What they're afraid of?! (Spoilers)

What they're afraid of?! (Spoilers)

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Posted by: Kossage.9072

Kossage.9072

While watching the recent episode of Guild Chat about LW S3 Episode 5: Flashpoint, at one point the discussion turned to the “Heart of the Volcano” instance and the fight against Balthazar’s hounds there. During that discussion Link Hughes, who had worked on said story instance, suddenly mentioned something very intriguing about the human gods in what could have been a “blink and miss” moment for many. I’ll provide the statement and the context around the sentence below:

Link Hughes

So the fight is about trying to figure out how do you circumvent the immortality of a god. The only thing gods, that we’ve established, are afraid of at least in Guild Wars 2 are Elder Dragons, right? And you’ve got this machine that’s basically hoovering up Elder Dragon energy and then feeding it to the other dragon, so if we can just fool the machine into thinking that they [the hounds] are part of the Elder Dragons, then it will vacuum them up and deliver them into the maw of destruction. (Source, timestamp 29:01) [emphasis mine]

Needless to say, that casual remark-turned-lore-bomb about the Six being afraid of the Elder Dragons left me quite stunned. Another intriguing statement from Link was discussing the art shift of Primordus in GW2 and whether the Primordus seen in GW1 was actually Primordus or just its champion given the apparent ambiguity(?) of the model. The guild chat is definitely worth a watch for the lore discussion alone and Link Hughes’s and Aaron Roxby’s insightful comments in it for those interested.

Link’s been a Game Designer at ArenaNet since 2013, so he’s no newbie when it comes to the game’s setting and story and would know quite a bit about the ins and outs of the overall GW2 narrative that we as players aren’t privy to. His rather casual, off-hand and confident mention of the whole god stuff doesn’t seem like a mistake; maybe it hints at what direction we might go for expansion 2 etc. if the gods are to play a part in it one way or another along with an Elder Dragon or two. Yet I don’t recall ever seeing any hint (or any established fact) in core game about the gods being afraid of the Elder Dragons given the lore answers we’ve received earlier in Dolyak Express and elsewhere unless I’ve missed something during my years exploring Tyria.

So, what do you think of these intriguing dev statements from the recent Guild Chat? Does this reveal mean that the reason for the gods’ departure from Tyria, or their silence since, may have actually been far more complex than Jeff Grubb’s reply from a while back initially led us to believe? Will this be a plot point to be explored more in expansion 2 or in Living World Season 4 now that the gods’ influence is felt in the Guild Wars narrative again?

(edited by Kossage.9072)

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Posted by: Pax.3548

Pax.3548

wow, that little remark is indeed very important, but well the elder dragons are no weak things neither, they exterminate all life in the planet each cycle so the gods must’ve been wary of them at least (especially knowing that dragons eat magic and gods are, in essense, magical beings). This could explain why the gods didn’t return to tyria after their exodus or even why did their influence diminished over the centuries.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Given the context and phrasing, that remark doesn’t really sound like the gods are afraid of the Elder Dragons to me, but rather that the only thing established in the game series that they might be afraid of is the Elder Dragons.

Though I fail to see why gods capable of altering the landscape of Tyria while trapped in the heart of another dimension while imprisoned and weakened, who rule/have influence over the very center of the multiverse, could possibly be afraid of beings only capable of altering the immediate area surrounding themselves and their minions and are very much limited to just Tyria.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Maybe I’m being a grognard, but I’m inclined to say that someone who came in after GW2 released IS a newbie. Plus, we’ve seen people with the Game Designer title making slips before. I wouldn’t read more into that, in isolation (I haven’t seen the GuildChat yet, when live it’s at an awkward time for me and the VOD takes a little bit to come up) than what we already know – the power of the dragons is such that a god taking one on directly has a good chance of losing, and possibly being eaten.

That does suggest that either they don’t have anything on the horizon planned that might be threatening the gods, or that if they do, they’re keeping it under wraps. Which is a bit disappointing, because without some bigger threat which might explain Balthazar’s behaviour, it makes it more likely that they’ve just thrown Balthazar under the bus just because they wanted a twist.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

Risen Priestess of Lyssa: Zhaitan will devour you, just as he devoured our gods.
Risen Priestess of Lyssa: My goddess was mere prey for the dragon. Despair!

Farnax, High Priestess of Lyssa: Zhaitan eats gods!

Remember this?

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Posted by: Fluffball.8307

Fluffball.8307

Though I fail to see why gods capable of altering the landscape of Tyria while trapped in the heart of another dimension while imprisoned and weakened, who rule/have influence over the very center of the multiverse, could possibly be afraid of beings only capable of altering the immediate area surrounding themselves and their minions and are very much limited to just Tyria.

The human gods ruling the mists seems a bit far fetched. When you account for all the human propaganda, we don’t actually know that much about the gods. We don’t really know enough about the mists and EA and so on to speculate on how things work; I think that’s what the next expac is going to delve into.

The mursaat probably know 10 times as much about the gods and the mists than we do.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Risen Priestess of Lyssa: Zhaitan will devour you, just as he devoured our gods.
Risen Priestess of Lyssa: My goddess was mere prey for the dragon. Despair!

Farnax, High Priestess of Lyssa: Zhaitan eats gods!

Remember this?

ArenaNet uses the unreliable narrator, the Risen aren’t exactly unbiased, mesmers are known for mind games and deception, and NPCs in-game directly laid doubt on those lines. I don’t think they have any credibility.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Sykper.6583

Sykper.6583

Given the context and phrasing, that remark doesn’t really sound like the gods are afraid of the Elder Dragons to me, but rather that the only thing established in the game series that they might be afraid of is the Elder Dragons.

