Guild Wars 2

So as the title says this is a bit of a tinfoil hat topic, but I like things like this so why not?
Also this could contain spoilers for those who didn’t play the living story 2 so be warned!
My theory is that the Durmand Priory is Evil…yes… I’ll explain myself.
This idea came up after doing for the 4th time the Hidden Arcana (living story 2 mission).
I have to say that I was suspicious from the start, when you enter the Durmand Priory Basement you see this huge statue of Abaddon and the description on the base says ""Abaddon! Lord of the Everlasting Depths, Keeper of Secrets, open mine eyes and bestow upon me the knowledge of the Abyss…"—from the Scriptures of Abbadon [sic], giver of magic ". We know from Gw1 nightfall that Abaddon is evil, yes true he was the God of Secrets, so it makes sens that is guarding the secrets of the Durmand Priory, but still, he did a lot of bad stuff, he is like the Devil of Gw universe… for example (I take GW2W by word here) “the Searing of Ascalon, the Cataclysm of Orr and the Jade Wind of Cantha, as well as many tragedies which occured indirectly as a result of those events, such as occupation of Kryta by the White Mantle and their mursaat overlords, which led to the Krytan civil war. Abaddon created strife against and within the human race for many centuries, manipulating the Charr in their invasion of northern human kingdoms of Ascalon, Kryta and Orr, and ultimately causing civil war in Elona which, aided by his humanborn worshippers, nearly resulted in his release.” . So what? Abaddon worshippers in the Durmand Priory? Not suspicious at all they say…
Then when you go in the next rooms you start to see other things like the tail of Zhaitan hanging from the ceiling and some experiments connected to the dragons in the room closed by a metal grid where the tail starts.
One of my friends showed me the last time that if you dance in front of the statue of Abaddon the god will punish you by putting you into downed state, an yes I know, that’s an easter egg from gw1 dencing Abbaddon, but let’s say it has an actual meaning, that the god has still some power on the Gw2 world even though he should be deceased and his powers as we know it from Gw1 Nightfall was absorbed by Koromir and Lyssa.
So I ask, why?
Why is there a statue of the fallen god into the Basement of the Durmand Priory?
Why does he still have the power on life and death?

Also there’s the topic of the tail of Zhaitan.
Now we know that when a dragon dies a huge amount of power is released, we saw that with Mordremoth, but when we killed Zhaitan nothing like that happened, he fell in the sea and that was it. Then for some reason no one talks about it, the undead are still there and then our character, the Pact Commander discovers this hidden place right under the Durmand Priory with one of the tails of the undead Dragon, a tail that should be dissolved in my opinion after the dragon “died”…. yes “died” because after the fall of Zhaitan in the final mission we speak with Caithe, that sneaky, liar and traitor son(daughter) of a leaf, and she tells us that we succeded. (Totally no bad feelings left against Caithe…none XD)
No mission to be sure that the evil is dead right? And we end forgetting about it..
The start of the tail also is closed in this room where we can peek into from a metal grid, and what is clearly visible is that they are attaching machines to the tail, probably extracting it’s power…or maybe trying to revive the dragon or keeping him alive…
There are other experiments related to the dragon but you can’t get inside. You are the Pact Commander and you can’t get inside and have an explenation about what’s going on in there.
I guess is quite obvious then that there is something evil going on in the Durmand Priory, they are Abaddons worshippers with a twisted interest into the power of the Undead dragon, they took a piece of it and they keep it alive that near to our beloved LA, imagine if they manage to revive the dragon or something goes wrong, the city would be doomed…

I warned you! THE END IS NIGH!!!

You must also take into account that the Priory preserves history in all forms, even in the form of Zhaitan’s tail.

That statue of Abaddon is in pristine condition, and that is a rare occurrence, and should be preserved.

To me those are just poor excuses… I want answers from the higher-ups!

Dantert.1803:

“Abaddon! Lord of the Everlasting Depths, Keeper of Secrets, open mine eyes and bestow upon me the knowledge of the Abyss…”—from the Scriptures of Abbadon [sic], giver of magic ".

We know from Gw1 nightfall that Abaddon is evil, yes true he was the God of Secrets, so it makes sens that is guarding the secrets of the Durmand Priory, but still, he did a lot of bad stuff, he is like the Devil of Gw universe… for example (I take GW2W by word here) “the Searing of Ascalon, the Cataclysm of Orr and the Jade Wind of Cantha, as well as many tragedies which occured indirectly as a result of those events, such as occupation of Kryta by the White Mantle and their mursaat overlords, which led to the Krytan civil war. Abaddon created strife against and within the human race for many centuries, manipulating the Charr in their invasion of northern human kingdoms of Ascalon, Kryta and Orr, and ultimately causing civil war in Elona which, aided by his humanborn worshippers, nearly resulted in his release.” .

Abaddon was not inherently “evil”, though. Being locked in the realm of torment has adverse effects on all, even gods. All those events were to remove humans from the world as they were the followers of the gods who imprisoned him unjustly.

Though Abaddon is the “keeper of secrets” you can also look at that as the “God of Truth” as well. as one of the phrases stemming from his teaching is “act with magic, act within reason, act without mercy.” it can be safe to say he was also the most just god as he was imprisoned for distributing magic to the races of the world. The others are “evil” for trying to prevent that. And before you go and say “they were against it because the races were killing eachother” that is part of acting without mercy. The natural state would be for races who can think outside of instinct kill each other off until they can learn to live together in harmony.

It can also be speculated that the reason Abaddon was trying to distribute magic was because he knew about the Dragons and figured that if the races had magic they would stand a chance. Or that with magic being distributed to living beings it would be harder for the Dragons to consume it. And with that you can say that the other gods also knew about the Dragons and did not want to prevent them from rising again, thus putting the magic in easily accessible stones and imprisoning the one god who wanted to prevent the worlds destruction.

Dantert.1803:

So what? Abaddon worshippers in the Durmand Priory? Not suspicious at all they say…

As said above. Abaddon was not inherently “evil”. And on top of that was the “Keeper of Secrets and the God of Truth”. There for of course the Priory would worship a god of the like. And why not, then, worship the new Goddess of truth? Well because they probably, as many GW1 players do, view her as a false God. Not worthy of the title.

Dantert.1803:

Then when you go in the next rooms you start to see other things like the tail of Zhaitan hanging from the ceiling and some experiments connected to the dragons in the room closed by a metal grid where the tail starts.

