Guild Wars 2

Hello fellow Tyrians.

Months have passed since we saw Zaithan fall. Since then, we’ve been attacked by a king from the underworld, giant crabs attacked Lion’s Arch, an alliance of dredge and flame legion has run rampart through the north and now a rogue sylvari throws an army of robots, pirates and old enemies at us.

Is all of this because we defeated Zhaitan? Do the world, free from the pressure from one of the elder dragons, feels like fighting itself?

Don’t people see that there are at least 3 more dragons at range to fight to? What happened to the pact? Is it too busy trying to cleanse Orr? If they need a hand to wrap that up, we could help them.

I mean, really. What in the name of mittens kitty is wrong with Tyria!!??

like the real world, there’s more than just one single important thing happening at a time. just think of all the minor and major conflicts happening on earth and how they’re unrelated, and then the corruption scandals, important elections, international festivals, etc.

ANet wants to mimic that feeeling with tyria. tyria is not a train going down a single line. it’s a world. and worlds aren’t this linear, “let’s take this one at a time” stories.

so what i’m trying to say is that the pact is still working on orr (and we’re still helping them… well, the ones that aren’t exploiting events with no fail states are), the festivals are still going on, the other minor conflicts are still going on, the molten alliance and the sky pirates would’ve shown up regardless of dragons being killed or not, etc.

The Giant Crabs was Bubbles stirring or possibly awaking. Has nothing to do with Zhaitan, there are 5 more of him to go around. The Molten Alliance and the Aetherblades both go back to Scarlet which possibly ties into the Story of one of the Asuran starter storys where they explain the Steam Creatures in an Alternate World Scenario (check the Wooden Potatoes Vid for detailed explanations). Since we are connected to other alternate worlds via the Mists (hello WvW) Scarlet will have found a way to cross to them, since she has been through all three Asuran Colleges and obviously is a smart cookie.

Meluna.1764:

The Giant Crabs was Bubbles stirring or possibly awaking. Has nothing to do with Zhaitan, there are 5 more of him to go around. The Molten Alliance and the Aetherblades both go back to Scarlet which possibly ties into the Story of one of the Asuran starter storys where they explain the Steam Creatures in an Alternate World Scenario (check the Wooden Potatoes Vid for detailed explanations). Since we are connected to other alternate worlds via the Mists (hello WvW) Scarlet will have found a way to cross to them, since she has been through all three Asuran Colleges and obviously is a smart cookie.

I know the backstory of all those events. My question is why are they all happening so close to each other.
In the story of GW1 we had the excuse that all was part of Abaddon’s plan. And maybe he was trying to time his awakening with the one of the dragons. Kormir only knows why.
But now, all this weird stuff happening altogether, something’s wrong. Maybe we unstabilized reality by killing Zhaitan or something. This is too many things happening at once.

If you really think about it, a lot of stuff was happening even before Zhaitan’s defeat.

You had the Flame Legion attacking Ascalon.
You had the centaurs on humanity’s doorstep; and bandits funded by the Minister.
You had the Inquest messing things up in Asura territory.
You had Sons of Svanir and Jormag partying about in the northern Shiverpeaks.
You had the Dragonbrand going on.
You had ogres invading west.
You had some jotun trying to make a name for himself.
You had the Nightmare Court’s many attempts at turning others.
You had the dredge’s ever xenophobia acting about.
You had Primordus partying it out in the basement with his smoke seeping through the ceiling.
You had krait messing up Tyria’s bathtub.
Let’s not forget the DSD’s influence here and there (which is why the krait are messing up Tyria’s bathtub).
And then you had Zhaitan.

And in all of these: the Inquest, Flame Legion, and Dredge all lost their leadership; the Nightmare Court and Bandit’s leadership got hindered but not taken out; Zhaitan was taken out; Sons of Svanir and ogres had a few skirmishes here and there; the rest basically went untouched.

After Zhaitan’s death you have…

The DSD forcing another deep sea group out.
The three large factions who lost their leadership listening to Scarlet.
Moar pirates.

I don’t think that you have “all these events” happening just because Zhaitan died. Hell, there’s hints in an interview where Scott or Angel said that the Molten Alliance was being formed for some time, overlooked because everyone was focused on the dragons.

Honestly, all we’ve really done is made one old threat slightly more prominent (DSD), and three old threats combined (Dredge, Flame Legion, Inquest) under a unified leader (Scarlet).

