Guild Wars 2

No, this isn’t a thread about Sylvari philosophy. :P I’ve got a few questions regarding the Pale Tree, Caladbolg, and Trahearne. I’m hoping the questions I ask will spark a discussion, and hopefully give the devs something to think about when they’re trying to figure out what to add to future updates. Now onwards to the questions! There about 8 questions.

Section 1: the Pale Tree

1. Most of us know that the Sylvari experiences automatically go back to the Pale Tree, and we know that some of the info about the world goes to the Sylvari that are still in the Dream. My question is this: What does the Pale Tree do with the extra info? Keep in mind only the Pale Tree has access to this info (according to http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Pale_Tree ).

2. Do any of the other races know that a Sylvari’s experiences and memories go back to the Pale Tree?

Section 2: Trahearne

3. Inquring minds want to know: What is Trahearne’s real relationship to his mom? Is he a Mama’s boy, a controlled pawn, or what? No, I’m not trying to smear the guy. I’m one of the Pro-Trahearne people because my RL is similar to Trahearne’s life. ANYWAYS, after reading Dream and Nighmare on the GW2 wiki (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Dream_and_Nightmare), I couldn’t help but wonder about this. For some reason, everything in Sylvari society seems to go to him as if he were a prince.

4. About Trahearne’s various trips to Orr: Do you think this is his way to get away from his mom and her over-reliance on him? I hate to say this, but the Mama Tree is a teeny bit over-reliant on her firstborn son. Sorry, I had to ask. :P

5. Why did Caithe hesitate to introduce Trahearne to the Sylvari heroes? And why doesn’t the Pale Tree want anyone to question the Dream? For those who don’t remember this part in the game, the exchange went like this:

Avatar of the Tree: Caithe, I wish for the valiant to meet my eldest child.
Caithe: Trahearne has returned from Orr? Mother, is that wise?
Avatar of the Tree: Do not question the Dream. We must all play our parts.

Where I’m from, if a person says “Do not question”, it means it’s definitely time to question things! Caithe’s reaction also makes me very suspicious as well.

Section 3: Caladbolg

6. According to the GW2 wiki, Caladbolg has the ability to bring out the wielder’s negative qualities (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Caladbolg). Why would the Pale Tree create a sword that brings out the wielder’s negative qualities ? I believe this is how Trahearne eventually evolves into a j___ during the rest of the game. This sword definitely isn’t a holy sword!

7. When I saw the name Caladbolg, I automatically recognized it as the welsh name for Excalibur. In Irish and Welsh myth, Caladbolg is the sword that can cut through mountains (when it’s placed in the hands of an experienced swordsman). That means it could be easily used to destroy the Grove. Why would the Pale Tree create a sword that could be used against her?

1. My understanding is that the information and experiences go into the Dream itself – not directly to the Pale Tree. Of course the Dream is still relatively unknown.

2. Absolutely the other races know about the Dream and Sylvari’s experiences within it and of waking up. They’re a curious race and it’s understandable that they would want to compare their situation to that of the other races by talking to them about it. There are conversations throughout Tyria between Sylvari and the other races in which they discuss this.

3. Trahearne is one of the few firstborn and as such has a special link to the Pale Tree, one that only firstborn share in. On top of that he is one of the few Sylvari (ignoring that all player characters technically experience it…) who has been to Orr and has a Wyld Hunt directly relating to Zhaitan and removing the corruption from Orr.

4. Absolutely not. The Wyld Hunt is a powerful calling for a Sylvari, his trips to Orr are a reflection of his need to fulfill it.

5. No clue.

6. I think the idea is that life and growth require balance. To truly wield Caladbolg an individual would need to be balanced – not wholly good or bad. Therefore someone who was more bad than good would have that brought out by the sword and would thus be shown to be unworthy – their true nature becoming evident to those around them. But that is of course just personal opinion. I don’t think we know the answer to that for sure.

7. The name is taken from a real world thing yes, but that does not mean it’s power is equivalent. We don’t know just what Caladbolg is capable of doing – and I think realistically it’s power depends on the user. We know that Trahearne isn’t going to destroy the Grove. Also Caladbolg was created from the Pale Tree’s bark and as such I feel like it probably wouldn’t be so great for trying to destroy her.. She’s a pretty massive tree in case you hadn’t noticed it. That’s sort of equivalent to hitting a tree trunk with a tiny stick you took off one of the branches (granted a magic stick but still.)

