Guild Wars 2

Ok I get the Dream, sort of. That’s a shared spirituality/consciousness/empathy between the Sylvari and the Pale Tree. The Dream may have existed before the Pale Tree or come into existence with the Pale Tree. All Sylvari were born into the Dream and woke in the world. Without the Pale Tree the Sylvari will lose the Dream, presumably. Syvlari have empathy with the Dream but can’t use the Dream to pass information (telepathy) or do other magics. As with many oracular powers, there’s little point speculating how the dream has so much knowledge of the past, future, and present.

So Nightmare? Is it a separate shared empathy/consciousness to the Dream, simply the abandonment of the Dream, or another part of the Dream? Has Nightmare existed for as long as the Dream or as long as the Nightmare Court? Can Nightmare exist without the Pale Tree or is there another conduit that connects the court to the Nightmare? What happens when Sylvari turn to Nightmare? Why would Sylvari want to turn to Nightmare even if they abandon the Dream?

Perhaps someone could perhaps answer simpler questions such as what do the Nightmare Court want? If they could gain control of the Pale Tree just what would they do with it? What would they do afterwards?

The Nightmare Court feel that the Ventari Tablet has shifted the core of what Sylvari are away. They feel like their kind are corrupted by it’s words, so they plan to free Sylvari from this by changing the dream into nightmare. Pretty much, the dream and nightmare have co-existed for some time. There has always been a darker side to the dream, as Caithe fought a dragon in hers, and it has always been assumed that the shadow settling over the dream is meant to represent the shadow of the dragons over Tyria. The Nightmare court feel differently, that the nightmare is their true form. They seek to recruit newly born sylvari into their cause by introducing memories of torture and pain into the dream. Since all memories flow back into the dream they plan to use this to slowly transform the dream into a full nightmare. Konig can feel free to come in and correct/fill in gaps for what I have said.

First Ree Soesbee said some interesting things on guru bout the dream:

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Q: It doesn’t make a lot of sense to me that a newly born race, with no actual experience in the outside world, would know to embrace the tablet’s teachings without some sort of intervention by the maker of the tablet. How would they know how to read it? (…how did the first generation know HOW to read?)

A: Many of the first memories within the Dream of Dreams, the first thoughts and conclusions, belong to the Pale Tree herself, and are expanded upon by her children as they are born and go out into the world. The Pale Tree is not a humanoid, but nevertheless, she has thoughts, feelings, and wisdom that she shares with unawakened sylvari as they Dream. She was there when Ventari and Ronan shared their hopes for the future, and watched as they fell to despair that their vision of a peaceful world would not be established within their lifetimes. She was there when Ventari lived out the last of his years alone, though she could not speak to comfort him. She was there when he carved his last words into the Tablet; after he died, she held the carved stone among her roots, Dreaming of its lessons and sharing them with her children who would one day awaken, and be sylvari.

Q: The memories are shared collectively within the dream? How, then, is each sylvari a unique individual?

A: Yes, but not in a unified manner. The Dream is a deep well, into which memory and thought are poured as each sylvari learns and experiences the world. A newborn sylvari takes memories from that well in part, not in whole; like a bowl filled with water from that lake, they see only a small fraction of their race’s collective experience. The Pale Tree ensures that each sylvari who awakens has been given a basic understanding of the Tablet, the world, and the love she has for each of them.

The Tree’s memories teach lessons, such as reading, the basic tasks of living, how to wield a weapon. Seeing and experiencing more personal memories from other sylvari does not make each sylvari less individual; they are free-willed, and can make up their own mind as to what they have seen. Each sylvari’s Dream is different; they do not see every memory that the Tree holds. Rather, they experience only a small portion of the whole. Each sylvari’s Dream contains both the Tree’s lessons, and a portion of memories and feelings drawn from the mélange of images and emotions of the combined sylvari experience.

Those Firstborn that remain with the Tree often spend a great deal of their time helping newly awakened sylvari understand what they have Dreamed. This includes lessons to explain the Tablet’s writings as the sylvari interpret them; a better sense of sylvari history; and education about the world around them.
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( http://www.guildwars2guru.com/topic/7826-sylvari-background/page__st__150#entry529646 )

This should explain what the dream is. The nightmare is in my opinion the subconsious part of the dream. The pale tree who is the ’ host’ of the dream is a highly intelligent being that knows what the realworld is and does. The nightmare represents her doubts and fears.