Though I fail to see why gods capable of altering the landscape of Tyria while trapped in the heart of another dimension while imprisoned and weakened, who rule/have influence over the very center of the multiverse, could possibly be afraid of beings only capable of altering the immediate area surrounding themselves and their minions and are very much limited to just Tyria.

I really don’t want to apply a tin-foil hat here, but there’s a stinging vibe about the Elder Dragons that maybe has some influence over the Gods.

Thinking on it more, why would the six not take action against the Elders way sooner? Certainly the Gods knew the Dragons existed even prior to leaving. There’s probably some natural force at work that we, as player characters, are unraveling by killing them off, contrary to the six gods who saw that killing the Elder Dragons would be to their disadvantage.

Albeit, at this time Balt doesn’t care anymore for the world, but that implies that whatever the Elder Dragons are doing to keep a sort of balance on Tyria is needed before they can be killed outright like we have been doing.

I know it’s a bit outside of this thread, but I have a firm belief that a different God (Lyssa or Kormir) will reveal themselves and tell us of why Balt is behaving in this manner, why the Elder Dragons shouldn’t just be killed, and that will lead us into the next story arc.

…At least that is what NEEDS to happen in order to cope with the recent reveal.

Suicidal Warrior.
Putting Perspective on Zerg Sizes since 2012. Common Suffixes for 40+ include ~Zilla and ~Train
“Seriously, just dodge.”

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Posted by: Slowpokeking.8720

Slowpokeking.8720

Risen Priestess of Lyssa: Zhaitan will devour you, just as he devoured our gods.
Risen Priestess of Lyssa: My goddess was mere prey for the dragon. Despair!

Farnax, High Priestess of Lyssa: Zhaitan eats gods!

Remember this?

ArenaNet uses the unreliable narrator, the Risen aren’t exactly unbiased, mesmers are known for mind games and deception, and NPCs in-game directly laid doubt on those lines. I don’t think they have any credibility.

They have credibility now after what happened.

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Posted by: Muchacho.2390

Muchacho.2390

Risen Priestess of Lyssa: Zhaitan will devour you, just as he devoured our gods.
Risen Priestess of Lyssa: My goddess was mere prey for the dragon. Despair!

Farnax, High Priestess of Lyssa: Zhaitan eats gods!

Remember this?

ArenaNet uses the unreliable narrator, the Risen aren’t exactly unbiased, mesmers are known for mind games and deception, and NPCs in-game directly laid doubt on those lines. I don’t think they have any credibility.

They have credibility now after what happened.

What do you mean?

Balthazar didnt seem really afraid or even angry at the elder dragons. To me he sees them more like a big magic source. Whoever weakened him i highly doubt it was an elder dragon.

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Posted by: Walhalla.5473

Walhalla.5473

Risen Priestess of Lyssa: Zhaitan will devour you, just as he devoured our gods.
Risen Priestess of Lyssa: My goddess was mere prey for the dragon. Despair!

Farnax, High Priestess of Lyssa: Zhaitan eats gods!

Remember this?

ArenaNet uses the unreliable narrator, the Risen aren’t exactly unbiased, mesmers are known for mind games and deception, and NPCs in-game directly laid doubt on those lines. I don’t think they have any credibility.

They have credibility now after what happened.

What do you mean?

Balthazar didnt seem really afraid or even angry at the elder dragons. To me he sees them more like a big magic source. Whoever weakened him i highly doubt it was an elder dragon.

This is what I think. He wanted the magic from the Elder Dragons for himself after he lost his godhood. And I didn’t even see one hint of him being afraid of the dragons. They are just a source and he wanted the right tool to get the magic. ( Army and Commander at first but after he noticed the machine he went straight for it )

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Posted by: Erukk.1408

Erukk.1408

This is what I think. He wanted the magic from the Elder Dragons for himself after he lost his godhood. And I didn’t even see one hint of him being afraid of the dragons. They are just a source and he wanted the right tool to get the magic. ( Army and Commander at first but after he noticed the machine he went straight for it )

Considering how ballsy Balthazar was to pull off what happened in the last instance, I would definitely saw there wasn’t any overwhelming fear there. Because let’s list it…

1) He traveled into the burning heart of Primordus’ domain (an active volcano).
2) Had enough time to set up a big piece of machinery and platform.
3) Proceeded to lure an Elder Dragon, possibly one of the strongest ones considering he was active the longest devouring lost Asuran cities, to his location.
4) Put his entire faith ~rimshot~ into a high tech machine created by a teenager that hasn’t even been fully tested, and stepped into a beam of highly concentrated magical energy.

I would label Balthazar as extremely desperate, but definitely not afraid. At least not enough to handicap him in any sense.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

The human gods ruling the mists seems a bit far fetched. When you account for all the human propaganda, we don’t actually know that much about the gods. We don’t really know enough about the mists and EA and so on to speculate on how things work; I think that’s what the next expac is going to delve into.

The mursaat probably know 10 times as much about the gods and the mists than we do.

I never said they rule the Mists. I said they rule the center of the multiverse – or to be more specific The Rift And you cannot really say they don’t at least have influence there, since the Hall of Heroes houses statues of five of the gods, before Kormir’s rise and after Abaddon’s fall.

And I find it highly unlikely that the mursaat know more – let alone ten times more – about the Mists than the Six Gods, given that the Six Gods had been traveling the Mists prior to and far longer than the mursaat had.

Thinking on it more, why would the six not take action against the Elders way sooner? Certainly the Gods knew the Dragons existed even prior to leaving. There’s probably some natural force at work that we, as player characters, are unraveling by killing them off, contrary to the six gods who saw that killing the Elder Dragons would be to their disadvantage.

Here’s a question: Why should the Six take any action against the Elder Dragons?

