What is the Tyrian concept of science?

What is the Tyrian concept of science?

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

Tyria is a land of magic. Recently it underwent a technological revolution. We’ve seen developments such as alchemy but I myself am unsure how it corresponds to a scientific body of knowledge. Is alchemy chemistry? Chemistry and magic? Incomparable?

Before the technological revolution did people learn of physics through mesmer magic? Is the average citizen of tyria knowledgeable of science at all?

Or am I assuming too much? We don’t even know if they have the water cycle.

“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
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Posted by: Vlad.1739

Vlad.1739

You are right in the fact that due to magic existing Tyria has had little reason to advance technology. The Charr not wanting to rely on magic spurred an industrial revolution. Tyria has a woking understanding in these areas.

-Astronomy
-physics and magic
-mists
-metalurgy
-no idication of reaching modern age technologies

Alchemy can refer to potion making both chemistry and magic.

Average citizen in guild wars is probably not that smart humans are probably the least educated. Sylvari seem to have a standardized education from the pale tree. Norn they are norn they do not actively seek to produce modern technlogy or advanced magitech as a society Norn are educated by the family and possibly seek it out if thats what their legend to be based on. Charr have standardised education system and most likely includes engineering lessons for some Charr. Asura have colleges average asura probably most educated.

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Posted by: Ehecatl.9172

Ehecatl.9172

In Tyria magic is a natural part of the world, thus the study of magic would be considered a science in and of itself. This is the view that asura take, and they are easily the most scientifically advanced society on Tyria.

Alchemy is chemistry. The fact some alchemists might use magical energies or materials with magic innate to it to (Like the fire breath of a drake, which is a normal animal by Tyrian standards) get more magical results is just using the resources available in the world of Tyria.

The only society that utilize technology without magic is the three Charr Legions. This isn’t because they view the advancement of magical knowledge as not a part of science as a whole but because they have a distrust of magic and actively choose to avoid using magical energy as a fuel source for their machines the way asura do.

I don’t think anyone in Tyria would view the pursuit of knowledge concerning the arcane as non-scientific. Perhaps a different field of science but still science.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

There has been NPCs talking about studying weather, animals, plants, life and death, rates of decay, astronomy and astrology, metalurgy, chemistry (not only via alchemy which is a mix of traditional chemistry and magic – which is the view of traditional alchemy in fact – but also in things like blackpowder), anatomy (they even have surgeons), herbal medicines, and even studied electricity, radiation, and more.

Like Ehecatl said, the study of magic in many cases is still a study in science for Tyrians – especially asura and hyleks who focus their study largely on magitech and alchemy respectively.

The first heart in Metrica Province has you fixing golems – if you’re on a non-asura, rather than technobabble the dialogue for fixing them is about wires and energy flow. It’s just that rather than electricity, they run on some magical source (or magically generated electricity).

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Embolism.8106

Embolism.8106

The “average citizenry” is very different depending on what race you’re talking about. The asura in general seem very knowledgeable about the sciences. Yes it’s a different form of science from the real world, but the results are similar if not superior (computers, artificial intelligence/sentience, flight, teleportation, directed-energy weapons, etc.).

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Average citizen in guild wars is probably not that smart humans are probably the least educated. Sylvari seem to have a standardized education from the pale tree. Norn they are norn they do not actively seek to produce modern technlogy or advanced magitech as a society Norn are educated by the family and possibly seek it out if thats what their legend to be based on. Charr have standardised education system and most likely includes engineering lessons for some Charr. Asura have colleges average asura probably most educated.

Humans, I think, are fairly variable. Nobles at least seem to get an education, although how practical that education may be is another question (“I must have skipped out the day we covered siege warfare between my etiquette and dance classes”). We don’t really know what there is for the lower classes, although it’s possible that the queen, local community leaders, and/or priests (especially of Kormir) might set up something for those not otherwise available to afford an education.

Norn are probably entirely informal in nature, getting their learning from their family and homestead, so what they learn will probably be determined by the interests of those around them. They do seem to have an apprenticing system for those who are old enough, however (Ceara and Beigath, for instance) and it’s plausible that some lucky norn children might get someone who’s decided to make their legend through exceptional teaching. (Although I don’t recall meeting any such in-game.) The shamans of the Spirits of the Wild also seem like they play some role in the instruction of children, when they’re around, but again, their teaching is probably going to be centred on the interests of their spirit.

In Tyria magic is a natural part of the world, thus the study of magic would be considered a science in and of itself. This is the view that asura take, and they are easily the most scientifically advanced society on Tyria.

Alchemy is chemistry. The fact some alchemists might use magical energies or materials with magic innate to it to (Like the fire breath of a drake, which is a normal animal by Tyrian standards) get more magical results is just using the resources available in the world of Tyria.

