Guild Wars 2

It probably sounds crazy but I can’t help wondering if we really need to be fighting the dragons.

As far as I know no one has even tried a diplomatic approach with any of them and it seems to me at least some might be intelligent and rational enough to listen. Glint was one of their champions and she got on fine with the humans, dwarves, forgotten and possibly some other races.

Maybe I’m just biased. I love dragons and I’m always slightly dissapointed when they’re so often just big, scary monsters for the “good guys” to kill.

But I also feel like it’s a genuine mistake humanity has made many times in real life, and all the Tyrian races have made in the past – just because someone is attacking you, even trying to kill you, doesn’t mean your only option is to respond in kind. No one really gained anything by following up the Searing with the Foefire, but it looks like we’re rapidly gaining a lot from a diplomatic solution to the charr/human conflict and I can’t help wondering if it wouldn’t be worth at least trying the same with the dragons.

Because Elder dragons are desrcibed as big hungry blobs of magic that only hunger for more magic. They´re like natural disaster as in they don´t have intelligence in the sense we see it, rather the only force that drives them is need to consume more magic.
They create Champions that think like normal creatures would, they do the brainwork in organizing dragons minions in order to consume magic more efficiently.

Glint actually turned against Kral due to her ability to see inside the mind of Kral’s enemies, and therefore became empathetic to them.

The dragons are not described as a intelligent, thinking being, but rather a force of nature. Whether or not this is true, the dragons would likely just corrupt someone before they would agree (if they could) to peace.

Why have peace with something when you have the power to stomp it out of existence?

The Elder Dragons aren’t individuals. They aren’t even really dragons, they just have that form because… I guess because dragons are cool. If there’s a lore reason for it, we don’t know it yet.
You may notice that they are called ‘it’ by the NPCs in a system where everyone else, even the Risen, is either ‘he’ or ‘she’. They are base creatures, embodiments of (un)natural forces. Specifically, they are corruption and, as a side-effect, destruction. They have just so enough sentience to feel the most basic sensations… fear, anger and hunger.

arcqe.6734:

Glint actually turned against Kral due to her ability to see inside the mind of Kral’s enemies, and therefore became empathetic to them.

The dragons are not described as a intelligent, thinking being, but rather a force of nature. Whether or not this is true, the dragons would likely just corrupt someone before they would agree (if they could) to peace.

Why have peace with something when you have the power to stomp it out of existence?

A few corrections based on lore discovered from GW2:

1) Glint was given free will by a powerful spell the forgotten had used. This, combined with her mind-reading abilities, is what allowed her to betray Kralkatorrik.

2) Zhaitan is repeatedly stated to be showing intelligence in his attacks. Instead of mindlessly pushing forward, he strikes at the three Orders’ main base. He starts laying trap after trap for the Pact as well. He is very much intelligent. Furthermore, Jormag’s described as actively promising powers to those he would corrupt before corrupting them – that is to say, he’s winning them over with coercion before corrupting them. A mindless beast of nature can’t do that.

Besides, Edge of Destiny showed that Kralkatorrik could rethink strategies during a fight he was losing.

The notion that the Elder Dragons weren’t intelligent was from the perspective of the races of Tyria, which had not yet seen any intelligence from them or their minions until the time of GW2, outside the Sons of Svanir who weren’t yet corrupted and some certain champions like Morgus Lethe (but even then he was fairly predictable and not outright tied to the ED).

Despite this, however, all Elder Dragons seem intent to corrupted everything.

Yet developers kept saying through developement that they aren´t intelligent atleast in the sense we understand it.

Zhaitan has many champions who could be doing the brainwork for him, one even being a boss you kill when you defend Lions arch (after which the attack stops).

In gw1 when svanir was corrupted according to Jora they only felt cold and ancient power, not a sentience that persuaded them, just power that Svanir dived into while Jora turned away from it.
Most likely it´s the same case with Sons of svanir, and the promise of power is more of an abastract thing.

I really haven´t read books so i can´t say to which extent it protrays intelligence, but self preservation is very basic need that couses behaviour that can be seen as change of tactics. Also i could be spweing bullkitten on this but that´s what internet is for, eh?