Maybe they knew the consequences of killing the Elder Dragons without proper replacements, and such things did not exist? Maybe they had overestimated the amount of time the Elder Dragons would be asleep, intending to take action against them before they woke but they woke much sooner than expected? Maybe they just didn’t care, after all they left the world over a thousand years before the Elder Dragons began to wake up.

I know it’s a bit outside of this thread, but I have a firm belief that a different God (Lyssa or Kormir) will reveal themselves and tell us of why Balt is behaving in this manner, why the Elder Dragons shouldn’t just be killed, and that will lead us into the next story arc.

…At least that is what NEEDS to happen in order to cope with the recent reveal.

We need that revealed, yes, but not by another god. Balthazar can do it, or something else – like an avatar.

We’ll see if it does. Of course, if Balthazar’s actions and why we shouldn’t kill the Elder Dragons isn’t explained, then his actions this entire season would really just be a dues ex machina of sorts – not full out, but close enough to be as bad of a narrative.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Thinking on it more, why would the six not take action against the Elders way sooner? Certainly the Gods knew the Dragons existed even prior to leaving. There’s probably some natural force at work that we, as player characters, are unraveling by killing them off, contrary to the six gods who saw that killing the Elder Dragons would be to their disadvantage.

Here’s a question: Why should the Six take any action against the Elder Dragons?

Maybe they knew the consequences of killing the Elder Dragons without proper replacements, and such things did not exist? Maybe they had overestimated the amount of time the Elder Dragons would be asleep, intending to take action against them before they woke but they woke much sooner than expected? Maybe they just didn’t care, after all they left the world over a thousand years before the Elder Dragons began to wake up.

Up until the current episode, too, I’d have added ‘maybe it’s a test’ to that. The gods might be ready to pull humanity’s fat out of the fire if the alternative is extinction (or they might already have other colonies founded on other worlds to ensure that what happens on Tyria doesn’t lead to the extinction of humanity), but they’re looking to see if humans are able to figure out a solution on their own, potentially including cooperating with other races. Back in the day we had a few dev interviews talking about how the gods regarded humanity as ‘coming of age’ and being ready to stand on their own without the help of the gods.

Even with the latest episode, that might be the case. Balthazar could have gone renegade, for instance. It’s also worth noting that Balthazar said that “your home is a trivial concern” – it’s possible that Balthazar doesn’t consider the humans of Tyria inconsequential as a group, and would have initiated an evacuation if things HAD lead to Tyria’s destruction. Depending, of course, on how much time there was.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Cristalyan.5728

Cristalyan.5728

In my opinion, the six “Gods” are no Gods at all. They are powerful beings having a lot of knowledge about the world, but no Gods.

In many polytheistic beliefs the Gods were created from Chaos by the Primordial (Elemental) forces residing (or composing) the Chaos – see Scandinavian Mythology – the “apparition” of Ymir and the Cow Audhumla / Greek Mythology – Geea and Uranus / Japanese Mythology – Izanagi and Izanami etc. All the Gods were created from Chaos by the Primordial/ Elemental Forces. No God, in any mythology had ever fought against these Primordial Forces.

According to the definition of the Elder Dragons – as being Primordial Forces, nobody knowing when (or if) they were born, it is very possible that the Dragons to be the “source” of the true Gods.

Also, in the majority of polytheistic Mythology the Gods creates the Universe/ world etc. And shows no intention to destroy their own creation. By his attitude (not impressed that the world may be destroyed) Balthazar shows that the actual “Gods” were not involved in the Creation of the world or of the life.

And finally – no human had been “promoted” to the state of God. Because even the Gods cannot create Gods.

So, to answer to the OP question What they’re afraid of?! I think the “Gods” are afraid of humans (or the mortals). I can imagine that after Kormir becoming a “God” what emulation was in Kryta: Any adventurer started to dream about slaying a god and becoming a god himself. Kormir shows that this is possible.

Something is funny :-)) Herakles – the most powerful hero in the Greek mythology, the son of the supreme god Zeus, never dared to face a God in fight. And he was a demigod.
And still, we (our GW2 character) not only challenged a God and survived. But even stopped him in what he was doing?

This makes me think that our “Gods” are not gods. And this is the reason they are afraid.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

In many polytheistic beliefs the Gods were created from Chaos by the Primordial (Elemental) forces residing (or composing) the Chaos – see Scandinavian Mythology – the “apparition” of Ymir and the Cow Audhumla / Greek Mythology – Geea and Uranus / Japanese Mythology – Izanagi and Izanami etc. All the Gods were created from Chaos by the Primordial/ Elemental Forces. No God, in any mythology had ever fought against these Primordial Forces.

Really? Uranus got himself castrated and overthrown by Cronus, who in turn got overthrown by Zeus. In Babylonian mythology, Apsu and Tiamat represented the primordial forces, and the Babylonian gods killed first Apsu and then Tiamat. In Ymir’s case, while I don’t recall off the top of my head how Ymir died or even if that is known in the present time (there are a lot of gaps in our knowledge of Norse mythology – what we know came out of surprisingly few sources that survived Christianisation), the gods used his body to create the world afterwards, and were then at odds with the jotun, which were also representations of primordial forces (albeit younger ones). And that’s just off the top of my head.

And finally – no human had been “promoted” to the state of God. Because even the Gods cannot create Gods.

Imhotep says hi – and, again, that’s off the top of my head.

The problem with coming up with a set of rules to define what a god is and then declaring that something isn’t a god is that each mythology tends to have different rules. In Tyria, the primary religion through which we define the term ‘god’ is the human one.