The only society that utilize technology without magic is the three Charr Legions. This isn’t because they view the advancement of magical knowledge as not a part of science as a whole but because they have a distrust of magic and actively choose to avoid using magical energy as a fuel source for their machines the way asura do.

I don’t think anyone in Tyria would view the pursuit of knowledge concerning the arcane as non-scientific. Perhaps a different field of science but still science.

There was an interview a while back where the topic of how asura and humans view magic was raised. Asura approach it logically, as a science like any other, while humans take a more intuitive approach and treat it as an art. This probably explains a lot of the differences between the magic of asura and humans. (There’s an example of an exchange between an asura mesmer and a human elementalist in Sea of Sorrows, although it’s unclear there whether the distinction is one of different racial approaches or different professions. It does, however, take the form of the asura not understanding what the human is doing because it doesn’t fit her formulas, while the human is encouraging here to just feel her way through it – given that human mesmers are traditionally associated with the arts, it seems unlikely that mesmers are the hyper-logical ones among human spellcasters.)

Generally, the asura approach seems to work better for them as a society (all that technomagic), but there are indications that the human approach might have its advantages (humans are associated with magic items that don’t have the technomagic look that asura stuff does and thus is more easily disguised; humans possibly have a higher potential to perform great feats of magic without the assistance of magic items).

I don’t think we’ve had any indication of how the other races view it. I would guess that sylvari and norn also treat it more as an art, feeling their way through the magic rather than studying it as a science, with the sylvari likely having learned magic while still in the Dream and the norn trusting in the guidance of the Spirits of the Wild. Charr I could see wanting to break down every spell into its component parts if they can, to ensure that magic is regarded simply as a tool and nothing to build up an aura of mysticism over.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

What is the Tyrian concept of science?

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

There has been NPCs talking about studying weather, animals, plants, life and death, rates of decay, astronomy and astrology, metalurgy, chemistry (not only via alchemy which is a mix of traditional chemistry and magic – which is the view of traditional alchemy in fact – but also in things like blackpowder), anatomy (they even have surgeons), herbal medicines, and even studied electricity, radiation, and more.

Like Ehecatl said, the study of magic in many cases is still a study in science for Tyrians – especially asura and hyleks who focus their study largely on magitech and alchemy respectively.

The first heart in Metrica Province has you fixing golems – if you’re on a non-asura, rather than technobabble the dialogue for fixing them is about wires and energy flow. It’s just that rather than electricity, they run on some magical source (or magically generated electricity).

In physics and chemistry: What do we know of their core concepts? My assumption is that they have no atoms only ether +magic.

  • Do they have entropy?
  • Do the stars in their universe have similar distances to our own?
  • Ice and water seem to be related by not synonymous in this world, there are spirits behind the process of frost, do they complement or cause the process?
  • Is the ice made by necromancers water that is frozen, or something else?

On biology and medicine: When Marjory was hurt, Rox seemed to be the only one knowledgeable of battlefield magic that heals despite Brahman being a Guardian.

  • Has the knowledge of first aid been delayed by the existence of monk and their instant heals to the point only rangers and engineers are competent?
  • We have seen identical twins and medelian characters to the point one can assume something similar to DNA exists in all creatures. Yet we see no humans living thousands of years despite aging being a form of genetic decay. Is the process of death not solely biological, and if not how much power is given to the soul?

I think these are enough questions for now

“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.

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What is the Tyrian concept of science?

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Posted by: Rhaegar.1203

Rhaegar.1203

We only separate the concept of Magic and Science because in our world, “Magic” does not exist.

But who’s to say that the study of Magic is not the study of Science for Tyrians? Tyria is a world where Magic is abundant (at least in the current state on the ED cycle), and it is only natural for Asura, Charr and Humans to study the energies.

Arthur C Clarke said once that “Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic”; electricity or magnetism must be very weird for a man of the Middle Ages in our planet, and he would probably call it magic and/or the work of the Devil.

On another point, I disagree that Humans are the least educated. There are many, many, many Human scholars. It’s just that Human farmers and herders are far more common, and as such, farmhands and workers care little about aetheric currents, and meta-magical gizmos. They care about the next rainy season and mating habits of prize-winning hogs.

What is the Tyrian concept of science?

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Posted by: Ehecatl.9172

Ehecatl.9172

Concerning your biology and astronomy questions Daniel, unless it’s expressly stated as different from our world you have to assume it’s the same as ours. That’s how fantasy works.

No writer is going to go out of their way to list all the ways their European Fantasy setting is similar to our world. That would be a near infinite list of facts and would take forever to explain every similarity. It’s expected that the reader assume things are the same unless outright stated not to be.

