Trying to find Citations for Lore
Points 1, 2, and 3 are from the official timelines, packaged in the GW1 manuals (still accessible here) and the GW2 novels. Point 5 is only from the Orrian History Scrolls- some GW2 lore has, unfortunately, gotten mixed into the GW1 wiki. Point 6 is from a variety of dev interviews- I know GuildMag had one of them, but alas, the site seems to be down just now.
Point 4 is… complicated, and never phrased exactly that way. It’s derived from two lines, one in the novel Edge of Destiny from Glint herself- “Three thousand years ago, I was set here as a guardian of the world.”(pg. 338)- and one in-game from Eir, presumably refrencing the first one- “She had the gift of prophecy and the burden of three thousand years of memories.” Combine that with some debunked GW1 lore that Glint was “the first of all creatures on Tyria, created by the gods to be the caretaker” and you get that wiki claim.
How accurate any of that is boils down to how reliable you consider the source to be. Point 6 is straight from the devs, so it’s considered canon until something in-game proves it otherwise. Point 5 is an in-game source, and as accurate as whichever Orrian wrote- we consider it canon for now, since nothing contradicts it, but that might change when more information comes to light. Points 1, 2, and 3 are in a bit of a weird place, since the timelines have some third-person omniscience going on and aren’t, as far as we know, in-universe documents. I tend to consider them as dev statements, but your assessment may vary. Point 4 is a tangled mess of contradictory claims, some of which have been disproved. Almost all of the relevant GW1 lore has been shown to be false. Glint’s own testimony has proven to be misleading, or at the very least, incomplete, and Eir’s own statement could only have been pulled from Glint or the GW1 human legends. We don’t have any specific evidence against the 3000 year figure, but we have plenty of reason to doubt it, and at this point it seems unlikely the Gods actually had anything to do with Glint at the start.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
(edited by Aaron Ansari.1604)
Ah, the Manuscripts, of course. I haven’t read them, but I should definitely give them a look! Thanks for that!
1 and 3, no real reason to doubt those being accurate.
2 must be false, given that the Forgotten were around for the last dragonrise. This shows that the stated timelines aren’t flawless. Likely, they are ‘in-universe’ documents, even if we don’t have them mentioned specifically in a game or book.
I recently saw some comments Konig made that interviews are also prone to being overridden with new lore. Still, they at least hold value as being the writer’s intent, at least at some point in time. Perhaps those lore interviews should be preserved on the wiki, whether a transcript or an archived link.
Anyway, 5 and 6 could very well just be human perceptions, or important points are missing.
Ahha! The Ghostly Hero has some text about Glint being created by the Gods. Clearly, he is mistaken on that one.
Alright, then I suppose this is good enough to begin the theory. Let me know if there are any refinements that can be made, or if it’s utter garbage. (Also let me know if I’m being very disjointed. I am not writing this particularly quickly)
The Human Gods communicated with Glint and then the Forgotten, getting them on board with preparing Continental Tyria for Humanity. This ‘alliance’ could easily become ‘the Gods created them’ through human history. Sometime after this, humanity begins to appear on Cantha. Maybe they were migrating from somewhere further south, but the Gods were with them at the time.
Lots of stuff goes on in early Canthan history, and at some point, the Gods take a portion of humanity, through the Mists, and set foot in Orr. Thus, they are brought to (Continental) Tyria through the Mists, and Dwayna first sets foot in Arah, in accordance with the Orrian Scrolls.
With this theory, Glint being a caretaker set by the Gods basically fits, as well as the Forgotten being “summoned” because Glint could not do it alone. Them preparing the way for humanity kind of goes along with them ‘creating’ the world, as well.
Can you see any glaring weaknesses?
On timelines: the problem with treating it as a in-universe document is the Giganticus Lupicus bit. That originally appeared at a time when all lore pointed to the Gods creating Tyria, and to the Forgotten being the first civilization. You could argue that it simply took the gods upwards of eight thousand years to create the world, and that entire species came to be and went extinct in that time, but I’m still dubious about calling it in-universe when every other such history at the time didn’t go past 1769 BE.
And speaking of the Forgotten- it’s not that black-and-white, alas, given that as recently as Season 2 we’re seeing them dated to 1769, and said to have come from the Mists. It’s one of the reasons that Konig thinks that Durmand Priory has the date of the last dragonrise wrong, but I’ll let him elaborate if he shows up.
On interviews- it’s an exaggeration to say that they’re prone to being overridden. It’s only happened a couple of times. The frustration you might have picked up on is because it can be overridden, that the ‘new’ writers don’t have to honor what the ‘old’ writers established. Prickly issue, but I think that’s all the more reason to avoid hyperbole.
I mostly agree with 5 and 6, with the caveat that the devs have told us, point blank, that humans don’t come from Tyria. We’re definitely missing points there.