Now, something has clearly happened with Balthazar that put him into the ‘fallen god’ category, one way or another, and doing so may have changed his priority (note that, while the gods didn’t create Tyria, human mythology says they moved to other worlds when they left Tyria – Balthazar might be unconcerned about Tyria specifically because it’s one of a number of worlds the pantheon has influenced). Whether that reflects on the rest of the pantheon or not… at the moment, we don’t really know.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Cristalyan.5728

Cristalyan.5728

draxynnic.3719

Really? Uranus got himself castrated and overthrown by Cronus, who in turn got overthrown by Zeus. In Babylonian mythology, Apsu and Tiamat represented the primordial forces, and the Babylonian gods killed first Apsu and then Tiamat. In Ymir’s case, while I don’t recall off the top of my head how Ymir died or even if that is known in the present time (there are a lot of gaps in our knowledge of Norse mythology – what we know came out of surprisingly few sources that survived Christianisation), the gods used his body to create the world afterwards, and were then at odds with the jotun, which were also representations of primordial forces (albeit younger ones)

The primordial elemental forces in the Norse mythology are: Muspelheim – the primordial elemental fire and Niflheim the elemental ice. When the ice and fire collided over the abyss Ginnungagap, Ymir and the cow Audhumbla were born.

Uranus and Geea are not the Chaos (primordial elemental force). They were born from Chaos. The same with Tiamat and Apsu – they are Gods born from Chaos.

What you describe here are fights between Gods. Nothing unusual here.

Imhotep – according to all the documents – was a human worshiped as a God of science. This does not make him a God. Because, in North Korea, the leader is treated as a God on Earth. This makes him a God?

draxynnic.3719

The problem with coming up with a set of rules to define what a god is and then declaring that something isn’t a god is that each mythology tends to have different rules. In Tyria, the primary religion through which we define the term ‘god’ is the human one.

Exactly this. We have no rules defining a God in Tyria. And this is the reason we try to figure what a God means, by comparing them with what we know.

Can you point to the set of rules used by humans to define a God?

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

According to the definition of the Elder Dragons – as being Primordial Forces, nobody knowing when (or if) they were born, it is very possible that the Dragons to be the “source” of the true Gods.

Not gonna repeat draxynnic on the “gods come from Primordial forces in real life mythology” bit but we do not know the Six Gods’ origins, we simply know that the current generation does not come from Tyria and as such cannot come from the Elder Dragons.

So to say the Six did not come from primordial forces would be to make a claim on something we do not know. Maybe they are the primordial forces of their world, or maybe they come directly from the Mists which are even more primordial than the Elder Dragons.

I’d also like to extend that there are some hints to say that the Elder Dragons are not primordial forces like you proclaim, but are ascended beings. These hints come in the form of pointing to multiple now extinct or endangered draconian races that were on Tyria ages ago. There may or may not be a relation between the Elder Dragons and these draconian races; if there isn’t, then the Elder Dragons may indeed be Tyria’s “primordial forces” but if they aren’t then they’re little different than the Six Gods but of Tyrian origins and draconian instead of humanoid.

Also, in the majority of polytheistic Mythology the Gods creates the Universe/ world etc. And shows no intention to destroy their own creation. By his attitude (not impressed that the world may be destroyed) Balthazar shows that the actual “Gods” were not involved in the Creation of the world or of the life.

Ehhhh, not really.

Almost every mythology has a generations in their gods. The first generation are just as godly as the third or fourth or whatever. In Norse mythos, Thor is just as much of a god as Odin, but Thor had no relation to the creation of the world; in Greek mythos, Zeus had no relation to creating the world, but was still a god.

On the other hand, while the Six Gods had no relation to creating Tyria, that wouldn’t stop them from having no relation to creating other worlds – or their predecessors having created worlds.

And finally – no human had been “promoted” to the state of God. Because even the Gods cannot create Gods.

Hardly. Apotheosis (“to deify”) is a common enough… trope shall we say, in mythologies and stories in general that it has its own name of Greek origin.

Here is a quick google found list of Greek mythological individuals who rose to divinity – quite the lengthy list for “no one”! Chief among them is the famous Herakles (or more commonly known by the latin variation of his name: Hercules).

And “even gods cannot create gods” is the most silly statement ever, given how every mythology deals with children of gods who are gods (as well as children of gods who are just demigods).

Something is funny :-)) Herakles – the most powerful hero in the Greek mythology, the son of the supreme god Zeus, never dared to face a God in fight. And he was a demigod.

Depends on your perspective. He did deal with titans (generation 2 gods) and had made enemies of Olympians (generation 3 gods), more often out of the ways of Greek tragedy (“bad things happen to the hero even though it’s not the hero’s fault” kind of deal) – most notable being Hera’s hatred of our hero who’s name means glory to Hera. He even defied his own father, Zeus, when he freed Prometheus by killing the eagle that would eat his regrown liver every day.

So while he didn’t go fighting mano e mano to a god (unless you count a drinking contest with Dionysus), he did challenge a god – and survived. He’s also killed more than his fair share of demigods (particularly sons of Poseidon, curiously).

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

Imhotep – according to all the documents – was a human worshiped as a God of science. This does not make him a God. Because, in North Korea, the leader is treated as a God on Earth. This makes him a God?

If we’re talking factual you’d be right here. If we’re talking mythology – which is where you began – then you’d be wrong.

Exactly this. We have no rules defining a God in Tyria. And this is the reason we try to figure what a God means, by comparing them with what we know.

Can you point to the set of rules used by humans to define a God?

The Six Gods have had a fair share of major acts, including but not limited to:

  • Unintentionlly blinding those who look too long upon them
  • Reshaping the world on a massive scale, to the point of being capable of such from another dimension (as shown with Abaddon transforming Tyria during Nightfall).
  • Ruling some afterlives.
  • Having influence over the very center of the multiverse (the Hall of Heroes).
  • Having an indestructible powersource that, without a vessel, would destroy more than just the world it is on (as shown with Abaddon’s death and the story journal entry following such).
  • The ability to deify other beings (their avatars are effectively of demigod status by appearances).

