Guild Wars 2

So it turns out Rytlock was avoiding his orders from the Black Citadel because they wish to know what he was doing in the Mists and how he got his power. Since this is Rytlock, he has a reason for not telling Imperator Smodur what’s going on. My theory is that the origin of the magic is something that the Charr would not accept the existence of, nor accept that Rytlock got it.

Meaning the possibility of him meeting the equivalent of a god, which the Charr despise. Next episode we’ll most likely head over to where Rytlock is in the Black Citadel and find out the truth at the end, a truth which would most likely change what we know about things, possibly even the past of Tyria itself.

Charr despise gods, but they do accept their existence. And while they consider all charr who worship a god to be Flame Legion, they wouldn’t deny any gifts they bestow (just look at Pyre’s opinion of the Searing in GW1, for example).

Rytlock not telling them is just Rytlock being Rytlock. I mean, look how often he dodges us without Rox – about not just the Mists thing, but Sohothin as well. Or how he dodges about his warband.

Rytlock is the #1 “no exposition” character in the entire series.

I have no idea what Rytlock is hiding, but I hope they resolve it soon, because it is getting annoying. How many ways can they find to make him say “I will explain it later”? Let’s find out on the next episode of DBZ… ehm LSS3!

RyuDragnier.9476:

So it turns out Rytlock was avoiding his orders from the Black Citadel because they wish to know what he was doing in the Mists and how he got his power. Since this is Rytlock, he has a reason for not telling Imperator Smodur what’s going on. My theory is that the origin of the magic is something that the Charr would not accept the existence of, nor accept that Rytlock got it.

Meaning the possibility of him meeting the equivalent of a god, which the Charr despise. Next episode we’ll most likely head over to where Rytlock is in the Black Citadel and find out the truth at the end, a truth which would most likely change what we know about things, possibly even the past of Tyria itself.

I don’t think it is just Rytlock being Rytlock. Remember he was suppose to cleanse the ghost, but never manage to do it? He went into the mist to retrieve the sword. Which might be the reason he even ended up with the sword. WE might get a All Rytlock episode about what he did in the mist.

A Rytlock-focused episode would be awesome, though at this point it’s hard to imagine how it’d tie in with the dragons we’re fighting.

What bugged me is that neither the two Adamant Guard grunts nor Smodur have any business ordering Rytlock around. He’s Blood, not Iron, and he’s not on Iron territory either so what gives?

Chadramar.8156:

A Rytlock-focused episode would be awesome, though at this point it’s hard to imagine how it’d tie in with the dragons we’re fighting.

What bugged me is that neither the two Adamant Guard grunts nor Smodur have any business ordering Rytlock around. He’s Blood, not Iron, and he’s not on Iron territory either so what gives?

The Charr follow a military hierarchy, and the Imperator is the 2nd highest ranking, only to the Khan-Ur, whose blood flows through the Imperators. Him getting an order from an Imperator is the equivalent of a US General of ANY military branch getting an order of the President of the United States (who is Commander-in-Chief of the military), meaning he cannot say no without repercussions.

I would disagree slightly since the charr are not a unified race. It would be more like refusing orders from a US ally that you are an emissary to. And if he is failing to do his job within the Iron Legion, it could well have been Brangar’s decision to revoke his title.

Yes, I just didn’t have the impression that the Legions are so entwined with each other that a higher-ranking member from one can boss the others around. There’s quite a bit of conflict under the surface, even if they’re technically supposed to be part of the same “nation”. It’s a comparatively minor complaint, really, but it’s not like using Blood Legion NPCs would have been some kind of resource drain since the models are already in the game.

I’ll be a little peeved if Rytlock gets kicked out, to be honest, just as I was extremely peeved when the writers kicked me out of the Pact. Cutting ties to the characters’ past willy-nilly instead of exploring them always annoys me.

Chadramar.8156:

I’ll be a little peeved if Rytlock gets kicked out, to be honest, just as I was extremely peeved when the writers kicked me out of the Pact. Cutting ties to the characters’ past willy-nilly instead of exploring them always annoys me.

