Guild Wars 2

I wrote a post about Logan on my guild forums and my guild leader told me that I should post the link on the official forums. I tried to copy and paste the text to this post, but I went over on the character limit. Please clink this link and read my post about why Logan feels like a weak character. I’m currently working on a second post that will detail my idea for a living story arc that would turn Logan (and Jennah) into great characters and give them some amazing lore.

I hope you enjoy my post. (Again, sorry I couldn’t enter the text here.)

I have to confess I did not read all of your post, it’s a little bit long for me to work through in my present tired state. But I definitely agree with what I did read.

I think Kieran is actually a really good example of what they were going for with Logan, they just never got there. He’s such an unlikable character for me and I feel like a lot of this comes down to him not actually ever being redeemed (in my opinion). It’s sort of like they tried to introduce a ton of character flaws to make him more likable – but then never actually extended him beyond his flaws.

He’s a disgrace of a guardian and far to smitten by the queen to be worthy of fighting Zaitan or any other dragon…

Also what FlammingFoxx said above

It’s disappointing that a great voice actor like Troy Baker would be pushed into such a bad role.

Logan doesn’t act like a Captain of the Royal guard, a man who could romance a queen, or an experienced warrior who has fought battles against dragons and their minions. He acts like a teenage kid who has fallen out with his sports team because he decided to spent time with his girlfriend instead of training.

Its like some guardian in your dungeon party leave middle of final boss fight to go help another party.

Holy image-meme heavy post there. It makes it hard to focus on the text when the first post is broken up “one line, one image meme”. And it does trigger my “don’t take this post seriously” response, which I managed to get over.

The thing is, Logan Thackeray behaves erratically and unevenly because I’m half convinced one writer alone was not responsible for all the scenarios in the Personal Story. If that’s the case then you have umpteen different interpretations of his character being made canon to the story. No wonder he comes off as he does.

Overall, there are three burning questions about him:

- How old is he? If he’s young enough, then his behavior is understandable as someone too lacking in life experience to have a stable grasp. If he’s less than thirty years old, I’d say there’s a good chance he doesn’t even know his own mind on this.

- Does he really love Jennah or is he simply afraid of failing her? This is more important. His brother died protecting her, and he decided to take up his brother’s place. Is he more worried about failing to honor his brother’s memory and honor than in love with the queen?

- Does Jenna love him, or is she trying to break him off without breaking his soul? Jenna can’t be blind to how he feels. But almost always when she pushes him away, she’s appealing to his sense of duty over a personal attachment to her. It could be she’s trying to let him know she doesn’t love him, but still cares about him. Without driving him to just throw down his post and desert.

There’s one considerable hurdle as well:

No matter what the writers do to try to “fix” this character, nobody will ever let it go away. They’re not going to let Logan be anything other than “that useless NPC Guardian”. Frankly, it’s weird because in my Personal Story? He never died unless it was a total wipe. Never. I never had to scrape him off the ground as often as I did Rytlock in my charr’s storyline. How other people had different experiences to that degree I don’t know.

Logan failed the biggest at the Jubilee, when he managed to protect one child only instead of all the evacuees. Come on, he’s a super-powerful guardian who stopped and turned a hail of bullets of an entire charr warband into rust, protecting himself and his companions. No way he couldn’t put up a shield of absorption bubble enveloping most of the civilians at the evacuation point.

But then again, the “writers” forced Logan, Anise, the Shining Blade, the Seraph, the NPCs, the players, and everyone else to catch the idiot ball and hold it as long as needed, so they could force down their abominable pet Scarlet’s “superiority” on everyone’s throats. I hope the story will go 18+ when it comes to slaughtering Scarlet in the most disturbing way.

I’m imagining scenes from Silent Hill in Thal’s description of the “disturbing ways” we kill Scarlet.

Lol @ the idiot ball reference (Yay TV tropes!) I think Thalador nailed it

The more I read about Logan’s backstory the more I’m ashamed to have him as the face of humanity.

So Ebonhawke, a fortress full of elite soldiers, is being assaulted by Kralk’s minions. At the same time, Destiny’s Edge, six of Tyria’s strongest heroes, are assaulting Kralk himself, the source of the minions. The dragon assault is clearly more important and with those numbers they desperately need all six there. And Logan and Jenna both think it’s a good idea for him to go running back to Ebonhawke.