These are just the “confirmed facts” about what the gods can do that no mortal can.

And I’d like to note that at least one other race’s god (the Great Dwarf) – real or not within the scope of Tyria – has that third bulletpoint as well (ruling over the Great Forge).

If we want to add the “proclaimed but unconfirmed” aspects, then you can add in some things very commonly seen with mythological gods:

  • Creation of various species (shared with non-Six pantheon gods)
  • Creating worlds (creation of Tyria disproven by current pantheon, but human legends claims the Six created other worlds after leaving Tyria)

Regardless of this list however, the Six Gods (and the five other probably-real gods of Tyrian races – Great Dwarf, Koda, Zintl, Mellaggan, and Ameyalli) are still called gods by Tyrian standards and by Tyrian standards they are gods. Whether or not they would be gods of Nordic, Greco-Roman, Japanese, Aztec, Babylionian or whatever standards is a completely unrelated topic.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: Cristalyan.5728

Cristalyan.5728

Konig Des Todes.2086

….. but we do not know the Six Gods’ origins, we simply know that the current generation does not come from Tyria and as such cannot come from the Elder Dragons

So, we don’t know the origins of the Six, but we know theirs origin are not related with the dragons :-)) We know or we don’t know ?

Konig Des Todes.2086

So to say the Six did not come from primordial forces would be to make a claim on something we do not know. Maybe they are the primordial forces of their world, or maybe they come directly from the Mists which are even more primordial than the Elder Dragons.

Indeed, this makes some sense. In case of different worlds, with different laws governing the primordial forces, that means the result (the Gods) are different. A God in one world can be a common being in other worlds. That supports what I suggested – the Six are not Gods in Tyria.

Konig Des Todes.2086

Hardly. Apotheosis (“to deify”) is a common enough… trope shall we say, in mythologies and stories in general that it has its own name of Greek origin.

Here is a quick google found list of Greek mythological individuals who rose to divinity – quite the lengthy list for “no one”! Chief among them is the famous Herakles (or more commonly known by the latin variation of his name: Hercules).

The males and females from the list were not turn into Gods by the Gods. They were turned into immortals. I don’t think immortality is enough to make a God (the best example of this is Tantalos who stole the ambrosia, becoming immortal). The Dragons are eternal too. If not killed by somebody they can live forever.
The Nordic mythology have a better description of this: The meritorious heroes earn a place in Valhalla where they can live forever with the other heroes and with the Gods. Live forever …. but not as Gods.

Konig Des Todes.2086

And “even gods cannot create gods” is the most silly statement ever, given how every mythology deals with children of gods who are gods (as well as children of gods who are just demigods).

Sorry, I mean creation. Making a child (even having both parents Gods) doe not means creation. This is procreation. And in this regard I think the rats or the rabbits are the best “creators”.

The set of criteria used to judge the deity of a being is a little bit questionable: – My answers are in italic characters:

Konig Des Todes.2086

The Six Gods have had a fair share of major acts, including but not limited to:
These are just the “confirmed facts” about what the gods can do that no mortal can.

- Unintentionlly blinding those who look too long upon them
Even our character can (temporarily) blind the opponents. A powerful mage can permanently do this. Even looking (for too long) in Sun can permanently blind you. This is not something defining a God
- Reshaping the world on a massive scale, to the point of being capable of such from another dimension (as shown with Abaddon transforming Tyria during Nightfall).
Zhaitan raised the sunken realm of Orr, changing the world on a massive scale. When Kralkatorik retreated to the South he reshaped the world in this path. Not a deed exclusive to a God
Ruling some afterlives.
Did I mention Zhaitan?
- Having influence over the very center of the multiverse (the Hall of Heroes).
???? I don’t understand? How can this prove their divinity?
- Having an indestructible powersource that, without a vessel, would destroy more than just the world it is on (as shown with Abaddon’s death and the story journal entry following such).
Did you see the simulation Taimi performed regarding the result of the fight P vs J? It seems that the Dragons have a powersource that, without a vessel can destroy the world. If it can destroy more than the world, it not matter anymore. We will be dead
-The ability to deify other beings (their avatars are effectively of demigod status by appearances).
I keep my doubts regarding this aspect. A god can create everything bellow him. That means he cannot create a God. So, a human can not became a true god.

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Posted by: Vesuvius.9874

Vesuvius.9874

- Unintentionlly blinding those who look too long upon them
Even our character can (temporarily) blind the opponents. A powerful mage can permanently do this. Even looking (for too long) in Sun can permanently blind you. This is not something defining a God

Our character’s ability to blind is nowhere near the level of the gods. See Malchor who was permanently blinded. We have no instances in the world of Guild Wars where a powerful mage has permanently blinded anyone. Just because the sun can blind you doesn’t mean it is divine because we are not defining divinity solely by the ability to blind others. It is being suggested that causing blindness is a result of divinity, not the other way around. So yes, you are correct that it does not define a god, but this would be just one of the many aspects that collectively cause humanity in Guild Wars to designate a being as a god. Also, curiously, you say God (with capital G) instead of god. I want to point out that to many, God refers to the god of Abrahamic religions which is an all powerful entity separate from the term god which in Guild Wars, humanity uses to refer to one of the Six. You seem to be comparing God with god, which in my opinion is comparing apples to oranges.