The ties aren’t being cut, just the responsibilities. As the supposed second-in-command of the Pact, we would normally be responsible for most of the planning for Pact movements. Being that high up means we can’t really go onto the front lines and be the hero we all want to be. Us leaving the Pact is more a plot hole being filled after it got pointed out one too many times.

That said, it might be the same for Rytlock. As a tribune, he was expected to spend much of his time back in the Black Citadel, and while his rank gave him some luxuries to go around relatively unimpeded, he’s drawn too much attention to himself and hasn’t reported in for far too long. This is probably his comeuppance striking him squarely in the hindquarters. Plus, as some are speculating, this might be how we force some exposition out of Rytlock after being teased for far too long. Once he spills his guts and no longer has a high rank tying him to the Citadel, he’ll be free to join us on all sorts of adventures to kill the remaining dragons.

I wonder if this will set a sort of trend for the remaining Living World chapters. Eir is dead, sadly, so any secrets she had go to the grave with her; then again, Braham being her son, perhaps he will learn things about her after her entered the Mists. Caithe had a big info-dump on her past during Season 2, and those memory seeds mean we might learn more about her in the future. I have faith Logan and Zojja will return eventually (even if their VAs were too difficult to recruit most of the time :p), so we might have seasons dedicated to their back stories in the future.

Rognik.2579:

I have faith Logan and Zojja will return eventually (even if their VAs were too difficult to recruit most of the time :p), so we might have seasons dedicated to their back stories in the future.

Sadly, if Anet’s track record on tying up loose ends is anything to go by, there won’t be any resolution for them. They’ll be in the same boat as Malyck. :\

Logan and Zojja are major NPCs, not a side one like Malyck. They’ve just been stuffed in a closet and will be pulled out when the next dragon attacks.

Rognik.2579:

Logan and Zojja are major NPCs, not a side one like Malyck. They’ve just been stuffed in a closet and will be pulled out when the next dragon attacks.

You’re a lot more optimistic than I am. :V

TheOrlyFactor.8341:

Rognik.2579:

Logan and Zojja are major NPCs, not a side one like Malyck. They’ve just been stuffed in a closet and will be pulled out when the next dragon attacks.

You’re a lot more optimistic than I am. :V

I’ll rub it in your face when they come back in 5 years… :p

Rognik.2579:

TheOrlyFactor.8341:

Rognik.2579:

Logan and Zojja are major NPCs, not a side one like Malyck. They’ve just been stuffed in a closet and will be pulled out when the next dragon attacks.

You’re a lot more optimistic than I am. :V

I’ll rub it in your face when they come back in 5 years… :p

Please do. :P <3

i think rytlock met with glint while in the mists and is keeping secret something to do with either aureen or glints first child

I don’t think Smodur would be particularly vexed with Rytlock for disappearing, since he doesn’t seem to get angry at much of anything. While I don’t think they’ll be wary of him as a magic-user, I think they’ll be bothered by the fact hes wielding a completely new form of magic that hasn’t been seen before, considering Necromancers and Elementalists are commonplace in the legions, and nobody gives a skritt’s backside about them any more.

I think what they’ll be more wary of is the fact Glint is his main legend. Regardless of what public opinion is of Glint, she was still a dragon champion of Kralkatorrik, which is bound to rub more than a few Charr the wrong way. They could see him as some sort of emissary of the dragon or corrupted in some capacity.

Its been established that Rytlock has a strong dislike for his job as a Tribune because its largely an office job, but i’d be interested to see if he some kind of alternate agenda, considering hes willing to go Gladium for whatever cause hes ditching the legions for. Its quite obvious that he conversed with something or somebody in The Mists which is why hes acting the way he is. Im just hoping its not as obvious as the chestnut-theory of “Rytlock spoke with Glint and told him to enact her legacy.”

It’s more like he found out something bigger, or he can use a certain Legend from history he’s more than ashamed of…like say, a certain Flame Legion Shaman from GW1? Or maybe he sees the power to be similar to what the shamans can do, and he’s outright ashamed of it?

I don’t have a clue what he found in the Mists and like everyone else I am curious.

On the other hand, him getting reeled in by Iron Legion personel is just logical. You work in the Black Citadel, you report to the master of the House. Blood and Ash are guests in there. They have their own agenda obviously but there is one Imperator in charge and he’s decided that Rytlock has been remiss in his duties.