They’re perfect for each other. Perfect morons.

That was a great read, thank you.

I actually like Logan, but a lot of my love comes from head-canoning. Here’s what I think the problem is:

The whole thing with Jennah. It doesn’t feel like a love story; she is always so cold and distant that I am sure the “love”, if it is true, is one-sided. Jennah’s bonding spell is way too suspicious to me and I can’t be convinced Logan is that much in love all by himself. The “runaway coward” comments from the community bother me because they completely disregard the fact it was the Queen’s doing, that he had no choice. The Jubilee speech is proof enough that she doesn’t deem him important enough to know the plans – why would she keep safety measure plans from him, when protecting her – and everyone else in Divinity’s Reach, for that matter – is his job?

So basically, I don’t believe in the ~true love~ story and I think they should clarify the whole magical bond thing as soon as possible, clarify what is really going on between them, and allow both characters to move on. Right now Jennah is very secretive and dismissive, Logan seems irritated by the whole thing, and so are the players… dragging it on and on is just going to make things worse.

I’m pretty certain that Ree had mentioned the spell bond and that it merely connected them, allowing her to communicate with him. It was in no way, shape or form a mind-control system. It was just a scenario where he had to choose between trying to save his love or risking her. He chose what he saw as the lesser of two evils. He could live with himself if the dragon survived but she did too. He couldn’t live with himself if they killed the dragon, but she died in the process. Sure it may be selfish, but it is also very human.

I’ll look it up, but if it’s true, then both of them are acting really kitten childish about the relationship – what happened to talking it through, like adults do…?

I agree that his action was very human and understandable, spell or no spell, though the portrayal of what happens afterwards should have been handled differently.

I think a vast majority of the separation seen in game is politics. From what I’ve heard, during one of the personal stories she actually admits to loving Logan, but is unable to show it publicly because of a multitude of reasons. Being unmarried as a royal opens you up to marriages for power/stability, and marrying a commoner could degrade the way that the nobility look at her. I agree that it may not have been explained/shown in the proper way, but a lot of it does make sense. It reminds me a lot of Dune, in the sense that there is always a lot more love between the main characters and their concubines than their own wives, who are merely means to more power.

Regarding his move from leather to plate, it’s the same thing Kieran did (I believe Kieran’s swap was intended to honour Logan’s position as guardian, I do think it’s strange they repeated it in Edge of Destiny).

Logan is too defined by Destiny’s Edge and Queen Jennah. They keep writing him like he’s terrible at his job and he’s annoying and weak when he’s around the Queen. Solution? Give him his autonomy back. Send him to Ebonhawke. Increasing hostility with the rebels and instability in Ebonhawke threatens the peace between humans and charr. Logan goes to deal with it, gets in touch with his ancestry and his legacy and decides to quit the Seraph, ditch the Queen and join “his” people.

Logan’s ancestry is very prominent. Two Ascalonian heroes who founded Ebonhawke. Ebonhawke and it’s relevant figures are someone under-represented in the story given how prominent this part of the world is to GW1 players (and it also plays into the charr story). I’d like to see a story where Logan leaves Kryta, leaves the Seraph and leaves the Queen. He takes on the mantle of the leader of Ebonhawke in honour of his lineage.

Use the Living Story to remove him from Kryta, kill the inane love story. Set up Samuelsson as Jennah’s political match (Krytan and Ascalonian royal lines merged, although I heard it’s happened before) and set Logan up in Ebonhawke as a soldier/leader. Ebonhawke would believably rally under the ancestor of Kieran and Gwen. Have him work on the treaty with the charr – something I’d like to see the Living Story deal with anyway and as a Krytan Jennah isn’t as credible when it comes to Ebonhawke (spend some time there, the conflict is very personal). This allows him to repair his relationship with Rytlock at the same time. Once that’s done, the story is set up to move into the Crystal Desert expansion and Logan’s true redemption, Kralkatorrik. Fighting behind enemy lines is what the Ebon Vanguard are known for, under Logan’s leadership there could be some nice parallels with GW1 in the Crystal Desert.

The biggest problem with Logan is his relationship with Jennah. She undermines him as a character, his decisions are about her, his actions betray other priorities for her (at her bequest, she called for his help) and keeping him around her in Kryta is stopping him from growing as a character. Give Jennah the political pairing she wants and give Logan the freedom to be a hero of Tyria befitting of his legacy.