Now, about your argument that “everything in GW1 was all part of Abaddon’s plan” – well let’s take a look:

We had the charr attacking Ascalon – though the timing was influenced by Abaddon, as well as the Searing, this is something that’s been going on for centuries.
We had the centaurs warring with humans in the background (another thing going on for centuries).
Tengu were bandits; and let’s not forget we had actual bandits.
We had the Stone Summit which were not tied to Abaddon.
We had the Orrian undead which were tied to Abaddon.
We had the Mursaat which were not tied to Abaddon.
We had the Naga who were indirectly influenced by Abaddon. Wardens too.
We had the Am Fah and the Jade Brotherhood and Crimson Skull, none of which tied to Abaddon.
We had the Afflicted and Shiro, tied to Abaddon.
We had the harpy and heket situation in Elona, not tied to Abaddon.
We had Varesh and Margonites, tied to Abaddon.
We had Joko’s remnants, not tied to Abaddon.
We had the charr revolution going on.
And we had the Destroyers, not tied to Abaddon.

To say “everything in GW1 was related to Abaddon” is very much false. Just the main plots were, and even then not all of it.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

We had the Mursaat which were not tied to Abaddon.

Yes they were, but not directly. They were trying to prevent the Flameseeker Prophecies from coming to pass, which was the release of the titans, which was one thing Abaddon wanted to happen. (Even if it wasn’t exactly a PLAN the way Nightfall was, just taking advantage of things.)

250 years is a very large amount of time to pass. The events that we know occurred between the end of GW1 and the beginning of GW2 were the major world-changing events.
Anything left unmentioned was likely on the same scale as (or smaller than) the Living Story things. The only difference is that the PC didn’t participate in the older events. These minor events were solved by average people making a difference to return Tyria to the status quo.
It was either that, or events that did occur were so insignificant that they didn’t need to be mentioned.

The Orrian undead were raised by Vizier Khilbron who was being manipulated by Abaddon.

… Right?

I could be wrong about that one.

Also weren’t the Am Fah being heavily manipulated by Shiro and thus kinda Abaddon by proxy?

@Scynte: By “tied to” I really meant “working for.” The mursaat would likely have been a threat – if not a more open one – irregardless of the Flameseeker Prophecies. And they honestly were a threat thanks to Glint making the prophecies, rather than Abaddon’s actions.

@Kirschwasser: I did say that the Orrian undead were tied to Abaddon.

And while it’s heavily implied Shiro influenced the leader of the Am Fah, they were more of taking advantage of the Affliction, rather than being in cahoots with Shiro. Furthermore, they were a threat to Cantha far before Shiro (even when Shiro was alive the first time), and would have been one irregardless of Shiro. As such, I don’t consider them tied to Abaddon. They were just a tool Shiro ended up taking advantage of to increase the amount of chaos and Afflicted.

Oh. Pfft. For some reason I read that they weren’t.

To me it doesn’t seem like there’s more conflict, just that the PC’s attention is more focused on it. It was going on in the background in GW1, but it’s foregrounded by living story.

maybe the no-dragon problem atm is because the aetherblades stole most of the airships from the pact., so we have to get the aiships back first before we can fight another dragon:)

Arenanet realized that dragons make up for crappy bossfights and players don’t like them, because they don’t have personalities, so the try to save the situation with the LS.

arrogant lore master know-it-all-looking-down-on-us atittude aside,we really should adress other matters,we get 10 minutes of story each month the rest is achievement hunting and grinding,what about the home instance,the human sister,the warband,the Orders??

….

What prohibits anet from adding those dragons more personalities?

What’s happening on Tyria? Bad writing and blatant, outrageous disregard for established lore.

Winds.3087:

What prohibits anet from adding those dragons more personalities?

The fact that they are dragons. They want to eat and destroy, that’s all.

Free lances:
Tengu were bandits; and let’s not forget we had actual bandits.
The Tengu were just xenophobic, they didn’t raid human lands. They just didn’t allow humans into their lands. Peace was achieved with the Tengu in Cantha.

We had the Stone Summit which were not tied to Abaddon.
Even though the dwarves were tied to Primordious by being the nemesis of its champion, the Stone Summit xenophobia wasn’t tied to that, they were just jerks.

