it’s been the state of their whole race for the last 25 years.

@Erukk unfortunately, if there is a mass turning, that’s probably true. Still, if circumstances make it feasible, I’d like my character to at least be able to attempt the ritual. Partly because it’s the right thing to do, and partly because my inner asura would be fascinated with the results and what they reveal about the process.

Well first off, it seems to be a proximity thing. I don’t think Mordremoth just flipped the terminator switch on his Sylvari control panel at the exact time the Pact ships were overtop him. If he could do that, he probably would have during the attack on the grove. Considering the boldness and ferocity of the attack, it can easily be assumed Mordremoth wants the Tree dead. If he could have turned the Sylvari whenever/wherever he wanted, the Tree would be burning and almost every major icon of the races would be dead. The fight would have been over, then and there.

Secondly, it’s hinted that susceptibility to Mordremoth depends on the willpower and strength of the individual, being the dragon of mind and whatnot.

Thirdly, and probably most importantly, the Pale Tree has been responsible for protecting the Sylvari. At the time the Pact sailed, she was too weak to even maintain an avatar for more than a few minutes at a time. Without her shield, the Sylvari on those ships were far more susceptible.

It would seem probable that the Tree, when recovered (if she recovers), could ward the minds of the weak Sylvari again, snapping them out of the dragon’s control.

A lot is still up in the air (ha), but it’s pretty safe to say that unless one was on those ships they aren’t at any risk.

The problem is that until the Pale Tree recovers (or another safeguard is found/created), no one outside of the player character is safe.

Nilkemia.8507:

The problem is that until the Pale Tree recovers (or another safeguard is found/created), no one outside of the player character is safe.

And Canach and more than likely Caithe. All the different art during the unveiling suggests that he will be joining Marjory and Co, and Caithe most likely has plot armor (for now) like the player. It would be bad writing if they had her, “I’m stealing this egg to protect it from Mor—- ALL PRAISE HIS ALMIGHTY LEAFYNESS, MORDREMORTH!”

It’s obvious (since players can still be sylvari) that only the weak willed/insert other thing here, will turn to the dragon’s corruption. Also the Mordrem attacked the grove, pretty viciously yet the nightmare court was left alone this implicates that the pale tree to some extent knew that it was spawning the minions of a dragon and tried to raise it’s offspring in such a way that they wouldn’t fall to the dragon when the call came.

Long story short, dreamers are bred to resist the dragon’s corruption hence the very “for justice, goodness, and peace!” attitude a lot of them tend to have in some extent or another. Where as the nightmare courtiers are pretty much bred to be dragon’s minions hence the extremely violent and sadistic tendencies along with the slight obsession with pain, corruption, suffering, ect.

Of course there will be exceptions for either side but in terms of who to burn at the stake/preform acts of mass genocide on, the nightmare court is a pretty kitten good place to start. And when you don’t know who to trust, a dreamer is (probably an adventurer, hero, or soldier) probably your safest bet.

Or you know we could all just ignore this and break out into a civil war while being devoured/corrupted by a giant tentacle-plant-dragon-thing.

I don’t think we could say that the Sylvari are bred for/with specific traits at the moment. Especially considering that we only have one (possible) lone example of a Sylvari that was born free of outside influences (the Dream/Nightmare) in the form of Malyck, and he seems to be about an average guy.

The point about the weakening of the Pale Tree is an important one. Remember back in Episode 1 where we found the note about killing the leader so the rest would fall in line? The attack on the Grove was looking to carry out exactly that – kill the Pale Tree so the sylvari fall in line.

As the Pale Tree strengthens, the protection will also strengthen.

Furthermore, as observed above, the degree of control Mordremoth can impose also seems to be influenced by proximity. The sylvari are still the best weapon we have against the other dragons – particularly the Brand, which according to the lore still makes new Branded on a regular basis even if the PCs seem to be immune regardless of race. So, the sylvari can be corrupted by one dragon. Until not too long ago, the sylvari could be corrupted by none while every other race could be corrupted by at least three.

The part of Sylvari being immune to dragon corruption makes more sense now than ever before. It’s obviously not because they can’t be corrupted. It’s because they already belonged to Mordremoth all along.
Even if most of them have broken free from that corruption, I guess the connection will always be there hidden deep within – creating an immunity system against the other dragons.

Erukk.1408:

I don’t think we could say that the Sylvari are bred for/with specific traits at the moment. Especially considering that we only have one (possible) lone example of a Sylvari that was born free of outside influences (the Dream/Nightmare) in the form of Malyck, and he seems to be about an average guy.