The nightmare court states that Ventari has changed subconsious part of the pale tree and that it should be bigger and more present then it is now. Basicly, forget all there nonsense and idealistics: They are afraid, they fear the threads of the real world and their whole ideoligy is based on fear. Just as e.g. germans in ww2 where acting out of fear, this fear comes out as violence against others.

The Nightmare itself is the Dream, from the perspective of a sociopath. It is the same pool of shared emotions and memories, tied to the Pale Tree, as the Dream that mainstream Sylvari claim to share. Physically, it is part of the Dream, as defined as those aspects that contain darker emotions or memories, but the borders aren’t always clear.

As a philosophy, the Nightmare is about rejection of norms established by external forces. The Nightmare Court would argue that the Nightmare is an older part of the Dream of Dreams than the Ventari Tablet-inspired aspects, but even assuming that this is a lie or otherwise incorrect, the basic bad memories are likely still as old as the Firstborn. They hold that by encouraging negative perspectives to take root in the Dream, this will cause the Sylvari as a race to distrust the Ventari Tablet and turn to a new moral code and outlook. ((This is likely false: Malyck was born without memory of the Tablet, but is closer in morality and mindset to the mainstream Sylvari or Soundless than to the Nightmare Court.))

Note that Nightmare Court Sylvari would argue that they do not abandon the Dream, so much as they exist to fulfill it and free it from the restrictions of the Tablet’s false morality. The Nightmare Court still feeds emotion into the Dream (although they quickly become jaded to pain or horror), and can still feel or be felt as the buzz of Sylvari presences. Falling to Nightmare isn’t a matter of being physically or magically altered, but of one’s experiences changing the relative value of concepts like xenophobia or trust.

Sylvari can choose to abandon the Dream, but this is a difficult and different (and probably incompatible) action to falling into Nightmare. Only a small group have done so, however, and such Soundless Sylvari are found only in Caledon Forest at The Weeping Isle.

It’s not clear what the Nightmare Court end-game is, or if the Nightmare Court itself knows. They’re fighting, in many ways, to change how their own minds work. The point it to know how to rule themselves, rather than how to follow the teachings of a carved rock. In practice, the nature of the Nightmare means that they are corrupting themselves into sociopathy — in philosophical terms, rather than achieving a Knight of Faith or Ubermensch, they’re just establishing a separate anti-Tablet code. That’s likely to keep them xenophobic and territorial monsters that revel in pain and sadism and extreme emotion, because it’s the new norm for freshly ripe Sylvari. They might try to plant new Pale Trees (or find other existing ones), but in the short term they’ll be trying to wipe out the Asura and Human civilizations.

Stooperdale.3560:

Ok I get the Dream, sort of. That’s a shared spirituality/consciousness/empathy between the Sylvari and the Pale Tree. The Dream may have existed before the Pale Tree or come into existence with the Pale Tree. […] As with many oracular powers, there’s little point speculating how the dream has so much knowledge of the past, future, and present.

You got some things right, but not much.

1. The Dream of Dreams is made of memories, aether, and is still very mysterious even to the Pale Tree. (This makes me think that the Dream of Dreams is tied to the Mists, so I disagree on the last sentence quoted ).
2. The Dream predates the Pale Tree and is not unique to the sylvari. The Pale Tree is simply acting as a caretaker.

Stooperdale.3560:

So Nightmare? Is it a separate shared empathy/consciousness to the Dream, simply the abandonment of the Dream, or another part of the Dream? Has Nightmare existed for as long as the Dream or as long as the Nightmare Court? Can Nightmare exist without the Pale Tree or is there another conduit that connects the court to the Nightmare? What happens when Sylvari turn to Nightmare? Why would Sylvari want to turn to Nightmare even if they abandon the Dream?

The Nightmare is equally mysterious as the full nature of the Dream. What we’re told is that:

1. It’s a natural part of the Dream, and is the darker side of it. Some Nightmare Court recruiters in the personal storyline describe the Dream as a representation of the “bright” side of life (happiness, goodness, joy), while the Nightmare is the “dark” side of life (sorrow, anger, fear) while also, falsely, claiming that the NC is aiming for a balance of the two.
2. Some sylvari believe it cannot be beaten – unlike the Nightmare Court.
3. It may have been caused by the Elder Dragon(s)‘s influence (with line comes from ooold interviews or some such from way back when, so I’m not sure where it came from – might have been the Movement of the World?) of thought that’s implied by old sources, it’s possible that it could be tied to Mordremoth, the sixth Elder Dragon).
4. The Nightmare has existed before the Nightmare Court – Faolain was the first to fall into Nightmare, before the court was established by Cadeyrn-or-whatever-his-name-is.
5. Physically, nothing visually happens to sylvari who fall to Nightmare – though Edge of Destiny does show some physical deformity that showed on Caithe as she fought against it. Mentally, they’re a lot more sadistic and overall cruel. Plus, it’s said they can’t return from the nightmare.
6. They’re not abandoning the Dream since the Nightmare is just a part of the Dream. Why those who are touched by the Nightmare seek it isn’t really known at the moment.