The priory, like the other orders, are trying to find ways to defeat the Elder Dragons. Using the tail as a base for their experiments would not be beyond the realm of reason. If they can devise some sort of “anti-dragon magic” or “Dragon’s Bane” from Zhaitans tail, maybe it would work, or be the bases for producing one that would work, on the other Dragons.

Dantert.1803:

One of my friends showed me the last time that if you dance in front of the statue of Abaddon the god will punish you by putting you into downed state, an yes I know, that’s an easter egg from gw1 dencing Abbaddon, but let’s say it has an actual meaning, that the god has still some power on the Gw2 world even though he should be deceased and his powers as we know it from Gw1 Nightfall was absorbed by Koromir and Lyssa.

All this is is a non-canon nod to GW1. Has no bases in lore. Though, going with your theory; I will say that even if Kormir absorbed all of Abaddons magic it can be safe to say she absorbed some of the magic that had been twisted from his time in the Realm of Torment. Would not be out of bounds to say that with the knowledge she obtained from him that she now fully understands where he was coming from, and through his remaining effigies, is trying to continue his work in the end. Though this would not be brought on by who he originally was but rather by his twisted tormented self when we finally ended him (if he truly did die).

Dantert.1803:

So I ask, why?
Why is there a statue of the fallen god into the Basement of the Durmand Priory?
Why does he still have the power on life and death?

As has been stated. It is in mint condition. Whether is was recently crafted or found else where it is a part of history and a symbol of the true God of Knowledge. Thus reason for the priory, keepers of history and wisdom, to have such an item.

Dantert.1803:

Also there’s the topic of the tail of Zhaitan.
Now we know that when a dragon dies a huge amount of power is released, we saw that with Mordremoth, but when we killed Zhaitan nothing like that happened, he fell in the sea and that was it. Then for some reason no one talks about it, the undead are still there and then our character, the Pact Commander discovers this hidden place right under the Durmand Priory with one of the tails of the undead Dragon, a tail that should be dissolved in my opinion after the dragon “died”…. yes “died” because after the fall of Zhaitan in the final mission we speak with Caithe, that sneaky, liar and traitor son(daughter) of a leaf, and she tells us that we succeded. (Totally no bad feelings left against Caithe…none XD)
No mission to be sure that the evil is dead right? And we end forgetting about it..
The start of the tail also is closed in this room where we can peek into from a metal grid, and what is clearly visible is that they are attaching machines to the tail, probably extracting it’s power…or maybe trying to revive the dragon or keeping him alive…
There are other experiments related to the dragon but you can’t get inside. You are the Pact Commander and you can’t get inside and have an explenation about what’s going on in there.

<Equips tinfoil hat> Alright, so onto Zhaitan’s “fall”. As we don’t actually see it’s dead body anywhere, just the tail that we managed to blow off, we can not confirm nor deny that it is dead. Unlike Mordremoth in whom we’ve killed both in mind (Through PS) and in body (Through DS) and can sort of confirm through the final cut that it’s power is in fact released from it; we can not say the same for Zhaitan.

Now here’s where the theory comes in: There is an area in Orr that we were supposed to get for the final, ground, battle against Zhaitan. This area is still there and I’m sure Anet has not forgot about it, given the vision we have in Omadds’ Machine (oh yes, remember that). It was confirmed later on by means of the Durmand Priories ceiling that the orb that crashed into the center was Zhaitans. So this could easily mean that Zhaitan is not in fact dead and still threatens Tyria. Now, I would have ignored this theory if not for the way they are handling Raids. Through a raid they could easily take us back to Orr for the final push and eventual kill of Zhaitan (A true battle worthy of an Elder!)

Dantert.1803:

I guess is quite obvious then that there is something evil going on in the Durmand Priory, they are Abaddons worshippers with a twisted interest into the power of the Undead dragon, they took a piece of it and they keep it alive that near to our beloved LA, imagine if they manage to revive the dragon or something goes wrong, the city would be doomed…

Final note on this. If you try to tell me that all followers of Abaddon are twisted evil creations and point to the Margonites. I will state this simply; Margonites followed Abaddon before his fall and instead of giving up on him continued to follow him. And even Margonites can distinguish between right and wrong as we have seen with a few NPCs in the realm of torment. Priory are seekers of wisdom. Abaddon is the God of Wisdom. No reason to believe them evil or having an ulterior motive simply because they follow such a god. I, for one, still believe Abaddon as the only true God of Secrets, Wisdom, and Truth.

Dantert.1803:

I have to say that I was suspicious from the start, when you enter the Durmand Priory Basement you see this huge statue of Abaddon and the description on the base says ""Abaddon! Lord of the Everlasting Depths, Keeper of Secrets, open mine eyes and bestow upon me the knowledge of the Abyss…"—from the Scriptures of Abbadon [sic], giver of magic ".

That inscription is from the Scriptures of Abaddon. I’m not so sure why this is so strange.

Dantert.1803:

We know from Gw1 nightfall that Abaddon is evil, yes true he was the God of Secrets, so it makes sens that is guarding the secrets of the Durmand Priory,

Technically, he as the god of knowledge and wisdom – until his fall where he became the god of secrets because he himself was a secret.

The Priory hold onto ancient knowledge, even dangerous stuff like the Sanguinary Blade. Most of this is done to keep it out of the wrong hands, as well as to study to make use of it for the side of good – but always within extreme caution… well, usually.

Dantert.1803:

Abaddon worshippers in the Durmand Priory? Not suspicious at all they say…

Not sure how you get to the conclusion that Abaddon statue = Abaddon worship.

It’s a museum.

Dantert.1803:

One of my friends showed me the last time that if you dance in front of the statue of Abaddon the god will punish you by putting you into downed state, an yes I know, that’s an easter egg from gw1 dencing Abbaddon, but let’s say it has an actual meaning, that the god has still some power on the Gw2 world even though he should be deceased and his powers as we know it from Gw1 Nightfall was absorbed by Koromir and Lyssa.

Lyssa didn’t absorb any of Abaddon’s power.

Besides, it’s well established in [Containment](http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Containment) and throughout Orr that the statues of the gods have magic in them, left there from centuries ago, and are still able to be tapped today.

So Abaddon’s statue having magic within it is unrelated to Abaddon’s state of being.