Back in WW2, Canadian, Australians, etc reported to British commanders because it was all nominally a British campaign. Same applies here.

Regarding the charr attitude to magic:

The allied legions have always continued to use magic, and magic-users aren’t suppressed per se, but they’re still a little distrusted compared to non-magic-users, as there’s a greater degree of suspicion that the magic-user might join the Flame Legion and/or be receiving magical power in exchange for taking orders from a non-charr being (such as a god or a titan). Charr distrust for magic isn’t something that’s slammed in our face ingame, but it is there (it’s just not generally enough to overcome charr practicality – but remember, they had an industrial revolution in the first place so they could reduce their reliance on magic).

In that context, I’ve considered for a while that revenant might actually be the most dangerous magical profession to have among the charr. Other professions using magic are still using the magical energy that can be drawn from the bloodstones (which don’t have their own agenda) and/or from the ambient magical energy of Tyria. So while magical energy of these types could be being granted by a higher being, someone being an elementalist or a necromancer or whatever does not mean their agency is compromised.

In the case of revenant, though… the power explicitly comes from echoes of legends in the Mists, which may well have their own agencies and agendas. From an outside perspective, revenant magic looks an awful lot like someone is invoking supernatural beings and receiving power from them… which is pretty much the biggest no-no in charr society. Rytlock can claim that he’s in control until he’s blue in the face (or whatever the charr equivalent is), but can the charr hierarchy really be sure that one of the voices in his head won’t someday push him to do something against charr interests? Particularly in the backdrop of what happened with sylvari?

I think there’s a bit of foreshadowing when Rytlock said in Plan of Attack “If it means I succeed at breaking the Foefire curse, I’d put on a robe and call myself Shaman Brimstone.” Short of assuming the title himself, that’s pretty much what he’s done – his new armour is in the fashion of an armoured robe, and from the perspective of a charr, accepting power from the legends could well mean he pretty much is a shaman.

Chadramar.8156:

Yes, I just didn’t have the impression that the Legions are so entwined with each other that a higher-ranking member from one can boss the others around. There’s quite a bit of conflict under the surface, even if they’re technically supposed to be part of the same “nation”. It’s a comparatively minor complaint, really, but it’s not like using Blood Legion NPCs would have been some kind of resource drain since the models are already in the game.

I’ll be a little peeved if Rytlock gets kicked out, to be honest, just as I was extremely peeved when the writers kicked me out of the Pact. Cutting ties to the characters’ past willy-nilly instead of exploring them always annoys me.

They’re actually more like allied nations than one nation, in fact…

However, a soldier operating in the area controlled by another legion is essentially considered to be on exchange to the legion whose territory they’ve been assigned to, and are therefore under that hierarchy. So, since Rytlock is assigned to Iron Legion territory, then he falls under Smodur in the hierarchy. Bangar Ruinbringer can presumably override Smodur’s orders, but possibly only if the override is combined with a recall to Blood Legion territory.

I wonder if Rytlock’s return to the Black Citadel will also address a lingering subplot from Season 2 about Rox and a certain mysterious charr calling himself Monti Scythescrape (if that’s truly his real name). In “Reunion with the Pact” we witnessed Rox and Monti (who shows up as a generic charr soldier and whose name only the charr PC learns after a bit of “persuasion”) talking and not being exactly on the best of terms. Interestingly both of them were quite tight-lipped about how they knew each other and what they were doing, and Rox only ever hinted at some spy stuff in “The Pact Assaulted” before quickly moving on to other topics. We catch Rox lying straight to our face a few times, actually.

Some relevant bits of dialogue from the story instances:

Soldier: Looks like your friend’s coming to rescue you.
Rox: Don’t you have somewhere to be? Move off.

PC: Who was that you were talking to?
Rox: Who? Oh, him? Just an old friend, someone I knew from my mining days.
PC: Did he know your old warband?
Rox: Some of them. We all worked the same mine.
[…]
PC: Would it be okay if I met him? A friend of yours is a friend of mine.
Rox: He’s not really anyone. I said "friend, but I meant “acquaintance.” Not worth your time.