Stooperdale.3560:

Perhaps someone could perhaps answer simpler questions such as what do the Nightmare Court want? If they could gain control of the Pale Tree just what would they do with it? What would they do afterwards?

The Nightmare Court was established to make sylvari live without the guidance of other races (the Ventari Tablet); that is, to decide how to live themselves. However, it seems that this has changed and has become just simply wanting to throw the entire sylvari race and the Pale Tree into the Nightmare. If they twist the Pale Tree, it’d simply ensure that all future sylvari are naturally part of the Nightmare – nothing more really.

If the Dream of Dreams is connected to the Mists, could it be connected to the Mists’ creative properties? I kind of got that idea when I was reading Razah’s Nightfall’s description from the wiki.

“The protomatter that makes up the Mists strains toward creation, often spawning demonic creations in nightmarish forms. Not all creatures from the Mists are demonic, however. When the Mists come into contact with a suitable human template, for example, it can copy that form, creating a sentient entity with humanoid appearance and an almost human mind.

Razah is one such creation. It has sprung into being a fully-formed adult. It has the knowledge and capabilities of a human, but lacks common sense. As a result, it asks odd questions about human emotions, contemplates human motivations, and attempts to duplicate human mannerisms. Razah is a contradiction: more than human in some ways, and less than human in others. It needs an identity, a personality, and a purpose. Hopefully, it will find its purpose by working with a hero. Otherwise, it could degenerate into an abomination as monstrous and inhuman as its demonic brethren. "

The Pale Tree(s) could have possibly pulled a Yggdrasil, and connected to the Mists. The Pale Tree was then able to provide a constant human template, which the Mists/Dream used when shaping the Sylvari. The Sylvari then would be born in Tyria, after they are fully formed.

As for the Nightmare, that is always a constant in the Mists. I think the Nightmare Court however fall into the, “Hopefully, it will find its purpose by working with a hero. Otherwise, it could degenerate into an abomination as monstrous and inhuman as its demonic brethren.” part.

The Sylvari that we know, since we know next to nothing about the other Pale Tree, were provided the Ventari Tablets and its teachings, which gave them a purpose since birth. Those that disregarded its teachings, even more so from a young age, are more susceptible to the Nightmare and falling into “degeneration”.

The whole of the Mists is a creator, more or less. But the Dream of Dreams seems more based on the aspects of the Mists related to time rather than creating things – “n the middle of The Mists is a spot where time moves neither forward nor back. It is a tear in the fabric of the cosmos, the point of perfect balance between all forces of the universe. This place is known as the Rift, and there is nothing to which it does not connect, nothing that cannot be reached from inside it. Those who have the know-how to travel across the universe through the Mists must pass through the Rift on their way to all other places. It is the center of all things. "

As for the sylvari looking humanoid – we’re told that the Pale Tree chose that appearance. Probably the same for the sylvan hounds. (Though why Malyck looks humanoid isn’t entirely known… yet).

Thank you for those replies. They are helpful.

So the nightmare court appear to be rejecting their parental morality in favor of self determination. Their selfishness leaves them vulnerable to whatever fears are revealed to them through the Nightmare. Presumably they act based on their fears rather than their hopes and also expect others to do the same, leading to a society where the powerful seek to dominate through slavery and sadism.

Personally, the Nightmare Court approach strikes me as similar to that of a rebellious teenager. They claim to be all about independence from their parents, but the actions they choose to take are often to be in opposition to their parents rather than being truly independent of them.

They’re just overly obsessed with the Pale Tree and her philosophies, making the warped decision that the only way to be separate from her is to completely go against her.

The sylvari that truly want to be independent become Soundless.

You probably view them that way because it more or less began exactly like that. Though they seem to be steadily going away from “ignore the Ventari Tablet” to “go the opposite of the Ventari Tablet” in their proclamations as well as actions. (btw, it’s not the Pale Tree they oppose but the Ventari Tablet).