Dantert.1803:

Why is there a statue of the fallen god into the Basement of the Durmand Priory?

Why not have an archaic statue of the god of knowledge in the foyer of a museum?

Dantert.1803:

Why does he still have the power on life and death?

He doesn’t.

Dantert.1803:

Also there’s the topic of the tail of Zhaitan.
Now we know that when a dragon dies a huge amount of power is released, we saw that with Mordremoth, but when we killed Zhaitan nothing like that happened, he fell in the sea and that was it.

Two things.

1) Technically speaking, when we see Mordremoth’s body die we don’t see the release of magic. That release in the artistic cinematic was not how characters saw things – same with the end of Season 1’s cinematic, as afterwards NPCs mention a ‘brief light’ not a gargantuan beam that traveled across the face of Tyria.

2) Zhaitan didn’t fall in the sea, but on land. We never saw its body upon death, so we couldn’t tell if there was that brief light – the only way to see it without ArenaNet giving us an out-of-perspective view like they did for the end of Season 1 and end of HoT.

Dantert.1803:

Then for some reason no one talks about it, the undead are still there and then our character, the Pact Commander discovers this hidden place right under the Durmand Priory with one of the tails of the undead Dragon, a tail that should be dissolved in my opinion after the dragon “died”…. yes “died” because after the fall of Zhaitan in the final mission we speak with Caithe, that sneaky, liar and traitor son(daughter) of a leaf, and she tells us that we succeded. (Totally no bad feelings left against Caithe…none XD)

1) It’s explicitly stated at the end of Victory or Death by Trahearne that the risen will remain to be a threat. They do not drop dead just because Zhaitan did.
2) Why would the tail dissolve? It’s undead, not foam.
3) We didn’t really discover the place, we just had no reason to go there before. The Special Collections area is mentioned several times to Priory characters – and is where the Sanguinary Blade is placed (as well as where Sieran gets a bunch of oddities – and other characters get other oddities).
4) Caithe isn’t a liar nor a traitor. She actually acts no different in S2/HoT than she does anywhere else. Why everyone think she does is the oddity, not Caithe. The only oddity is her excuse.

Dantert.1803:

No mission to be sure that the evil is dead right? And we end forgetting about it..

Cue the ever so common “there was a plan for it but for development time reasons it got cut”

Originally, Zhaitan’s body was to be visible in Arah explorable mode – along the Seer path, specifically. However, near the end they changed Zhaitan’s model to Kekai’s awesome dragon made out of lesser dragons. But due to this, they could not work in the time to make a new dragon corpse for the path (because that’s very hard?), and in turn had to scrap the idea.

There was a beta version of the Arah map which was found which showed Zhaitan’s corpse, and it was even in the trailer apparently. [Zhaitan’s Rest](http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Zhaitan's_Rest) is where the body was to be.

Dantert.1803:

The start of the tail also is closed in this room where we can peek into from a metal grid, and what is clearly visible is that they are attaching machines to the tail, probably extracting it’s power…or maybe trying to revive the dragon or keeping him alive…

Or just studying it. Since that’s what they do – try to figure out means to better fight the dragons.

Your tinfoil hat theory is describing the Inquest, a known rival of the Priory.

Dantert.1803:

You are the Pact Commander and you can’t get inside and have an explenation about what’s going on in there.

Because it’s not the main plot, or even a side plot. It’s just an easter egg.

Lies. If anything, the Order of Whispers are the evil ones.

4) Caithe isn’t a liar nor a traitor. She actually acts no different in S2/HoT than she does anywhere else. Why everyone think she does is the oddity, not Caithe. The only oddity is her excuse.

Actually…yes, while she wasn’t a traitor in the end, both her actions at the end of Tangled Roots and in Point of No Return were oddities, along with her pitiful excuse. It really felt like a pointless way to add drama of “is she a traitor or not?” and was resolved so pitifully.

Caithe has always, since Edge of Destiny, acted before explaining or considering the emotions of others. She has always put “what must be done” before any consideration of other people’s view on the situation.

So no, her taking the egg immediately out of a mordrem-infested location because she actually knew where it needed to be taken, rather than waiting for the group to recover after the Master of Peace’s death and explain it all to them is not an oddity. Her taking the egg when the Shadow of the Dragon attacks and using us as a diversion (since we’re its targets anyways) is not an oddity in her behavior.

The only oddity is the “I’m sorry Commander, it was my Wyld Hunt, I couldn’t control myself” – she’s done stuff like this in the past, be it minor (like randomly running into LA to stop an illegal bear fighting arena without telling Rytlock and Logan why she’s randomly running forward) or major (like calling together DE without regard to how they would react to each other to try to force them to work together because they’re needed in Tyria). They didn’t need to have any explanation beyond “I did what I believe needed to be done.” Because that’s been her reasoning for her actions for as long as we’ve known her.

So her actions was not strange. And the PC, Rytlock, and Canach know her well enough to know that they were not strange. They were questionable given the situation, but I think those three individuals should have had enough trust in her not to threaten her life or disarm her in the middle of enemy territory. It was a good opportunity to create a schism between Marjory, Rox, Kasmeer, Braham, and the other three/four (if you count Caithe as the fourth).

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Why not have an archaic statue of the god of knowledge in the foyer of a museum?

/nitpick mode on

Technically that is not an archaic statue, it’s more classical if not hellenistic in style.

/nitpick mode off

I was using the term under its definition of “very old or ancient” rather than the artistic style.

Don’t worry I know, I just need this from time to time to feel better about myself. /s

The Inquest isn’t precisely evil either. They are horrible little jerks true, but they’re still fighting the dragons as a rouge element. Given how successful the research in CoE was I’d actually assume that they were close to pulling off a win and establishing Asura domination.

They’re not fighting the Elder Dragons, they’re capturing, studying, and trying to control them.

The only racial rival faction fighting Elder Dragons as well are the Nightmare Court.

The bandits/White Mantle seem to just be ignoring them. Sons of Svanir follow Jormag. Inquest are trying to control them. Flame Legion believe they’ll survive their cycle.

Finalfreefall.8247:

The Inquest isn’t precisely evil either. They are horrible little jerks true, but they’re still fighting the dragons as a rouge element. Given how successful the research in CoE was I’d actually assume that they were close to pulling off a win and establishing Asura domination.