We are never told that people poop out of their kitten, but it’s reasonable to assume they do.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

In physics and chemistry: What do we know of their core concepts? My assumption is that they have no atoms only ether +magic.

I wouldn’t be so quick to say they don’t have atoms. Magic and ether are far from the same thing as atoms. Now, them knowing about atoms and molecules is an entirely different matter.

  • Do they have entropy?
  • Do the stars in their universe have similar distances to our own?
  • Ice and water seem to be related by not synonymous in this world, there are spirits behind the process of frost, do they complement or cause the process?
  • Is the ice made by necromancers water that is frozen, or something else?
  • Unknowable.
  • Hinted to be a case of both “yes and no” – the Mists kind of distorts things in this matter, and we know that there are stars in the skies of the Mists.
  • You turn down the temperature, and water turns to ice. No magic involved even in Tyria. There’s no spirits behind the process of frost – you’re mistaking the ranger spirits as the only method of freezing of Tyria, but this isn’t so. It’s more of a case of “some nature spirits are capable of freezing” rather than “freezing is caused by some nature spirits”.
  • Magical ice – and other elements – are highly questionable due to lack of Anet going into the finer points of things.

On biology and medicine: When Marjory was hurt, Rox seemed to be the only one knowledgeable of battlefield magic that heals despite Brahman being a Guardian.

Marjory talking about Rox’s “battlefield magic” is a joke – a jest. Most likely, Rox just knew first aid procedures and was able to stabilize Marjory without magic. Rox doesn’t show signs of being able to do magic – even as a ranger. Braham was likely too distracted, what with a broken leg, and his show of magic has been more of “bashing things” and the occasional shield rather than healing.

  • Has the knowledge of first aid been delayed by the existence of monk and their instant heals to the point only rangers and engineers are competent?
  • We have seen identical twins and medelian characters to the point one can assume something similar to DNA exists in all creatures. Yet we see no humans living thousands of years despite aging being a form of genetic decay. Is the process of death not solely biological, and if not how much power is given to the soul?
  • No. Bandaging wounds and using salvants are seen across the game. There are many battlefield areas where we can see wounded individuals wrapped in partial bandages – particularly in the case of Seraph camps.
  • Don’t take character models seriously. I don’t think there is a case of identical twins in the game, actually.

And what do you mean by “we see no humans living thousands of years despite aging being a form of genetic decay” – wouldn’t it be because aging is a form of genetic decay? Why does this even have to be asked? Humans don’t live that long because they age. Nothing magical about that. All races age – and just like with us, some species age faster than humans, and some age slower than humans, and some age at roughly the same time.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

@Konig Genetic decay when monks can revert physical damage? Decay when necromancers can feel decay

If they have atoms then string theory in their universe would actually be ether theory.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Wild_Growth Arlon and Pellam are identical twins, the only difference they have is the length of their hair.

As for your part on Rox, why would she be jesting in that situation? There is no sarcasm in Marjoy’s voice acting. Marjory is always serious or crude in all dialogue she has ever had. Joking is against her character as a noir detective. She would never obscure meaning, especially to Kasmeer. She would use wit or analogy. Battlefield magic is not a pun and when she says this Kasmeer doesn’t chuckle.

Rox used magic. And for some reason Braham couldn’t use magic when wounded by a broken leg. Because of the trait lines and how the devs said it represented real world specializations of magic, I assume that Braham might just suck at healing magic.

“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Responding in order:

  • Being capable of reverting, sensing, or hastening decay doesn’t mean it isn’t there at a natural rate.
  • I’ve never really read into string theory so I cannot comment. I’m sure drax can. What I do know is that ether is mentioned to be the foundation of magic.
  • Never said that there are no twins, but rather that we don’t see any. I don’t count sylvari because they’re dragon minions and dragon minions are known to create clones – especially Modremoth.
  • Marjory doesn’t jest via sarcasm but being facetious. It means making light of a serious situation. People do this to avoid shock or freaking out in overly stressful situations – like almost dying. If you paid attention to Marjory’s dialogue, she actually makes similar comments a lot. Not as sarcasm or being overly witty, but facetious and, on rare occasion, puns.
  • We NEVER see Rox using magic, nor is there any indication that she can. And it goes against common charr mentality for her to do so when she doesn’t have to.
Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

Responding in order:

  • Being capable of reverting, sensing, or hastening decay doesn’t mean it isn’t there at a natural rate.
  • I’ve never really read into string theory so I cannot comment. I’m sure drax can. What I do know is that ether is mentioned to be the foundation of magic.
  • Never said that there are no twins, but rather that we don’t see any. I don’t count sylvari because they’re dragon minions and dragon minions are known to create clones – especially Modremoth.
  • Marjory doesn’t jest via sarcasm but being facetious. It means making light of a serious situation. People do this to avoid shock or freaking out in overly stressful situations – like almost dying. If you paid attention to Marjory’s dialogue, she actually makes similar comments a lot. Not as sarcasm or being overly witty, but facetious and, on rare occasion, puns.
  • We NEVER see Rox using magic, nor is there any indication that she can. And it goes against common charr mentality for her to do so when she doesn’t have to.