Bred in the sense of how they are raised, dreamers are raised to be goodie-two-shoes who are all for justice and goodness whereas those of nightmare are corrupted and essentially re-educated into being a super “evil” and jerky you know kill everything(painfully), eating babies, the whole nine yards

However like I said that is only a generalization there will be cases like malyck, the play characters, or like the one nightmare coutier from the white stag storyline who break from that generalization

Titus.4285:

The part of Sylvari being immune to dragon corruption makes more sense now than ever before. It’s obviously not because they can’t be corrupted. It’s because they already belonged to Mordremoth all along.
Even if most of them have broken free from that corruption, I guess the connection will always be there hidden deep within – creating an immunity system against the other dragons.

It’s possible for a being to have corruption for multiple dragons. It’s more likely that in order for the protection to be strong enough to effectively resist Mordremoth, it had to be strong enough to be proof against all others. There is a connection, but it’s not simply that already having a connection to the dragons makes one immune… unless we’re entertaining the possibility of the same being true of the Forgotten.

Well, do we have any examples of beings that have had a connection to more than one dragon at once (or someone who’s broken free and then been corrupted by someone else)?
I understand your point about if a Sylvari is/was first receptive for a dragon’s corruption, Mordremoth would automatically take that place before any other dragon could. But consider this: wouldn’t it be possible for a sylvari to be born with the protection of the Pale Tree, then travel far away to fight against another dragon. Then gradually loose the tree’s protection (may it be due to proximity, an attack on the Grove, etc.) – wouldn’t that Sylvari then perhaps be more vulnerable to the closest dragon?

I mean, icebroods seem to be created first and foremost by proximity – so wouldn’t proximity be a factor even for sylvari? Though I guess Mordremoth’s hold over sylvari – in spite of proximity – may be explained by one of his spheres of influence being mind.

Subject Alpha.

To which many people then cried “ah, but that happened in a lab, it’s not a natural circumstance!”. They may be right, and minions may have some level of resistance to additional corruption.

However, as far as we know, the Inquest have never succeeded in corrupting a sylvari (and I’d bet my left arm they tried – there’s just too much potentially to be learned in the attempt) while they have succeeded in creating multi-corrupted creatures. This implies that the sylvari protection is stronger than that afforded to regular dragon minions. Which implies in turn that ‘minion status’ is not a sufficient explanation for their resistance.

The source of that (extra) resistance, as it turned out, was the Pale Tree’s protection through the Dream – protection that if not weakened by rejection of the Dream or near-mortal injury to the Pale Tree, is able to protect even against the dragon that they “belong” to.

Erukk.1408:

Nilkemia.8507:

The problem is that until the Pale Tree recovers (or another safeguard is found/created), no one outside of the player character is safe.

And Canach and more than likely Caithe. All the different art during the unveiling suggests that he will be joining Marjory and Co, and Caithe most likely has plot armor (for now) like the player. It would be bad writing if they had her, “I’m stealing this egg to protect it from Mor—- ALL PRAISE HIS ALMIGHTY LEAFYNESS, MORDREMORTH!”

I have a feeling that the Firstborn are the safest, simply because they seem have a very strong connection to the tree, even compared to other Sylvari.

I don’t really have anything specific to back this up, but it would make sense that her first children would have the strongest link, considering that they were alone with the Pale Tree for a few years.

As for Canach, regardless of plot armor, he would probably be too strong willed to easily be taken by Mordremoth.

draxynnic.3719:

Subject Alpha.

To which many people then cried “ah, but that happened in a lab, it’s not a natural circumstance!”. They may be right, and minions may have some level of resistance to additional corruption.

I can cry if I want to!

But seriously, the fact he kept breaking down and vanishing to me screamed instability. That and, given the nature of the experiments, it is simply not true Dragon Corruption coursing through its veins. But that’s neither here nor there, the point seems moot because low and behold – they are Mordremoth’s grand children.

I do think Primo could do something with their bodies but I don’t think he corrupts anything alike to what we’ve seen so far (Icebrood, Risen, and Branded).

Titus.4285:

The part of Sylvari being immune to dragon corruption makes more sense now than ever before. It’s obviously not because they can’t be corrupted. It’s because they already belonged to Mordremoth all along.
Even if most of them have broken free from that corruption, I guess the connection will always be there hidden deep within – creating an immunity system against the other dragons.

Ok I’m going to be very pedantic about the usage of the word corruption here, since by all accounts the natural state of Sylvari is a dragon minion. Since it is their natural state we cannot call it a corrupted state. Their natural state is not equivalent to say the Icebrood, Risen or Branded (who by all accounts are corrupted as they’ve been altered from their natural state into dragon minions). So saying the Sylvari have been corrupted by Mordy is to assume they have a natural state that is not that of a dragon minion. If anything the friendly Sylvari we’ve been seeing in game are the corrupted ones, having been altered from their natural state (Dragon Minions).
In this case the usage of the word ‘corrupted’ implies assumptions regarding the natural and unnatural states of the Sylvari.

draxynnic.3719:

Titus.4285:

The part of Sylvari being immune to dragon corruption makes more sense now than ever before. It’s obviously not because they can’t be corrupted. It’s because they already belonged to Mordremoth all along.
Even if most of them have broken free from that corruption, I guess the connection will always be there hidden deep within – creating an immunity system against the other dragons.