Not evil? Both their methods (i.e. cruel experiments, stealing ideas, stealing inventions and the like) and their goals (Asura domination) sound evil enough to me. They might not be evil in the sense that they want to kill everyone or destroy everything but that’s about it. And like Konig said, they are not fighting the dragons.

That’s the standard MO for the inquest though, they’re an aggressive version of the Priory who lost their books and hordes of information (quora sum) and are out to regain it and insure that such a loss can’t happen again. Yeah, they’re jerks but they’re actively trying to get control over the dragons to insure such a loss can’t happen again.

And how is researching a way to control the dragons any worse then the Priory’s research to destroy the dragons? At least the Inquest is less wasteful.

Diovid.9506:

Not evil? Both their methods (i.e. cruel experiments, stealing ideas, stealing inventions and the like) and their goals (Asura domination) sound evil enough to me. They might not be evil in the sense that they want to kill everyone or destroy everything but that’s about it. And like Konig said, they are not fighting the dragons.

They’re cool with that though, as are the other Asura. (Inquest is seen as an unplesant element but useful) And it’s not like Asura don’t believe themselves more important than the bookahs anyway.

Finalfreefall.8247:

That’s the standard MO for the inquest though, they’re an aggressive version of the Priory who lost their books and hordes of information (quora sum) and are out to regain it and insure that such a loss can’t happen again. Yeah, they’re jerks but they’re actively trying to get control over the dragons to insure such a loss can’t happen again.

And how is researching a way to control the dragons any worse then the Priory’s research to destroy the dragons? At least the Inquest is less wasteful.

Er… while the open MO for Inquest is to ‘never lose knowledge’, they’re also selfishly ambitious. They aren’t so much out there to regain lost knowledge, but their formation was designed to prevent further loss of knowledge. That doesn’t mean, however, that it wasn’t taken over by selfishly ambitious people since.

In effect, they’d use the Elder Dragons’ power to subjugate the other races – and other asura – under their control.

Finalfreefall.8247:

They’re cool with that though, as are the other Asura. (Inquest is seen as an unplesant element but useful) And it’s not like Asura don’t believe themselves more important than the bookahs anyway.

This isn’t correct at all.

The asura populace accept the Inquest solely because the Arcane Council allows them to work there – and they do it because most of the Council wants more time for their own works (thus they don’t mind delegating stuff to the Inquest, who wants the Council’s roles – something exceptionally rare among asura), and the High Councillor Flax being of the mind of ‘anything to let asura have a higher place’ (which is not common mentality for the asura).

The asura populace – as easily shown across the Hinterlabs – outright detest Inquest. This is why one of the first Metrica Province hearts has someone asking us to deter Inquest recruiters – which we do by… killing them.

What you’re describing is actually closer to the norn’s take on the Sons of Svanir – which is typically a ‘judge the individual not the group – if I have a beef against one Son of Svanir, I won’t take it out on other Sons of Svanir, and I won’t have a beef against the Sons of Svanir just because they decide to be idiots and worship something that wants to kill them.’

So no, her taking the egg immediately out of a mordrem-infested location because she actually knew where it needed to be taken, rather than waiting for the group to recover after the Master of Peace’s death and explain it all to them is not an oddity.

1: By the time one reaches the egg, most if not all of the Mordrem get cleared while rescuing the party. Not so infested by then.

2 : If she was so focused on getting the egg, why didn’t she take it out of there while the group was fighting the Mordrem Predator? “I’ll get the egg, you kill that monster!” She certainly wasn’t helping fight it after all.

3 : All she would’ve had to say is “I know where it goes, I’ll tell you later.” Couldn’t have taken much longer to say than “no time to explain”, along with that pause before she swipes it. No one expected her to stand there and tell the whole story right away. Or, since she stopped back at the camp before heading out, she could’ve instead said to meet her back at Camp Resolve and she could’ve explained there.

Her taking the egg when the Shadow of the Dragon attacks and using us as a diversion (since we’re its targets anyways) is not an oddity in her behavior.

So abandoning those who should be her allies to potential death is not an oddity?

she’s done stuff like this in the past, be it minor (like randomly running into LA to stop an illegal bear fighting arena without telling Rytlock and Logan why she’s randomly running forward) or major (like calling together DE without regard to how they would react to each other to try to force them to work together because they’re needed in Tyria).

Those actions did not put anyone else at undue risk, and in the case of the latter, her reason was clear and explained : She thought they needed to rejoin together.

Point is, while she didn’t turn out to be a liar or traitor, her actions gave off the chance that she might be slipping. Her actions during Season 2 and HoT regarding the egg made her look incompetent at best, or a potential turncoat at worst.

Although, I suppose we can agree on one thing, her excuse was so stupid and absurd that the only decent explanation would be that Mordremoth was messing with her head via the Wyld Hunt (seeing as she nearly lost it to a giant mutated Faolain of all things, what happened to her plot Shadowstep then?)

Edit :

. It was a good opportunity to create a schism between Marjory, Rox, Kasmeer, Braham, and the other three/four (if you count Caithe as the fourth).

What schism? While Marjory and Braham definitely voiced their distrust of her, none of the others really seemed to care either way. The only one that tried to defend her actions was the player character (due to plot stupidity giving us no choice), and that stopped after we found out about the centaur massacre and Wynne’s death, along with her ditching us a second time.

Nilkemia.8507:

1: By the time one reaches the egg, most if not all of the Mordrem get cleared while rescuing the party. Not so infested by then.

If you exclude the one nigh immortal mordrem which we never killed, then yes. However, I would still consider that place infested even excluding that one.

Nilkemia.8507:

2 : If she was so focused on getting the egg, why didn’t she take it out of there while the group was fighting the Mordrem Predator? “I’ll get the egg, you kill that monster!” She certainly wasn’t helping fight it after all.

She technically was – all iconic/biconic NPCs in Season 2 are invincible but deal so little damage they’d kill a standard ambient foe in five years of continuous combat without dying.

Nilkemia.8507:

3 : All she would’ve had to say is “I know where it goes, I’ll tell you later.” Couldn’t have taken much longer to say than “no time to explain”, along with that pause before she swipes it. No one expected her to stand there and tell the whole story right away. Or, since she stopped back at the camp before heading out, she could’ve instead said to meet her back at Camp Resolve and she could’ve explained there.