"
Physically, nothing visually happens to sylvari who fall to Nightmare – though Edge of Destiny does show some physical deformity that showed on Caithe as she fought against it. Mentally, they’re a lot more sadistic and overall cruel. Plus, it’s said they can’t return from the nightmare."

The Nightmare could very well corrupt the beings physically, in that Nightmare Hounds are quite different than fern hounds, though they supposedly are both the same thing.

The question is how much of that is a lore change, and how much of it is mechanics to that players can tell the difference between hostile and non-hostile units.

The hounds and mosshearts twisted by the Nightmare Court do indeed change drastically – becoming darker and overall more decrepit – but the sylvari do not (this I actually use as part of my Nightmare=Mordremoth’s influence theory; since sylvari are immune to dragon corruption, they don’t change physically but due to the Dream/Nightmare, they’re changed mentally – while the things they spread the influence to (hounds, mosshearts, husks) do change physically).

Narcemus.1348:

The question is how much of that is a lore change, and how much of it is mechanics to that players can tell the difference between hostile and non-hostile units.

Red text.

And to Konig: Fern hounds come out the same way as sylvari, only less self aware. Shouldn’t they be able to resist corruption like sylvari?

Lol, yes, but not all players play the game with their finger constantly on the control and alt keys. I mean yes technically they could make enemies look however they wanted. But it is easier for players to discern danger from a distance if enemies are all of a specific skin type. Which would be why all flame legion wear the same colored armor, all the nightmare court outside of Twilight Arbor are dark skinned, and inquest golems are red.

Not necessarily, Beetle. We don’t know what it is that makes sylvari immune. I somehow doubt it’s that they’re from the Pale Tree.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The hounds and mosshearts twisted by the Nightmare Court do indeed change drastically – becoming darker and overall more decrepit – but the sylvari do not (this I actually use as part of my Nightmare=Mordremoth’s influence theory; since sylvari are immune to dragon corruption, they don’t change physically but due to the Dream/Nightmare, they’re changed mentally – while the things they spread the influence to (hounds, mosshearts, husks) do change physically).

Yes, and that makes Mordremoth the biggest threat among all the dragons. If his domain is the dream he’s connected to the mists. That means that he could even try to attack the 6 human gods, create his own domain and threaten the very existence of the world. Like Abaddon did some centuries ago.

Well there is a difference whether he can just influence the dream with his mind (a kind of twist on Jormag, taking mental power to a different level) and whether he can physically enter the mists and wreak havok. I would honestly be very disappointed if the storyline didn’t take players into the mists more, with Realm of Torment like maps or such, but it doesn’t necessarily have to happen.

Ludovicus.7980:

Yes, and that makes Mordremoth the biggest threat among all the dragons. If his domain is the dream he’s connected to the mists. That means that he could even try to attack the 6 human gods, create his own domain and threaten the very existence of the world. Like Abaddon did some centuries ago.

The Dragonbrand contains both the Tomb of Drascir (at least supposedly) as well as the Tomb of the Primeval Kings – two portals to the Mists there.

Zhaitan had control of the Ring of Fire – where the Door of Komalie is – and was waging war with Elona’s northern border – in the direction of the Mouth of Torment.

Jormag, through the Sons of Svanir, has been sending minions into the Mists directly.

Primordus, if he can get the old asura gates to link up to the new asura gates, would be possibly capable of getting asura gate access into the WvW areas of the Mists.

The only dragon which doesn’t have some (possible) tie to the Mists is the deep sea dragon, so if the Dream=the Mists and Nightmare=Mordremoth’s influence, that doesn’t make Mordremoth the most harmful, since Jormag has a bigger presence in the Mists atm.

Honestly, given how we haven’t heard ANYTHING about Kralkatorrik for 5 years, and his minions are heading south only, I wouldn’t doubt he went into the Tomb of the Primeval King portal and is making a nice little throne in the Hall of Heroes while in a war with the spirits (since he seems unwilling/unable/unwanting to corrupt spirits/ghosts).

Would be a nice way to explain why we don’t have access to it for our sPvP.

Konig: Given the hint Collin gave us bout the possible location of mordremoth (magguma jungle he called it) and given Mallyck, the riverbank he woke up on and possible origin of that river …..

How would you tie the knots together bout the ‘other’ pale tree in your theory??