No. That is an incorrect use of the word facetious. Being crude is not being facetious. You say there are many examples but I find none.

As for Rox not being able to use nature magic as a ranger I don’t see how you can make the assertion. After all we both assert that Braham does not seem knowledgeable in the healing magics. That only follows if we establish the trait lines as a parodies of mastering aspects of the classes. From that we have no basis to assume what Rox’s abilities are beyond what we have seen her perform. And what we have seen her perform is the healing spring. Which I would hope you agree is magic. We have not seen Braham perform any healing magic beyond the creation of the symbol of faith and the true strike which are both not pure heals, so our assumption on his aptitude is correct it seems.

“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

On Marjory: It’s far more evident in Season 1 and most importantly in the tone that Marjory does have a joking personality behind her serious motto.

As for correct/incorrect use of the word, look up the definition of it. It means to make light of a serious situation. That’s what Marjory was doing when Kasmeer was worried sick about her. She was making light of the situation in order to put Kasmeer (and perhaps herself) at ease – or more ease. She wasn’t blatantly facetious, but that doesn’t mean she wasn’t being facetious.

I actually find that a LOT of people misuse facetious – it wouldn’t be surprising if you see it constantly misused and think that’s the proper usage. Like how people use literally when they mean figuratively.

On Rox: Have you ever seen her cast a nature ritual? No? Neither have I. Nor have I ever seen her cast healing springs. The closest thing to magic I’ve ever seen is some poison cloud looking effect when she uses barrage. But that can easily be explained by her using special arrows.

Just because the PCs can doesn’t mean the NPCs can too. Similarly, just because NPCs can doesn’t mean that PCs can too. Everybody has their own way of specializing into a profession.

We know that guardians are capable healers – Logan is, for example, just as much as he is capable at fighting and shields (despite what mechanics show, this is shown downright in Edge of Destiny – including the healing bit). However, not once does Braham ever use healing magic. We only see him bashing things with his mace, using magic to augment him bashing things with his mace, and on rare occasion creating a shield with his magic.

Similar with Rox and rangers. We know they can use magic, but not once do we ever see Rox using magic. Plus there is no such thing as “battlefield magic” except in the metaphorical sense of being an expert on the battlefield – in this case, first aid.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

What is the Tyrian concept of science?

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

On Marjory: It’s far more evident in Season 1 and most importantly in the tone that Marjory does have a joking personality behind her serious motto.

As for correct/incorrect use of the word, look up the definition of it. It means to make light of a serious situation. That’s what Marjory was doing when Kasmeer was worried sick about her. She was making light of the situation in order to put Kasmeer (and perhaps herself) at ease – or more ease. She wasn’t blatantly facetious, but that doesn’t mean she wasn’t being facetious.

I actually find that a LOT of people misuse facetious – it wouldn’t be surprising if you see it constantly misused and think that’s the proper usage. Like how people use literally when they mean figuratively.

On Rox: Have you ever seen her cast a nature ritual? No? Neither have I. Nor have I ever seen her cast healing springs. The closest thing to magic I’ve ever seen is some poison cloud looking effect when she uses barrage. But that can easily be explained by her using special arrows.

Just because the PCs can doesn’t mean the NPCs can too. Similarly, just because NPCs can doesn’t mean that PCs can too. Everybody has their own way of specializing into a profession.

We know that guardians are capable healers – Logan is, for example, just as much as he is capable at fighting and shields (despite what mechanics show, this is shown downright in Edge of Destiny – including the healing bit). However, not once does Braham ever use healing magic. We only see him bashing things with his mace, using magic to augment him bashing things with his mace, and on rare occasion creating a shield with his magic.

Similar with Rox and rangers. We know they can use magic, but not once do we ever see Rox using magic. Plus there is no such thing as “battlefield magic” except in the metaphorical sense of being an expert on the battlefield – in this case, first aid.

You are still using the word wrong when you describe her general dialogue. Perhaps you would like to use an example of Marjory being facetious before then in the story. Because making light of a serious situation through humor is not the same as calling something battlefield magic unless you can prove that Marjory wasn’t being serious or that it was received as a joke.