They also said that everything they tell us of the Elder Dragons is of the races’ viewpoint. This came up during an interview where Kralkatorrik was called a she – and a lot of theoretical discussions popped up because of that and the possible connotations. The devs then stepped in and correct themselves, stating that they don’t have genders as the races understand and, I’m not sure if it was at that point or another, that most information on the Elder Dragons that the developers are saying is from the race’s viewpoint so as to avoid spoilers. Though Kralkatorrik was called a “he” by Glint so it’s likely they do have genders (this I bring up to help elaborate on the whole “the interviews match the race’s pre-GW2 plot knowledge”).

Which makes absolute sense, really.

The attack on Lion’s Arch stops because the Pact forces push towards Zhaitan’s doorstep – so he has to divert his forces to Fort Trinity… which fails and they keep pushing further and further into Orr.

In GW1, Jormag’s never felt – just Drakkar, a champion of Jormag. However, in Edge of Destiny it is said that Jormag offers power – or rather, at that point it’s more of the norn who became known as the Sons of Svanir turning to Jormag for power. The line about Jormag offering power before corrupting comes from Khrigar Ripaw in the southeast corner of Frostgorge Sound – he’s among the Pact members who’re dealing with the grawl in the area worshiping the Claw of Jormag as a god.

In Edge of Destiny, Kralkatorrik heads to Glint who had betrayed him (and he knew this). When Snaff entered his mind, he changed his main target to Snaff specifically. When he was unable to block him out any longer, he sent his minions on him. When that didn’t work, he changed methods once more. It’s more than self-preservation. The self-preservation came in at targetting Snaff, not in the three different means of going after him.

Danikat.8537:

It probably sounds crazy but I can’t help wondering if we really need to be fighting the dragons.

As far as I know no one has even tried a diplomatic approach with any of them and it seems to me at least some might be intelligent and rational enough to listen. Glint was one of their champions and she got on fine with the humans, dwarves, forgotten and possibly some other races.

Maybe I’m just biased. I love dragons and I’m always slightly dissapointed when they’re so often just big, scary monsters for the “good guys” to kill.

But I also feel like it’s a genuine mistake humanity has made many times in real life, and all the Tyrian races have made in the past – just because someone is attacking you, even trying to kill you, doesn’t mean your only option is to respond in kind. No one really gained anything by following up the Searing with the Foefire, but it looks like we’re rapidly gaining a lot from a diplomatic solution to the charr/human conflict and I can’t help wondering if it wouldn’t be worth at least trying the same with the dragons.

I wish dragons would be more similar to the Dragons in the Inheritance cycle ^^

1. The Elder Dragons are dragons. When Snaff invaded Kralkatorik’s mind, when he got past all the rage, chaos and power he encountered under it all the mind of a giant lizard. Thats what he gained control of to force Kralkatorik to the ground.

How the EDs went from giant winged lizards to almost elemental forces is anyones guess. Kormir became a god from absorbing Abaddon’s power. Perhaps the ED achieved their current forms from syphoning huge mounts of magic somehow originally.

2. Two traits are often given to the Elder Dragons. One is an emmense hunger. The other is a hatred of anything that is not like them. They are junkies on a god sized level and we are in the way or perhaps even part of their hit.

3. The EDs have never shown any indication of being open to diplomacy. Glint, the champion that turned on her master, chose to fight rather than talk. That would be a good indication, considering she can read minds, that her master isnt open to talking things through.

4. Not every dragon in GW is necessarily evil. Glint had reformed. Her children, where ever they are, might be free from Kralkatorik’s control. There is also the Seaspray dragons who again, may or may not be linked to an ED. There is still the possiblity for freindly dragons out there.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

They also said that everything they tell us of the Elder Dragons is of the races’ viewpoint. This came up during an interview where Kralkatorrik was called a she – and a lot of theoretical discussions popped up because of that and the possible connotations. The devs then stepped in and correct themselves, stating that they don’t have genders as the races understand and, I’m not sure if it was at that point or another, that most information on the Elder Dragons that the developers are saying is from the race’s viewpoint so as to avoid spoilers. Though Kralkatorrik was called a “he” by Glint so it’s likely they do have genders (this I bring up to help elaborate on the whole “the interviews match the race’s pre-GW2 plot knowledge”).