My personal feelings (wild thoughts that are not really categorised) is that this tree is somewhat influenced (corrupted would be the wrong word, cause of the strong consequence of physiacl change) by Mordremoth so it has no dream nor nightmare and only produces sylvari. These sylvari, though unseen so far, didn’t have a dream and therefor no purpose and therefor no free will and would be equal to minions.

Malyck would prove part of that as the opposite, but then again, it might be that this tree is rebellious and smuggled him out (or actually had his pod drop into this river wich led him to safer places)

I know im having a wild mindblow here, but would like to know your thoughts bout the second tree’s location and the location of mordremoth (assuming both the rumours/theory’s bout these locations are correct).

The Maguuma Jungle is very big – it contains the Magus Falls, Maguuma Wastes (which is speculated in lore (though not in-game) to be caused by ED), and the Tarnished Coast. Basically, take everything that is east of Kryta and north of the Ring of Fire – that’s the Maguuma Jungle (all the way to the off-the-map western coastline, and including the northern coastline that goes into Janthir Bay). Malyck’s tree is likely in the area that was The Falls in GW1 – which is within Magus Falls now – as that’s where the river on the map ends (it goes south into Metrica Province then east into Magus Falls, ending either within The Falls or between The Falls and Tangle Root).

We see, perhaps, the most influence coming in Caledon Forest, with next to nothing evil-plant related in Metrica Province and little in Brisban Wildlands.

Malyck holds nothing similar to the Nightmare Court or the Nightmare – and in fact, lacks any Dream of Dreams tie.

Based on observations, I think that – as stated above here in this thread – that the Nightmare is the closest ties to the sylvari that Mordremoth gets. Mordremoth’s influence doesn’t disconnect the tree from the Dream of Dreams and we know that the Dream of Dreams isn’t unique to the Pale Tree nor the sylvari race. There is absolutely nothing which implies or indicates Mordremoth holds any influence – directly or indirectly – on or with Malyck whatsoever. Nada, nothing. Not even his unknown tree. However, it should be noted that because Malyck didn’t have a Dream doesn’t mean his tree isn’t tied to the Dream of Dreams – the Firstborn only had such because the Pale Tree had learned something herself. Grown in the wilderness, without nurturing, Malyck’s tree would be without such and may not have found it worth giving Malyck a DoD experience. Or it may not hold a connection to the Dream like the Pale Tree has of natural reasons (we don’t know why the Pale Tree has a connection to the Dream).

Just because a sylvari doesn’t experience the Dream of Dream doesn’t make them “without purpose” or having “no free will” – Malyck, as you state, had no Dream of Dream but very much has a free will. If anything, those who experience the Dream of Dreams has less free will than those who don’t – because the Wyld Hunt (their “purpose”) is imposed on them by another force, and though they’re not forced to complete the Wyld Hunt, they’re constantly feeling like they should (I think of it like if we’re bored and thus gain an appetite; we don’t have to eat but our brain is telling us to eat).

So I honestly think there’s absolutely no ties between Mordremoth and the sylvari. The closest you get is the Nightmare, but that’s not sylvari-unique. The White Stag is on par to the Pale Tree in that both are creatures which exist both within the Dream and within Tyria at the same time.

As to where Mordremoth is – I’m betting he’s off the map at the moment, or he’s near/within Wychmire Swamp (which seems to hold “non-Nightmare Court Summoned Husks” according to Gamarian – the meta event there deals with a bunch of NC-related mobs, but we’re told that it’s not the NC’s doing, and it calls those mobs “Blighted”).

Fun fact: In Wychmire Swamp, there are three huge moss covered stone heads. To me, they look like mossheart faces. Related to Mordremoth?

I personally feel that if Mordremoth was anywhere within the Maguuma Jungle, it would be closer to the Bloodstone. The only reason I feel this is because of the fact that Elder Dragons move to the location of magical items to be devoured. I would think, this being the biggest magical item in the area, that this would be Mordremoth’s choice.

Narcemus.1348:

I personally feel that if Mordremoth was anywhere within the Maguuma Jungle, it would be closer to the Bloodstone. The only reason I feel this is because of the fact that Elder Dragons move to the location of magical items to be devoured. I would think, this being the biggest magical item in the area, that this would be Mordremoth’s choice.

Indeed

Would it be possible for the jungle dragon to still be asleep, and only providing a malign influence through nightmare for the time being?

Yes. Though some believe that it’s waking up due to the Arah explorable jotun path – the point is telling us that a new star is born when Elder Dragons rise, and we can see a cinematic where a new star is made, indicating that in 1325 AE/1326 AE, an Elder Dragon rises.