I don’t understand. Are you saying the franchise isn’t good unless it’s loaded with suicides?
I am channeling the ghost of William Shakespeare right now. He says “Yes”.
I am channeling myself and I say no. What I do say is that the game has a poor track record of showing extreme emotion of any kind. The characters stand still as they deliver their lines, and many times the lines they deliver bear no relation on the mood of the situation itself.
The concepts of charm, dignity, and ferocity are gone.
Daniel maybe we should just have every single NPC kill themself! Would that make you happy? because right now that seems to be exactly what you want. If you want alot of game characters to take their life YOU HAVE A PROBLEM!!!! It is sick that you want a high suicide/depression rate in a game made for people of all ages. You have a sick mind Daniel. Very few people would play a game with high suicide rate. Suicide is a very taboo subject that most games do not like to touch on because it can have a very negative impact on the appearance of the company and the game as well as encourage suicide in the real world. Also let’s not forget that people of all ages and religions play this game killing a zombie or a peaceful chicken or a bandit is far more acceptable among people than suicide is. And i personally would not want to play a game with a high suicide rate especially if those suicides were just from some nameless npcs who were a little depressed! Suicide does not mean a game is good. If you want to see a high suicide rate watch the news! Guild wars 2 is about having fun not watching as your fellow pact soldiers and random civilians take their own lives because of PTSD or depression! People have shown you many NPCs with depression of some form and yet you are not satisfied, why? Would it be better if those NPCs went and jumped off a cliff? Would that somehow make for better storytelling? NO!
Oh my god. The kitten is this post? Its like you didn’t even read any of the posts after the post I responded to. You are so hung up on the suicide part of the conversation. This post has so much strawman, i’ll give you an opportunity to at least restructure this before I respond to imagined arguments.
To contribute a serious post to this discussion, I have occasionally thought about how I would make GW2 different if its reimagining were left entirely up to me. I would give the game strong elements of Lovecraftian cosmic horror. I would replace the elder dragons with a more untouchable, incomprehensible, alien force. The game would feature themes of terror, cults, metal illness, and of course suicide. At this point though, it would no longer be GW2, but a different game entirely. That being the problem of including such themes in a more lighthearted game such as this.
For that matter, does anyone know of an MMO that fully captures the overwhelming terror of our ignorance, our meaninglessness, and the overpowering inevitability of the end times?
If you want a game like that i suggest trying a game called “real life”.
If you want a game like that i suggest trying a game called “real life”.
Well played spartan. Well played.
If you want a game like that i suggest trying a game called “real life”.
Well played spartan. Well played.
Or you know you could play https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_World
Unfortunately gw2 is rated t.
@spartan the game is not for all ages. It is rated t for teens. The same teens who read books like the hunger games. Grow up.
Also let’s not forget that people of all ages and religions play this game killing a zombie or a peaceful chicken or a bandit is far more acceptable among people than suicide is.
That comment in itself is troubling, but not as much as you taking my suggestion to the extreme there should be mass suicides.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
If you want a game like that i suggest trying a game called “real life”.
Well played spartan. Well played.
Or you know you could play https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_World
Unfortunately gw2 is rated t.@spartan the game is not for all ages. It is rated t for teens. The same teens who read books like the hunger games. Grow up.
Also let’s not forget that people of all ages and religions play this game killing a zombie or a peaceful chicken or a bandit is far more acceptable among people than suicide is.
That comment in itself is troubling, but not as much as you taking my suggestion to the extreme there should be mass suicides.
It is far more acceptable, whether you like it or not, and actually not troubling at all, you can’t compare having a close one end their life because of his/her own misery to killing a chicken or a random bandit. Besides like many others said, it doesn’t really add anything meaningful to the story.
People relate much more frequently to the former, others would take it downright offensive, and they’re not gonna risk meddling with traumatic events just so that Daniel Handler can have his realism.
So someone close to you dying is less traumatic than someone random dying?
I’ve had a clasmate who was murdered, and a classmate who committed suicide. They were equally traumatic for the families.
Marjory’s elder sister is killed, please don’t tell me she is somehow less traumatized than if a random stranger killed himself. See how the argument doesn’t work? Sudden death is traumatic regardless of circumstance when it happens to those close to us.
Kasmeer’s father is murdered in prison, he could easily have killed himself in prison, both are equally horrific yet the later is more common to people who are sent to a harsh prison for a crime they didn’t commit. So why didn’t he? Well for one debtor’s prison isn’t a life sentence, we know he loved his children, it wouldn’t make sense for him to do it.
Yet in the history of the guild wars franchise we only learn of malchor doing it. As people pointed out we see Eir come close but then she overcomes it. But suicide and murder aren’t tied to DNA they are tied to human behavior. Suicide is a behavior which can be a symptom of many things, as is homicide, as is any emotion.
So if we apply the same critical eye to the series as we do to kasmeer’s father we have to ask a few questions?