Everything after “on rox” in your post is unnecessary because it either makes a point that I agreed with in the post you were replying to or it is just false. We see Rox cast healing spring in any combat instances we have with her. The poison cloud is probably because poison cloud is a devourer skill.

We don’t know what battlefield magic is because we don’t know the classifications of normal magic beyond the bloodstones. But the bits we have heard would point to it being a thing as protection magic is a thing.

“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.

(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

  • I’ve never really read into string theory so I cannot comment. I’m sure drax can. What I do know is that ether is mentioned to be the foundation of magic.

Yes, but considering I’ve been sitting back and watching a certain pattern repeat for the fifth time, I’m not inclined to directly engage with DH.

I doubt string theory has been developed in Tyrian science, however. I’m not aware of any sign that even the asura have performed the experiments that would lead to the development of relativity or quantum mechanics, and thus to an effort to find a theory that unifies the two. Asura have ‘lasers’, which in the real world are based on quantum mechanics, but the asura ‘lasers’ have little in common with real lasers and should probably be thought of simply as generic magic guns.

Mesmers might have some understanding of one or both of relativity and quantum mechanics, if these theories are accurate in Tyria, since they would likely be using them for some of their magic, but they might also simply know what they can do with magic without such detailed awareness of the underpinning physics (there’s no evidence that elementalists naturally develop an awareness of the processes of oxidation and electron flow through using fire and air magic, after all). It’s also possible that neither theory actually applies in Tyria, and their manipulation of time, space, and chaos are products of Tyria’s magic-based physics that do not necessarily run parallel to modern science.

One thing that makes for an interesting observation is that the Mists could well sit in the place of the luminiferous aether that was theorised to be the medium through which light propagates in the late 1800s.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

(edited by draxynnic.3719)

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

  • I’ve never really read into string theory so I cannot comment. I’m sure drax can. What I do know is that ether is mentioned to be the foundation of magic.

Yes, but considering I’ve been sitting back and watching a certain pattern repeat for the fifth time, I’m not inclined to directly engage with DH.

I doubt string theory has been developed in Tyrian science, however. I’m not aware of any sign that even the asura have performed the experiments that would lead to the development of relativity or quantum mechanics, and thus to an effort to find a theory that unifies the two. Asura have ‘lasers’, which in the real world are based on quantum mechanics, but the asura ‘lasers’ have little in common with real lasers and should probably be thought of simply as generic magic guns.

Mesmers might have some understanding of one or both of relativity and quantum mechanics, if these theories are accurate in Tyria, since they would likely be using them for some of their magic, but they might also simply know what they can do with magic without such detailed awareness of the underpinning physics (there’s no evidence that elementalists naturally develop an awareness of the processes of oxidation and electron flow through using fire and air magic, after all). It’s also possible that neither theory actually applies in Tyria, and their manipulation of time, space, and chaos are products of Tyria’s magic-based physics that do not necessarily run parallel to modern science.

One thing that makes for an interesting observation is that the Mists could well sit in the place of the luminiferous aether that was theorised to be the medium through which light propagates in the late 1800s.

Ahh yes but you comment on the posts I make. Nice high ground you have there.

“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.

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Posted by: Djahlat.9610

Djahlat.9610

@DH : you kinda started most recent threads and I agree with drax that the observable pattern in any discussion you partake in doesn’t invite for further exchange.

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Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

You are still using the word wrong when you describe her general dialogue. Perhaps you would like to use an example of Marjory being facetious before then in the story. Because making light of a serious situation through humor is not the same as calling something battlefield magic unless you can prove that Marjory wasn’t being serious or that it was received as a joke.

Everything after “on rox” in your post is unnecessary because it either makes a point that I agreed with in the post you were replying to or it is just false. We see Rox cast healing spring in any combat instances we have with her. The poison cloud is probably because poison cloud is a devourer skill.

We don’t know what battlefield magic is because we don’t know the classifications of normal magic beyond the bloodstones. But the bits we have heard would point to it being a thing as protection magic is a thing.

Your posts are returning to the trend that Drax is no doubt talking about. They’re all becoming “you’re wrong, I’m not” without anything to show for it.

This post is a little confusing to me if you follow your statement that I tell people they’re wrong and I’m not.

The argument took place like this.

  • I refer to a common event.
  • You say a character was kidding because we have not seen another doing something.
  • I say you are using kidding wrong and we attempt to rehash a debate that had existed for literally centuries on the word http://www.grammarphobia.com/blog/2014/03/facetious.html
  • I say that we have seen Rox use healing spring and we haven’t seen Braham use healing skills.
  • You say we haven’t seen Rox use healing spring and we haven’t seen Brahman use healing skills.

