Krall Bloodsword – Mesmer
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square
Was King Adelbern really a bad guy?
1 2
But forcing them to stay in Ascalon didn’t give them a fighting chance to live. There was no chance whatsoever that they would survive the Charr invasion forever. Fleeing to Kryta in search of aid (and potentially use their help to reclaim Ascalon) would be much more about giving people a fighting chance.
There’s no way of looking at this where Adelburn isn’t a bad guy. He could have encouraged his people to flee, he could have led them somewhere safer.
On that I agree, he never should have kept his people there to begin with and let it come to this. But unfortunately it did. I was talking about that particular moment, the moment where they were surrounded and about to die. But yes if I was in his shoes long before, I would have evacuated my people long ago.
Dear A-net: Please nerf rock. Paper is fine
~Sincerely, Scissors
~Sincerely, Scissors
Just out of curiosity, where in lore does it say he made them ( soldiers and civilians ) stay?
He basically banished anyone who decided to follow Rurik (who wanted to retreat and seek the aid of Kryta) and as such most people decided to not follow Rurik.
He did? As I remember it, he only banished Rurik. He certainly seems eager enough to have your character back in the epilogue instance and titan quests.
R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.
He did? As I remember it, he only banished Rurik. He certainly seems eager enough to have your character back in the epilogue instance and titan quests.
I seem to recall him banishing anyone who made the journey with Rurik, but then again it was quite some time ago that I played early Prophecies, so might remember incorrectly.
Krall Bloodsword – Mesmer
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square
Krall Peterson – Warrior
Piken Square
It didn’t really feel like he acknowledged the PCs in the titan quests, and the epilogue was written so much later it really felt disconnected to me.
Especially all the major figures suddenly showing up in Droknar’s Forge…
But officially he only banished Rurik.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
It didn’t really feel like he acknowledged the PCs in the titan quests, and the epilogue was written so much later it really felt disconnected to me.
Especially all the major figures suddenly showing up in Droknar’s Forge…
But officially he only banished Rurik.
If you talk to Adelbern during the little epilogue, he’ll ask you to come back to Ascalon to take care of the Charr ( or something along those lines ). Also mentions something about Rurik being proud of the PC’s. But for realz, Adelbern was totes a baddie and not a victim of being made that way so they can humanize the Charr for GW2.
I always thought that all the NPC’s being at the end of each campaign was more of a “party” if you will. A few days, or weeks after the events actually happen. Now for the end of Nightfall…ya’ got me.
(edited by Copestetic.5174)
As I said:
It didn’t really feel like he acknowledged the PCs in the titan quests, and the epilogue was written so much later it really felt disconnected to me.
I never said that Adelbern didn’t want the PC back, I said that the one and only time he said it was written so far away from the rest of the Prophecies storyline that it felt disconnected to the Prophecies storyline. It simply feels out of place for Adelbern (and to lesser extents, Salma and Barradin) to be at this celebration of the White Mantle’s false gods’ defeat.
And the epilogues were usually only the figures that were related to the end of the plot, though with EotN that happened to be just about everyone throughout the campaign since the entire campaign is about gathering allies to fight the big bad at the end (and yet Angel McCoy said that stories that’s mostly about building your forces don’t work for games! The irony!); Nightfall had very few individuals from throughout the campaign, as 90% of the figures in the epilogue were the heroes. Factions had very few folks who weren’t involved with the very end, but everyone was involved with the Affliction/Shiro plot. But Prophecies had about three different plots going at once, at the least, and yet we had folks completely unrelated to the end coming from their war-torn lands to celebrate something that they logically (and emotionally in Adelbern’s case) shouldn’t give a flying skritt about.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
I can see why Adelbern was present at the end. I figure Adelbern was there because while the Charr were still a threat, we got rid of the majority of the threat with the Titans. Of course, we had to go back and kill the remaining ones through those quests, but no doubt closing/keeping closed the Door of Komalie messed-up the Charr’s agenda for awhile before they found their new Gods.
Another reason, is whether or not you were a Prophecies-created character, ( though it makes more sense if you were ) I’m fairly certain the news of your accomplishments spread even to remote Ascalon, just as Ruriks death had. I think it’s reasonable to assume that he knew you would be a valuable asset to him, and thus the reason he went to see the PC; to ask for help now that the events in Prophecies had ended.
Emotionally is a little more difficult to break down. I mean, on one hand I always figured Adelbern knew about the PC’s, given the amount of time we spend with Rurik before and after the Searing. It’s kind of a stretch to assume that Rurik not once mentioned to his father about those who he’s been running around with killing Charr. Or who he was with when he brought down Vatlaaw. So to me, on an emotional level, he at least understood that we were Ruriks’ friend, and Charr killing buddy that turned out to be these super kitten heroes.
