Guild Wars 2

Something that has been rattling inside my brain with the speculation about the Pale Tree’s connection to Mordremoth is the role of champions and whether or not it’s possible to classify the Pale Tree as one. We know for sure that Vinewrath is a champion of Mordremoth just like Tequatl or the Eyes of Zhaitan are champions of Zhaitan. What is unclear to me is what does/can a champion do and what does/can an Elder Dragon do?

Are champions created, corrupted, or both?

I’m not entirely familiar with all of the champions. Are there any champions that started as something else and were then corrupted by the Elder Dragon to become a champion? Or are all champions created “from scratch” by the Elder Dragon and unleashed upon the world?

Are champions given free will?

The Eyes of Zhaitan can speak and taunt us. They are generals for the Undead army and appear to be the ones calling the shots. They appear intelligent and sentient. But Tequatl seems to operate as a simple force of destruction. Both act in the interests of Zhaitan, but is that a choice or a primitive/programmed desire?

What is the role of a champion?

Do we have evidence that different champions of the same Elder Dragon have different purposes (not just location-based purposes, but actual different responsibilities)? Do all champions exist just to gather magical energy, or do they serve more purpose than just feeding their master?

Do Elder Dragons, champions, or both create/corrupt minions?

With the speculation about the Pale Tree, it makes me wonder if maybe all minions are created/corrupted by champions rather than directly by the Elder Dragons themselves. Are there examples of champions actually creating/corrupting minions, and likewise for the Elder Dragons themselves?

How much of the devastation of Dry Top/Silverwastes is Vinewrath’s doing?

Vinewrath appears to be stationary, but there are thorny roots across these entire zones. There are also roots very far across Tyria as we saw with the destruction of the waypoints. How much of this is Vinewrath and how much is Mordremoth?

How involved are Elder Dragons?

I am not particularly familiar with the happenings of the Arah instance. Based on what we know, how involved was Zhaitan in the war on the ground? Does it seem like Elder Dragons just spawn champions and let them do the work? Or do Elder Dragons take it upon themselves to sow destruction?

I think the Vinewrath is part of the dragon.

• Any of the above. Champions are defined by power and intelligence, which in turn are determined, according to Gorr and Trahearne, by how much corruption is put into a would-be minion.
• No, but having more intelligence does allow for more potential actions. They serve their dragon without question due to lack of free will nonetheless.
• They do hold different specializations at times, but this is only seen for risen. Nothing says other dragon champions have unique specializations. Though Vinewrath may in regards to being a minion factory. Overall, their purpose is to lead the dragon’s armies.
• Both. It is even possible for a champion to make another champion (see Drakkar and Svanir). But ultimately, the Elder Dragon is the source of the corruption – champions merely spread it further better than lesser minions.
• Unknown. Those giant vine arches in Silverwastes are Vinewrath’s doing though.
• Changes from Dragon to Dragon. Zhaitan was fairly distant, sitting on his throne while minions did everything (supposedly). Taimi speculated that the large vines going after the waypoint network and destroying forts across Tyria was Mordremoth himself. Jormag personally fought waves of norn and the Spirits of the Wild in the past. Kralkatorrik personally slew his traitorous champion, Glint but has otherwise been unheard.

Fantastic answer! Interesting note about Drakkar. Thank you for your answers! I wanted to thank you sooner, but the forums have been wonky.

The giant vines being the doing of Vinewrath gives perspective on the capabilities and size of Mordremoth’s champions in comparison to the champions of the other Elder Dragons (at least those I am personally aware of).

We know Zhaitan itself is gigantic (and is even larger in lore than it appeared in-game), but Vinewrath is just a champion and can nearly span an entire zone with its huge vines. With speculation about the Pale Tree having a relation to Mordremoth, the Pale Tree’s massive size would compare to Vinewrath’s in also being “zone sized.”

Also, the example of Kralkatorrik slaying its champion is very similar to Mordremoth’s targeted attack on the Pale Tree. Of course, several important figures were in attendance that day, so the attack may not have been specifically targeted at the Pale Tree.

Koviko.3248:

Also, the example of Kralkatorrik slaying its champion is very similar to Mordremoth’s targeted attack on the Pale Tree. Of course, several important figures were in attendance that day, so the attack may not have been specifically targeted at the Pale Tree.

Mordy isn’t full awakened yet, so I’m sure he’d have been more hands on (possibly). Of course some how I imagine Mordy to be physically rooted to the ground through, so I don’t imagine he’s particularly mobile or at least if he were to move he’d cause massive damage.

The thing I don’t understand about the Vinewrath is why if we kill the champions it dies.

CureForLiving.5360:

Mordy isn’t full awakened yet, so I’m sure he’d have been more hands on (possibly). Of course some how I imagine Mordy to be physically rooted to the ground through, so I don’t imagine he’s particularly mobile or at least if he were to move he’d cause massive damage.

That’s what I’m kinda thinking as well. Though, I’m somewhat hoping they’ll go with an almost evil Yggdrasil design. Its root extending into the Dream and possible other places. It would also make an interesting dungeon/raid design having players having to work their way up Mordremoth itself to kill it. All the while having to deal with hallucinations from its mental powers and the Mordum versions of the wurm, eagle, and the stags.

Underdark.3726

The thing I don’t understand about the Vinewrath is why if we kill the champions it dies.

Energetic connection maybe? The Vinewrath’s life force could be connected to all the different minions it creates, but it most strongly connected to it’s own champs.