The belligerence I see is me questioning you on your definition of a word. The pretension is you telling me if only I read a character dialogue I would understand, or if only I looked up a word. I spent a good bit of time reading through all of Marjory’s dialogue leading up to when she utterd that phrase. However I fail to see her following the definitions of the word.

I asked for you to cite what part of dialogue makes you believe this about Marjory’s character, perhaps then we could analyse the common ground together. No, the response I get is that I am telling people they are wrong and I am right without proof.

Do you need the wiki alone to tell you Rox has used healing spring or do you want me to replay the missions to get a screenshot?

Drax to my amusement will comment on the threads I create but not to me. I asked them in another thread if I had wronged them somehow, but no reply. They have the desire to participate in discussions I create yet no desire to participate in discussion with the one who created them. They would frequently cite me for providing no proof or arguing incorrectly, when I have ever called out them doing the same I have been met with derision. It must be wrong of me to declare them hypocritical when the very statement they declared with certainty , that necromancers potential could be seen in Lichs, was based on an assumption, regardless of whether or not it was an opinion, as other commenter were able to get across, it was not enough proof.

Let me be the hypocrite then if it suits you.

I encourage you all to look back and actually read the comments you post, if you find no posts that have been overly assuming I would be amazed. If you can’t find one post even in the last 100 comments you made I would be impressed.

For instance calling trahearne bipolar, please don’t make me post the dsm V this is where I ask you to look up the kitten word. Bipolar is not a symptom of depression, and depression is not a symptom of bipolar. They call it depression and bipolar depression for a reason. I usually don’t curse in posts but this is turning into us versus them, with one side grasping a moral high ground and turning up their nose at the other. I have had enough of listening to Congress to get it in my free time.

tldr: If you don’t like a discussion point then agree that we disagree on that point and move on. This isn’t running a country, it’s a literary discussion. Why do people have to be so insulting? There is always some common ground.

“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.

(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)

What is the Tyrian concept of science?

in Lore

Posted by: Eirdyne.9843

Eirdyne.9843

The difference between Alchemy and Chemistry is largely that the Alchemists gave consideration to consciousness when attempting their experiments. This is in sharp contrast to our own world where consciousness is to us as the claim that all Galileo saw in his telescope was dust on the lens.

A few fair places to beginning reading about this would be Filtered and Reflections: Perspectives on Reality, a Princeton publication. Brian O’Leary’s The Second Coming of Science is another good source. Frances A. Yates Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition, and (ironically) the The Kingkiller Chronicles – as it covers most forms of magic from outside view of it.

A notable difference in the Tyrian world from our own is that they didn’t have to make a major break from their religions to enter the modern age. So, we don’t see any psuedo-sciences that much like Psychology, Behavioral ‘Science’, Sociology, etc trying to be more than a philosophy iterating that people are automatons through jargon babble.
This difference probably evolved because our civilization is based on the Western mode away from religious dogma into proof by experimentation. This effort was driven by the need to seek the idea of divinity that dominated European ideas of the 15th century with a direct access to that divinity through the study of nature itself. Formerly, all access to divinity came through a temple, church, and etc. Ascalon was shaped this way, as well as much of Tyria. Ashford Abby required Monks like Mhenlo to behave as conduits for the divinity. This created the issue of the middle man, the Dark Ages, various forms of tyrannies, the Inquisition, and eventually the split from strict Catholicism into varying religious sects and what would eventually be Alchemy and still later Science.

Alchemy was pretty interesting if you’re reading primary sources. The belief there was that divinity had set about making the universe, but we its progenitors and equal. It celebrated the presence of nature as both a work of divinity and a work of Art. This included the idea that we are ourselves divine and so could shape the world as we so devised because it would inevitably lead to a greater concourse with the divinity. In short, the divinity had made the world, but only began it. It was up to us to finish it. Alchemy collapsed in the late 1500s when it was discovered the Hermetic tradition was not 3000 years old, as had been believed, but rather of late Roman era (though still possibly Egyptian).

At this point the European world was left to decide if it would detract itself back into the model of some Christian dogma or persist on ahead. Newton himself was an alchemist and took the practice quite seriously. Einstein, too, made a lot of use from old Alchemy texts as the trappings of language were less restrictive than modern modalities and so afforded a greater latitude and brevity of inspection than a contemporary dialog might.

Elective Affinities (Die Wahlverwandtschaften) by Johann Goethe is a good (if dry) example of the results. Europe refused to retract its consciousness back into the dogma of religious authority and anyway could not return to it having removed most of the obscurity religion afforded upon the grossly ignorant. The population was too large and traveling too often to hold themselves locked into a view that what terminated at the edge of their farm was ’ god’s country ’ and began the providence of demons and savages: that now had to be demonstrated (joke).

