Guild Wars 2

What is the soruce of the Guardians power?

I admit I have played, and roleplayed a lot in World of Warcraft. All of their classes had a description of where they get their power. Shamans as an example, channels their powers from the elements, communicating with them. Mages uses the Arcane to form frostbolts and fireballs and whatnot, Paladins use the Holy Light, while Blood Elf Paladin stole Light from a Naaru.

So, where do Guardians get their powers from? Being able to from domes, and summoning Spirit weapons.

I know the background of Guardians from the start were Paragons. The turmoil in Elona made Paragons teach all kinds of people around the world, later ending up created todays Guardian.

Since every race can be a Guardian, it can’t be about the Human gods.

Can a Guardians power be pure willpower and dedication to defend and hold ground?

A few elements are at play here. Magic the NPC’s use comes from the bloodstones. A-net said magic is natural talent like any other skill but can be practiced and improved like any other skill. And guardians do use their will power (faith in gods/warband/self/cause/etc.) so that may be how they access it.

The power comes from the Bloodstones – specifically, the bloodstone that also powered monks (believed to be Preservation). We’ve been told that guardians access their power through faith (although it doesn’t matter what they have faith in), but that’s not where the power originally comes from, but more of a condition to access the power.

draxynnic.3719:

The power comes from the Bloodstones – specifically, the bloodstone that also powered monks (believed to be Preservation). We’ve been told that guardians access their power through faith (although it doesn’t matter what they have faith in), but that’s not where the power originally comes from, but more of a condition to access the power.

Well, to be more specific, the power comes through the bloodstones. The bloodstones divide the raw magical power that seems to come from under the surface of Tyria (many skill challenges are about channeling power coming from underground) into the four schools of magic, known as aggression, destruction, preservation, and denial. So, the Guardian accesses the bloodstone through faith, willpower or knowledge (very little is known about the details of how magic is channeled from the bloodstones).

I tend to think of their power also coming from willpower like Green Lantern.

Tuomir.1830:

draxynnic.3719:

The power comes from the Bloodstones – specifically, the bloodstone that also powered monks (believed to be Preservation). We’ve been told that guardians access their power through faith (although it doesn’t matter what they have faith in), but that’s not where the power originally comes from, but more of a condition to access the power.

Well, to be more specific, the power comes through the bloodstones. The bloodstones divide the raw magical power that seems to come from under the surface of Tyria (many skill challenges are about channeling power coming from underground) into the four schools of magic, known as aggression, destruction, preservation, and denial. So, the Guardian accesses the bloodstone through faith, willpower or knowledge (very little is known about the details of how magic is channeled from the bloodstones).

Actually, that’s incorrect. The Seer Arah path shows that most of Tyria’s magic was sealed within the original Bloodstone to protect it when the dragons were last awake, and the majority of the world’s magic is still coming from those. There are other sources of magic in the world as you’ve observed, but most of the magic is coming from the Bloodstones, and the Bloodstones are actually the source rather than a filter as previously believed.

And the thing about faith is not speculation – it’s something we were told in interviews about the guardian when the guardian was announced in January last year. How magic is channeled through the other bloodstones is still unclear, but the guardian definitely channels through faith.

draxynnic.3719:

Tuomir.1830:

draxynnic.3719:

The power comes from the Bloodstones – specifically, the bloodstone that also powered monks (believed to be Preservation). We’ve been told that guardians access their power through faith (although it doesn’t matter what they have faith in), but that’s not where the power originally comes from, but more of a condition to access the power.

Well, to be more specific, the power comes through the bloodstones. The bloodstones divide the raw magical power that seems to come from under the surface of Tyria (many skill challenges are about channeling power coming from underground) into the four schools of magic, known as aggression, destruction, preservation, and denial. So, the Guardian accesses the bloodstone through faith, willpower or knowledge (very little is known about the details of how magic is channeled from the bloodstones).

Actually, that’s incorrect. The Seer Arah path shows that most of Tyria’s magic was sealed within the original Bloodstone to protect it when the dragons were last awake, and the majority of the world’s magic is still coming from those. There are other sources of magic in the world as you’ve observed, but most of the magic is coming from the Bloodstones, and the Bloodstones are actually the source rather than a filter as previously believed.