We had the Am Fah and the Jade Brotherhood and Crimson Skull, none of which tied to Abaddon.
Just another group of jerks.

We had the harpy and heket situation in Elona, not tied to Abaddon.
Again, not actively attacking, just defending their lands.

We had the charr revolution going on.
And this was a bad thing… how?

Tied to dragons:
And we had the Destroyers, not tied to Abaddon.
Just tied to the next mega-plot twist, the dragons.

Tied to abaddon:
We had the charr attacking Ascalon – though the timing was influenced by Abaddon, as well as the Searing, this is something that’s been going on for centuries.
We had the centaurs warring with humans in the background (another thing going on for centuries).
The charr attacked ascalon just as the centaurs or ogres did for centuries. They only became a real threat when they got their “gods” that (surprise surprise!) where Abaddon’s minions.

We had the Orrian undead which were tied to Abaddon.
No discussion here.

We had the Naga who were indirectly influenced by Abaddon. Wardens too.
No discussion here.

We had the Mursaat which were not tied to Abaddon.
Mursaat activity was meant to prevent the invasion of Abaddon’s minions. The Mursaat were arround for millennia, they only killed a few to power the door of komalie. They weren’t a threat at all. We were played by an Abaddon’s minion into exterminating them.

We had the Afflicted and Shiro, tied to Abaddon.
No discussion here

We had Varesh and Margonites, tied to Abaddon.
No discussion here.

We had Joko’s remnants, not tied to Abaddon.
The liberation of Joko had everything to do with Abaddon. His birth as an undead king didn’t though.

If you leave Abaddon’s nightfall out of the equation in GW1, you’ve got the Stone Summit, the Ahm Fah, the Jade Broderhood and some indigenous races defending their own lands. And that’s it.

I believe that Abaddon was trying to time his awaking with the dragon’s awakening. He was the most powerful of the gods and he might’ve wanted to give it a shot at killing the dragons while the world was in the Nightfall. After all, he was kind of fond of magic and the dragons have a very large amount of it.
It’s not to be surprised that a year after nightfall the first dragon was trying to awake.

So the great destroyer and the nightfall could be part of the same plot. Meaning that the whole world instability back in the day was part of the same plot (aside from the 3 “jerk” factions)

What I don’t get is:

1. why did the mad king had just awaken now.
2. the crazy inquest/aetherblade/molten alliance activity.
3. why did the karka got expelled so soon after Zhaitan’s defeat.

Gandarel.5091:

The fact that they are dragons. They want to eat and destroy, that’s all.

How can you be certain? You spoke with them?

With Zhaitan dead and the fact that we haven’t really seen any of the other dragons yet, I think that does give way to Tyria being able to squabble with itself more and more. I wouldn’t mind seeing a Human vs. Charr living story again.

Stramatus.5219:

With Zhaitan dead and the fact that we haven’t really seen any of the other dragons yet, I think that does give way to Tyria being able to squabble with itself more and more. I wouldn’t mind seeing a Human vs. Charr living story again.

I’d like that too, but it’s not likely to happen.

Gandarel.5091:

Arenanet realized that dragons make up for crappy bossfights and players don’t like them, because they don’t have personalities, so the try to save the situation with the LS.

And, IMO, they aren’t doing a good job.

Dragons are more interesting than Scarlet thus far. >.>

Honestly speaking, it’s less of a “living story” and more of a “Scarlet’s story.” A true living story… wouldn’t be focusing on Scarlet all the time. And given how now the Molten Alliance is tied to her, it rather is.

Ludovicus.7980:

The Tengu were just xenophobic, they didn’t raid human lands. They just didn’t allow humans into their lands. Peace was achieved with the Tengu in Cantha.

They’re a bit xenophobic in GW2, but I wouldn’t say they are in GW1. Quetzal were indeed territorial and the Avicara are questionable, but in Kryta you can see tengu raiding merchants in Divinity Coast mission.

Ludovicus.7980:

We had the harpy and heket situation in Elona, not tied to Abaddon.
Again, not actively attacking, just defending their lands.

Uh… they were invading from Dzalana.

Harpies were at least. That’s the whole purpose of the Dzagonur Bastion fortress – to keep the harpies from invading (which is why the party at Tihmark Wilderness mission ends so abruptly – harpies that far west is so uncommon because they’re invading).