- Reshaping the world on a massive scale, to the point of being capable of such from another dimension (as shown with Abaddon transforming Tyria during Nightfall).
Zhaitan raised the sunken realm of Orr, changing the world on a massive scale. When Kralkatorik retreated to the South he reshaped the world in this path. Not a deed exclusive to a God

You are missing the context about reshaping here. The way the Elder Dragons have “reshaped” the world has been a side effect of their rising and cannot be considered as intentional reshaping which is what the gods did. The gods intentionally reshaped the world for its dwellers and/or their followers (evil gods like Abaddon included). There have been non-living entities that have “reshaped” the world like the Elder Dragons. Case in point: The Cataclysm, otherwise known as the sinking of Orr due to the Lost Scrolls. Zhaitan rose Orr but all it took to sink it was invoking a spell from the Lost Scrolls so I wouldn’t call Zhaitan’s feat divine or anywhere close to it. Same with Kralkatorrik whose flight created the Brand. This can easily be compared to the Searing of Ascalon. It reshaped Ascalon but that was also in no way a divine act. Kralkatorrik’s feat can easily be achieved by using the Cauldron of Cataclysm.

Continued below in next post…

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Posted by: Vesuvius.9874

Vesuvius.9874

- Ruling some afterlives.
Did I mention Zhaitan?

As for ruling afterlives, Zhaitan doesn’t really do that. He simply corrupts corpses and they become reanimated with the appearance of undead. They cannot be considered as truly undead (even though they are sometimes referred to as such) since they are just corrupt minions of Zhaitan, no different from the Mordrem (corrupt minions of Mordremoth) or the Branded (corrupt minions of Kralkatorrik). In contrast, Grenth actually rules the afterlife in that, the souls of the dead go to the Underworld, which is his realm. This, by the way, is another point of divinity. The fact that gods have their own realms, while the Elder Dragons all dwell in Tyria.

- Having influence over the very center of the multiverse (the Hall of Heroes).
???? I don’t understand? How can this prove their divinity?

Because only beings considered divine have been able to do that. If non-divine beings had the ability to do this, then even the Elder Dragons would have been capable of it, but the dragons have no such ability.

- Having an indestructible powersource that, without a vessel, would destroy more than just the world it is on (as shown with Abaddon’s death and the story journal entry following such).
Did you see the simulation Taimi performed regarding the result of the fight P vs J? It seems that the Dragons have a powersource that, without a vessel can destroy the world. If it can destroy more than the world, it not matter anymore. We will be dead

Abaddon’s death threatened not just his own realm, but extended out of it and to Tyria as well. The Elder Dragon’s deaths only threaten Tyria.

-The ability to deify other beings (their avatars are effectively of demigod status by appearances).
I keep my doubts regarding this aspect. A god can create everything bellow him. That means he cannot create a God. So, a human can not became a true god.

I’ll clear your doubts right here and right now:

“After the defeat of Abaddon, his power threatened to run out of control and bring darkness to the world regardless of the heroes’ efforts. At this point, the leader of the Order of the Sunspears, Spearmarshal Kormir, who had been given the gift to absorb this power by the avatars of the Five Gods in the Temple of Abaddon, stepped into the source of the power and was transformed into the Goddess of Secrets.” (Source: https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Goddess_of_Truth)

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Posted by: Ardid.7203

Ardid.7203

@Cristalyan, I really think you are enclosing yourself in a very specific and very personal interpretation of the word “god”.

I don’t understand the concept “god” as something so narrow it can’t encompass the extremely diverse levels of power, reach and logic-bending the word “god” is quite frequently used to describe.

Lovecraft’s Chtulhu is an “old god”. Rabbit Brother is a “trickster god”. LeGuin’s old gods are basically trascendental stones… and they are rightfully gods anyway. Christianity’s god has two flavors: one old, impersonal, cruel and angry, and one new, familiar, human and kind. The greek Titans weren’t called gods, however is clear their scope and place in the myth made them gods anyway. In japan, an ancient tree, an illuminated man and a well beloved housefire can all be considered gods. Siddhartha is a well known prince turned sage, turned inmortal, turned something else: he may not have been defined originally as a god, but he is now for many of the sects that follow him.

“Godhood” only have limits within specific settings, and even then they are usually really hard to define. You are trying to apply really narrow, human rules to something defined by its supra human, unexplainable quality.

“Only problem with the Engineer is
that it makes every other class in the game boring to play.”
Hawks

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

So, we don’t know the origins of the Six, but we know theirs origin are not related with the dragons :-)) We know or we don’t know?

We do not know their exact origins, but we know they’re not of Tyria.

Even our character can (temporarily) blind the opponents. A powerful mage can permanently do this. Even looking (for too long) in Sun can permanently blind you. This is not something defining a God

“looking at the sun for too long” is the exact comparison made for the gods. Their divinity makes looking at them comparable to looking at the sun. It isn’t “being blinded by looking at them does not make them a god” but the reverse: What makes them a god results in mortals being blinded by looking at them for too long.

This isn’t an active spell nor is it temporary but an innate aspect of their very existence.

Zhaitan raised the sunken realm of Orr, changing the world on a massive scale. When Kralkatorik retreated to the South he reshaped the world in this path. Not a deed exclusive to a God

Physically moving a large landmass or twisting what is directly in front of you (keeping them highly recognizable) is entirely different from what Abaddon did during Nightfall.

With just a quarter of his power (two out of eight seals that had totally bound all his power), he transformed landscapes into barely recognizable counterparts from another dimension is a very, very different thing.

- Ruling some afterlives.
Did I mention Zhaitan?

Zhaitan didn’t rule any afterlife. He was able to steal a handful of souls from the Underworld, but Zhaitan – like all Elder Dragons – are bound to Tyria. They have zero influence over the Mists and no domains of afterlife.

- Having influence over the very center of the multiverse (the Hall of Heroes).
???? I don’t understand? How can this prove their divinity?

Who but a god could lay claim to the very center of all things, to the very building blocks of reality?

Answer that, and perhaps then you can provide how that doesn’t prove divinity.

