Guild Wars 2

Was reading through some of the articles on the wiki and got really into it when I came across this particular passage in the Jormag article:

“Whenever a group of norn attack Jormag or its champions, the men always return as icebrood, attacking the source of the group of norn in revenge; however, female norn never return. It is unknown what happens to them.”

I realise we probably don’t know the answer to the question I posed in the title but what I really wanted to ask was where did that information come from and is it legit?

Pretty sure that is from NPC conversation in Hoelbrak. Near the portal into Wayfarer Foothills.

Huh I will go have a look thanks. Do you know that from your own memory or was there some kind of super secret referencing on that page I didn’t see?

No, it’s from the Edge of Destiny novel. The exact quote: “The men return… as frozen icebrood. The women return… not at all.” And it is also true that we see no female norn icebrood, save perhaps the ones in such an advanced state of corruption that gender is no longer identifiable.

As to what happens to them, well, you have the right of it: we have no idea. We know for a fact that female kodan and, iirc, quaggans can be corrupted, we know we do not see corrupted female norn, and that’s more or less it. In a earlier thread on this topic that the crap search function can’t find, I know it was suggested that the female icebrood might be held back to avoid upsetting the Sons of Svanir, but I personally am not well enough versed in the topic to hold an informed opinion.

Well I would assume that he might use them as his personal sex toys but I could possibly be wrong.

I was going to jokingly suggest Jormag and its minions turns them into broodmothers, Dragon Age-style, but then I imagined that…

…and got very nauseous.

Ugh what if Jormag is giving the women to the svanir for their services?
Thanks for the replies, at first I was meh about the idea but I’m starting to really want to read the kitten books :P

Well in Eye of the North Jora is able to resist the lust for power that one of Jormag’s champions radiates, while her brother is consumed by it. However, it did break her bond with her totem animal, making it impossible for her to transform. Maybe Norn women in general are resilient to his influence, and die in the process of resisting him.

Sylvari-esque immunity? Hm… but why only Jormag? Why only the female norn?

The women walk away from the battle unscathed. Glad that Jormag took care of their annoying husbands and are all currently drinking a pint to Jormag in the far North, a women only festival.

Men are believed to be the weaker sex after all… x) and judging from Jora’s story, the same applies to Norn as does with Humans!

Jormag corrupts the mind with lust for power. That said, I wouldn’t be surprised if it involved another kind of lust considering the Sons of Svanir are a band of chauvinists.

I think Jormag turns the women into sex slaves.

Norn men are just more hungry for power and weaker of mind. Norn women are simply stronger, or at least that’s how I see it. Either way, the end result is unpleasant.

Also, keep in mind that Jormag is the only dragon that most Norn would come into contact with. It is currently unknown what the effects of the other dragons would be on Norn.

I imagine it’s some sort of sacrifice, considering the SoS are pretty much a fanatic cult. Probably some bizarre ritual where all the women and any men who won’t “convert” are killed. It just sort of seems like something they’d do. The “sex slave” stuff seems less likely to me. Generally misogynist religious zealots abstain from that sort of thing …until nobody’s looking. >.>

Explorer Hekja became Risen in Estate of Decay, so we know at least Zhaitan can corrupt female norn. We also find out, in the early norn quest where you become a minotaur, that Sons of Svanir don’t have any women around to reproduce with, so it’s not likely that they become sex slaves.

I think the most logical answer to this question would be that they just straight-out die, but the question is still why they would be killed instead of turning to icebrood, and whether it’s mental, physiological, or just Jormag being a misogynist.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Maybe Norn women in general are resilient to his influence, and die in the process of resisting him.

As far as I recall this is roughly accurate. There was some discussion in the book Edge of Destiny about the subject – I think it suggested that the women die, the men come back as icebrood. As for why? Not really sure. The Sons of Svanir may point back to the Svanir and Jora tale, but who’s to say that was the cause as opposed to merely the first example of Jormag’s “preference” for male norn?

Again, the quote was “The men return… as frozen icebrood. The women return… not at all.” It does not say the women die, just that they aren’t part of Jormag’s southern armies.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Well in Eye of the North Jora is able to resist the lust for power that one of Jormag’s champions radiates, while her brother is consumed by it. However, it did break her bond with her totem animal, making it impossible for her to transform. Maybe Norn women in general are resilient to his influence, and die in the process of resisting him.