And the thing about faith is not speculation – it’s something we were told in interviews about the guardian when the guardian was announced in January last year. How magic is channeled through the other bloodstones is still unclear, but the guardian definitely channels through faith.

I don’t doubt you, I don’t think I’ve played through that path. Though “through faith” is still not very detailed. Faith is not a thing easily described, and since it’s not faith in a specific thing, it gets even more vague.

They said it could be faith in a lot of different things. e.g.: Charr guardians can have faith in their warband. All that is required is faith in something.

And that’s exactly what I’m getting at – if it hardly matters what the faith is for, how does that translate into channeling magic from a bloodstone? Is it about dedication, through which the caster is able to connect to the bloodstone? This is what I mean by the lack of detail.

I think faith is the word we are looking for. Not dedication or anything related to faith but faith itself.

That is where the space is open for speculation, yes. My personal theory is that having certain mindsets makes it easier to connect to certain bloodstones – which would also serve to explain similarities in personality between NPCs of other spellcasting professions.

draxynnic.3719:

That is where the space is open for speculation, yes. My personal theory is that having certain mindsets makes it easier to connect to certain bloodstones – which would also serve to explain similarities in personality between NPCs of other spellcasting professions.

This makes sense. That it is actually the mindset that allows the connection.

I always thought that a guardian’s abilities were based upon their desire to protect people/one person (ie. Logan Thackeray), not on faith.

A-net specifically used the word faith but I think drax and tuomir are attempting to identify what it is about faith that makes it work.

See, this has always confused me about the bloodstone(s), and I may make a separate topic to explore this further.
So, magic as given to the world and any and all could use it. Then, it was realized the humans were more or less tearing the world apart with it. So, to prevent any misuse, the bloodstone was created and shattered into several pieces with a keystone, which was thrown into a volcano somewhere. The purpose of this was to prevent any one person from having, like, all the frelling power in the world. My guess is that the Seer Arah path is talking about the keystone. So why can I burn the heck out of things or inflict all sorts of nasty stuff on others if I only have access to one bloodstone as a guardian?
Also, it is correct that not all magic comes through the bloodstones. Ritualists from Guild Wars 1 used Ritualism supposedly long before other magic ever was even a glimmer in some godlike-being’s eye.

You got things wrong on a lot of matters. The bloodstone was not created by the gods, it was created by the seers long before the gods came to Tyria (according to our current timeline). The gods merely released the magic (Abaddon specifically). Then humanity’s leader, King Doric, pleaded for the gods to take away magic because humanity was being beaten back with major bloodshed by it. The gods split up magic into the 4 stones to allow an individual to only use the magic of 1 maybe 2 stones at a time, never wielding the power of all 4. There are guesses that perhaps magic was more potent before the bloodstone wkittentered, based on the amount of bloodshed there supposedly was as magic was released. The other thought, and the one that ArenaNet seemed to project at first, was that individuals could only do so much alone, because of their limitations, forcing people to work together in order to wield all the powers of the bloodstones. BTW they were all thrown into Abaddon’s Mouth (volcano at the heart of the Ring of Fire) and then the volcano erupted years (maybe centuries, I don’t remember) later and scattered the regular bloodstone. Only the keystone (should I remember right) remains inside of the volcano. 1 of them resides in what is now the Maguuma Wastes and the other resides beneath the now Steamspur Mountains. The other two are major unknowns.

EDIT: Apparently was —-——— shattered can be combined into a foul word, who knew :P

Keyce.8137:

I always thought that a guardian’s abilities were based upon their desire to protect people/one person (ie. Logan Thackeray), not on faith.

Desire to protect has been mentioned, yes. If my theory is right, they’re probably both part of having the right ‘mindset’ to attune with the guardian bloodstone. Note that this still allows for the best defense being a good offense…

Narcemus.1348:

You got things wrong on a lot of matters. The bloodstone was not created by the gods, it was created by the seers long before the gods came to Tyria (according to our current timeline). The gods merely released the magic (Abaddon specifically). Then humanity’s leader, King Doric, pleaded for the gods to take away magic because humanity was being beaten back with major bloodshed by it. The gods split up magic into the 4 stones to allow an individual to only use the magic of 1 maybe 2 stones at a time, never wielding the power of all 4. There are guesses that perhaps magic was more potent before the bloodstone wkittentered, based on the amount of bloodshed there supposedly was as magic was released. The other thought, and the one that ArenaNet seemed to project at first, was that individuals could only do so much alone, because of their limitations, forcing people to work together in order to wield all the powers of the bloodstones. BTW they were all thrown into Abaddon’s Mouth (volcano at the heart of the Ring of Fire) and then the volcano erupted years (maybe centuries, I don’t remember) later and scattered the regular bloodstone. Only the keystone (should I remember right) remains inside of the volcano. 1 of them resides in what is now the Maguuma Wastes and the other resides beneath the now Steamspur Mountains. The other two are major unknowns.

EDIT: Apparently was —-——— shattered can be combined into a foul word, who knew :P

That’s pretty much what I said (I summarized a bit), except for the stuff that happened BEFORE Doric’s journey. Where did you find out the bloodstones existed BEFORE the gods gave magic to the world, and specifically before Doric’s journey? According to the official guide and manuals of Guild Wars 1 and the wiki, the bloodstone is not mentioned until the gods (supposedly) created it in response to Doric’s request.

Ramiah.5648:

Where did you find out the bloodstones existed BEFORE the gods gave magic to the world, and specifically before Doric’s journey?

The original Bloodstone was a powerful and large stone that the seers created to contain magic that was not corrupted by the Elder Dragons during their last rise. When the Six Human Gods arrived on Tyria and established Arah, they gathered multiple ancient magical artifacts, including the Bloodstone, into their city. In 1 BE, Abaddon used the Bloodstone to gift magic to all the races of Tyria. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Bloodstone

That’s really funny. In the history, it doesn’t mention it but if you Wiki bloodstone specifically it does. nice.

That is because according to the human history in GW1 you are told that the gods created the bloodstones, but Guild Wars 2 has proven to us that the histories that we have been given from the human point of view are somewhat fallible. We do not fully know to what extent, but in some senses it is.

First of all, it wasn’t strictly a “human” point of view, it was a Guild Wars point of view. There’s evidence for it all over the place in GW1, not just the manuscripts.

Secondly, GW2 is a different story, with a different agenda, and a different staff than the original. It’s almost on a different world for crying out loud. Having human gods being the creators, and keepers ultimately, of magic just doesn’t jive with a multi-race game where they are all using magic equally. It was a retcon done for mechanical, thematic, and lore purposes to serve the GW2 agenda.

It’s really that simple.

All the classes get their power from the gods of Tyria. At least that is how it was brought to us and then taken back only to be given in normal doses.

All races and cultures used magic more or less equally in GW1 regardless of whether they were for or against the gods. It’s pretty clear that, while they were able to exert some influence over magic, they were not the source – or, at least, not the sole source.

That’s not how it played out it GW1 though drax. It didn’t matter if races were for or against the gods, the 6 bestowed magic to all relatively intelligent beings on Tyria at some point. And then restrained its use with the bloodstones when everyone started abusing it(especially the humans).

I used the adjective “human” gods because that’s how they are portrayed now. They were really Tyrian gods. It didn’t matter if you worshiped them or not, magic was available to everyone. Look, ANet wanted to take the story in a different direction so they tweaked the lore to that end. What’s so hard to believe about that?

We’ve had this discussion before. None of the old lore regarding magic or the bloodstones has been overturned, now we just know more about the details than “a god did it” – and it was clear throughout Prophecies that however they’d done it, they didn’t have the fine control to deny it to non-worshippers or even their enemies, so it clearly wasn’t coming directly from them.

The only GW1 lore that’s actually been changed is that the gods created the world, and there were holes in that assumption even in Prophecies… and it’s still canon that humans and other races believed the gods created the world.

Hmm, I don’t think the gods had either the will, or the power, to deny it to non-worshippers. I don’t think they really wanted to anyway. Maybe unleashing magic upon Tyria was something they couldn’t reverse, who knows. They weren’t all-powerful gods after all, and they made many mistakes. I mean, restraining magic into the bloodstones would support this, why not just directly cut off creatures from using it?

The gods of Tyria seem to act a lot like Greek gods did. They rebel, they get angry, they make mistakes. They use humans(or whatever race in this case) as tools to accomplish something…why not do it themselves? Do they have relations with Tryian creature, I’m not sure on that one?