Ludovicus.7980:

We had the charr revolution going on.
And this was a bad thing… how?

I was listing conflicts in the world, not “bad guys.” Though if you must insist – I listed this because that is the precursor to the Flame Legion’s actions in GW2.

Ludovicus.7980:

The charr attacked ascalon just as the centaurs or ogres did for centuries. They only became a real threat when they got their “gods” that (surprise surprise!) where Abaddon’s minions.

They were actually a constant threat, they were just holding back while they gained strength.

Her people were viewed as grim by their neighbors. This was perhaps, to be expected, given their never-ending war against the aggressive Charr. – Prophecies manual, Ascalon entry.

Ludovicus.7980:

Mursaat activity was meant to prevent the invasion of Abaddon’s minions. The Mursaat were arround for millennia, they only killed a few to power the door of komalie. They weren’t a threat at all. We were played by an Abaddon’s minion into exterminating them.

Yes, because acting out of self-survival is “to prevent the invasion of Abaddon’s minions” and killing thousands in only a couple of years is really “only killed a few.”

Face it, they were a threat. Unless you consider Glint to be a minion of Abaddon (fact: she isn’t; she was also going against the titans). Prophecies is basically a four-way battle. You have the charr (force #1), who were used by Abaddon (force #2), in conflict with the mursaat (force #3), and also in conflict with Glint (force #4). And we and the dwarven civil war was in the middle of it all.

The mursaat were not good guys – their past records show that they don’t give a skritt’s kitten about other races. If their lives weren’t in danger, do you really think that they would just be chilling out? This race of powerful spellcasters who nearly annihilated an entire race before retreating into the Mists to save their own hides?

Come on now.

Ludovicus.7980:

We had Joko’s remnants, not tied to Abaddon.
The liberation of Joko had everything to do with Abaddon. His birth as an undead king didn’t though.

The existence of the remnants of Joko’s army were unrelated to Abaddon. I’m not talking about his liberation – where he acted as a good guy and an ally, even if temporarily. I’m talking about the rebellious undead that were hostile to us in the Desolation.

Ludovicus.7980:

If you leave Abaddon’s nightfall out of the equation in GW1, you’ve got the Stone Summit, the Ahm Fah, the Jade Broderhood and some indigenous races defending their own lands. And that’s it.

Caromi raiders and mursaat, centaurs in the background still and without the undead threat they would likely be in the foreground. You’d still have the charr and harpies invading as well.

Ludovicus.7980:

It’s not to be surprised that a year after nightfall the first dragon was trying to awake.

Three years.

Ludovicus.7980:

What I don’t get is:

1. why did the mad king had just awaken now.
2. the crazy inquest/aetherblade/molten alliance activity.
3. why did the karka got expelled so soon after Zhaitan’s defeat.

I can’t answer question one.

Question two is “Scarlet” – we still don’t know the full situation about her, but all of that is tied to her so it’s just one threat really.

On question three: Southsun Cove actually existed for a while without anyone knowing about its existence (hard to imagine but true). How old it is, is unknown. Similarly, the karka could have been on that island for much longer than The Lost Shores – e.g., before Zhaitan was defeated, they could have been there. And in fact, it’s implied they were.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Ludovicus.7980:

What I don’t get is:

1. why did the mad king had just awaken now.
2. the crazy inquest/aetherblade/molten alliance activity.
3. why did the karka got expelled so soon after Zhaitan’s defeat.

I can’t answer question one.

Question two is “Scarlet” – we still don’t know the full situation about her, but all of that is tied to her so it’s just one threat really.

On question three: Southsun Cove actually existed for a while without anyone knowing about its existence (hard to imagine but true). How old it is, is unknown. Similarly, the karka could have been on that island for much longer than The Lost Shores – e.g., before Zhaitan was defeated, they could have been there. And in fact, it’s implied they were.

Ok, so you’re saying that the karka attacked only due to the consortium activities?

Yes, as we learned during The Lost Shores. Canach disturbed them while he and his team were cataloging the island that was recently discovered. He was given orders not to mess with the animals and found the loophole that it didn’t include the plantlife – so he started experimenting on the Passion Flowers (I think it was those), which riled up the karka. The survivors of the team sans Owain fled to Lion’s Arch and then to Garrenhoff and Caledon – hence why the karka attacked those three locations.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

On question three: Southsun Cove actually existed for a while without anyone knowing about its existence (hard to imagine but true). How old it is, is unknown. Similarly, the karka could have been on that island for much longer than The Lost Shores – e.g., before Zhaitan was defeated, they could have been there. And in fact, it’s implied they were.