Which makes absolute sense, really.

Humen have a need to associate things with gender, as seen in many religions. Even totaly abstract concepts are assigned a gender (ying and yang for example). It might be that genders associated with them are from the races viewpoints too.
If they really always speak from races viewpoint it´s a bit problematic as it can be used to trump pretty much all theories, since races perception can be oh so wrong in so many occsions.
For example we could use that to refute Zhaitan feeling fear like the characters say many times it feels by saying that it´s just them perceiving reactions as fear when they really are something else totaly.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

The attack on Lion’s Arch stops because the Pact forces push towards Zhaitan’s doorstep – so he has to divert his forces to Fort Trinity… which fails and they keep pushing further and further into Orr.

Nope, that´s how new attacks won´t happen. The initial attack happens way before the pact is even forged. And after the attack on LA risen still control the claw island, but strange enough they don´t launch another attack before the pact is forged and pushes them away. As if they didn´t have intelligent leader to do so. Might also be because there´s not enough of them to do so.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

In GW1, Jormag’s never felt – just Drakkar, a champion of Jormag. However, in Edge of Destiny it is said that Jormag offers power – or rather, at that point it’s more of the norn who became known as the Sons of Svanir turning to Jormag for power. The line about Jormag offering power before corrupting comes from Khrigar Ripaw in the southeast corner of Frostgorge Sound – he’s among the Pact members who’re dealing with the grawl in the area worshiping the Claw of Jormag as a god.

I´ll have to see what that npc has to say. Though i´m still of the mind that the promise of power is more of an abstract thing that Norn themselves have establsihed or again work of a Champion.
It´s also said that Jormag himself slept under that lake too, so it´s open to interpretation which ones in the work there. Also, given that Drakkar is a champion, who have been said to posses more of a traditional kind intelligence, it´s strange that not even it would use more elaborate methods of corruption. Might also be that because they were sleeping they weren´t able to.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

In Edge of Destiny, Kralkatorrik heads to Glint who had betrayed him (and he knew this). When Snaff entered his mind, he changed his main target to Snaff specifically. When he was unable to block him out any longer, he sent his minions on him. When that didn’t work, he changed methods once more. It’s more than self-preservation. The self-preservation came in at targetting Snaff, not in the three different means of going after him.

Still could fall under self preservation in my opinion. Minions being extension of dragon himself ofcourse he would utilise them like any other bodypart, like bringing hand up to protect head. I don´t know what the last change of plan was, but even still i could count this under selfpreservation, unless ofcourse it was some really elaborate strategy.

Lutinz.6915:

1. The Elder Dragons are dragons. When Snaff invaded Kralkatorik’s mind, when he got past all the rage, chaos and power he encountered under it all the mind of a giant lizard. Thats what he gained control of to force Kralkatorik to the ground.

After having said all that i´m starting to attribute more intelligence on Elder dragons than i previously thought they had, but i still don´t think it´s above the level of dumb as a ettin or actualy even below that. I think it´s too different kind of intelligence to compare to human intelligence.

Lore is fun we could argue allday both bringing valid points but at the end of the day we still wouldn´t have the truth as it can change on a whim of the writers.

It could also be that the dragons don’t treat the races of Tyria to their intelligence because they don’t find it worth the effort. The undead didn’t start to use tactics until the Pact put up a decent challenge. Even Claw Island wasn’t really a big battle for the undead, it was merely part of the slow but steady expansion of their conquest. That’s probably why they didn’t push on the Lion’s Arch straight away either.

As for wheter the all dragons are evil…I’m not convinced they are. They’re more like forces of nature, trying to satisfy their hunger. Glint may have been a champion of a dragon, but from the Edge of Destiny Novel, it is clear that’s from a time when dragons ruled Tyria. The elder dragons may have been noble back then, or maybe there were no lesser races to devour yet. There’s no conclusive evidence in the novel that Glint was evil. Not unless you decide the elder dragons and anyone who helps them is.