There seems to be this assumption that since they are gods, they should have complete control over everything they create or favor. I just don’t think that’s the case with the GW1 Tryian gods. Magic seems to have been the giant “cat is out of the bag” for them, and however powerful they are…they can’t control it completely. The way they act in relation to Tyria and Tryians seems to support this.

Also, I may have missed it, but I don’t remember hearing that the gods created the world while playing GW1. Honest question, were there texts or npc’s around that spoke of it?

I know it is mentioned at least somewhere that the gods created Tyria in human history, but I cannot find a source. I do know that it is a well known fact that the charr have legends about Melandru creating the world, or at least forming it. Sadly I have been away from the game for so long, I’m not sure where the sources for this info are. I looked at the wiki but I did not find a direct source. I do know that to another question you had “do they have relations with Tyrian creatures?” Yes they can, Grenth is born of Dwayna and a “Mortal Sculptor.”

The direct sources are:

1) The Prophecies Manuscripts. (Not right at the start – it’s a couple of pages in where you start finding mentions about the gods working to create the world. In the context of what we now know, this is probably actually referring to their terraforming, but humans believed Tyria was a creation of the gods rather than being something the gods found and improved.)

2) The Ecology of the Charr (the charr legends about Melandru

3) The priest who wanders around the top ledge of Hoelbrak looking to get converts says something along the lines of “we used to believe the gods created the world, but now we know better”.

@Obsidian: I’ve never thought the gods were all-powerful, and have regularly argued against the concept that many monotheists have that a god must be all-powerful.

However, if the power of magic was coming directly from the gods, then they would presumably be able to deny it to individual spellcasters they don’t approve of. Unless they really do approve of creatures that are openly trying to overthrow them, this clearly isn’t the case. So magic from Prophecies on, regardless of what human monks may have thought, was always a case of the gods having done something that introduced magic into the the world in a manner that wasn’t truly under their control.

How did that happen? Well, until we got to the Arah Seer path, it was basically A God Did It. Like the linked trope, it’s not really a satisfying explanation, just a handwave for something that may or may not be filled in later. Most polytheistic religions, after all, are not content with leaving their explanations for things as saying A God Did It as monotheistic religions are with all-powerful gods performing acts of creation with a few words – they have stories about how their gods did what they did, often involving using artifacts, resources, and even body parts left behind by an older generation of mortal, divine, or semidivine beings.

Now, we have a bit more of that story. It’s no longer A God Did It – instead, it was that a god switched a magic-storing device left by an elder race from ‘suck’ to ‘blow’. Nothing in the original story about the creation of magic has been retconned - ArenaNet has just filled in a few additional details.

Myself, I find that a lot more satisfying than just saying A Wizard*ahem*God Did It, and I’m constantly perplexed at how strong an objection you seem to have at it.

drax

Well, I didn’t see it that way I guess. To be short, I liked the mystery. It’s good that there was an aspect of Tyria that we can’t or don’t know about, and I think it worked for GW1. It might have been tropish in the fact that there were mysterious gods at all I suppose…but at least they were written well and not some vague diety in the sky that we don’t ever deal with.

Personally I’d rather save the scientific minutia for real-life. The various Asuran technobabble on ghosts and magic and corruption makes the game sound like a never-ending episode of The Big Bang Theory. Guild Wars is a fantasy genre…with all the divine and demonic elements to boot. By meshing magic and science, they created a no-man’s land genre which doesn’t do either justice. I mean…who needs magic when you have lasers?

Also, I actually thought the fact that Guild Wars not having dragons in the traditional sense(Glint and Kuunavang were both nicely un-cliched) made for excellent originality. That same originality was present in the story and cultures of the first game. Why mess with that?

I still maintain my “retcon” argument, just not in the fine details so much as it is in the big picture. The new ANet writers were very good in how they made sure almost everything fit together legitimately. But they were very poor in their choice of theme, style, and content. That’s why I object so strongly I guess, because they made such an obvious play for mass-appeal at the expense of the old story. Like dragons, magi-tech, steam-punk, vikings, lasers, unicorns, etc, etc, etc.

It’s ridiculously cliche’d to the point of overkill…and I can’t bring myself to take any of it entertaining, much less seriously.