I don’t want to make this post longer than it needs to be but if you want more examples I can provide them. But please realize that what I am trying to emphasize is that gw2 has become about as emotionally moving as Scooby-Doo, the lack of suicide is just part of some really bad aspects of the ambient world.
Also this is my opinion, if you think gw2 is dark enough for your tastes that is fine.
(edited by Daniel Handler.4816)
Somewhat relevant, while many may not agree (I am indifferent about suicide in game to strengthen narrative) I do feel like realistic emotions are….absent. The story mission pre-HoT where you are becoming commander and you mess up and blow your own troops to pieces, the PC feels hardly a shred of remorse, they just shrug that off, how? No one is leaving that situation the same person. Also when you opt to kill Nekandezzar instead of getting the charr pilot, you get there just a second too late, and no one acknowledges or feels guilty about that, the PC and Laranthir say but a few words and move on. When the undead norm Hunter was picking off the people around the PC one by one and you kill him, the PC seems unaffected by the encounter, not shaken up one bit.
I understand you’re supposed to be heroic but heroes have feelings and flaws too, and mainly the one about killing your own troops, I find it hard to accept that that was just a minor set back.
Somewhat relevant, while many may not agree (I am indifferent about suicide in game to strengthen narrative) I do feel like realistic emotions are….absent. The story mission pre-HoT where you are becoming commander and you mess up and blow your own troops to pieces, the PC feels hardly a shred of remorse, they just shrug that off, how? No one is leaving that situation the same person. Also when you opt to kill Nekandezzar instead of getting the charr pilot, you get there just a second too late, and no one acknowledges or feels guilty about that, the PC and Laranthir say but a few words and move on. When the undead norm Hunter was picking off the people around the PC one by one and you kill him, the PC seems unaffected by the encounter, not shaken up one bit.
I understand you’re supposed to be heroic but heroes have feelings and flaws too, and mainly the one about killing your own troops, I find it hard to accept that that was just a minor set back.
This is what I was trying to capture. And this probably would have been a far better intro then asking me asking where the suicide is.
But I agree. Something feels off. Perhaps it is a technological constraint. After all they frequently use the emotes to show emotion.
It doesn’t have to be suicide, suicide was my example because it is a realistic expression to intense situations. But if you move before the suicide example you can see more flaws.
Taking emotes as another example. Look over the list of emotes and tell me if you feel it matches a realistic level of human expresssion.
https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Emote
Things like a /grin would be a good addition to the mix.
Well I’d think a /grin would be too subtle to bother doing, and I mean it seems like the emotes cover basic people interraction, but I definitely see where you are headed with the narrative, and as I said I agree. At this point writing is done but maybe the next LS iteration/ expansion they’d try something new
Content Designer
Suicide can be tricky to implement as narrative device in the best of popular media…on the one hand it’s part of life and not having it in your simulated world can create some loss of fidelity. On the other hand, not only is it a very mature subject that may or may not fit the overall tone of a game like GW2, but it’s really tough to do stories about suicide well…and I actually know something about that, as one of the quests I designed for launch was (in my view, at least) actually about suicide, but I don’t think anyone ever clued in on it because of some self editing I did to leave player’s interpretation of the events open:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Help_Megin_Volkman_search_for_her_missing_son
In this event’s story, I was trying to convey that Samm, the firstborn son of the Volkmans, was a troubled young man despite evidence that he clearly has a loving family. As you follow the mother and her remaining children searching for him, I wanted players to question what happened to this young man. On the surface of it, it really just looks like a mother looking for her missing son, but with these really disturbing underlying questions about why Samm just wandered off into danger with seemingly no weapons and no way to survive…
I went for this subtle approach because I was really afraid that just coming out and saying that “Samm found a particularly gruesome way to commit suicide” would be way too grim for a game with a Teen rating (and probably wouldn’t have survived my initial draft anyway).
I agree that as the game industry continues to mature, any subject matter should be on the table, but it can be really challenging to craft those kinds of narrative moments in a way that doesn’t feel trite or that doesn’t downplay the very real and tragic circumstances surrounding subjects like this.
Don’t think I’ve ever ran across that event.
But Harathi was one of my least favorite zones right behind Fireheart Rise and Fields of Ruin.
Wow Matthew, that is a very careful way of viewing this subject. While it adds depth and tragedy to certain stories, it’s a very delicate subject to correctly add to the game. Nice to know how you go about balancing story.
That was actually a very well done post Matthew; it’s awesome to actually hear a devs take on this, let alone a dev who shared the same mindset. You did offer really good insight as to why it would be difficult to just implement this topic into the story.
Also try to remember that many players will have been personally affected by the suicide of someone close to them, and having to re-confront that trauma while playing a game (games are for entertainment and escapism, remember) is a terrible thing to have to go through.
The problem I see is that many countries have many subjective, obscure laws on “encouraging suicide”, which can take someone with bad intentions to want to make money suing the company.
From a business point of view, I would not recommend further that, unless the Anet is willing to bears cost judicais experts to handle paranoid people will blame the game for the conduct of their players.