“It’s not that the Dragons aren’t interested in negotiating. It’s that they are not capable of realizing that there is anything else in the world to negotiate with. This is their world and always has been. There are other Dragons, yes, but the world is just big enough for six. Perhaps there have been titanic struggles between Them, great cataclysms that reshaped the entire globe, but those are long past, and now there is only the ancient cycle of feeding and sleep, feeding and sleep. Sometimes, when they awaken, they find their world crawling with parasites. Sometimes not. If the parasites are bothersome, why, then they will be exterminated. But they are not a cause for concern.

Negotiate? Would you negotiate with bacteria? Millions of them may live and die all around you. You won’t even notice them unless they make you sick. If they make you sick, why, your defenses are powerful. White blood cells seek out and destroy bacteria with a single-mind obsessiveness that would appear like intelligence, if a bacterium were capable of reason. So it is with the Dragons. We are the bacteria. The Risen, the Branded, the Frozen, the Destroyers… those are the leukocytes and t-cells that wipe out the plague before it can grow into a threat.

This time, the parasites are strong. Alarmingly strong. But the fall of Zhaitan shows merely that it was careless, weak, or both. The Dragons do not care for it, will not mourn it. There is simply more food for them, now. They are stronger as a result, and they are not careless.

Sally forth, little bacteria. Perhaps they, too, shall succumb to your infection. But remember, the Dragons are not waiting for you. They have barely noticed you. But they are ready for you."

- This message from your local Elder Dragon brought to you courtesy of the Foundation for Draconic Communication and Migraine Headaches

I’ve asked myself the same question that the OP is asking. The only answer I can come up with is that eventually, the ED will use up enough of the existing magic that their hunger cannot be supported and go back into hibernation until magic builds back up to a saturation point that once again awakens the ED from hibernation.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

arcqe.6734:

Glint actually turned against Kral due to her ability to see inside the mind of Kral’s enemies, and therefore became empathetic to them.

The dragons are not described as a intelligent, thinking being, but rather a force of nature. Whether or not this is true, the dragons would likely just corrupt someone before they would agree (if they could) to peace.

Why have peace with something when you have the power to stomp it out of existence?

A few corrections based on lore discovered from GW2:

1) Glint was given free will by a powerful spell the forgotten had used. This, combined with her mind-reading abilities, is what allowed her to betray Kralkatorrik.

I thought that was the case, but I was tentative on putting that there given that i couldn’t find any source to site.

Strang.8170:

If they really always speak from races viewpoint it´s a bit problematic as it can be used to trump pretty much all theories, since races perception can be oh so wrong in so many occsions.

For example we could use that to refute Zhaitan feeling fear like the characters say many times it feels by saying that it´s just them perceiving reactions as fear when they really are something else totaly.

Not everything can be refuted that way, since a lot of things are deduced from studying them intently – especially the later discoveries in the personal story regarding their nature. The fear thing, certainly, can be debunked in such a manner since we don’t actually hear Zhaitan say “I’m afraid!” or the like. It just roars whenever something bad happens to its strongest allies – which could be frustration and anger as much as fear.

Strang.8170:

Nope, that´s how new attacks won´t happen. The initial attack happens way before the pact is even forged. And after the attack on LA risen still control the claw island, but strange enough they don´t launch another attack before the pact is forged and pushes them away. As if they didn´t have intelligent leader to do so. Might also be because there´s not enough of them to do so.

Actually they did – after the initial light attack on Lion’s Arch, a larger attack force were sent to each of the Orders’ main bases. So it would seem Lion’s Arch wasn’t the target, per say, but Bloodtide Coast, Lornar’s Pass, and Gendarran Fields were. And Claw Island was the biggest obstacle between Orr and there. But indications are also given that Lion’s Arch is on a complete defensive. While no dragon assaulted Lion’s Arch, it’s likely that Zhaitan was gathering minions on Claw Island before a full assault on LA – a lot of minions had to leave Claw Island to then attack the three orders, after all.

Furthermore, immediately after the attack on Claw Island is the light attack on Lion’s Arch, and immediately after that is the attack on the three orders’ HQs. Those story steps are fairly fast paced, it feels like. The only slowness is the gathering allies bit which, during that time is when Zhaitan’s sending his forces to the HQs (they just didn’t reach there yet).