PC: (if human) Just wanted to say hello. I’m a friend of Rox’s.
Soldier/Monti: Oh, you’re going to talk to me too. (sigh) I’ll only say this once. Even if I had a reason to talk to a stinking gladium like Rox, it wouldn’t be anyone else’s business. Especially not a human’s.
PC: Call her that again and I’ll put you in the ground.
Monti: Oh yeah? Your friend Rox is a f—

PC: (if charr) You’re not wearing order or legion gear. Name, rank, and warband, soldier.
Monti: I don’t report to you.
PC: (growl) You do now.
Monti: Sorry. Sorry. Scythe warband…soldier….Monti Scythescrape. I’m going. I don’t want any trouble.

PC: By the way, I spoke to that charr you were with earlier.
Rox: He’s not the brightest, I know. I doubt I’ll ever see him again. It was a fluke. Old acquaintances crossing paths. You know.
PC: If he gives you any trouble, you let me know, okay?
Rox: I will. You don’t have to worry about him. I can handle myself.

Rox: I don’t think I can go with you, Boss. I have to go back to the Citadel. I’m due for my annual weapons testing.
PC: (if charr) Annual weapons tests? You’re a free agent now. You don’t have to—
Rox: Did I say weapons tests? I meant I have to answer more questions about Rytlock’s disappearance.

PC: Where’ve you been lately?
Rox: Oh, um, charr business—you know. Now that I’m a free agent, I need to do tasks for the legion. Deliver a message here, spy on a… You know. The usual.
PC: Has there been any word from Rytlock?
Rox: Not that I’ve heard. I check with the Imperator’s office every time I return to the Citadel, but so far, no one’s seen or heard from him.

It’s been bugging me since I witnessed these dialogues in Season 2. Rox regularly checks with the Imperator’s aka Smodur’s office, likely to report about whoever she’s been spying on? Why would Smodur be using a gladium like Rox for a delicate mission like this instead of one of his trusted legionnaires or even Ash Legion’s brightest, and how does Monti figure into it all? Does this mean the target is someone Rox has easier access to and the target wouldn’t suspect Rox spying on them? Why does Rox need to lie about what she’s up to when talking to the PC whom she should trust to keep a secret at this point? What’s with all the secrecy, and what target would require such a hush-hush approach from her, anyway?

I really hope this subplot won’t be dropped. If there ever came a time to resolve it, it should come by the time we team up with Rox and get involved in Black Citadel politics. It would be the perfect setup not only for checking up with Rytlock but also encountering Monti again.

This mystery reminds me of another unresolved mystery which was about the weird Mysterious Stranger hobo dude we witnessed observing us from a ledge when we were chasing the Aspect Masters and what his significance might’ve been.

That mystery makes me believe that she is in fact a member of the Ash Legion stationed at Black Citadel, and her undercover work is the Imperator wanting to keep tabs on the Commander. Makes me believe that this season will truly test DW’s bonds, since apparently we don’t know everybody as well as we thought we did.

I would expect Blood and Iron to have their own spies too. Ash Legion wouldn’t (shouldn’t, logically) have a monopoly on them. It’d just be their trade. Just as Ash would have front line fighters and engineers, and all three have casters (even before Flame was exiled).

By now I distrust Rytlock more than the Player character distrust Caithe…

Love the conversations here. But alas I thought of another question. We need to remember that the God Abbadon was locked up and then defeated (nightfall) When he fell Kormir took his place and became the Goddess of Truth. Wouldn’t it be possible Kormir would be present in the Mists to award Rytlock for the truth. She may simply have been their as she wouldn’t technically know where the other Gods went. It would still keep Zaitan in check and the Sea Dragon as Abbadon would have been around when the powers were given out to the Elder Dragons. Meaning the Elder Dragons become Elders when they inherited the powers (portfolios) of the Gods that aided in their creation. But Kormir has never had that opportunity – Perhaps Aurene will get her powers?

Kormir isn’t in the Mists. No god is:
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Speaker_of_the_Dead

Priestess Rhie: Once, the Six Gods of the humans were very influential. As time passed, they pulled away—but they have not abandoned us.
PC: Where have they gone?
Priestess Rhie: No one knows. Not into the Mists, that’s for certain. Perhaps they simply want to allow us to decide our own fates.