Perhaps, for some, instead of dying while resisting Jormag, they lose their humanity and forever transform into their totem animal in body and spirit.

So all the wolves, bears, ravens, etc that you see around might be female Norn who resisted Jormag but lost their body in the process.

See I’ve been thinking about this after seeing a concept art.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:A_Trap_Foiled.jpg

It clearly depicts a female follower of Jormag. Now, one could shrug this off as simply something they decided not to use and left in because it was cool…….but I have a different though.

What if Jormag feels that, after what happened with Jora and her brother, the female norn has the most potential?

Now as for why Jormag would keep this a secret from the sons, perhaps he wishes them to feel like the chosen ones? After all the Sons all appear to be extremely weak willed, so I imagine it would be a way of stroking their ego. Not only that, perhaps Jormag’s “daughters” as I’ll call them are his trump card and thus he wants to keep them secret?

Still, the whole ordeal with Jora seems to suggest that perhaps women have a better resilience to his mental powers.

But maybe Norn women who are cursed, go into exile. Maybe they go off to fight Jormag and never return. I see no reason to assume Norn women can be turned by Jormag at all. The evidence seems to indicate the contrary.

That cutscene is no indication that women are more resilient- quite the opposite, it suggests that Svanir could’ve resisted the worst of the effects just as easily, had he cared to try.

We’re talking mental resilience here. Svanir embraced Jormag’s promises of power and prey, because he did not want to resist it. While Jora fought it and lost her connection with The Bear. It is quite possible that Jormag can more easily tempt male Norn than female Norn. This could be a physical difference, but it could today also be a cultural difference, since Jora is an example to many female Norn.

The Sons of Svanir are a different matter btw, they are simply male Norn who decided to freely pursue these same promises by Jormag. What Jora did (kill her brother) is widely known among all the Norn. This is why the Sons of Svanir do not want women amongst their ranks, because of what Jora did.

But to get back to this point of mental influence. We know both Jora and her brother Svanir could feel Jormag’s corrupting influence. But they felt a different thing. Her brother chose to embrace it (maybe male Norn are more willing to do so?), but Jora felt it was wrong. It is quite possible that since all female Norn are taught this story to this very day, that all of them instinctively resist Jormag’s manipulation. What we don’t know, is if all female Norn also feel that the power of Jormag is evil, as Jora did.

One thing we do know for sure. Jormag’s power can transform both male and female Norn alike physically and spiritually, even through the presence of one of his champions alone.

Also, we know that at least one male Norn was also able to resist Jormag’s influence: Asgeir Dragonrender. Who as far as we know, after taking Jormag’s tooth, was able to found Hoelbrak without being corrupted (it is at least never mentioned, as far as I know).

There is nothing that indicates they felt anything different, again quite the contrary, nor that Svanir’s susceptibility was due to being male. Svanir and Jora were different people, with many subtle factors playing into their identity. Male and female was by no stretch of the imagination the only relevant one. Nor can Svanir’s actions portray all norn- he is one man, and one man does not make a trend. The reason female norn don’t flock to Jormag’s banners is because Jormag’s representatives in norn territories are misogynists. The Sons can more easily tempt male norn, because the Sons don’t even try to tempt females. We have absolutely no reason to believe there’s anything deeper than that.

It is almost certain that Jormag’s tooth does not have the power to corrupt. The only indication we have that Elder Dragon body parts can corrupt is the sword in the Priory storyline, which A.) was made of blood, which in Guild Wars is innately magically potent, and B.) was tampered with in gods know what ways to make it into a sword. As for why Jormag didn’t corrupt him in the fight, we’re not so sure, but he did have help from the Spirits of the Wild. Perhaps we’ll learn in Sea of Sorrows (small chance, I know, but a man can hope.)

I would like to stress however that Svanir was turned into the Nornbear, while Jora was cursed (but she wasn’t changed in appearance). And if you look closely at what the Nornbear looks like, he is basically an icebrood champion. And we know that only male Norn return as icebrood.