I gathered the karka existed as deep-sea threats until they were forced out to Southsun Cove . . . which, given memory . . . didn’t really exist there until Orr rose and mucked up the whole Sea of Sorrows. Or if it did, as a reef lower under the water. It DOES have the appearance of one in places.

Half of Southsun seems to be newly formed via volcanic activity (most of the western half). The eastern half is more iffy – Pearl Inlet seems to hold ruins, implying it was above water before Orr rose (or even sank possibly), but the main eastern island could be newer.

How long Southsun existed isn’t really known, but the Sea of Sorrows was still traversed after Zhaitan’s rise. Just over time it was traversed less and less.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Gandarel.5091:

Arenanet realized that dragons make up for crappy bossfights and players don’t like them, because they don’t have personalities, so the try to save the situation with the LS.

And, IMO, they aren’t doing a good job.

Dragons are more interesting than Scarlet thus far. >.>

Honestly speaking, it’s less of a “living story” and more of a “Scarlet’s story.” A true living story… wouldn’t be focusing on Scarlet all the time. And given how now the Molten Alliance is tied to her, it rather is.

The whole storytelling feels random and rushed. Unknown dangers hop in all the time with unknown new bosses. We just go and smack them, and maybe they will patch the gap of total loss of interest with a website post about some background fairytail as always. if you invest enough time, you can make up twisted specualtions that (in some cases) totally make sense and would be just awesome, but then you face the reality that you get a total plain explanation.

There are so many things that they could build on (from the past). So many unfinished stories to tell. Instead they are making up new and lame contents.

And yes, I hate that dragons replaced the lore of GW2 and with new writers slowly rewriting GW1’s lore to be all about dragons… I still miss them now. They are out there. They are the threat we’ve been united for. And they are just fine where they are, making 0 impact atm, letting people party for months and months.

Gandarel.5091:

And yes, I hate that dragons replaced the lore of GW2 and with new writers slowly rewriting GW1’s lore to be all about dragons…

Trouble is that GW1 was all about the humans, their Gods, and the cosmology which existed around these things.

I mean, once you reach Gotterdammerung . . . you’re really out of story to tell concerning gods, aren’t you?

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

Gandarel.5091:

And yes, I hate that dragons replaced the lore of GW2 and with new writers slowly rewriting GW1’s lore to be all about dragons…

Trouble is that GW1 was all about the humans, their Gods, and the cosmology which existed around these things.

I mean, once you reach Gotterdammerung . . . you’re really out of story to tell concerning gods, aren’t you?

I’m not talking about the gods. I’m taling about rewriting what magic is, how magic works and how dragons are involved, how is the leader of the stone summit is kinda-involved with Jormag, how is Glint a dragon champion (I can still accept this connection a bit), making Ascalon ancestral charr alnd to give them a ‘rightful claim’ so GW1 players won’t have the rightful reasons to agree with the separatists and hate the charr, and how they rewrite the whole calendar with adding 5 extra days and so on.

And yes, to a lesser extent they slowly take away every credit they gave to the gods. There are humans in Tyria who don’t believe in the gods and that is BS.

Gandarel.5091:

I’m not talking about the gods. I’m taling about rewriting what magic is, how magic works and how dragons are involved, how is the leader of the stone summit is kinda-involved with Jormag, how is Glint a dragon champion (I can still accept this connection a bit), making Ascalon ancestral charr alnd to give them a ‘rightful claim’ so GW1 players won’t have the rightful reasons to agree with the separatists and hate the charr, and how they rewrite the whole calendar with adding 5 extra days and so on.

And yes, to a lesser extent they slowly take away every credit they gave to the gods. There are humans in Tyria who don’t believe in the gods and that is BS.

You’re not talking about the gods, but I’m talking about why the story can’t have kept going the way it was without some massive changes and opening things up.

Also, magic had to be rewritten how it works because the classes and the stark division of magic was rewritten. I have no idea where the Stone Summit figure into this. (I do know they had a desperate decision to try waking the Great Destroyer supposedly, but I also assumed that was panic on the part of the Deldrimor High Priest.) The calendar day count is/was a completely trivial detail, however.