Unless, of course, Rhie is wrong and they are in a part of the Mists unknown to humans of Tyria.

The Six Gods were still in communication when Kormir ascended. They likely would have told her where they were.

As I mentioned in the other thread, the Elder Dragons didn’t get their powers from the Six Gods. The Elder Dragons predate the Six Gods by several millennia on Tyria.

Rox could searching info about Braham father. Jora>Eir, Jora sister of Svanir, they call self sons of svanir so how valuable would be to have kid with woman that is desdendant of sister of svanir – Braham father can be son of svanir maybe high ranked one, maybe he hunted charr and leave it in bjora marches. Jora to redemempt her family name retake her homestead from charrs, wash with the blood, thus she can again use bear power. By hunting charrs and doing it he gained fame so Eir probably heard about him and he gained enough in her eyes as father for her child. Something like that. Charrs connect dots – power used against charrs, hunting for charrs – marked to death, Executioner Rox, previously miner and slave who was promised to gain freedrom is she success with her task.

Some of this was lost with the Season 1 info, but the story about Braham is still on the site. Braham’s father died shortly before Cragstead was attacked, which is part of why he travelled to Hoelbrak to meet with Eir. To our knowledge, he never had any ties to the Sons of Svanir, nor would Braham even consider a cult when he helped so much to kill another dragon. So whatever Braham is working out, it has nothing to do with the Svanir.

Also, I have no idea where you got the link of Eir to Jora. I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I don’t remember that trivia nugget. I’m going to play it safe and assume you’re wrong about this as well until I do some more research.

Man, bringing back this discussion reminds me just how brutal it is that the Living Story patches are now months apart. Now I really want to see the Tribunal of Rytlock Brimstone. (Rights to the name are formally waived. ArenaNet, if you want, please use this as one of the instance names.)

Best guess is that based on his time in the Mists, he was shown a vision that led him to decide to do what is best for Tyria, and what is best for Tyria will not be the total victory the Charr are hoping for in their ghost problems. And he was probably set on that path by the human gods, which would be taking a bad thing and making it worse (serving gods), and then making it worse again (serving human gods) from a Charr perspective. It isn’t going to go over well with TPTB, so he was avoiding having to talk about it for as long as possible.

Having payed the original GW I don’t remember ever coming across any reference of a linage between Jora and Eir. As a matter of fact their really isn’t a resemblance to them and Jora was a remarkable individual in her own right.

My theory: Smodur is scared Rytlock was gaining favor too fast, and now finds a powerful magic. Smodur gets him off the map. Either rytlock talks and Smodur seeks this magic as well, or he can throw rytlock in jail. Either way, no opponents in Black Citadel.

Chadramar.8156
A Rytlock-focused episode would be awesome, though at this point it’s hard to imagine how it’d tie in with the dragons we’re fighting.

His sword is fire. Primordus is…wait for it…fire.

Rytlock is the silent-type-not-telling-you-what-you-want trope as much as Taimi is the soft-4th-wall-calling-out-absurdities-players-also-notice trope, so he’ll keep hiding whatever he’s hiding until it’s absolutely necessary for the plot. Or even better (or worse huh), he won’t ever say anything and we’ll just find it out by ourselves to what he’ll just shrug and tell us that he “was going to talk about it sooner or later…”

DresdenAllblack.1249:

Chadramar.8156
A Rytlock-focused episode would be awesome, though at this point it’s hard to imagine how it’d tie in with the dragons we’re fighting.

His sword is fire. Primordus is…wait for it…fire.

His sword is fire because that sword was already fire back in Prophecies before anet even decided Elder Dragons were gonna be a thing. Primordus didn’t even exist on paper back then.
Magdaer and Sohothin

macon.4065:

Having payed the original GW I don’t remember ever coming across any reference of a linage between Jora and Eir. As a matter of fact their really isn’t a resemblance to them and Jora was a remarkable individual in her own right.