On the theory- I think that’s pretty sound, as far as guesswork goes, and I suspect many on these forums would be inclined to agree. I’d even point out that you might not need to go through the mental gymnastics where the spread of early humans are concerned. The date we have (205 BE) is for humans arriving on Tyria-the-continent, but with the way the Orrian Peninsula links up to the landmass, and especially given that the Crystal Desert was then the Crystal Sea, it’s arguably not part of Tyria. In fact, it’s occasionally even called a continent in its own right by NPCs. Thus, it is possible (although the likelihood is up to your judgement) that humans were in Orr long before Ascalon or Kryta, or even Cantha, thus reconciling the two different origin stories we’ve been presented.
Just a thought. Feel free to point out any weaknesses yourself.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
My gut feeling is that the 1769BE figure is actually when the gods arrived. Human legends credit the gods with creating the world, so they instead associate this date with other things related to the gods, such as the arrival of the Forgotten and the gods coming to an accord with Glint.
It’s worth noting, though, that the Forgotten being around for the last dragonrise doesn’t necessarily mean they couldn’t have left and then returned: it’s just that unlike the mursaat, they didn’t leave mid-fight. My suspicion is that after the devastation left by the dragons, the Forgotten departed into the Mists looking for something that could restore Tyria, and found the Six Gods. Allowing humans to settle on Tyria was the price for the assistance of the gods in revitalising Tyria.
To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.
I wouldn’t be so fast to dismissed the 1769 for Forgotten being false. Glint is – repeatedly – giving and given 3,000 years for her age – both in GW1 and GW2. That would be around 1769 BE. We also have “over 2,000 years ago” for the age of dwarven civilization. And we have modern experts on Forgotten lore, namely Warden Illyra, [restating that they came from the Mists.](https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/The_Forgotten_Not_Forgotten)
With the 10,000 years thing being the last dragonrise, rather than “a previous” dragonrise, we’ve only had Priory proclamations and a jotun telescope the accuracy of which is proclaimed right by a Priory scholar but no direct evidence for us to be really certain (well, actually, she says 10,000 years ago – so 8,775 BE if precise, 9,000 rounded to the nearest thousand years), and just recently the mursaat tablets.
Basically, ArenaNet is inconsistent in whether they make the events of the last dragonrise being 10,000 years ago or 3,000 years ago.
Also, on #2 in the OP: That’s when humanity sailed to Tyria and Elona. They were on the world for at least 300 years earlier (landing on Cantha then) and could have been around even longer elsewhere (likely the “Sunrise Crest” on the latest world map). The Orrian History Scrolls do say that they arrived on the world at Orr, but it could be 1) Orrian propaganda (aka what I call the massive ‘wrongness’ of The History of Tyria aka Prophecies manual aka the lore reason for it being retconed) or 2) that humans were brought to the world at Orr, then teleported to the last man, woman, and child to another land where they developed and sailed – possibly under the guise of a god or gods – back to Orr.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
I liked the 3000-ish years ago dragonrise date, as the 10k date seemed to mostly be speculation. Then, the mursaat tablets went and claimed it was 10k as well.
What was the source for sailing to Orr and Elona? It makes sense, but I did not find that reference anywhere yet.
I have another issue. Based on the mursaat tablets, I’d assume that they were written before the mursaat were largely wiped out by the titans. However, they are scattered around a fortress on an island that didn’t exist in GW1. That point seems to be confirmed by the recent Guild Chat. So how was a new mursaat fortress built on a new volcanic island by a nearly eradicated race, and why did they bring old library books with them?
What was the source for sailing to Orr and Elona? It makes sense, but I did not find that reference anywhere yet.
No direct statement, but:
- We are told that humans arrived in the world via portal at Orr, per the Orrian History Scrolls.
- We know that humanity’s “homeland” on the world was somewhere “south of Elona or Cantha” per Jeff Grubb interview with Kill Ten Rats. Though I’m willing to bet this got changed and is the Sunrise Crest based on the Durmand Priory’s world map.
- We know that humans sailed to Cantha 300 years before they (re)arrived on Tyria and Elona; Luxon legends put their homeland across the ocean. Both per An Empire Divided.
- We know that when humans arrived on Elona, they did so at Istan and southern Kourna – the shoreline, and closest to the Battle Isles (which the Durmand Priory world map has linked to Sunrise Crets). Per Nightfall timeline in manual.
- And we know that when humans (re)arrived on Tyria, they did so at Orr, before moving to Kryta and Ascalon – again, at the lands closest to the Battle Isles.
I have another issue. Based on the mursaat tablets, I’d assume that they were written before the mursaat were largely wiped out by the titans. However, they are scattered around a fortress on an island that didn’t exist in GW1. That point seems to be confirmed by the recent Guild Chat. So how was a new mursaat fortress built on a new volcanic island by a nearly eradicated race, and why did they bring old library books with them?
Honestly, I’m gonna label this as “devs never bothered thinking about it and the designers were not in loop with each other about the island being new or not”.
However, I’ll give them a bail for their sinking ship if this is the case:
Volcanic islands, especially still active ones, are notoriously unstable. Islands can form and crumble over the years, and reform again. It’s also possible for them to shift if they’re at big teutonic plate movements, which the Ring of Fire could easily be at. So it’s plausible that we’re looking at part of an old volcano shifted southward with edges crumbled and expanded.