The main difference between Logan/Jennah and Kieran/Gwen is the latter is just better portrayed and much more fleshed out. But they both are relatively adolescent in their style and content, like teen dramas.

With Hearts of the North, half of the time is spent with Miku laboriously trying to get Kieran to grow up and just be a man. The other half with Gwen being a “woe is me” brat to him so many times you just want to walk away from it. It’s like Saved By the Bell in a fantasy setting. The Koss/Melonni/Tahlkora relationship was much more believable and better written.

With GW2, Logan and Jennah are not likable mainly for two related reasons: Logan because he doesn’t have a spine and Jennah because she wears the proverbial pants in the relationship. If they want players to like Logan they need to have him snub her and go his own way. If they want players to like Jennah, they need to make her appear genuinely remorseful; both for indirectly getting Snaff killed, and for treating Logan so indifferently. And if they are wary of a potential issues with her position as Queen and Logan’s as a Seraph Captain, then end it. Their duties to Kryta and Tyria are invariably more important than their personal feelings.

Shiren.9532:

Regarding his move from leather to plate, it’s the same thing Kieran did (I believe Kieran’s swap was intended to honour Logan’s position as guardian, I do think it’s strange they repeated it in Edge of Destiny).

Logan is too defined by Destiny’s Edge and Queen Jennah. They keep writing him like he’s terrible at his job and he’s annoying and weak when he’s around the Queen. Solution? Give him his autonomy back. Send him to Ebonhawke. Increasing hostility with the rebels and instability in Ebonhawke threatens the peace between humans and charr. Logan goes to deal with it, gets in touch with his ancestry and his legacy and decides to quit the Seraph, ditch the Queen and join “his” people.

Logan’s ancestry is very prominent. Two Ascalonian heroes who founded Ebonhawke. Ebonhawke and it’s relevant figures are someone under-represented in the story given how prominent this part of the world is to GW1 players (and it also plays into the charr story). I’d like to see a story where Logan leaves Kryta, leaves the Seraph and leaves the Queen. He takes on the mantle of the leader of Ebonhawke in honour of his lineage.

Use the Living Story to remove him from Kryta, kill the inane love story. Set up Samuelsson as Jennah’s political match (Krytan and Ascalonian royal lines merged, although I heard it’s happened before) and set Logan up in Ebonhawke as a soldier/leader. Ebonhawke would believably rally under the ancestor of Kieran and Gwen. Have him work on the treaty with the charr – something I’d like to see the Living Story deal with anyway and as a Krytan Jennah isn’t as credible when it comes to Ebonhawke (spend some time there, the conflict is very personal). This allows him to repair his relationship with Rytlock at the same time. Once that’s done, the story is set up to move into the Crystal Desert expansion and Logan’s true redemption, Kralkatorrik. Fighting behind enemy lines is what the Ebon Vanguard are known for, under Logan’s leadership there could be some nice parallels with GW1 in the Crystal Desert.

The biggest problem with Logan is his relationship with Jennah. She undermines him as a character, his decisions are about her, his actions betray other priorities for her (at her bequest, she called for his help) and keeping him around her in Kryta is stopping him from growing as a character. Give Jennah the political pairing she wants and give Logan the freedom to be a hero of Tyria befitting of his legacy.

If only the devs paid attention to posts like this….

It’s sad but at this point I honestly doubt that the living story will ever focus on plots like this, it’s like they don’t realize the potential the living story has if done correctly.

jayb.1329:

It’s sad but at this point I honestly doubt that the living story will ever focus on plots like this, it’s like they don’t realize the potential the living story has if done correctly.

I’d say they know what potential it has, and didn’t want to rush into big changes first.

It doesn’t have to be big changes or a rush. The world is set up for it already.

The humans are losing the war with the centaurs. After a big loss (Fort Salma is destroyed) Minister Caudecus criticiseses the Queen for supporting Ebonhawke when Kryta is in dire straights. All of Kryta’s resources should be going to protecting her own people, withdrawing support for Ebonhawke would also make talks with the charr easier (Caudecus doesn’t care about this, he just want to hit the Queen with it). Faced with losing support from the people and the council and possibly the war with the centaurs, the Queen decides to cut ties to Ebonhawke. Logan can’t accept that, those are his people, his family’s legacy, so he quits and leaves the Queen. This change in Kryta is big enough to make Logan question his dedication to it, a believable betrayal of Ebonhawke and a revival of Logan’s pre-Seraph identity.