Even the Elder Dragons, as powerful as they are, are bound to Tyria and require outside resources to let their minions physically access The Mists, and even those resources – such as norn havrouns borrowing power from the Spirits of the Wild, or high priestesses borrowing power from the Six Gods – cannot grant them unlimited access to the very center of all things, or even to the afterlives.

Gods (both the pantheon of the Six and others) and the Spirits of the Wild are beyond what the Elder Dragons can do. Perhaps not as powerful as the Elder Dragons in some cases (particularly the Spirits of the Wild), but they do things that mere mortals – even mere Elder Dragons – cannot hope to ever accomplish.

Did you see the simulation Taimi performed regarding the result of the fight P vs J? It seems that the Dragons have a powersource that, without a vessel can destroy the world. If it can destroy more than the world, it not matter anymore. We will be dead

As proven with Zhaitan and Mordremoth, their power can exist without a vessel harmlessly. The simulation only showed that if Primordus and Jormag’s powers countered each other, the aftermath would destroy Tyria. She also claimed (not tested yet) that three Elder Dragons’ magic in the world would “overload it” (my phrasing). Both cases are on an entirely minuscule scale compared to Abaddon’s rampant power alone destroying (not overloading with magic) Tyria from another dimension.

- The ability to deify other beings (their avatars are effectively of demigod status by appearances).
I keep my doubts regarding this aspect. A god can create everything bellow him. That means he cannot create a God. So, a human can not became a true god.

Aside from the fact you have no source to claim “a god cannot create a god” (whether talking mythological or Tyrian), you’re mistaking Kormir’s ascension of taking the mantle of a pre-existing god to be making a new god from scratch. This is a false equivalent.

Kormir is not “creating a new god”; it is effectively just a transference.

To end this all, let me say there is only one thing needed to define a god as a god in the GW setting…

And that is: “the writers say so”.

And guess what? The writers have said so.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

The primordial elemental forces in the Norse mythology are: Muspelheim – the primordial elemental fire and Niflheim the elemental ice. When the ice and fire collided over the abyss Ginnungagap, Ymir and the cow Audhumbla were born.

Uranus and Geea are not the Chaos (primordial elemental force). They were born from Chaos. The same with Tiamat and Apsu – they are Gods born from Chaos.

What you describe here are fights between Gods. Nothing unusual here.

Under this argument, the Elder Dragons aren’t primordial forces either – the Mists are.

Imhotep – according to all the documents – was a human worshiped as a God of science. This does not make him a God. Because, in North Korea, the leader is treated as a God on Earth. This makes him a God?

According to Egyptian mythology, yes, he was a mortal and then he was a god. If you’re going to use mythology as your backing for defining a god, you have to accept when mythology throws up exceptions to your rule. And if you’re throwing out those exceptions because they don’t fit your rule, then that’s entering circular reasoning and No True Scotsmen territory.

Exactly this. We have no rules defining a God in Tyria. And this is the reason we try to figure what a God means, by comparing them with what we know.

Can you point to the set of rules used by humans to define a God?

Assuming you don’t have access to genetic data, how do you define a cat?

One could point to a number of characteristics that are usually common to cats, but many of these have exceptions that are, nevertheless, still cats. Sphinxes have no fur, for instance, and Manx cats have little or no tail, but both are still considered cats. Cats are generally considered to be carnivores, but if someone trained a cat to eat a tofu-based diet instead, does that mean it stops being a cat, or does it just mean that cats can live on other diets?

Set the definition to tightly, and you’ll start excluding things that definitely are cats. Set it too loosely, and you’ll start including things like ferrets and dogs that aren’t. Some definitions might even do both.

And then there are things that some cultures have attributed to cats that turned out not to be true. For instance, some cultures believed that cats developed shapeshifting abilities over time – if it was demonstrated that they actually don’t, would that mean that they should declare them not to be cats and start referring to them as small furry carnivores? Or does the understanding of the word ‘cat’ simply get changed to reflect the true reality and you move on?

It’s the same with the gods. In the context of Tyria, the term ‘god’ is defined by what people use the term to refer to – and among the playable races, that means the Six and beings like them. If it turns out that gods do not actually have some of the properties assigned to them, we simply change our expectations of what a god is and move on.

That said, if you must have a set of characteristics, here are a few I might consider, in roughly decreasing order of importance:
1) Has power beyond normal mortal limits.
2) Has dominion (although it might be shared) over some aspect of reality and/or mortal behaviour.
3) Provides some form of afterlife to their followers
4) Is linked to the Mists in some fashion.
5) Can, if they choose, share some of that power with their followers through blessings.

Note that all of these characteristics also apply to the Norn animal spirits, to Raven at least. In fact, the norn consider the animal spirits and the gods to be more or less equivalent, except that while the animal spirits represent animals (obviously) and any abstract concepts they are associated with are linked to that animal, the gods are more directly linked to abstract concepts. Which may be as good a definition as any – a god is a spirit that represents an abstract concept.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Cristalyan.5728

Cristalyan.5728

What we know about the Six?
- we know that we don’t know their origin.
- we know that we don’t know if they created the world.
- we know that we don’t know if they created any world.
- we have no clue what the Mist represents for the Six. We know that they emerged from the Mist and returned into the Mist.

Taking into account all what we know about the Six, we can conclude that the title of God was granted by the humans only based on their power (and knowledge).

I remember the Mursaats. When the humans first made contact with them, some considered the Mursaats to be Gods. Why? Because the humans had no idea of their origin. No idea if they created the world. No idea what business they have in the Mist. And, as the Six, they had something affecting the eye sight: The Mursaat were able to became invisible. And, as the Six, they were very powerful and had a lot of knowledge.

I never wanted to argue here with someone. I tried to find an explanation for the numerous contradictions related with the Gods and Tyria.