Canach: No! Cease your attacks! I feel a strong energetic connection between us and those constructs.
Newborn: (scream)
Vorpp: Oh! You noticed! We’ve learned that your kind’s life force does wonders for our golem’s power levels!

Koviko.3248

We know Zhaitan itself is gigantic (and is even larger in lore than it appeared in-game),

It wasn’t as large are it was originally suppose to be, but it was still probably the largest creature we’ve seen ingame so far. But if Taimi’s theory turns out to be true, the one where all the vines we’ve seen taking over zones and areas are just extensions of Mordremoth itself, I think it could be safe to assume that it’s possibly going to be the largest creature Tyria will ever see.

Erukk.1408:

Koviko.3248

We know Zhaitan itself is gigantic (and is even larger in lore than it appeared in-game),

It wasn’t as large are it was originally suppose to be, but it was still probably the largest creature we’ve seen ingame so far. But if Taimi’s theory turns out to be true, the one where all the vines we’ve seen taking over zones and areas are just extensions of Mordremoth itself, I think it could be safe to assume that it’s possibly going to be the largest creature Tyria will ever see.

Mordy comes off as kinda being like a evil (and more dragon-y) version of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pando_ . Who knows maybe the Vinewrath is also physically connected to it.

Underdark.3726:

The thing I don’t understand about the Vinewrath is why if we kill the champions it dies.

My PoV is that it doesn’t actually die, but makes you think it can be killed by killing some champions.

Erukk.1408:

But if Taimi’s theory turns out to be true, the one where all the vines we’ve seen taking over zones and areas are just extensions of Mordremoth itself, I think it could be safe to assume that it’s possibly going to be the largest creature Tyria will ever see.

To think of it, that reminds of a fungus colony somewhere that spans an entire forest and is technically the same organism.

Ascimator.6735:

Erukk.1408:

But if Taimi’s theory turns out to be true, the one where all the vines we’ve seen taking over zones and areas are just extensions of Mordremoth itself, I think it could be safe to assume that it’s possibly going to be the largest creature Tyria will ever see.

To think of it, that reminds of a fungus colony somewhere that spans an entire forest and is technically the same organism.

The way Vinewrath “dies” is that you first see a flash of magic burn out and then it disintegrates into the earth. Maybe what we are seeing is Vinewrath run out of magic and become completely exhausted. It doesn’t seem to be able to hold itself together without that magical energy.

Underdark.3726:

The thing I don’t understand about the Vinewrath is why if we kill the champions it dies.

It doesn’t. Talk to the NPCs in the area just after beating the boss. The Vinewrath retreats and the Pact knows this.

I paid attention after the fight was over and Sergeant Khades (a Sylvari, if that makes a difference) walks up to Vinewrath’s plant cage and attempts to burn through it so they can finish him off. He tries for about a minute or so, shrugs, and walks away.

Assuming Anet wants us to use our imagination and make inferences based on his emotes: He assumes he can burn through to Vinewrath but it turns out that Vinewrath’s foliage barrier is not flammable. At this point he’s run out of ideas—being the Flamethrower guy—and gives up. He walks back to the rest of the other Pact members, but there’s no further RP (whether or not this is intended, I’m unsure).

Considering the limitations of the game engine, it’s also possible that Vinewrath’s “disintegration” was not meant to be literal and just the easiest way to depict it detracting with the game engine. That, or what we killed was not Vinewrath itself, but rather just its… flower?

I’ll pay more attention to the rest of the RP next time I go in. Khades particularly caught my eye because he was Sylvari, so I watched him closely.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Underdark.3726:

The thing I don’t understand about the Vinewrath is why if we kill the champions it dies.

It doesn’t. Talk to the NPCs in the area just after beating the boss. The Vinewrath retreats and the Pact knows this.

oh, thanks for the info. I guess I never paid attention cos of the frustration for not getting a single coat box yet… :s

Really? I did the Vinewrath three times and got four coat boxes… Twice the first go (fought one champ, Mangler), and one the second go (fought Dark Wing), and one the third go (fought Beekeeper, then Dark Wing due to slowness of north lane).

Figures that the RNG gods only smile on me after I lose interest in the game’s story.

I finished the Coat collection before any of the others. That one came very quickly.

I was unable to speak to the NPCs after Vinewrath. I’m assuming the ones to speak to are the three Sergeants, correct (Asura Meppsi and Charr Attirah)? None of them would respond to me after their RP.

What do they say?

Basically it was various ways of saying “we made the Vinewrath retreat, a job well done!” – the sylvari also said this once he finished his rounds as the generic NPCs set explosives.

since the patch i’ve done at least 2 vinewraths event per day. Got only the one coat box that you are getting after the first run.
Still missing 2 husks and 1 teragriffs parts as well…

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Basically it was various ways of saying “we made the Vinewrath retreat, a job well done!” – the sylvari also said this once he finished his rounds as the generic NPCs set explosives.

Ah, yes. I just had to wait for Khades to finish his RP and then for them to stare at each other for a minute.

• Sergeant Attirah: “We did it. Sent that Mordrem Vinewrath running. Good work, soldier.”
• Sergeant Meppsi: “Success! The Mordrem Vinewrath’s retreated! Excellent work.”
• Sergeant Khades: “I’m a Sylvari and I belong to the Dragon, now.” Or he said “The Mordrem Vinewrath’s retreated. You did well out there.”

Koviko.3248:

Khades particularly caught my eye because he was Sylvari, so I watched him closely.

That’s racist man… shame on you.