This could mean that female Norn can’t be turned into icebrood at all.

The only way you could draw conclusions from that is if literally the only difference between them was their gender, or if you had a large sample size. In the absence of both those things, you have no case.

Well it makes it likely still. We have one confirmed case of a male and a female Norn being exposed to Jormag under the exact same conditions, and only the male transforming into an icebrood. And we have the complete absence of female Norn icebrood, while we know for a fact that both sexes have been exposed to Jormag’s power. I would not take that lightly.

It’s not conclusive evidence, but it is pretty compelling evidence.

I think the problem with your conclusion is that, from what we see, the norn women who go out to fight him do not return at all. This gives us no information about what occurred with them, whereas the norn men do return. I understand that this points towards possible conclusions, but there is nothing absolute that we can gain from it. In my mind, the idea that he captures the women and hauls them away for something else is just as possible as all norn women being unable to be corrupted.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

Again, the quote was “The men return… as frozen icebrood. The women return… not at all.” It does not say the women die, just that they aren’t part of Jormag’s southern armies.

Minor clarification: The discussion is about attacking the Dragonspawn, a champion of Jormag in the south.

The men who go to face the Dragonspawn are part of the Dragonspawn’s retaliation – there’s two such retaliations seen in the novel – while the women who go to face the Dragonspawn never return.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

I would like to stress however that Svanir was turned into the Nornbear, while Jora was cursed (but she wasn’t changed in appearance). And if you look closely at what the Nornbear looks like, he is basically an icebrood champion. And we know that only male Norn return as icebrood.

This could mean that female Norn can’t be turned into icebrood at all.

All it shows is that Jormag, who’s known to seduce with promises of power before corrupting, didn’t corrupt Jora through his champion, Drakkar.

There is an NPC in Frostgorge Sound, near the southern grawl camp. He states that unlike all other Elder Dragons who corrupt to enslave, Jormag first convinces individuals to follow him before corrupting. Jora didn’t follow him, so she wasn’t corrupted.

It could be as simple as that in Jora’s case.

Well that’s not always the case though. In Honor of the Waves, the Kodan Voice was corrupted against her will, at least from what I saw.

I personally view that as something akin to how the amulets from Necromancer Rissa turned the grubs from living to dead without inflicting harm, or how the Orrian artifact that Kellach had (which I suspect was an amulet from Rissa) was turning him into a champion of Zhaitan, despite the fact that everyhow else, Zhaitan only corrupts corpses.

That is, the Koda’s Bane guy was using Jormag’s corruption in a way that Jormag (and his highest champions like the Dragonspawn and, possibly, the Claw of Jormag and Drakkar) doesn’t prefer.

Svanir was able to cast spells even before his transformation into the Nornbear, suggesting that he was a spell-casting profession. Jora on the other hand was a Warrior, and thus things like magical power would have held little interest to her. Svanir was tempted by the power offered by Jormag and embraced it, but that was probably due more to a spellcaster’s love for more magic than any innate weakness on his gender’s part.

Jormag seduces people by promising them power and prey. He appeals to what they want. I doubt Svanir’s profession had anything to do with it. Power after all can come in many forms. It does not have to mean magic. Norn in general all aspire to become heroes and great hunters, so the promise of a great hunt could be a way for Jormag to seduce a Norn warrior as well.

As Konig said, the only thing we do know is that of these two, Jora was the only one who resisted (but got cursed none the less). This tells us that though resisting the power of Jormag is possible, his foul influence can still affect you.

The many male Norn that are turned into icebrood are of various professions. And I’m sure they were tempted with different promises each. The Sons of Svanir also cover many professions, from warriors to archers and shamans.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I personally view that as something akin to how the amulets from Necromancer Rissa turned the grubs from living to dead without inflicting harm, or how the Orrian artifact that Kellach had (which I suspect was an amulet from Rissa) was turning him into a champion of Zhaitan, despite the fact that everyhow else, Zhaitan only corrupts corpses.

That is, the Koda’s Bane guy was using Jormag’s corruption in a way that Jormag (and his highest champions like the Dragonspawn and, possibly, the Claw of Jormag and Drakkar) doesn’t prefer.