Things get real bad in Ebonhawke. Without the Fallen Angels or supplies from Kryta, the city is divided and overthrown by Separatists. In attempts to replace the supplies from Kryta, Separatists become more aggressive in charr territory, kittening off the Black Citadel.

Working from behind the scenes (with the support of the Order of Whispers and Elonians wanting to maintain the door to the Crystal Desert) Logan and a few free Ebon Vanguard form an elite unit, giving hope to the oppressed people of the city by reviving legends of the Ebon Falcons, Kieran Thackeray’s unit that helped found the city 250 years ago. Ebon Vanguard propaganda starts appearing in Ebonhawke and Ascalonian settlements in Kryta.

Insert series of events showing Logan’s unit saving the charr from Separatists, Separatists swapping sides (characterise them with believable and representative villains, showing the depth of that conflict beyond “these are the bad guys hurr durr”), grandstanding villain at prisoner execution disrupted by the Ebon Vanguard etc. Mix in some charr rebels as well. Finish with a joint Vanguard/charr assault, retaking Ebonhawke and Logan refusing to hand it over the charr.

Follow it up with Logan beginning scouting missions into the Crystal Desert. His new allies help reforge Ebonhawke as a bastion at the edge of an Elder Dragon’s domain. When the Crystal Desert does open up, Logan is now positioned to proceed with his redemption.

Give Logan a makeover. Think less “Disney prince” and more “Sparatcus, rebel gladiator” from the Starz TV series. Ditch the Seraph armour (he’s not one any more) and give him some new gladiator/Ebonhawke themed armour. Less steel, more leather, maybe even some exposed skin (it’s hot in the Crystal Desert), he is a gladiator after all. Give him back his hammer (everyone loves free protection from NPC auto-attacks) or finally give him Magdaer (how long to norn smiths take?). Give him a hair cut and some stubble, he’s not trying to woo the Queen or play politics in the city, he’s a soldier on the front lines in daily skirmishes, no need for long locks and daily grooming. His appearance should help characterise his new life and how different it was from his cushy job in Kryta.

I’m really glad the OP pointed out how different Logan was in the game from how he was before he met the Queen in the book. I’m really interested to see what their proposal for how to turn him into a great character again looks like.

“Give Logan a makeover. Think less “Disney prince” and more “Sparatcus, rebel gladiator” from the Starz TV series.”

I think here we see how the storytelling has failed. In my opinion Logan is meant to be a knight in shining armor, saving the maiden from harm, with the complications surrounding Jennah always getting in the way. There are always consequences and he can’t just ‘do the right thing’. The story doesn’t show him as the old fashioned male hero struggling with modern feminism though, the writing isn’t good enough so he just looks like a wimp.

Honestly i think logan is a great charachter, got a sore history but still got a warm heart and is a mighty guardian, and even comes with some funny lines.
Example: "As a seraph captain i cant shout Pick me! Pick me! But i can certainly think it "

Shiren.9532:

-snip-

Wow…that’s actually a really well thought-out scenario. Kudos.

Shiren.9532:

—snip—

THIS is exactly what ANet needs to be doing with the living story. This would get me excited about things again. We need to be using the LS to resolve things that in other, more static MMOs would be stuck in time forever, when sensibly they should be moving forward.

Problem is, the centaurs are on the verge of collapse. What we see in-game (the raid on Shaemoor, the incursion into Kessex and Gendarran) is their final, desperate last-ditch effort to the turn the tide. However, when Krytan retaliation reaches the Hinterlands and strikes at the heart of the Modniir leadership, slaying the warking for good (let’s forget the horrible implementation thanks to the dynamic events… it should’ve been a human personal story thing, a dungeon, or an instanced raid), their war machine is doomed. The tribes fight on out of desperation or fear of the Modniir, but their sole reason for choosing struggle over surrender/withdrawal is because they have nowhere to go. Jormag rules the north and the Maguuma is dry wasteland. They can pick between eradication at the humans’ hands or a slow extinction in unforgiving terrains.

Oh, plus what Outcast Qindova says.