Which goes to the ‘she acts before thinking’ bit. Explanations aside, her actions aren’t unusual. In fact, her saying ‘no time to explain’ is more words than she’d usually give.

Nilkemia.8507:

So abandoning those who should be her allies to potential death is not an oddity?

Given she knows how good her allies are, and that the mordrem’s ultimate goal is the egg, taking out the valuable and vulnerable artifact that cannot fight back instead of assisting the rough and tough Elder Dragon slayer and his/her friends is, indeed, not an oddity.

Nilkemia.8507:

Those actions did not put anyone else at undue risk, and in the case of the latter, her reason was clear and explained : She thought they needed to rejoin together.

Yes, putting two people who wanted to kill each other at arm’s length was indeed not putting anyone at risk.

>.>

Nilkemia.8507:

Her actions during Season 2 and HoT regarding the egg made her look incompetent at best, or a potential turncoat at worst.

Her being seen by everyone in HoT made her look incompetent, not the rest.

Nilkemia.8507:

what happened to her plot Shadowstep then?)

She was in shock at that moment.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Nilkemia.8507:

So abandoning those who should be her allies to potential death is not an oddity?

Given she knows how good her allies are, and that the mordrem’s ultimate goal is the egg, taking out the valuable and vulnerable artifact that cannot fight back instead of assisting the rough and tough Elder Dragon slayer and his/her friends is, indeed, not an oddity.

I’d like to add to that that the player character- in the scene with the Faolaintooth, which you mentioned above- later does the exact same thing Caithe did. As the happened, the fearsome foe that time gave chase instead of sticking with the distraction, but nonetheless we’re just as guilty for leaving our allies in the lurch with scarcely any hesitation.

If you exclude the one nigh immortal mordrem which we never killed, then yes. However, I would still consider that place infested even excluding that one.

It can be killed, it just gets back up until the whole party is together, after which it just vanishes. And, the bioluminescent ones were not present and thus irrelevant.

She technically was –

Unless they fixed that bug(?) where she just stands at the entrance to the room while the others attack the boss, no she does not help you.

Yes, putting two people who wanted to kill each other at arm’s length was indeed not putting anyone at risk.

>.>

I’d like to think the others wouldn’t just stand there and let them try to kill each other (except maybe Zojja), considering it wasn’t until Citadel of Flame that the two finally tried to do it, before we break that up.

Her being seen by everyone in HoT

Prior to catching up with her proper, only 2 or 3 NPCs in the story spotted her at all (one named Pact NPC, a native hylek scout, and and maybe a third NPC in Auric Basin, uncertain).

Not quite everyone in HoT. Still incompetent though.

She was in shock at that moment.

The only thing that should’ve given her any shock was Faolain turning out to be a Vinetooth. She already knows Faolain is evil and not to be trusted, which should’ve made her more on guard right way, even if she didn’t consider that Faolain could’ve been turned by then. Yet she arguably ends up explaining more to Mordrem!Faolain than she ever did to us, until near the end.

And then we end up accomplishing her task anyways, despite her head start. She was rash, incompetent, and useless.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

I’d like to add to that that the player character- in the scene with the Faolaintooth, which you mentioned above- later does the exact same thing Caithe did. As the happened, the fearsome foe that time gave chase instead of sticking with the distraction, but nonetheless we’re just as guilty for leaving our allies in the lurch with scarcely any hesitation.

Not quite. Caithe did it without the team’s prior knowledge or consent, and without explanation to her motives, as if we were just pawns. In our case, the whole team knew why we were running with the egg, and thus meant to distract Faolaintooth (nice nickname, I think I’ll stick with that now). I think Rytlock even tells you to grab the egg and go.

Also, as you pointed out, Faolaintooth immediately gave chase on us, and thus wasn’t threatening the others. But if she was, we knew they at least stood a chance since we had fought and killed a Vinetooth prior to this. (general NPC incompetence notwithstanding)

When Caithe ditched us the second time, it was to the Shadow of the Dragon, a creature we had only fought off previously with the Pale Tree’s help (which left her near death), and she certainly didn’t know about the Divine Fire or that it could harm the dragon champion. Thus, she left us to a fight that for all she knew, we might not win.

And finally, our character did try to return to find our team once the egg was secured and check up on them to make sure they were okay. Caithe did no such thing, even after we accomplished her mission for her.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Er… while the open MO for Inquest is to ‘never lose knowledge’, they’re also selfishly ambitious. They aren’t so much out there to regain lost knowledge, but their formation was designed to prevent further loss of knowledge. That doesn’t mean, however, that it wasn’t taken over by selfishly ambitious people since.

In effect, they’d use the Elder Dragons’ power to subjugate the other races – and other asura – under their control.

This isn’t correct at all.

The asura populace accept the Inquest solely because the Arcane Council allows them to work there – and they do it because most of the Council wants more time for their own works (thus they don’t mind delegating stuff to the Inquest, who wants the Council’s roles – something exceptionally rare among asura), and the High Councillor Flax being of the mind of ‘anything to let asura have a higher place’ (which is not common mentality for the asura).

The asura populace – as easily shown across the Hinterlabs – outright detest Inquest. This is why one of the first Metrica Province hearts has someone asking us to deter Inquest recruiters – which we do by… killing them.

What you’re describing is actually closer to the norn’s take on the Sons of Svanir – which is typically a ‘judge the individual not the group – if I have a beef against one Son of Svanir, I won’t take it out on other Sons of Svanir, and I won’t have a beef against the Sons of Svanir just because they decide to be idiots and worship something that wants to kill them.’

Woah woah woah woah, the Inquest operates freely under the use of the arcane council. And the secret Asura Police. They’re basically open-minded public servants who accept everyone and send them off to do dangerous and thankless work. And as for Asura sending crazy loons (us) to attack the Inquest that’s not uncommon. Heck, in Asura culture it’s normal to undermine your rivals or anyone who could be considered dangerous.

I think we just have a different take on Asura as a whole, if the Dragons weren’t a threat, I think they’d take over the world and use the inferior races (everyone else) as disposable test subjects.

…. so much for evil priory theory, we’ve moved on to evil inquest and evil caithe it seems lol…

Nilkemia.8507:

It can be killed, it just gets back up

Hence nigh immortal.

If it’s getting back up, it’s not being killed – not truly.