There are some huge flaws in there.

Firstly, the artifacts that corrupted Kellach came from a plundered Orrian Dead Ship that the Ravenous and her crew ambushed on the high seas. Alasita Crow knew they were cursed, and so did her crewmates, and so they sold it to Kellach who didn’t. They thought they’d made a good bargain…

You are also wrong on Jormag’s champions. It is shown in several events in Frostgorge (maybe some in Snowden, too) and a whole renown heart in Snowden that the Claws bombard areas with corrupted ice crystals which then corrupt those around them. Also, the Dragonspawn was more than willing to turn dead or defeated norn into icebrood, without their consent.

I’d say Jormag’s only reason for trying with mingling his way to norn through promises is that more will likely flock to him without having to fight to dominate them. In other words, he won’t be seen as a hated, public enemy by the Fools of Svanir who will willingly undergo corruption, fight for him, and bring in more minions later on. He’s just recruiting an army as well as corrupting one. Doubled progress.

Quote from Eilif (Son of Svanir in Hoelbrak)“Begone, woman. The Sons have nothing to say to you or your fellow skirt-wearing wenches.”

Sounds like Jormag doesn’t try to recruit females. Or at least he doesn’t have his followers trying to recruit them.

Celestina.2894:

See I’ve been thinking about this after seeing a concept art.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/File:A_Trap_Foiled.jpg

It clearly depicts a female follower of Jormag. Now, one could shrug this off as simply something they decided not to use and left in because it was cool…….but I have a different though.

What if Jormag feels that, after what happened with Jora and her brother, the female norn has the most potential?

Now as for why Jormag would keep this a secret from the sons, perhaps he wishes them to feel like the chosen ones? After all the Sons all appear to be extremely weak willed, so I imagine it would be a way of stroking their ego. Not only that, perhaps Jormag’s “daughters” as I’ll call them are his trump card and thus he wants to keep them secret?

I like this one tbh. Makes a LOT of sense to me

Simplicity.7208:

Quote from Eilif (Son of Svanir in Hoelbrak)“Begone, woman. The Sons have nothing to say to you or your fellow skirt-wearing wenches.”

Sounds like Jormag doesn’t try to recruit females. Or at least he doesn’t have his followers trying to recruit them.

Keep in mind that the Sons of Svanir simply worship Jormag, and have their own reasons for not wanting women among their ranks (the whole Jora tale). That doesn’t mean they are declining women on direct orders of Jormag. They are a cult, and have their own rules.

Honestly I always assumed that after Jora rejected his power and then killed his first new champion Jormag holds a grudge against female norn and refuses to have them in his armies. I also assumed they were killed outright instead but it’s possible they’re kept imprisoned for another purpose (maybe used as slave workers?).

We know that Jormag can and will corrupt females of other races, and we know female norn can be corrupted by Zhaitan. Also, in spite of the sexual dimorphism, male and female norn seem pretty equal in every other way so I don’t buy the idea that female norn are inately immune to Zhaitans corruption.

I also don’t accept that female norn as a whole have less/no desire for power and all conciously and independantly choose to reject the corruption. Again in every other way they’ve shown themselves to be just as ambitious as the men and these are individuals we’re talking about. They’re not one amorphous single-minded group, they have their own thoughts and opinions and feelings and make their own decisions. If the sylvari who are all siblings and all indoctinated into their Mothers way of thinking before they’re even ‘born’ can go on to make their own, wildly different, decisons I don’t think you can simply say female norn are taught about Jora and therefore choose not to be corrupted. (Besides the men learn about her too.)

Also we know that the different dragon champions each have some level of autonomy so it’s possible they have their own methods of corruption too. Maybe Drakkar prefers a subtle approach, drawing followers in and persuading them to accept the corruption willingly (maybe he thinks it corrupts them more thoughly or makes them more devoted servants) and others like the Dragon Spawn or Claw prefer a more direct approach.

Likewise Zhaitan could have some champions who raise dead bodies (although he seems to mainly do that himself) and others who simultaniously kill and corrupt living targets, kind of like various zombie movies.