Suicide can be tricky to implement as narrative device in the best of popular media…on the one hand it’s part of life and not having it in your simulated world can create some loss of fidelity. On the other hand, not only is it a very mature subject that may or may not fit the overall tone of a game like GW2, but it’s really tough to do stories about suicide well…and I actually know something about that, as one of the quests I designed for launch was (in my view, at least) actually about suicide, but I don’t think anyone ever clued in on it because of some self editing I did to leave player’s interpretation of the events open:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Help_Megin_Volkman_search_for_her_missing_son
In this event’s story, I was trying to convey that Samm, the firstborn son of the Volkmans, was a troubled young man despite evidence that he clearly has a loving family. As you follow the mother and her remaining children searching for him, I wanted players to question what happened to this young man. On the surface of it, it really just looks like a mother looking for her missing son, but with these really disturbing underlying questions about why Samm just wandered off into danger with seemingly no weapons and no way to survive…
I went for this subtle approach because I was really afraid that just coming out and saying that “Samm found a particularly gruesome way to commit suicide” would be way too grim for a game with a Teen rating (and probably wouldn’t have survived my initial draft anyway).
I agree that as the game industry continues to mature, any subject matter should be on the table, but it can be really challenging to craft those kinds of narrative moments in a way that doesn’t feel trite or that doesn’t downplay the very real and tragic circumstances surrounding subjects like this.
Thank you for this post. I understand that suicide is a very grim topic. For the time being is it possible for animators to add to the repetoire of emotes? It would definitely allow for a greater scope of emotion to be shown. Baby steps towards depicting something more extreme.
The problem I see is that many countries have many subjective, obscure laws on “encouraging suicide”, which can take someone with bad intentions to want to make money suing the company.
From a business point of view, I would not recommend further that, unless the Anet is willing to bears cost judicais experts to handle paranoid people will blame the game for the conduct of their players.
They could not legally affect anet in the slighest. Similar cases have been brought against video games in the past. Most have failed.
Wow Matthew, that is a very careful way of viewing this subject. While it adds depth and tragedy to certain stories, it’s a very delicate subject to correctly add to the game. Nice to know how you go about balancing story.
From the core game, but I’m going to put spoiler tags over it just in case:
Eir in Honor of the Waves could be seen as a case of attempted suicide by Svanir, but Caithe talked her down.
Wow Matthew, that is a very careful way of viewing this subject. While it adds depth and tragedy to certain stories, it’s a very delicate subject to correctly add to the game. Nice to know how you go about balancing story.
From the core game, but I’m going to put spoiler tags over it just in case:
Eir in Honor of the Waves could be seen as a case of attempted suicide by Svanir, but Caithe talked her down.
Eh, Caithe didn’t talk her down from going in to try and save the Voice, Eir(and everyone else) went in anyway. The moral of that dungeon story is to not let your failures get the best of you. Eir was still guilt-ridden over Snaff’s death and blamed herself since she was the de facto leader of DE. Caithe’s role here is to try and get Eir to put that behind her, remind her of who she still is, and move on.
It would be a stretch to say that Eir wanting to go down fighting was suicidal, but I suppose technically it could count. Giving up on herself is more apt. But I’d say there’s an important distinction to be made between direct suicide, and wanting to die fighting for a cause…regardless of whether or not you think your death would make a difference.
(edited by Obsidian.1328)
Wow Matthew, that is a very careful way of viewing this subject. While it adds depth and tragedy to certain stories, it’s a very delicate subject to correctly add to the game. Nice to know how you go about balancing story.
From the core game, but I’m going to put spoiler tags over it just in case:
Eir in Honor of the Waves could be seen as a case of attempted suicide by Svanir, but Caithe talked her down.
Eh, Caithe didn’t talk her down from going in to try and save the Voice, Eir(and everyone else) went in anyway. The moral of that dungeon story is to not let your failures get the best of you. Eir was still guilt-ridden over Snaff’s death and blamed herself since she was the de facto leader of DE. Caithe’s role here is to try and get Eir to put that behind her, remind her of who she still is, and move on.
It would be a stretch to say that Eir wanting to go down fighting was suicidal, but I suppose technically it could count. Giving up on herself is more apt. But I’d say there’s an important distinction to be made between direct suicide, and wanting to die fighting for a cause…regardless of whether or not you think your death would make a difference.
This is true. One is an unrealistic romanticism of grief and glory, the other is ugly realism.
For every school shooter trying to go out in a blaze of glory there are countless individuals who kill themselves quietly in their homes. Not everyone jumps in front of trains.
This topic is exceeding morbid. But it’s important that people have some perspective when it comes to the story’s depiction of emotions.
Sadness is not depression, happiness is not ecstasy, pain is not agony, fear is not terror, anxiety is not trauma, anger is not rage.
This why I really hope the animators can add more emotes to the game.
/grin /frown /taunt /disgust /pain /faint /groan /whistle /bored /wink other can probably think if more. But if we could get npcs that didn’t cheer at everything or cower to all monsters, that would be a nice improvement.
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