Barradin and Salma, nada here. I mean, we did meet Barradin in Pre-Searing, and brought put his daughter to rest with Althea’s Ashes quest, so maybe he felt he needed to show his support for that? Or maybe he was just there with Adelbern as an escort or something. No idea. Salma doesn’t make sense to me, because prior to WiK, I didn’t really know who she was.
Just my two cents from what I remember.
Then why did Ascalon win the war?
They didn’t. A single, out of game, source, about something else entirely, made mention of “recovering after the conflict”- which does not necessarily mean they won the war- and even if it was meant that way, in the game it was later shown that they most certainly weren’t winning. I get that you have some deep-seated issues with the direction GW2 went in, and I even sympathize to a certain point, but in this case it just doesn’t work. Even ignoring that you’re trying to hold one out-of-game line over numerous in-game indications, it wouldn’t make sense for Ascalon to win the war at that point- their food supplies had been reduced to whatever stores survived the Searing, the army would’ve taken heavy casualties in the same and been further reduced with Rurik’s schism, and as we later found out (although I’m sure you’ll argue that such ideas originated with the later teams) the charr still had plentifully fertile lands from which to feed and breed their forces. It was either a miracle or simply badly thought out that Adelbern managed to last for 20 years. Outright victory? Nothing short of Melandru and Balthazar’s direct intervention could’ve managed that.
“Out of game” in text only, Ermenred was an actual in-game npc. But you’re right it is a sole reference:
“Ascalon is recovering from the conflict with the Charr and is establishing new treaties with the Krytans and Elonians.”
Arguing that is how it was meant is my whole point…everyone knows that’s not how it was later expanded on. I’m simply pointing out that the later writers most likely didn’t honor the original writer’s intent. If that is true, then you can’t really use anything in Proph as a guideline for future Adelbern’s character…as Ascalon’s survival(and Adelbern’s initial persona) was simply dropped in favor of an alternate ending. As a continuation writer, picking and choosing which themes and plots you like and dropping the rest with little regard to original intent is not just bad practice, but dishonest.
After all, no one at ANet today came up with Prophecies’ narrative foundation…someone else did.
Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care
I troll because I care
(edited by Obsidian.1328)
“Out of game” in text only, Ermenred was an actual in-game npc. But you’re right it is a sole reference:
“Ascalon is recovering from the conflict with the Charr and is establishing new treaties with the Krytans and Elonians.”
Arguing that is how it was meant is my whole point…everyone knows that’s not how it was later expanded on. I’m simply pointing out that the later writers most likely didn’t honor the original writer’s intent. If that is true, then you can’t really use anything in Proph as a guideline for future Adelbern’s character…as Ascalon’s survival(and Adelbern’s quasi-monstrous character development) was simply dropped in favor of an alternate ending. As a continuation writer, picking and choosing which themes and plots you like and dropping the rest with little regard to original intent is not just bad practice, but dishonest.
After all, no one at ANet today came up with Prophecies’ narrative foundation…someone else did.
I would like to mention, AGAIN, that An Empire Divided is written in-universe perspective before Prophecies is completed.
So that’s the perspective, during the course of the Prophecies campaign.
Recovering != victory
And even during the plot of Prophecies, it was clear that Ascalon was not winning – they were recovering their losses. The beginning of Prophecies post-Searing in fact starts with this: the charr have been mostly silent on the northern front, allowing Ascalonians a chance to regroup, and is the entire premise of the very first post-Searing mission.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Though at the time of the writing of An Empire Divided, I don’t think Prophecies had finished, since lore indicates that the events on Shing Jea Island – which are mentioned in An Empire Divided – happened before the events of Prophecies came to a conclusion.
An Empire Divided is written in-universe perspective before Prophecies is completed… during the course of the Prophecies campaign.
According the the GW timeline, they both happened in the same year. The initial events on Shing Jea may have started before Proph, but they certainly didn’t end before it. The PC(you) from Proph enters the storyline in Kaineng City, along with Devona, Aidan, Eve, Cynn, and Mhenlo…who was specifically summoned by Togo to help:
“And there is something else. Something darker. My colleague Master Togo is troubled by reports of a strange plague afflicting the creatures of the Shing Jea countryside, a plague that causes freakish mutations and transforms most anything it touches into hideous, savage monsters. Should this so-called Affliction spread to humans the result could be catastrophic—not just for Cantha, but for the entire world. Soon I must depart for my home in Ascalon, but it is with a hopeful spirit that Master Togo has told me he expects help to arrive soon in the form of a young hero who was instrumental in dealing with the Flameseeker Prophecies. I wish Mhenlo and Togo the best of luck, but this new challenge is not one for the old. Perhaps someday I will return to Cantha, but for now, I must bid farewell to the Empire of the Dragon.”