For number 5, the only thing I can think of is that Caithe probably didn’t want to entangle the PC with Orr and Zhaitan. She was probably just looking out for us, knowing how bad they are (even though she knows our Wyld Hunt is for dragons x.x)

Also, Caladbolg was destroyed to cleanse the Source of Orr and bring about the coming rejuvenation of Orr.

1. The information actually goes to the Dream of Dreams, not the Pale Tree. Despite what may be common belief, the Pale Tree is merely the caretaker of the Dream of Dreams, and the Dream of Dreams is not unique unto sylvari nor are sylvari unique unto the Dream of Dreams (evidence: White Stag and A Light in the Darkness for former, Malyck for latter).

2. Unknown, really. The only non-sylvari known to have a continuous tie to the Dream of Dreams is the White Stag, but that connection is on par to the Pale Tree’s connection rather than a sylvari’s.

3. As said by FlamingFoxx, Trahearne is a firstborn – the sylvari society goes to all of the Firstborn (well, when applicable) for guidance as they are seen kind of like elders of ancient tribes were – knowledgable, wise, and good council. This is the very reason why Faolain was made leader of the Nightmare Court even though Cadeyrn was its founder and the one who pulled Faolain fully into Nightmare. Trahearne is perhaps seen as the one who’s gone to the most because the story thus far mainly revolves around Orr and he’s basically the #1 expert on Orr even outside of sylvari. I wouldn’t say he’s a “mama’s boy” – no more than any other sylvari at least.

4. No, it’s his way to work – and avoid – his Wyld Hunt. A Wyld Hunt is a calling, like destiny, to fulfill something or die trying – Trahearne’s is to cleanse Orr (once more, a major plot point) similar to Caithe (and the PC sylvari) needing to kill Zhaitan. Trahearne spent his 23 years of life studying Orr in order to fulfill this – though as he admits in the personal story, he also used this constant study of Orr to convince himself he’s not yet ready to attempt cleansing Orr thus sees it as him running away from his Wyld Hunt.

5. Hard to say since it isn’t explained – to my memory at least. But what I get is Caithe feeling that the PC isn’t ready, and the Pale Tree is telling Caithe that the PC must meet Trahearne to be ready. It might be explained if you talk to the NPCs after that cinematic, though I don’t think it’s up on the wiki.

6. Caladbolg brings out all qualities in an individual, it’s just not negative. It seems to be indiscriminant about the qualities in a person it brings out. And it likely is the reason why Trahearne’s effectively bipolar by the end of the personal story – going from “I can do this!” to “Oh woe is me! I have failed in my life!” to “I can do this!” It actually is a good explanation for his so-fast change of persona during Against the Corruption.

7. Its power is not the same as the mythological Caladbolg. If it were, then one would think of the norn as the three goddess sisters of fate from Norse mythology; or the asura has demons from Hinduism. Thankfully, though ArenaNet takes names from ancient myth, unlike the typical D&D they don’t have a perversed version of it. Well, except things from GW1 like dwarves and centaurs and harpies. 8D

1.) Like Foxx said, it seems that the experiences go into the Dream, not the Pale Tree’s mind. That said, the Pale Tree also seems to have unlimited access to the Dream, and I would expect that she uses the knowledge she can glean from it to help guide… whatever decisions it is that she makes.

2.) The sylvari don’t keep it secret, but the other races have issues wrapping their heads around the whole concept of the Dream, so I wouldn’t say it’s something they really get as common knowledge. I would expect those to whom it is relevant- say, the Master of Whispers- to know about it, and those who spend a lot of time with or among sylvari to have at least some vague conception of it (and probably misconception), but your average citizen of DR or the Black Citadel? Probably not.

3.) I’m… not quite sure what you’re saying there. Trahearne barely plays a part in that story, and he isn’t treated any differently than the other Firstborn. The Pale Tree chooses him to speak to simply because he’s the only Firstborn present who was wanting to plunge their race into a war. He spends most of his time away from the Grove, so I would think that he’s actually rather distant from the Tree.

4.) Again, I don’t get why you think that. Trahearne goes to Orr because that is his Wyld Hunt- he has an irresistible impulse to do so.