Nilkemia.8507:

until the whole party is together, after which it just vanishes. And, the bioluminescent ones were not present and thus irrelevant.

They are in the same location, the Lurcher might disappear mechanically but that doesn’t mean it’s gone for good.

So I’m going to disagree with your assessment.

Nilkemia.8507:

Unless they fixed that bug(?) where she just stands at the entrance to the room while the others attack the boss, no she does not help you.

They can all bug. Not just Caithe. And it’s kind of an RNG thing which happens only if you die during the fight and have to run back (due to the whole ‘npcs follow you around’ mechanic).

Nilkemia.8507:

I’d like to think the others wouldn’t just stand there and let them try to kill each other (except maybe Zojja), considering it wasn’t until Citadel of Flame that the two finally tried to do it, before we break that up.

Twilight Arbor she brings Logan and Rytlock – alone – together again. After seeing exactly what hostility they had in LA.

So, still going to argue she put no one at risk and was thinking differently than ‘acting before thinking’ and ‘not considering others’ emotions and perspectives’?

It’s not the exact same thing, but both situations are brought by the same personality quirks.

Nilkemia.8507:

Prior to catching up with her proper, only 2 or 3 NPCs in the story spotted her at all (one named Pact NPC, a native hylek scout, and and maybe a third NPC in Auric Basin, uncertain).

Intentional exageration. And yes, an NPC in Auric Basin does see Caithe wander by.

But somehow these same scouts don’t see a big kitten charr with a flaming sword not trying to be secretive.

But as I said, this is Caithe’s only incompetance, which is bad writing just like her explanation.

Nilkemia.8507:

The only thing that should’ve given her any shock was Faolain turning out to be a Vinetooth. She already knows Faolain is evil and not to be trusted, which should’ve made her more on guard right way, even if she didn’t consider that Faolain could’ve been turned by then. Yet she arguably ends up explaining more to Mordrem!Faolain than she ever did to us, until near the end.

The love of your life, bitter rival that sometimes aid you, which you still wish to be with despite knowing they’re not a good person and trying to see the good in that person anyways, turns into a horrid abomination serving your most ultimately hated foe.

You really think she wouldn’t be shocked? And when she’s explaining, she didn’t see that Faolain had been turned into a mordrem.

Nilkemia.8507:

And then we end up accomplishing her task anyways, despite her head start. She was rash, incompetent, and useless.

Her incompetence and uselessness – questionable for the degree you proclaim – is purely mechanical and bad writing. It has nothing to do with her being a traitor or liar either. She is rash, yes. But she’s been rash since day 1!

Nilkemia.8507:

Also, as you pointed out, Faolaintooth immediately gave chase on us, and thus wasn’t threatening the others. But if she was, we knew they at least stood a chance since we had fought and killed a Vinetooth prior to this. (general NPC incompetence notwithstanding)

Faolain wasn’t exactly the same as a Vinetooth though, and it was pretty clear from the beginning. Vinetooths aren’t very smart by the looks of it – they’re just stalky predators. Faolain had obviously all the knowledge of her old self, and intelligence too, while the physical strength and prowess of a Vinetooth.

We immediately treat her for what she is: Mordremoth’s greatest champion.

Nilkemia.8507:

When Caithe ditched us the second time, it was to the Shadow of the Dragon, a creature we had only fought off previously with the Pale Tree’s help (which left her near death), and she certainly didn’t know about the Divine Fire or that it could harm the dragon champion. Thus, she left us to a fight that for all she knew, we might not win.

We fought the Shadow of the Dragon 1 on 1 before, and won.

The second time, it was Shadow versus 6 of us.

She knew we could at least keep it occupied and force it to retreat – we did it before with fewer forces.

Nilkemia.8507:

And finally, our character did try to return to find our team once the egg was secured and check up on them to make sure they were okay. Caithe did no such thing, even after we accomplished her mission for her.

Because Caithe didn’t have the egg in Tarir. We didn’t check up with the team again until the egg is in Tarir.

Unfair comparison.

bearshaman.3421:

…. so much for evil priory theory, we’ve moved on to evil inquest and evil caithe it seems lol…

It’s all in good fun
(and it’s more of a misunderstood inquest really)

You’re right on the spot, Dantert, by saying the Durmand Priory is evil. Unfortunately 2 of my characters joined the priory before finding out about the Abaddon statue during a LS event. I wish I could go back and change orders for those characters.
Because ANET chose to use a Biblical figure, let’s turn to the real life Word of authority, which is the Word of God on this subject. I’ll let the reader turn to Revelation 9:11.

Emiko, you are arguing with the translation of a translation. The original hebrew makes it very ambiguous whether Abaddon is a demon or a servant of God. Judiging by the Old Testament, he is just the keeper of the underworld. Nothing inherently wrong with that.
His association with locusts first appears in the greek New Testament, in the latin translation he is called the destroyer. So you can call it a case of adaptional villainy.

Either way Arena Net just burrowed the name, which is very common in fiction nowadays. In that light it doesn’t matter that much what the original character stood for, it’s all about their version. Which was evil, but also associated with hidden knowledge and therefor a good represantation for the hidden archive.

actually it is not ambiguous, every Christian know who the destroyer is and that’s Satan.
(Which is what Ababadon means in the Hebrew. In Greek its Apollyon.

Isn’t satan translated in as “The Adversary” though? That would make abaddon a completely different demon.

Well Abaddon and Satan are not the same. It’s made pretty clear that Abaddon is the keeper of the underworld, while Satan is “The Adversary” as Finalfreefall correctly pointed out, so he is the tester of men, he has nothing to do with the underworld. Satan actually appears as a servant of God in the Old Testament, so here it isn’t even ambigous, Satan is an angel not a demon.

I mean you can go ahead and argue with non-canonical scriptures that greek, roman and other scholars wrote much later, if you want. I know the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Abaddon is actually Jesus, because he throws the devil back into hell.

Point is, christian mythology is confusing because there are so many different branches (Nestorians = Bestorians!*) and pretty much all of them depict the same characters completely different. But if we go strictly by the Bible, so Old and New Testament, than we can’t say for certain that Abaddon is evil or a demon. All we know is he does what God told him to and he has a key to the underworld. Doesn’t sound that demonic to me.