~Ermenred, Empire Divided
Only the events on Shing Jea happened before the conclusion of Proph(happening simultaneously of it, probably post-Ascension). And that “starter” island is the Canthan equivalent of pre-Searing, so it makes sense both as a gameplay mechanic and chronologically to insert Proph characters into the Canthan storyline after that starter area is complete.
Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care
I troll because I care
(edited by Obsidian.1328)
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Letters_from_Togo
These are the letters Togo said he sent to Mhenlo at the end of Zen Daiju (second Shing Jea island mission). They are dated 23 and 25 Suzhen. Sezhen is the last month of the Season of the Scion.
The events of Shing Jea happened during the end of the Prophecies campaign.
My point, however, remains unchanged.
Recovering != victory
And even during the plot of Prophecies, it was clear that Ascalon was not winning – they were recovering their losses. The beginning of Prophecies post-Searing in fact starts with this: the charr have been mostly silent on the northern front, allowing Ascalonians a chance to regroup, and is the entire premise of the very first post-Searing mission.
The very beginning of Prophecies deals with Ascalon recovering from the war with the charr – recovering from the Searing – the first mission including wondering why the northern front has been so quiet. But it is no victory.
So again, recovering != victory
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Letters_from_Togo
These are the letters Togo said he sent to Mhenlo at the end of Zen Daiju (second Shing Jea island mission). They are dated 23 and 25 Suzhen. Sezhen is the last month of the Season of the Scion.
The events of Shing Jea happened during the end of the Prophecies campaign.
My point, however, remains unchanged.
Recovering != victory
And even during the plot of Prophecies, it was clear that Ascalon was not winning – they were recovering their losses. The beginning of Prophecies post-Searing in fact starts with this: the charr have been mostly silent on the northern front, allowing Ascalonians a chance to regroup, and is the entire premise of the very first post-Searing mission.
The very beginning of Prophecies deals with Ascalon recovering from the war with the charr – recovering from the Searing – the first mission including wondering why the northern front has been so quiet. But it is no victory.
So again, recovering != victory
Agree on your first point.
On your second, it is somewhat a matter of literary interpretation. I could just as easily say “recovering from the war =/= recovering from the Searing”, they are not mutually inclusive. Or, alternatively, a woman “recovering from a pregnancy” isn’t in the middle of it…the pregnancy is over. Depends on how you read it, but more importantly, how it was intended.
This is why you can look into what else is being said in the whole text to discern it. Seems incredibly silly that Ascalon is reopening treaties and trade routes, sending out historians, and, in particularly, sending their heroes abroad if Ermenred meant the war was still on when he used the term “recovering”.
Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care
I troll because I care
(edited by Obsidian.1328)
On your second, it is somewhat a matter of literary interpretation. I could just as easily say “recovering from the war =/= recovering from the Searing”, they are not mutually inclusive. Or, alternatively, a woman “recovering from a pregnancy” isn’t in the middle of it…the pregnancy is over. Depends on how you read it, but more importantly, how it was intended.
This is why you can look into what else is being said in the whole text to discern it. Seems incredibly silly that Ascalon is reopening treaties and trade routes, sending out historians, and, in particularly, sending their heroes abroad if Ermenred meant they were still fighting when he used the term “recovering”.
Except that a linguist would tell you that there is no mutual entailment between the terms and therefore if you choose to read it that way then you’re going against what is actually supported textually. From a ‘literary’ (I’m not quite sure literary means what you think it means) perspective, Konig is absolutely right.
…if you choose to read it that way then you’re going against what is actually supported textually.
And what, pray tell, in the entire text of Empire Divided doesn’t support my argument?
Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care
I troll because I care
…if you choose to read it that way then you’re going against what is actually supported textually.
And what, pray tell, in the entire text of Empire Divided doesn’t support my argument?
“At the time of this writing, the kingdom of Ascalon is recovering from the conflict with the Charr” recovering refers to returning to a normal state of health, it does not in any way imply that Ascalon had pushed back the Charr, had beaten the Charr, or anything of that like. It implies quite simply that they’re doing better than they were at the time of the Searing, which is not difficult. It’s also worth pointing out that the article is written by Loremaster Ermendred, who lived in Kryta during the events of Prophecies. If you’re recovering from a conflict then it doesn’t at all imply that you’ve solved the problem. It’s actually near synonymous to the idiom ‘to lick one’s wounds’ which means “to recover from a defeat or a rebuke.” We know that in the idiom’s case it is almost always in reference to the loser. Losers/victims can recover, it doesn’t mean they’ve made a massive comeback.
If you really want to argue it then sure I can’t say with absolutely certainty that the text disproves your argument, but it in no way supports it. What it does support is the idea that Ascalon is still a ruined kingdom, but is on the mend. It speaks from a specific point in history and everything that Prophecies set up was suggesting that this wasn’t something Ascalon was ever going to fully recover from, despite your insistence that it’s all because the writers changed and decided to take some radical new spin on the story.