Danikat.8537:

Honestly I always assumed that after Jora rejected his power and then killed his first new champion Jormag holds a grudge against female norn and refuses to have them in his armies. I also assumed they were killed outright instead but it’s possible they’re kept imprisoned for another purpose (maybe used as slave workers?).

I find that unlikely. After all it was a male Norn who is said to have taken Jormag’s own tooth, while Jora only killed one of his champions. So if anything, Jormag should have a grudge against male Norn.

I’m personally going to be one who votes for the idea that there is something else going on behind the curtains with corrupted female norn. That quote from the woman in Hoelbrak regarding female norn not coming back was put in there for a reason. I saw that as foreshadowing. They could have just as easily left it out, or it could have read-

“What happens to norn who go and fight the Dragonspawn?”

“They come back as Icebrood!”

and the story really would not have changed, but instead, the writer decided to add the part regarding the sexes. I think we will know more when the main story shifts towards Jormag.

Someone should report Jormag for not being an equal-opportunities employer.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Danikat.8537:

Honestly I always assumed that after Jora rejected his power and then killed his first new champion Jormag holds a grudge against female norn and refuses to have them in his armies. I also assumed they were killed outright instead but it’s possible they’re kept imprisoned for another purpose (maybe used as slave workers?).

I find that unlikely. After all it was a male Norn who is said to have taken Jormag’s own tooth, while Jora only killed one of his champions. So if anything, Jormag should have a grudge against male Norn.

Why would Jormag have a grudge against male Norn just because they took 1 of his teeth? I would assume that killing one of his champions would hit him harder than losing a tooth.

I’d disagree, VitalSuit. By taking out one of Jormag’s teeth, Aesgir damage Jormag himself, not just his replaceable army. It showed right away that a single person aided by particular magics could do harm to the Elder Dragon which has lived for thousands upon thousands of years. The act of it hits home to the Elder Dragons that they are very much mortal and killable – perhaps why Kralkatorrik hasn’t been heard of since fighting Destiny’s Edge in which he was nearly killed, and just like how Zhaitan was in fear as the Pact crossed through Orr.

Though honestly, Jora’s and Aesgir’s acts would, IMO, only make Jormag wanting to corrupt the norn even more, because what they did proves how strong the race are – which I would think an Elder Dragon whose minions constantly refer to strength through Jormag would desire to have under his control.

Something I’ve noticed that gets overlooked quite a bit is an idle chatter in Hoelbrak, at the large bridge. There’s two women (an old woman and a younger one) talking about the Sons of Svanir and Jormag and about this very topic: why Jormag seems to only have male followers and minions. Their final conclusion was that Jormag was playing “divide and conquer” – to separate the men from women, making the race weaker and less able to procreate, in order to drive the norn into extinction.

Sounds plausible to me. Corrupt half, let the other half die off, then rule what’s left.

We know that Jormag corrupt the people by promising them power. Perhaps for this reason, in order to not obscure their “new vision” then Jormag prevents to corrupt female norn (instead he kills them) because if the Son of Svanir had some feelings of love towards them then the Jormag’s grip would be more feeble.
It’s a way to prevent this, in almost all fantasy stories such feelings can break curses, etc. ..

VitalSuit.1980:

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Danikat.8537:

Honestly I always assumed that after Jora rejected his power and then killed his first new champion Jormag holds a grudge against female norn and refuses to have them in his armies. I also assumed they were killed outright instead but it’s possible they’re kept imprisoned for another purpose (maybe used as slave workers?).

I find that unlikely. After all it was a male Norn who is said to have taken Jormag’s own tooth, while Jora only killed one of his champions. So if anything, Jormag should have a grudge against male Norn.

Why would Jormag have a grudge against male Norn just because they took 1 of his teeth? I would assume that killing one of his champions would hit him harder than losing a tooth.

While it’s true Jora killed one of his champions, it was a male norn who attacked him directly and taking the tooth of an elder dragon as a prize is not a small feet OR a small insult to Jormag.

Ok first, jora was cautious and reluctant to even go near the power at the lake while her brother, like Arthas taking frostmourn, was willing to take its power as his own.