Strang.8170:

It´s also said that Jormag himself slept under that lake too, so it´s open to interpretation which ones in the work there.

No, it’s not. There was a bit of a controversy because it was incorrectly interpreted as that being the case due to the original concept and idea was Jormag being under a lake, but that was changed during development and it was never said Jormag was under Drakkar Lake. There was a norn NPC in Hoelbrak which falsely mentions this though, but that lake is not big enough for Jormag to fit in, especially under Drakkar who reaches the bottom of it. Jormag has been confirmed to have been hibernating north of the EN map.

Strang.8170:

Still could fall under self preservation in my opinion. Minions being extension of dragon himself ofcourse he would utilise them like any other bodypart, like bringing hand up to protect head. I don´t know what the last change of plan was, but even still i could count this under selfpreservation, unless ofcourse it was some really elaborate strategy.

First he tried corrupting the area, then he had to fight Glint (during which he turned into a literal sandstorm), then with the lauret on him Snaff entered his mind and was almost corrupted (Zojja snapped Snaff out of his trance, saving him). Snaff re-enters Kralkatorrik’s mind and is proving a minor neusance and Kralkatorrik tries once more to corrupt him mentally, but fails. Given this, he then sends his minions after Snaff specifically (whereas before they were just out to kill those fighting him – e.g., the whole of Destiny’s Edge). Since they can’t get anywhere near Snaff thanks to the rest of Destiny’s Edge, whom the minions are now trying to bypass instead of kill. With that failing, Kralkatorrik starts going after Snaff physically himself.

Also, minions are not an extension of the Elder Dragons’ bodies per say. There is a connection between them, but it appears to be a “shared magic and connected mind” situation. A hive mind and magic scenario with the Elder Dragons being the base/core of it. I view the minions being more of having an internal headset that the Elder Dragon’s constantly issuing orders from, as a comparison.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Not everything can be refuted that way, since a lot of things are deduced from studying them intently – especially the later discoveries in the personal story regarding their nature. The fear thing, certainly, can be debunked in such a manner since we don’t actually hear Zhaitan say “I’m afraid!” or the like. It just roars whenever something bad happens to its strongest allies – which could be frustration and anger as much as fear.

False info, interpreted wrong as the subject is to alien to comprehend. Flimsy refutal but anyhow.
And then there´s the issue that it can´t be said if it´s Zhaitan himself or just his champions that are in control of situations, as it has a myriad of them.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Actually they did – after the initial light attack on Lion’s Arch, a larger attack force were sent to each of the Orders’ main bases. So it would seem Lion’s Arch wasn’t the target, per say, but Bloodtide Coast, Lornar’s Pass, and Gendarran Fields were. And Claw Island was the biggest obstacle between Orr and there. But indications are also given that Lion’s Arch is on a complete defensive. While no dragon assaulted Lion’s Arch, it’s likely that Zhaitan was gathering minions on Claw Island before a full assault on LA – a lot of minions had to leave Claw Island to then attack the three orders, after all.

Furthermore, immediately after the attack on Claw Island is the light attack on Lion’s Arch, and immediately after that is the attack on the three orders’ HQs. Those story steps are fairly fast paced, it feels like. The only slowness is the gathering allies bit which, during that time is when Zhaitan’s sending his forces to the HQs (they just didn’t reach there yet).

Aguess it depends on storyline but in my version the attack on LA was pretty massive, more so than the subsequent attacks on the orders. And now that you mention the dragon, then yeah, there indeed was another champion on the island, which could´ve organized the attacks on orders.
So basicly…..
….i kinda forgot where i was going with this…

Konig Des Todes.2086:

No, it’s not. There was a bit of a controversy because it was incorrectly interpreted as that being the case due to the original concept and idea was Jormag being under a lake, but that was changed during development and it was never said Jormag was under Drakkar Lake. There was a norn NPC in Hoelbrak which falsely mentions this though, but that lake is not big enough for Jormag to fit in, especially under Drakkar who reaches the bottom of it. Jormag has been confirmed to have been hibernating north of the EN map.