5.) As for the first part, if you read the line again, Caithe’s question was if it was wise for Trahearne to return from Orr. The dialogue isn’t up on the wiki yet, but immediately following that line, when you first go to meet Trahearne in Where Life Goes, he says “It is hard for me to return. Each time, I feel more and more distant.” Caithe and Trahearne are close. It isn’t your character she’s worried about, it’s him, and what returning to the Grove does to him.

As for the second part, the Pale Tree treats the Dream as a distinct entity who assigns the destinies of her children. When she says “don’t question the Dream” what she believes she is saying is “don’t resist what is supposed to be”… and to be fair, she has good reason to do so.

6.) It exacerbates the wielder’s qualities in general, not specifically the negative ones. It’s a sword. It does not have the capacity to make that kind of abstract judgement.

7.) Like Foxx said, while ANet may pull their names from various mythologies, that in no way means they’re meant to be anything more than very loosely related… and in this case, I think “magic sword” is as close as the relation gets.

To give other examples, Jormag does not wrap around the entire world, and the norn do not determine fate.

I’ll share what I know, but it’s subject to change as my knowledge and understanding of Sylvari culture changes:

1.) As far as I know, the Pale Tree doesn’t get to “keep” these memories. Rather, they’re automatically sent to the Dream and the Pale Tree is just there to keep an eye on it all. If I remember right she called herself a custodian of the Dream of Dreams, or something similar. So really, her only job is to monitor what goes in and what comes out; she doesn’t get to directly control the Dream, although it seems well within her abilities to do so. (Visions of Orr)

2.) Probably. Sylvari have been around for 25 or so years now, so it would be difficult to say that most races wouldn’t know this kind of thing. However, there might be a few people here or there that have yet to meet a Sylvari, so it’s entirely possible that one or two people do not know this.

3.) To me, Trahearne feels like a guy who grew up without much confidence. And for some reason people have given him a lot more praise than he should have had. People praise him for being one of the few to have seen Zhaitan, as well as survived multiple trips to Orr, but there’s nothing to indicate that he actually fought anything while there. Judging by how he acts in the earlier parts of the Personal Story, I’d guess he survived in Orr not by fighting Risen that tried to kill him (unless absolutely necessary), but by running away. And getting hailed as a hero for being a coward can hurt a man’s confidence worse than failing.

4.) Sylvari are a naturally curious people. I’d assume that despite his fear at the SIZE of his Wyld Hunt, he kept going back to Orr because studying it was the only thing he felt confident that he could do. Remember: A Wyld Hunt is more like a pulling sensation, that you (a Sylvari) must accomplish the task. If you’ve ever had a task or job that just made you feel awkward or uncomfortable until you or someone else did it, then you know what getting a Wyld Hunt feels like when you try to push it away.

5.) This is a strange question – and by that I mean a good question! I’m not really sure why Caithe would ask that. There isn’t really a reason to, because like Caithe, Trahearne is one of the Firstborne and has a lot more worldly experience that almost every other Sylvari alive (with the exception of other Firstborn). Considering that both you and he have similar goals, that she doesn’t want to pool resources and knowledge is very befuddling. Perhaps she just sees the two Wyld Hunts as being completely separate from one another, or perhaps she didn’t think about that at all. I don’t know!

6.) Caladbolg doesn’t intentionally bring out a man’s worst qualities, it just strengthens their defining qualities. Waine was afraid and irrational when he took Caladbolg from Riannoc and fled. Keeping the sword only made it worse as he grew up. Trahearne on the other hand, is an intellectual man trying to find the strength to do the right thing. Caladbolg only made these qualities better, and helped him achieve his goals in the end.

7.) I don’t think the Pale Tree would do something like that. Or if she would, she would try to make sure it only stayed in capable hands. Perhaps she just hopes it will do more good than harm.

1) I think all that information is part of the Dream, but because the Pale Tree is the caretaker of the Dream she’s able to access it when necessary. Think back to the first time we meet Caithe, when the Pale Tree allowed her to help kill the tutorial boss. Or the Personal Story chapter where the PC and Trahearne have to enter the Dream and they get a glimpse of their “future”.

2) Yeah, it’s a bit of a known fact that the sylvari’s memories go to the Dream for newly awakened to see. Hm… I wonder if that’s why the other races are a bit put off by the sylvari?

3) I’ve skimmed over this thread and I believe that there is a big fact about Trahearne that everyone is forgetting about: Trahearne is the first of the Firstborn. He was the first to awaken, and it seems to be like the relationship between a parent and his/her first child.