Tyria has avoided most of this by fortune of actually having a few more exotic things than our own world. It’s quite interesting that, if I’m not mistaken, the historian Herodotus actually set out to disprove the existence of Dragons only to return home with claims that had found them.
By contrast our world is mostly undergoing a process of elective extinction. Most of the super fauna are going, wiped out by whatever hit the Earth 12,000 years ago and the changes that brought. Our species has not reached any sort of equilibrium with itself. We have no clue about ourselves and actively attempt to stop any progress toward this despite a wealth of information that has been persistent with us since Eleusis.

Again, by contrast, Tyrians persistently have not suffered on a world of continuous hostility. The races are often challenged by external forces (other races typically), but the planet and its immediate environment itself hasn’t tried to kill them so persistently as Earth has. The Asura have largely stopped internal conflicts and don’t demonstrate any consciousness toward saying “That Asura is from Big Eyes Asura while this is Purple Skin Tribe! Die Big Eyes Asura!” Krytans demonstrate this constantly with the Nobles’ disregards for the Commoners under threat from Centaurs. In short, most of the other races have found a way to withhold themselves from this behavior through isolating it into a kind of eccentricity. For example, the Sons of Svanir of behaving nearly-human as they try to wipe out everyone so as to mimic the behavior of the strongest creature they’ve come across: Jormag. It’s only nearly human though as to be truly human they would have to have arbitrarily determined that everyone else to be an ‘other’ and proceed from there.

“Otherness” doesn’t really show up that much in Tyria today either. In older Tyria we saw that a lot, especially in Nightfall, but we were playing as humans for all of that. Most of the other races were merely trying to survive us in some form.

Civilization necessarily created those structures which eliminated, wherever possible, any cognizance to the idea of ideas having impact on the external world as this could detract from the effort of having

In summary, Tyria really hasn’t gone through the same persistent climate of trauma that Earth puts us through daily. Tyria has been more about trying to reach some sort of equilibrium with the environment than dominance of it. In brevity, Tyria is a world that favors cooperative-consciousness whereas Earth is largely a world favoring a dominator-consciousness. It doesn’t necessarily come out that one is more or less utopian than the other; just radically different in very subtle ways.

Science, therefore, didn’t really need to “take place” on Tyria. I posted a bit on why I think this last night. Essentially Tyrians didn’t have Descartes and John Locke, so they never were forced into the slump we’re climbing out of with regards to our own interpretations and use of consciousness.

What is the Tyrian concept of science?

in Lore

Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

The difference between Alchemy and Chemistry is largely that the Alchemists gave consideration to consciousness when attempting their experiments. This is in sharp contrast to our own world where consciousness is to us as the claim that all Galileo saw in his telescope was dust on the lens.

A few fair places to beginning reading about this would be Filtered and Reflections: Perspectives on Reality, a Princeton publication. Brian O’Leary’s The Second Coming of Science is another good source. Frances A. Yates Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition, and (ironically) the The Kingkiller Chronicles – as it covers most forms of magic from outside view of it.

A notable difference in the Tyrian world from our own is that they didn’t have to make a major break from their religions to enter the modern age. So, we don’t see any psuedo-sciences that much like Psychology, Behavioral ‘Science’, Sociology, etc trying to be more than a philosophy iterating that people are automatons through jargon babble.
This difference probably evolved because our civilization is based on the Western mode away from religious dogma into proof by experimentation. This effort was driven by the need to seek the idea of divinity that dominated European ideas of the 15th century with a direct access to that divinity through the study of nature itself. Formerly, all access to divinity came through a temple, church, and etc. Ascalon was shaped this way, as well as much of Tyria. Ashford Abby required Monks like Mhenlo to behave as conduits for the divinity. This created the issue of the middle man, the Dark Ages, various forms of tyrannies, the Inquisition, and eventually the split from strict Catholicism into varying religious sects and what would eventually be Alchemy and still later Science.

Alchemy was pretty interesting if you’re reading primary sources. The belief there was that divinity had set about making the universe, but we its progenitors and equal. It celebrated the presence of nature as both a work of divinity and a work of Art. This included the idea that we are ourselves divine and so could shape the world as we so devised because it would inevitably lead to a greater concourse with the divinity. In short, the divinity had made the world, but only began it. It was up to us to finish it. Alchemy collapsed in the late 1500s when it was discovered the Hermetic tradition was not 3000 years old, as had been believed, but rather of late Roman era (though still possibly Egyptian).

At this point the European world was left to decide if it would detract itself back into the model of some Christian dogma or persist on ahead. Newton himself was an alchemist and took the practice quite seriously. Einstein, too, made a lot of use from old Alchemy texts as the trappings of language were less restrictive than modern modalities and so afforded a greater latitude and brevity of inspection than a contemporary dialog might.