*Just a joke, I actually don’t care

True Christianity is not a myth, neither is it a religion. All true believers know this inwardly from the witness of the Holy Spirit residing in them as well as God’s Word. I will stop my responding on this point, but before I do, please note some words of Jesus:

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:” John 27:10

you mean Yehuda!

i never saw the goddess/god names having realworld meanings inside guildwars lore
(then you will have to explain what dose dwayna means !)

I highly doubt that BuddhaKeks is claiming that Christianity is a myth, Emiko. I would say that most people are smart enough not to broach critique of religious views on these forums (at least not RL religious beliefs). I think he is merely using he term mythology to classify Christian lore on angels and demons, something which I as a Christian do not take any offense to. Anyways, probably best if the conversation gets back to In game lore and not RL lore. Because honestly they don’t mesh.

Narcemus.1348:

I highly doubt that BuddhaKeks is claiming that Christianity is a myth, Emiko. I would say that most people are smart enough not to broach critique of religious views on these forums (at least not RL religious beliefs). I think he is merely using he term mythology to classify Christian lore on angels and demons, something which I as a Christian do not take any offense to. Anyways, probably best if the conversation gets back to In game lore and not RL lore. Because honestly they don’t mesh.

Pretty much. I was just trying to say that I don’t know which particular branch of Christianity Emiko follows, so I proposed sticking with the common denominator, which is the Bible. I admit I wasn’t taking into account that the word mythology could be interpreted as me equating a religion to “bed-time stories” or some such. I actually hoped I was fairly neutral in my approach, as my own personal feelings on religion have nothing to do with the discussion.
So apologies if I offended anyone. I however agree that we should come back to the lore of the game.

On the conversation of an evil Priory, I could honestly see the possibility of an Evil Priory arising, or already existing within the ranks, but to call the Priory itself evil is ridiculous. They are far too goody-two-shoey to be that way, especially having a priory character main. The existence of he Abaddon statue does seem strange, but at the same time it makes sense. They are historians, and they protect historical objects, whether they be of good or bad things, plus it’s at the entry of a secret area, thus it makes even more sense being the God of Secrets.

well, they could spend time using the evil priory to tear the last bits of the pact apart, since most ppl liked the orders and that’s easier than finding new leader – Give us new shiverpeak caves or the sliver between sparkfly and lornar (? maybe timberline but you know the one) for the story about why they turned/how to save them.

Deleena.3406:

you mean Yehuda!

i never saw the goddess/god names having realworld meanings inside guildwars lore
(then you will have to explain what dose dwayna means !)

Dwayna is clearly the female version of Dwayne. :P Just like Grenth is an anagram for The RNG!

More seriously though, about half the god names have a relation to rl myths, legends, and religious documents – Balthazar being a name of one of the three wise men, Lyssa being a Greek goddess (or was it demigoddess) of madness and insanity, obviously Abaddon.

The other half appear to be fully made up – Dhuum is obviously a play on doom, but beyond that they seem uniquely thought up (though perhaps Zintl holds some Aztec ties?).

I think one could write essays on the influence of different mythologies on fantasy setting. I guess somebody already has. That reminds me of my shameless self promotion, I’m going to start a mythology based podcast soon (and by that I mean some time this year), that among other things also deal with such influences. It will be in my native language though… well I guess you can check it out if you want to learn german, I will make an effort to speak rather slow and clear. Maybe I will upload it as video with subtitles, the details aren’t set in stone yet.

Sounds like a good excuse to continue my learning of the German language.

Yes, I need an excuse for I am lazy. :P

Having an excuse actually makes learning a language a lot easier, from what I’ve heard. If it’s purely an academic activity, it’s lost quickly, but if you’re actually using it…

One thing that I think people are missing when they dismiss Caithe’s explanation that it was her Wyld Hunt is that the Dream is prophetic, and issues Wyld Hunts appropriately. Because of this, it’s fair to judge the appropriateness of the Wyld Hunt – and therefore Caithe following her Wyld Hunt – with the benefit of hindsight.

And with the benefit of hindsight… it’s probably reasonable to say that things worked out about as well as they were likely to. There was a big disaster and loss of life, but the egg was withheld from Mordremoth, and in the end, thanks to a strong-willed sylvari being plugged into Mordremoth intimately enough to serve as a bridge between the Dream and Mordremoth’s mind, Mordremoth was killed pretty soon after he arose. Theoretically, the Dream could have stopped the launch of the fleet (by sending Trahearne a contradictory Wyld Hunt), but while the loss of the fleet caused a great loss of life, it also meant that Pact survivors were distributed across the jungle in locations that turned out to be strategically important, including the sacrifice of Trahearne so Mordremoth’s mind could be killed (without that, it would probably have taken a lot longer for someone to figure out a way to permanently kill Mordremoth if at all, during which there might have been more damage done than the loss of the Pact fleet).

Conversely, what would have happened if Caithe hadn’t stolen the egg? The Pact Commander would likely have been on the same airship as Logan, Zojja, Eir and Trahearne when it was taken down, possibly with the egg. That… would not have been good.

The Dream appears to have given contradictory instructions regarding the egg – it told the Pale Tree that the egg was our responsibility, while telling Caithe that it is hers. So I think it’s reasonable, in judging the reason for the Wyld Hunt and therefore whether Caithe was right to follow it, to consider what the result of those contradictory instructions was… and that result was that the Pact Commander wasn’t on the fleet when it went down, and thus was in a position to launch a rescue mission and counterattack that ultimately resulted in Mordremoth’s destruction. Caithe’s true mission, then, was likely simply ‘keep the Pact Commander away from the fleet’.

It certainly was set up by ArenaNet in a way that made it look like Caithe could be a traitor – but from her perspective, she was carrying out a special mission for which she believed secrecy was important (it’s possible that the Dream actually wanted the Pact Commander to have that seed of distrust for Caithe at that point, to make sure the PC actually goes after her rather than shrugging and assuming she knows what she’s doing, which might have happened if Caithe had said “I know where the egg needs to go, leave it to me.”) As it turned out, however, she was the one willing to sacrifice the most to kill Mordremoth – she was the one who came to the conclusion that killing Mordremoth might result in the end of sylvari as well, and she was willing to make that sacrifice for the rest of Tyria.

With regards to the statue of Abaddon… given the inscription nearby (“Beware the danger of secrets kept”), I think the statue is intended to serve as a warning rather than being there to be venerated. It serves a similar purpose to the gargoyle on medieval cathedrals (apart from acting as a waterspout, of course).