Such a concept would actually be supported by the change in the world map (it was a bigger island that reached to Abaddon’s Mouth, now it isn’t) and the Fractured Caldera and Crumbling Path to the northwest.
What I’d like to know is why the ruins look nothing like the structures seen in GW1. They didn’t use natural stairs or walls back then.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
I’m down wits the islands changing shape a lot. Taking an entire fortress largely intact along, while leaving behind the volcano they were built around…. that’s a bit more of a stretch, but sure.
Here’s a stretch I just thought up: what if the mursaat fortress was constructed by Lazarus very recently, including the addition of the lore tablets? Cami’s journal does hint at her being ‘watched’. Perhaps it’s all a ruse to gain our sympathy? (it’s rather tin-foil-hat area, though)
Constructed in a state of ruin? The thing is those walls and stairs don’t seem under 250 years old to me. Though a volcanic climate could erode things faster than in gentler climes, I suppose. Even so, the only thing currently making that “fortress” defensible is the proliferation of jade constructs and the little towers. It’s more a steep hillside with climbable bits, the sort of thing that speaks of millenia to me, not mere centuries, given we are talking about solid stone construction.
I’m not implying it’s a good idea, but Lazarus is supposed to have an obscene amount of magic available. If his goal was to make it seem that an ancient fortress had been here all along, he could likely accomplish it.
Additional circumstantial evidence: Rhoban does not mention mursaat, and the last Dwarven device was locked inside a mursaat room.
Cami’s journal more felt like Lazarus was there for his own needs, and this may be why he knew to show up at Tarir – where Tarir was, what was there, why to be there at that moment, etc. – he saw the Commander and followed.
The location of the fourth journal is suspect, though, and makes no real sense.
As to the fortress moving mostly in tact, I disagree. Look at GW1 mursaat structures and you’ll find that they are much better looking. A lot more level, a lot more spikes along the walls, and a much smoother rather than rough surface. This fortress has seen plenty of wear and tear. Furthermore, the fortress in GW2 has a lot of naturally formed walls and stones, which were rare and non-existent respectively in GW1.
Seems more like someone’s been maintaining that fortress with the little materials available rather than it being in good condition. Maybe that’s part of the Jade Constructs’ duties.
Also, the only fortress in GW1 tied to a volcano was the one adjacent to Abaddon’s Mouth and the Chalice of Tears is no Abaddon’s Mouth. So I wouldn’t be so fast to say that it was built into the side of a volcano – maybe, initially, it was just a large hull/small mountain(aka dormant volcano) that became active.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)
as for the Guild Wars (one) Manuscripts…. please note the following excerpts from he very beginning (after the table of contents)
“The following texts have only recently been unearthed and reveal but the barest hint of what adventurers will encounter in Tyria.
Book I: The Lore of Guild Wars
contains a brief summary of Tyrian history, along with an overview of the human kingdoms and a few of humanity’s known enemies. These manuscripts tell the story of the origins of magic, of the Searing and the Cataclysm, and other key events that brought our world to the state in which you find it today.
Book II: The Challenge
introduces adventurers to the basics of life as a hero in Tyria. Here you’ll learn about the Guild Wars professions and their attributes and skills, and how they work together to create a unique gameplay experience for each hero you create.
These manuscripts are incomplete at best, but scribes are busy compiling additional information, which will be made available through other avenues. See the enclosed Quick Reference card for more information."
this is clearly written from two perspectives simultaneously: 1) scribes from within the universe itself, and 2) it is written by humans to other humans outside the universe itself. this was a common practice back in the day for video game manuals. “breaking the fourth wall” so to speak, is even used in movies like Deadpool.
however, its significance to this lore discussion is simply this: it is intended to be counted as in-game archeological research. it was unearthed by archeologists, and incomplete. since it is incomplete, some facts may appear later be found to be incorrect, due to the more complete manuscripts being unearth, and the original context finally found.
these manuscripts were never intended to be the omniscient third person perspective, but rather incomplete in-character perspective. So, anything in them has to be taken with a grain of salt. the archeologists who unearthed these manuscripts may have even tampered with them, or rewritten parts of them due to their incompleteness. whole words in the middle of sentences could have been unreadable. years in the timeline may have been smudged.
furthermore, since these manuscripts are written by humans, we can also speculate whether those humans were trustworthy or not. were they influenced by Abbaddon to change parts of the manuscripts, or to hide parts of it? after all Shiro Tagachi was influenced by Abbaddon, and he died 250 years before Prophecies campaign even started. Vizier Khilbron was also influenced by Abbaddon to cause the Cataclysm, in between the “noob island” pre-searing Ascalon and the start of the campaign proper. It could be argued that the inconsistencies in the GW1 manuscript lore (as compared to GW2 lore) can be attributed to Abbaddon’s corrupt influence. who know’s? maybe these manuscripts were found by Vizier Khilbron himself?
– The Baconnaire