Elective Affinities (Die Wahlverwandtschaften) by Johann Goethe is a good (if dry) example of the results. Europe refused to retract its consciousness back into the dogma of religious authority and anyway could not return to it having removed most of the obscurity religion afforded upon the grossly ignorant. The population was too large and traveling too often to hold themselves locked into a view that what terminated at the edge of their farm was ’ god’s country ’ and began the providence of demons and savages: that now had to be demonstrated (joke).

Tyria has avoided most of this by fortune of actually having a few more exotic things than our own world. It’s quite interesting that, if I’m not mistaken, the historian Herodotus actually set out to disprove the existence of Dragons only to return home with claims that had found them.
By contrast our world is mostly undergoing a process of elective extinction. Most of the super fauna are going, wiped out by whatever hit the Earth 12,000 years ago and the changes that brought. Our species has not reached any sort of equilibrium with itself. We have no clue about ourselves and actively attempt to stop any progress toward this despite a wealth of information that has been persistent with us since Eleusis.

Again, by contrast, Tyrians persistently have not suffered on a world of continuous hostility. The races are often challenged by external forces (other races typically), but the planet and its immediate environment itself hasn’t tried to kill them so persistently as Earth has. The Asura have largely stopped internal conflicts and don’t demonstrate any consciousness toward saying “That Asura is from Big Eyes Asura while this is Purple Skin Tribe! Die Big Eyes Asura!” Krytans demonstrate this constantly with the Nobles’ disregards for the Commoners under threat from Centaurs. In short, most of the other races have found a way to withhold themselves from this behavior through isolating it into a kind of eccentricity. For example, the Sons of Svanir of behaving nearly-human as they try to wipe out everyone so as to mimic the behavior of the strongest creature they’ve come across: Jormag. It’s only nearly human though as to be truly human they would have to have arbitrarily determined that everyone else to be an ‘other’ and proceed from there.

“Otherness” doesn’t really show up that much in Tyria today either. In older Tyria we saw that a lot, especially in Nightfall, but we were playing as humans for all of that. Most of the other races were merely trying to survive us in some form.

Civilization necessarily created those structures which eliminated, wherever possible, any cognizance to the idea of ideas having impact on the external world as this could detract from the effort of having

In summary, Tyria really hasn’t gone through the same persistent climate of trauma that Earth puts us through daily. Tyria has been more about trying to reach some sort of equilibrium with the environment than dominance of it. In brevity, Tyria is a world that favors cooperative-consciousness whereas Earth is largely a world favoring a dominator-consciousness. It doesn’t necessarily come out that one is more or less utopian than the other; just radically different in very subtle ways.

Science, therefore, didn’t really need to “take place” on Tyria. I posted a bit on why I think this last night. Essentially Tyrians didn’t have Descartes and John Locke, so they never were forced into the slump we’re climbing out of with regards to our own interpretations and use of consciousness.

Are you saying that Tyrians have access to the noumenon? I fail to see how a culture with objective proof for prayer and alchemy would not use empiricism. But is agree that they probably less separation of religion and science.

“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.

What is the Tyrian concept of science?

in Lore

Posted by: Kulvar.1239

Kulvar.1239

My assumption is that they have no atoms only ether + magic.

There is two reference to molecules (implying atoms).
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Xapp
Feel that buzzing sensation in your molecular structure?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skritt_IQ_Test_Subject
This, right here, is called an air molecule.

What is the Tyrian concept of science?

in Lore

Posted by: Daniel Handler.4816

Daniel Handler.4816

My assumption is that they have no atoms only ether + magic.

There is two reference to molecules (implying atoms).
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Xapp
Feel that buzzing sensation in your molecular structure?
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skritt_IQ_Test_Subject
This, right here, is called an air molecule.

Good catch. The next leap is if they have molecules do they have a system or biological information retention similar to DNA?

Would this mean the abilities of elemtalists actually require preexisting matter?

For instance when Joko forces parts of Elona into drought why didn’t the elementalist just make it rain?

“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.

What is the Tyrian concept of science?

in Lore

Posted by: Aaron Ansari.1604

Aaron Ansari.1604

" Ah, Rata Sum! If it wasn’t for the Priory work, I’d be there now, meditating upon the Eternal Alchemy in the aroma of my very own genetically engineered flowers. "

That concept of genetics would require, if not precisely DNA, at least an equivalent
determiner of physical characteristics subject to tampering.

R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

What is the Tyrian concept of science?

in Lore

Posted by: Kulvar.1239

Kulvar.1239

Tyria is a dualist world.
DNA & Soul make someone.