Well that reinforces the point that even if a Champion doesn´t use any other means of corruption than jus purely being there and pushing power to other beings, it seems that it indeed Promise of power Sons of svanir are talking about is not literal promise. It indeed gives them more power if they go through corruption, and that is common knowledge so it could verywell be called a promise of power.
Seems i had false info on this, thanks for correcting me. Where was it confirmed though?

Konig Des Todes.2086:

First he tried corrupting the area, then he had to fight Glint (during which he turned into a literal sandstorm), then with the lauret on him Snaff entered his mind and was almost corrupted (Zojja snapped Snaff out of his trance, saving him). Snaff re-enters Kralkatorrik’s mind and is proving a minor neusance and Kralkatorrik tries once more to corrupt him mentally, but fails. Given this, he then sends his minions after Snaff specifically (whereas before they were just out to kill those fighting him – e.g., the whole of Destiny’s Edge). Since they can’t get anywhere near Snaff thanks to the rest of Destiny’s Edge, whom the minions are now trying to bypass instead of kill. With that failing, Kralkatorrik starts going after Snaff physically himself.

Also, minions are not an extension of the Elder Dragons’ bodies per say. There is a connection between them, but it appears to be a “shared magic and connected mind” situation. A hive mind and magic scenario with the Elder Dragons being the base/core of it. I view the minions being more of having an internal headset that the Elder Dragon’s constantly issuing orders from, as a comparison.

I´d say all that falls under selfpreservation, it´s not all that elaborate. See threath and attack it, another threath appears, react to it, uncorruptable means kill it, first method inefficient, use another, and then another.
Doesn´t matter if it´s hive mind, connection, or being part of. Dragons have been using minions god knows how many thousands of years, to them minions are like a part of body, naturaly they know how to use them in many different manners.

From the evidence offered I would say it could go either way as far as intelligence is concerned.
I personally think they are likely highly intelligent, if in an alien way. After all it’s basically a giant carnivorous lizard with a severe case of the munchies. It wakes up corrupts the immediate area gaining all the memories of those it corrupts (in the case of zhaitan at least) and proceeds to establish a ‘nesting’ area. Then it creates its’ champions to manage its’ hive, its’ resources and expand its’ area of influence while the ED itself stays mostly stationary.
This leads me to believe that they are more concerned with each other than with the other ‘lesser’ races, instead veiwing the other races as a source of food and a way to expand their respective domains in relation to one another.
Now after we kill Zhaitan, the EDs might take a new look at us but i’m not sure diplomacy is an option.. would make for a dull game heh.

Ickara.8725:

This leads me to believe that they are more concerned with each other than with the other ‘lesser’ races, instead veiwing the other races as a source of food and a way to expand their respective domains in relation to one another.

When you say it like that it sound like an echo of how humanity has veiwed the real world up until now.

Half Tooth.1867:

Ickara.8725:

This leads me to believe that they are more concerned with each other than with the other ‘lesser’ races, instead veiwing the other races as a source of food and a way to expand their respective domains in relation to one another.

When you say it like that it sound like an echo of how humanity has veiwed the real world up until now.

well more or less yeah. I guess you can see echos between what the dragons in game are doing and what humanity naturally does in real life. After a certain strength is gained in relation to another being you see yourself as being greater than them by your right of strength or birth. Then they become only tools to further your own means.
You can see this in how we treat animals and our environment, how we treat others from weaker countries or how the rich treat the poor.

It would only be natural for something as strong as the elder dragons to think of ‘lesser’ races as nothing more than a resource to be used as they see fit.

From what I have come to understand is that the Elder Dragons intelligence itself is something we cannot comprehend or grasp. The dragons seem to hibernate, awaken, feed, and back to hibernate and go through this within large periods of time unless killed. Dragons going through their natural lives and adapting themselves to meet the already adapted lesser races, like how the Elder Dragons seem to posses some sort of element or unique power in them (Jormag-ice, Kralkatorric-lightning(or whatever it is, it evades me), etc.) to just stay ahead of everyone and stay as the dominant race that they are meant to be viewed as.