It’s possible for a being to have corruption for multiple dragons.

The examples we’ve seen have occurred in an unnatural state. It is possible, but the mechanics that would allow and disallow multiple corruption aren’t known to us. Maybe to be multi-corrupted requires some complicated process, or maybe you just need to throw enough different dragon magic at it. What we do have is examples of multi-corruption, but we also have the example of Sylvari dying when corrupted by Zhaitan. So we at present have two conflicting facts, or maybe not conflicting since we don’t really understand the mechanism of either. Thus leaving this squarely in the debatable category.

draxynnic.3719:

The source of that (extra) resistance, as it turned out, was the Pale Tree’s protection through the Dream – protection that if not weakened by rejection of the Dream or near-mortal injury to the Pale Tree, is able to protect even against the dragon that they “belong” to.

As far as I’m aware this is only explicitly stated to relate to Mordy’s corruption. It is assumed that it relates to the corruption of other Elder Dragons, but obvious it’s never explicitly stated leaving some wiggling room. For example we don’t see any Soundless Risen, implying that the dream might not have played as large a role in preventing the Sylvari from being corrupted by Zhaitan.

Killing off the Sylvari is a dream come true!

I see the sylvari as creations, like the destoyers. Not corrupted minions.

And in my personal opinon, I see them more like sleeping agents. Like they were meant to “infiltrate” the other races and than have them destroyed from the inside (order 66 anyone?). If I remember well, the jungle dragon is also the dragon of minds. If he has access to sylvari minds, he now has acces to all the races “minds” because he knows how they work, he knows their secrets, their tactis, etc simply because sylvari were accepted among all those races.

And the dream was a protection because it simply disconnected the sylvari from the dragon, but not completly like we saw in the final LS cinematic.

Ronin.7381:

But seriously, the fact he kept breaking down and vanishing to me screamed instability. That and, given the nature of the experiments, it is simply not true Dragon Corruption coursing through its veins. But that’s neither here nor there, the point seems moot because low and behold – they are Mordremoth’s grand children.

I always took it as an escape mechanism. My gut feeling is that something like that will turn out to be a manifestation of the DSD’s stuff – splitting up into liquid drops that reform somewhere else seems very fitting for minions of a water dragon.

On the bottom line, we don’t know how hard getting multicorruption to happen is, but we do know it’s possible. We’ve also seen no evidence that it’s possible to get corruption to stick on a sylvari – they either shrug it off or they simply die (and if it was as easy as it was to make Subject Alpha, then I’m sure the Inquest would have done it as part of their studies into dragon corruption and what can protect against dragon corruption). This implies that whatever protection they might have from their ancestry, they have something stronger – and that something stronger is the Pale Tree’s protection through the Dream.

The big reveal has been made now, so you can concede that the logic is sound now – it’s no longer a significant piece of evidence either way.

Phineas Drayke.6381:

So what now? Are we going to commit genocide?

I would actually love if Anet did a small scale genocide. It would be great storywise.

build a humongous altar that spans the entire maguuma – cure all of the corrupted creatures at once – may require huge magitech generators built by asura to power (luminates plant style generators) – maybe one for each pillar – if you could tap into the leyline network – that’d be even better – i assume we’d need a tonne of power for something that big http://i6.minus.com/i2IAiqX8sJbf4.jpg

They’re with the dragon now!
In leaf and twig and bough!
They’re evil, you see!
They fell from a tree!
They’re with the dragon now!

Sorry. That title. I’ve resisted for days, but…

Getefix.9150:

build a humongous altar that spans the entire maguuma – cure all of the corrupted creatures at once – may require huge magitech generators built by asura to power (luminates plant style generators) – maybe one for each pillar – if you could tap into the leyline network – that’d be even better – i assume we’d need a tonne of power for something that big http://i6.minus.com/i2IAiqX8sJbf4.jpg

Or it could be fueled with sacrifices, like how the bloodstones were being fueled by the White Mantle. Would make for an interesting moral dilemma. Kill thousands to safe millions?

thing is about the bloodstone was that they could turn souls into energy – we’d need a bloodstone for that – and im pretty sure there are more than 5 pillars needed – besides, sacrifices cant power an entire city – those generators can

hmmmm – it may need to be done after mordremoth is dead lest he take control over everyone again – plus we have no idea if it will strip away the dream or not

We just had a Sylvari killed in the sun tavern just yesterday. Forget about trying to purify them, they are being killed before they even exhibit any changes.