I don’t know…. pretty sure more than half the Priory scholars we’ve talked to would be okay with using the stature as a waterspout, just to see what would happen.

I was tempted to say earlier: “How do we know it doesn’t work as a waterspout too? He was the god of water!”

But regarding the egg and Dream… Did we ever get told that it was the Dream who told the Pale Tree to take care of the egg?

Because it’s undercover… You could still make it into a decorative fountain, but that would be quite different to the water-redirection purpose of gargoyles. :P

Regarding the Pale Tree: Not explicitly, I don’t think, but the message she gave us was in the form of a vision, and the Pale Tree’s prophetic abilities are linked to the Dream. Furthermore, there’s no evidence that anybody else (certainly not the Zephyrites or the Exalted) knew that the PC was supposed to be the egg’s champion, but when the Pale Tree is informed that Caithe has it, she’s pretty adamant that it’s the PC’s responsibility. The only other possibility, apart from some other party that we don’t know of, is that the egg itself sent the vision to the Pale Tree.

Well yes, now it’s underwater… but what if it wasn’t!

Or what if they had an aqueduct running through the library!?

You never know! The statue was originally meant for the Cathedral of Hidden Depths. I’m sure there was some waterworks going there somewhere, before it was sunk.

More seriously:

Furthermore, there’s no evidence that anybody else (certainly not the Zephyrites or the Exalted) knew that the PC was supposed to be the egg’s champion,

That’s untrue:

Player character: I need information about how to deal with Mordremoth.
Ogden Stonehealer: Actually, I think you need information about the meaning of your vision from the Pale Tree.
Player character: What? How did you—
Ogden Stonehealer: There are those who have taken interest. I had some warning that you might be calling. Your challenges do not go unnoticed.
Player character: Who?
Ogden Stonehealer: All in good time. But know that they have Tyria’s best interests at heart. Now, this is what you’re looking for. This artifact. Go on, examine it closely.

Which leads me to believe ‘some other party that we don’t know of’ rather than the Dream or the egg.

To me, that basically indicates that somebody knew that the Pale Tree had given the PC a vision that involved (or likely involved) the egg, not necessarily that they knew that the PC was intended to be the champion. Ogden’s sources could simply have overheard the PC’s conversation with the iconics and relayed it to Ogden, with Ogden realising that the golden location was Tarir and putting the rest together himself.

It’s possible that “those who have taken interest” did know the PC was intended to be the bearer. However, if so, they can’t be the Exalted (if they were even awake at the time, Ruka’s dialogue indicates that they didn’t even know there was an egg in play) or the Zephyrites (both the Master of Peace and the lesser Masters basically treat the PC simply as an ally who can do things they cannot). That pretty much leaves some other party that has yet to be seen in Guild Wars 2.

Even then, though, TWHTI may not have sent the vision – as I said, all prior indication is that the Pale Tree’s prophetic abilities come through the Dream. Even if they did, the easiest way to send a vision to the Pale Tree is probably through the Dream (if they were able to send visions through a non-Dream means, why use the Pale Tree as a middleman, er, tree, rather than sending it direct to the PC?)

Ruka’s dialogue definitely indicates they knew an egg was in play, they just didn’t know when they’d get it – or if it survived.

Ruka expresses surprise (about as much as Exalted seem capable of doing…) when the egg is mentioned. His response to nonsylvari PCs doesn’t indicate that he thinks they’re anything more than a potential ally until the moment the egg empowers them. It’s clear that the Exalted knew that the plan was for an egg to arrive at some stage, but Ruka doesn’t know that the egg is on the move until the PC mentions it.

To sylvari he shows a restrained hostility, with the restraint probably because he’s already realised that the PC is behaving strangely for a Mordrem Guard and because, as the Exalted are creations of the Forgotten, he probably knows that cleansing procedures exist. If the Exalted had been in communication with the Pale Tree, then Ruka would presumably have a) known what sylvari are, and b) would have known that the PC was the one destined to bring the egg to Tarir. His behaviour, however, suggests that he doesn’t know the PC from a bar of soap.

All that indicates, to me, that the Exalted had not been in communication with the Pale Tree, and in fact probably had no knowledge of her.

Ruka the Wanderer: Good. As for my mission, I’m tracking an…object. These devices respond to Glint’s legacy, which means—
<Character name>: Caithe and the egg, it must be!
Ruka the Wanderer: Did you say egg? After all these years. I must go…quickly.
Ruka the Wanderer: I might need help. You may accompany me, if you wish.

He explicitly mentions that he’s tracking an object – and shows hesitation to reveal it. Given the tone, I would say it’s not because he doesn’t know what the object is, but hesitates for the same reason the PC tells the biconics not to mention to anyone about the egg’s existence in S2.

So his surprise doesn’t seem to be the egg’s existence, but that the PC knew of it, and confirmation that what he was tracking was indeed the egg.

I never said (nor implied) the Exalted had been in communication with the Pale Tree – after all, they were hibernating for the past 150-200 years.

His tone switches to one of surprise and excitement (as much as that can be conveyed through the Exalted voice, of course) when the egg is mentioned. We know that there are other objects in Glint’s legacy, and the impression I had was that the pylons could have responded to any of them. The egg is probably the most important piece, but I don’t think Ruka knew anything further than that there was something connected to Glint out there.

Exclaiming surprise and excitement is exactly what I was saying. As said, it came off to me that Ruka was surprised to hear the PC knew of the egg, rather than the egg itself showing, and the excitement being from confirmation that what he felt was the egg.

A Study in Gold explicitly mentions that the Zephyrites will bring Glint’s egg to the Exalted, and as far as I know there is no other “object of Glint’s legacy” ever mentioned or implied – the only other object we know of is the hourglass, and that doesn’t seem like it needs all of Tarir to protect it.

So I find it hard to believe that Ruka would be expecting the possibility of some other ‘object related to Glint’s legacy’.

A Study in Gold also states that “Glint’s legacy is far more than just her offspring, and you must protect it all. The legacy’s potential will only be realized in the fullness of time when all its pieces have developed and become defined in response to the world around them.”

Now, arguably this could mean the result of her political manipulations rather than artifacts, but I think there are mentions of other artifacts elsewhere. Certainly, A Study In Gold indicates that the egg is probably the most important piece, but not the whole of Glint’s legacy.