4) Maybe a little bit of both that and his Wyld Hunt. Trahearne was socially awkward before he left for Orr and only ever hung around dead things, the poor guy. On top of that his Hunt is to revive this corrupted land, something that seemed impossible before the events that take place in the Personal Story. The dude’s under quite a bit of pressure, and he needs all the help he can get.

5) Back to Trahearne’s socially awkward-ness, maybe Caithe wasn’t sure how he and the PC would get along?
Or maybe it was the Hunts, and because Caithe and the PC have such similar Hunts she’s being a bit protective of someone that understands her to an extent. She doesn’t want the PC to get involved with his seemingly impossible Hunt, because the PC could start to lose heart in his/her own Hunt.
[/sigh] I have no real clue, honestly. Just throwing out a couple theories. It’s something that’s never really fazed me until now, but now you’ve got me thinking about this.

6) Pft. I didn’t know that before now. I have no clue why the Pale Tree would do that, but at least it gives the Trahearne haters a reason to hate him. Trahearne had some character during the 11-28 sylvari chapters, but after he gets Caladbolg (which is pretty much where everyone that’s never played as a sylvari gets introduced to the guy) he seems to not have as much character. I haven’t played those chapters through in a while, but the way I remember it was he turns into the leader of the Pact and that’s pretty much it. I like Trahearne enough, but let’s be honest: the guy gets to be irking after a certain point.

7) Sylvari names are derived from Celtic roots and can be translated (i.e: Trahearne means “strength of iron”), so pulling names like that seems a bit commonplace to me. I don’t think that it’s meant to have any real-life connection to it. Maybe the devs named the sword Caladbolg as a joke?

On Caladbolg: keep in mind that sylvari are heavily inspired from Celtic lore. Current Celtic lore is heavily influenced from it’s pre-Christian origins. So the “holy” weapons don’t have the same connotation as our common present day western understanding would prescribe. ‘Holy’, in the deeply naturalistic culture of early Celts dealt with elements of nature. The noble as well as the naturally destructive.

The Celtic gods weren’t omnipotent. So the powers and artifact associated with them were more easily guided by personal choice than divine will or destiny. The same personal choice and option for bouts of emotional outbursts that was claimed by gods was echoed to humanity. And the holy artifacts wouldn’t fight human outbursts so much because it wasn’t against the nature of the gods that inspired the holiness. Now a specific artifact from a god of healing may resist a deeply hateful and violent agenda but we don’t see that this type of scenario applies to Caladbolg.

1.
Information is stored in the dream to prepare new sylvari for the coming world.

2.
Yes, they talk about it a lot

3.
He’s the first of the firstborn- hence making him a “prince” as you describe it.

4.
It’s his wild hunt to cure orr

5.
Unknown.

6.
The pale tree didn’t create it- the dream did, and it has no conciousness it self

7.
because the name is simmilar dosn’t mean it has the same properties. and techinically all weapons can be used against the creator of it.

6. It can be a holy sword. But the term ‘holy’ has diffrent connotations in some cultures than it does in others. A common theme in primal religions is that all life is a symbol of the sacred. There is no separation between living and worshipping. So holy ‘positive’ and negative’ aspects are both sides of the same coin. In mythologies like these, holy weapons are subject to the weilder. It almost guarentees them greatness in their endeavors but they often have no overarching guidline that they need to adhere to. or, depending on the domain of which god empowered the weapon, the guidelines have nothing to do with ‘good’ and ‘bad’. It makes the relics especially dangerous if they are placed in the wrong hands.

as I understand it, Trahearne is not A Firstborn, he is THE Firstborn.

the very first Sylvari, and thusly older and more experienced than every other. that’s why Sylvari continually go to him for advice and such.

The sylvari don’t go to him for advice, because he’s never around other sylvari – constantly in Orr, he is.

The sylvari go to the Luminaries, whom were the first four born after Trahearne (though a lore conflict exists in which they each claim to be the first born of their cycle…).

Question is; What circle is trahearne then? He was born first, but then one of the luminaries are lying. Hmm

Well some of the luminaries’ wording can be taken as “second of the cycle, but first when this happened”. The Dawn and Dusk ones say they awoke when the sun first rose/set on the race… so if Trahearne woke during those cycles, then it would’ve already rose/set, presumably.

I think he’s either Dusk or Night though. Given his personality, I’m betting Night, but Dusks are scholars too so.