Also, with the prospect of the mentality of “recovering refers to returning to a normal state of health” – Ascalon was always battling charr, pretty much nonstop in fact. This is why Ascalon is said to be a grim and militant nation in the Prophecies manual compared to the other nations.
So if Ascalon was returning to its normal state, then that means it was returning to a deadlock with the charr – from being pushed back by them.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.
…if you choose to read it that way then you’re going against what is actually supported textually.
And what, pray tell, in the entire text of Empire Divided doesn’t support my argument?
“At the time of this writing, the kingdom of Ascalon is recovering from the conflict with the Charr” recovering refers to returning to a normal state of health, it does not in any way imply that Ascalon had pushed back the Charr, had beaten the Charr, or anything of that like. It implies quite simply that they’re doing better than they were at the time of the Searing, which is not difficult. It’s also worth pointing out that the article is written by Loremaster Ermendred, who lived in Kryta during the events of Prophecies. If you’re recovering from a conflict then it doesn’t at all imply that you’ve solved the problem. It’s actually near synonymous to the idiom ‘to lick one’s wounds’ which means “to recover from a defeat or a rebuke.” We know that in the idiom’s case it is almost always in reference to the loser. Losers/victims can recover, it doesn’t mean they’ve made a massive comeback.
If you really want to argue it then sure I can’t say with absolutely certainty that the text disproves your argument, but it in no way supports it. What it does support is the idea that Ascalon is still a ruined kingdom, but is on the mend. It speaks from a specific point in history and everything that Prophecies set up was suggesting that this wasn’t something Ascalon was ever going to fully recover from, despite your insistence that it’s all because the writers changed and decided to take some radical new spin on the story.
Most of western Europe “recovered” from being roflstomped by Germany’s war machine in WWII, yet none of them lost the war. It all depends on the context. Which, in this case, supports the idea that the war was presumed to be over at the time Empire Divided’s writing. That’s not to say that all the Charr were routed. On the contrary, I’m sure they still had numbers up north. But the war itself was over. Ascalon wasn’t recovering from the Searing, they already did that. They were recovering from the whole conflict itself…i.e. the war.
As for your Ermenred quip, his appearance in LA is referenced to in the Factions Prima guide somewhere. He also had a funny April Fools Day occupation as well. ;-)
Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care
I troll because I care
(edited by Obsidian.1328)
Also, with the prospect of the mentality of “recovering refers to returning to a normal state of health” – Ascalon was always battling charr, pretty much nonstop in fact. This is why Ascalon is said to be a grim and militant nation in the Prophecies manual compared to the other nations.
So if Ascalon was returning to its normal state, then that means it was returning to a deadlock with the charr – from being pushed back by them.
Depends on where you determine “normal” to be. Before the Charr resurgence, all of the Ascalon Basin was peaceful. Even though northward expansion from the Wall didn’t start until relatively recently in Ascalon’s timeline, there were many, many long years of silence from the Charr. The Charr occupation of “the Northlands”(i.e. anything north of the Wall) happened immediately before the Searing. Before the year 1070, Drascir, Surmia, even Duke Gabon’s Estate were in relative peace.
So, from that point of view, Ascalon’s “normal state” is the entirety of the Ascalon Basin, and not a “deadlock” with the Charr along the wall…as you put it.
Obsidian Sky – SoR
I troll because I care
I troll because I care
I think there are distinct differences in the lore of how it all happened. That charr version (obviously) paints him as a crazy maniac, where if I remember correctly human history is a little more sympathetic. History is weird like that yo, we don’t really know because we’ll always have some biased views presented to us.
Personally I think he went loco.
ReRolled [Re] GvG Hero/Wannabe
Best NA rallybot on EU
Best NA rallybot on EU
I think there are distinct differences in the lore of how it all happened. That charr version (obviously) paints him as a crazy maniac, where if I remember correctly human history is a little more sympathetic. History is weird like that yo, we don’t really know because we’ll always have some biased views presented to us.
Personally I think he went loco.
Well we sort of have the advantage of having experienced part of that history first hand (anyone who played Prophecies anyway), so I certainly think we can say he went crazy with some sort of certainty xD.
While I agree with the idea that fighting the Charr in a near hopeless situation for decades would greatly affect the King’s personality. Then add in the death of his son, and the final siege could cause him to snap.
However, if you look at the real world example of a very similar situation. We have Constantine the XI and the fall of Constantinople to the Turks where he did not act much different, except he did not have a magical sword. He did not order any mass evacuations, and in fact actively persecuted deserters. Many of Constantine XI’s own advisors tried to get him to leave the city and rebuild his power in Morea (which was actually part of the Empire still). Constantine refused them and stayed to help lead the defense of his city. Even after the Turks broke into the city Constantine lead his soldiers on one more charge to theirs and his death.
1 2