Here are the two mental reactions: the female of the two; is on the edge of a her fight or flight response activating and thus fights the power and then runs away, for all we know the bear within her was from then on fighting a constant battle against Jormags corruptive influence: the male of the two; is not only accepting of the power but is arrogant enough to think he can control it… his bear spirit becomes directly tainted by it transforming him into his animal form and he is under Jormags control.

As you can see if their mind states had been the same they both would have been taken over or as jora wanted they would have simply left the power alone, meanwhile if their mindstates had been reversed their positions would have also been reversed.

Second Jora, a female, gathered together a group of allies to help kill, the now martyr of the brotherhood, svanir… they see females in general as weak and untrustworthy because of this as you can tell by the words of blane the insane; a skill point holder on darkriven bluffs of the norn starter area.

This does not exclude female norn from the service of jormag… however… it does exclude all females from the sons of svanir… the main fighting force/ cannon fodder of jormag from what i can tell… any females that fight them likely die and most female norn probably go up against them instead of one of jormags other followers.

In short… there probably are a few rare female norn icebrood… do they get sent on the front line? maybe not… do the ones that see them report them? maybe not… do the ones that see them live to report them? maybe not… lots of unknown factors but yes there are probably one or two female norn icebrood at the least.

As for jormag feeling bad mad about the guy taking a tooth from him… well… maybe the root was rotted and he really only helped prevent jormag from dieing of toothdecay working its way up into the dragons brain and said dragon knows it?

Could jormag have even allowed him to take the tooth out and let him live as a reward for helping him? i’ve collect rabbit food from rabid rabbits with an insane knockback ability… i doubt there isn’t a quest for rotted dragon tooth removal somewhere out there.

Darth Corpse.7246:

In short… there probably are a few rare female norn icebrood… do they get sent on the front line? maybe not… do the ones that see them report them? maybe not… do the ones that see them live to report them? maybe not… lots of unknown factors but yes there are probably one or two female norn icebrood at the least.

There is no basis to assume this at all. We have never ever seen a single female Norn icebrood. Not one. So we have no reason to assume they are turned, or can be turned at all. How ever, we also have no evidence to assume the opposite.

Female norn are also known as Jormag Chow

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

There is no basis to assume this at all. We have never ever seen a single female Norn icebrood. Not one. So we have no reason to assume they are turned, or can be turned at all. How ever, we also have no evidence to assume the opposite.

I guess you only read that part instead of what i based the idea on… selective reading…. don’t worry i suffer from it sometimes as well

Also… i have seen one… there is a poster of either a female icebrood or a female version of the norn Svanir who is a an icebrood, apparently they wanted something bulkier after designing it… i would have stuck with the first idea. icebear vs icedragon dragon wins every time

Google Female Norn Icebrood should be right near the top of images.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

There is no basis to assume this at all. We have never ever seen a single female Norn icebrood. Not one. So we have no reason to assume they are turned, or can be turned at all. How ever, we also have no evidence to assume the opposite.

When the only thing in the entire world known to be immune/resistent to dragon corruption of any kind is the Forgotten’s magic and the sylvari, it is practically foolhardy to believe just because we don’t see something corrupted means it cannot be corrupted.

That is like presuming that centaurs are immune to corruption because we see no corrupted centaurs. Or largos. Or jotun. Or grawl. Or wurms. Or bats.

You get my point, I hope.

Furesy.6935:

The women walk away from the battle unscathed. Glad that Jormag took care of their annoying husbands and are all currently drinking a pint to Jormag in the far North, a women only festival.

Men are believed to be the weaker sex after all… x) and judging from Jora’s story, the same applies to Norn as does with Humans!

I like this interpretation haha. The gender dynamic is pretty different for Norn compared to humans, and rightfully so.

Or they could be sex slaves, sadly. It should be mentioned in living story updates, or perhaps should have been done in frost and flame offhandedly. But in all likelihood they could be corrupted if Jormag wanted to do so but he just doesn’t for whatever reason. He just has icy affliction kill them and not turn them.

Just saying there are some corrupted largos, there’s either a vet or champ one in frost gore at the end of the guild rush quaggas one in the water! And the jungle wurm I think is corrupted by something(mordemeth maybe?)