There is no link between Eir and Jora. In fact, Jora’s descendant in GW2 is outright known: Jhavi Jorasdottir

Though she doesn’t play a role in the game, there’s speculation that she – along with Laranthir, Almorra, Efut, and Rodrigo, were to be the main characters of the original third book titled Crucible of Eternity that got scrapped in favor of Sea of Sorrows.

The reasoning behind this theory is that they’re all the big wigs of the Vigil, Laranthir mentions Almorra having gone through a dark time that she was helped with by Laranthir and friends, and the five match the same set up from Ghosts of Ascalon’s main group (and Destiny’s Edge) – one individual per player race.

In addition to being a leader within the Vigil, her name is brought up by the Vigil recruiters in Hoelbrak making her to sound like someone of great importance beyond just being a descendant of Jora.

Either way, Jhavi seems to be someone favored by the spirits as well, given her dialogue. And interestingly, her name makes it seem like she’s Jora’s daughter, rather than generations inbetween (which wouldn’t be surprising given that norn are known to be able to live over a century and Jora was often called young in GW1, IIRC).

It is surprising, actually – I vaguely remember a typical norn age if they do reach a natural death being not too much over 120. Jora would need to have had a child close to the end of her life, and then Jhavi would also be close to the end of hers, for that to work.

It’s possible “Jorasdottir” has become a family name, or that Jora has become a common name in the family and Jhavi is both a descendent of the Jora we know, and the daughter of a more recent Jora.

What was said, iirc, was that “norn can still be physically fit” at 120 years old.

The wiki cites a secondhand source that says “The natural lifetime of a Norn is roughly 120 years. However, Norn rarely, if ever, live that long”. That’s the only reference to 120 that I can recall, although that’s not to say I couldn’t have missed one.

I think it has been said elsewhere, although I wouldn’t be able to say where.

Certainly, though, 120-ish seems to be “old” for a norn. There’s an indication that Forgal was over a century old – he’s still hale, but clearly on the old side.

It’s probably safe to assume that Jora was roughly 20-ish during EOTN. If we assume the 120 mark is also roughly the oldest a norn woman can conceive, then that would mean that the latest that she could have had a child is around 1180AE. That would make her about as old as Forgal. She certainly doesn’t look that old. Even taking into account that GW2 doesn’t have many realistic depictions of older women, Jhavi’s hair isn’t white enough to be contemporary to Forgal unless it’s dyed.

Now, we could potentially stretch the age at which a norn woman could give birth – maybe they don’t have menopause and could give birth at 150. That in itself is surprising in light of the 120 figure, and would still put Jhavi at roughly Forgal’s age. Whichever way you cut it, for Jhavi to be Jora’s immediate daughter you’re looking to span 260 years or so across just two generations with the first generation having to be at childbearing age at the birth of the second and the second generation still being of fighting age – even if we ignore the 120 figure and just use “norn live for over a century if they don’t die prematurely”, that’s still pretty surprising. If they had dwarven lifespans, sure, but for that sort of time gap to be spanned by two generations, with the younger generation still able to fight, I’d expect a lifespan of closer to two centuries.

Maybe he’s really an incarnation of Prince Rurik.

draxynnic.3719:

It’s possible “Jorasdottir” has become a family name, or that Jora has become a common name in the family and Jhavi is both a descendent of the Jora we know, and the daughter of a more recent Jora.

There’s certainly norn precedent for personal names being reused in multiple generations of a family line. Ask Olaf, Sevenfold Son of Olaf.

As for Rytlock, my revenant (norn) is a little creeped out by having voices in his head, particularly when it comes to Shiro or Mallyx. (Shiro’s “Let me out!” gives me the shivers and makes me wonder just how much control a revenant really has over the legends he is channeling.) I can well understand Rytlock being unwilling to talk about this given charr attitudes towards magic and gods. I don’t think he’s too comfortable with it himself, despite his talk about being pragmatic and calling himself “Shaman Rytlock” if that’s what it takes to solve the ghost problem. He’s got to be feeling pretty conflicted about the situation.

I do question whether Smodur has the power to directly promote or demote anyone in another legion even if assigned to his command. As I recall, my Ash Legion charr’s promotion to Centurion came through the Ash Tribune, despite my character having been assigned to work under Rytlock.