Ascalon being originally charr territory is acceptable considering they were absolutely heck-bent on taking it even with the Wall in the way. It sort of makes sense it wasn’t a conquest (that was after they rolled through Ascalon like it was nothing and “heck, why stop here?”) but vengeance on the humans.

(In character, one of my characters DOES hold deep-seated anger at charr if I ever roleplay it up. I think I creeped some people out though, so I had to knock it off saying I needed a new charr-hide rug.)

Glint . . . yeah, let’s all be honest? We had absolutely no idea how Glint could be reconciled with the Elder Dragons. We still don’t know how Kuunvaang is.

And on the topic of the Elder Dragons? We still don’t have one lick of sense about how they manage to exist at all if they wake up, strip the civilization from the world, and then just go back to sleep.

We know Kuunavang is NOT tied to any Elder Dragons.

@Ascalon. Like charrs need a reason to star a war. They took ‘their ancestral land’ from the Forgotten/Dwarves. It’s just that they couldn’t accept defeat and wanted to take revenge + their ‘gods’ gave them power to conquer. There is a difference between driving nomads back from where they came from and slaughtering a whole kingdom, women and children, burning them alive. Humans spent at least as much time in Ascalon as the charrs so this is arguable. Both sides have reasons, but Arenanet favors the charrs. As always.

Gandarel.5091:

We know Kuunavang is NOT tied to any Elder Dragons.

That’s still subject to debate, actually.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Gandarel.5091:

We know Kuunavang is NOT tied to any Elder Dragons.

That’s still subject to debate, actually.

I’m sure this was stated in an interview.

Could you link the interview?

I believe to have heard something like that from an interview as well… which was it, I’m not really sure and wouldn’t be able to track it down. In any case, what’s said in interviews (specially old ones, as it is in this case I believe) is not cast on stone. They can change what they said at one point in the past, to adjust it to their view of the world now.

Although I do think they didn’t emphatize that Kuunavang wasn’t tied at all, or in any way, to Elder Dragons. Probably they would’ve left space for speculation and doubts.

I will try to find the interview.

Gandarel, if you’re referring to the video chat interview Jeff and Ree did before release, what they said actually implies both Rotscale and Kuunavang are akin to Glint in the same manner that the Elder Dragons are to each other.

Found it. The internet is a marvelous invention.

http://nl.twitch.tv/guildwars2/b/327657138

Indeed, that’s the interview I was talking about.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

And in all of these: the Inquest, Flame Legion, and Dredge all lost their leadership

I knew all those points in your post before… but I never stoped to think that those 3 are the ones whose leaders we killed so they were easier to control for Scarlet than factions still leaded with big ego villians obviously not leting Scarlet take their credit and their troops being loyal instead of desperate for new guidance.

Even 2 parts of that worked together when they had their leaders.

Technically the Centaurs would count too (and burning Kryta sounds like a good offer), but unlike the others where the leader falls during a Dungeon (which happens before Zaithan), Ulgoth is always being fought and killed in the present due to dynamic events.

Good observation, it makes sense that she got the lost herds of armies we beheaded and used them for her purposses given how it should be easier.

Actually, now that you mention the centaurs, there is a Whispers agent in the Black Citadel who mentions rumors that the centaurs and Flame Legion have approached each other…

Really? Where?

Though for Scarlet, the centaurs wouldn’t offer much except for cannon fodder and earth magic at best. They have no tech, which is her area of interest, and I somehow doubt that earth magic would be a good proponent in magitech (unlike fire and lightning, rocks don’t give good energy, I guess).

Praetor’s Canton, up on its second level.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Really? Where?

Though for Scarlet, the centaurs wouldn’t offer much except for cannon fodder and earth magic at best. They have no tech, which is her area of interest, and I somehow doubt that earth magic would be a good proponent in magitech (unlike fire and lightning, rocks don’t give good energy, I guess).

Of course the Centaurs are a much less likely scenario and it’s not really clear when their leader is really killed, but about their tech, Flame Legion lacked it too and that’s why she teamed them with Dredge.

Earth magic can be a very good way to get metals and minerals, idk, there are always uses you could give to anyone talent. But probably a less likely scenario (I think that part could see more exploits during a possible bandits+WM storyline instead).