Because, now, we have in the story a mixture of Greek Mythology, Nordic Mythology, Hindu Mythology (the belief that the world is periodically destroyed only to be created again – the dragons destroyed the world several times and the world started again form ashes) and atheism.
Yes, atheism. The idea that a human can defeat a true god and absorb it to became a god by himself is a very atheistic concept. You talk about gods only because this is the conversation subject. But you don’t give a penny on a god or on the concept of god.

The author of this part of the story is (deep in his soul) very arrogant. We are as strong as the gods!. But, reading this statement from the other side, we can say: The gods are as weak as the humans!

If this, what are the role of the gods in this story? They are useless if we can overthrown, absorb, replace every time we want.

And to come back to the OP question: I still think that the gods are afraid of humans.

Konig Des Todes.2086

To end this all, let me say there is only one thing needed to define a god as a god in the GW setting…

And that is: “the writers say so”.
And guess what? The writers have said so.

Here you have absolute right. The writers have said so. They have this right.
Is sad that ANet uses more and more often the argument “it is as it is because we want this”.
But the readers have the right to judge the quality of a writing.

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Posted by: draxynnic.3719

draxynnic.3719

Actually, we know that the gods didn’t create Tyria. We’ve been told by the devs that they arrived on a Tyria that was devastated by the last time the dragons awoke and they made it into something habitable again, but there was a Tyria before the gods arrived.

Do they have the capability to create worlds? On that, I’m going to go with ‘probably’. They appear to have the ability to shape landscapes in the Mists, and Tyria is said to be formed out of the Mists – creating a world is probably similar to creating landscapes in the Mists, albeit on a much larger scale. They may not be able to do so quickly, but I think it is within their capabilities.

Regarding the ability of a mortal to defeat and absorb the capabilities of a god, I have a few comments:

First, we have never fought a god at full strength. Abaddon was still chained when we fought him. Dhuum is a fallen god. Balthazar in the most recent chapter explicitly says that he was weakened… and in his case, we don’t seem to do much more than annoy him before he completes his objective and leaves.

Second, we don’t know that just anyone can assume the power of a god. Grenth was a demigod to begin with. Kormir was mortal, but the Voice of Lyssa speaks of giving Kormir “a special gift” with which she could “make a decision only a mortal could make” – this suggests to me that, while Kormir didn’t know it at the time, the ‘gift’ was the capability to absorb and replace Abaddon. After all, the choice to give up one’s mortality and become a god is not a choice you can make if you’re already a god.

Third, we’ve been told that the reason the gods have taken a hands-off approach is that they want humanity to mature – and to do so, they need to leave humanity to figure out their own solutions to their problems. While this has never been stated in-game to my knowledge and is therefore subject to being changed, this indicates that far from being afraid, the gods actually want humanity to grow stronger.

In terms of general power: the Elder Dragons have been said to have power rivaling that of the gods, which if we flip that around, indicates that a god at full strength has roughly the power of an Elder Dragon. Since we’ve seen two Elder Dragons fall, this suggests that the right mortals working together could bring down a god at full strength as well (possibly including developing some sort of eye protection to protect against the blinding effect?). However, like we’ve been seeing with the Elder Dragons, destroying a god without some plan for the aftermath could well have consequences – in fact, this may well be the entire reason the gods imprisoned Abaddon until a suitable replacement was available.

To those who think Scarlet hate means she’s succeeded as a villain:
People don’t hate Scarlet like Game of Thrones fans hate Joffrey.
They hate her the way Star Wars fans hate Jar Jar Binks.

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Posted by: Konig Des Todes.2086

Konig Des Todes.2086

What we know about the Six?
- we know that we don’t know their origin.
- we know that we don’t know if they created the world.
- we know that we don’t know if they created any world.
- we have no clue what the Mist represents for the Six. We know that they emerged from the Mist and returned into the Mist.

Taking into account all what we know about the Six, we can conclude that the title of God was granted by the humans only based on their power (and knowledge).

Corrections:
- Players don’t know their origins, but only Lyssa is, in universe, stated to have unknown origins.
- We know that the current generation did not create Tyria.
- We know that the Six have the power to reshape worlds from inhabitable to habitable and vice versa, unlike any other being.
- We know that the Six have dominion over parts of the Mists, including the Rift. So while we do not know the full extent of the Six’s relations to the Mists, we know some extent of that relation. Which is far more than ‘no clue’.

And this isn’t everything, either. As was brought up in prior posts. As Ardid.7203 said, you’re working on a very specific interpretation of the word “god”.

And I want to reiterate what drax said: We have never fought a god at full power, despite your claims. Abaddon was at roughly 3/8ths of his power and we only defeated him with the blessings of the other five gods and with chains forged by Balthazar. Balthazar and Dhuum were fallen gods when fought and they were never killed; Dhuum was merely weakened to a point where seven demi-god-like beings could re-imprison him, and Balthazar was never actually fought directly.

So the claim that “we are as strong as the gods” or that “the gods are as weak as humans” is wholly false. A more accurate claim would be “a weakened god is as strong as a group of the strongest humans in the world.”

Here you have absolute right. The writers have said so. They have this right.
Is sad that ANet uses more and more often the argument “it is as it is because we want this”.
But the readers have the right to judge the quality of a writing.

You’re judging the “quality of a writing” by using a pre-defined and alien (to the universe) notion of what makes a god, a definition that not even all real world mythological divine beings can fit in at that, and saying that the definition does fit them.

This is the same as going into a story expecting it to be bad – you’re not going to enjoy it no matter what with such a notion in mind.

Dear ANet writers,
Stop treating GW2 as a single story. Each Season and expansion should be their own story.

(edited by Konig Des Todes.2086)