Guild Wars 2

Would be funny if it was just a different surviving Mursaat. lol

wow, what a plot twist, it’s just another mursaat who wants to violently murder us all

Why would Kormir disguise herself as Lazarus? So GW1 fans don’t try to kill her?

Ardid.7203:

Why would Kormir disguise herself as Lazarus? So GW1 fans don’t try to kill her?

Because if you have a charr protagonist, for example, you would be deeply distrusting of a human god. A mursaat is a more neutral figure, as they are more removed from recent history.

As a separate point, mursaat are not exactly evil but they don’t adhere to the same moral guidelines as humans do either. The reason why they were such great antagonists is that they are morally grey and a bit alien too.

Yannir.4132:

Ardid.7203:

Why would Kormir disguise herself as Lazarus? So GW1 fans don’t try to kill her?

Because if you have a charr protagonist, for example, you would be deeply distrusting of a human god. A mursaat is a more neutral figure, as they are more removed from recent history.

As a separate point, mursaat are not exactly evil but they don’t adhere to the same moral guidelines as humans do either. The reason why they were such great antagonists is that they are morally grey and a bit alien too.

The Mursaat were responsible for the annihilation of the Charr armies, making them an even bigger source of distrust for a Charr than a Human god would be.

It is extremely important to point out that the mursaat are well known in Tyrian society to be antagonistic towards races that weren’t themselves.

In the previous dragon rise, the mursaat actively betrayed the other four elder races to keep their magic, fleeing into the space between the mists and Tyria. There is also everything to do with the White Mantle and even after the events of Prophecies, the mursaat went out of their way to lead an attack against Lion’s Arch. Lazarus didn’t lead that attack because he had split himself into different people, ending with his personal disaster that was the corrupted aspect within Justiciar Naveed that he took back into himself. Basically we have every non-mursaat perspective that shows us the mursaat are not to be trusted at any cost. So why would Kormir, the goddess of order, spirit and truth, disguise herself? She’s the goddess of truth for crying out loud, it doesn’t fit her character nor her domain. And this can’t be a case of Abaddon corrupting her because we have this quote from the first game:

<Party leader>: “Kormir?”
Kormir: “No. Yes. Kormir. And much more.”
<Party leader>: “Abaddon?”
Kormir: “No. His power. His knowledge. But not him. His will is broken. There is a new god of secrets. There is a new day.”

So there is no Abaddon anymore (devs confirmed as much), so it’s just Kormir. And obviously Kormir’s domain has changed over the years, because Lyssa took the water domain away from Kormir when it used to be Abaddon’s domain, so she is now the Goddess of truth.

It can’t be Kormir.

Now onto the OP’s points:

1. do you mean this: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shield_of_the_Goddess ? How does that reference Kormir at all? In fact it’s more of a reference to Dwayna than anything else because Dwayna is the goddess of air AND has wings in many of her depictions. Kormir doesn’t.

2. Kormir and Rytlock wear blindfolds seemingly made of cloth (ironic for a heavy armour profession), it’s kind of hard to innovate on cloth blindfold design. Also Rytlock’s blindfold has a symbol on it where Kormir’s doesn’t. It is, admittedly, a possibility that Rytlock may have met at least one of the human gods (doesn’t have to be Kormir, they all could blind with their divine presence), but it’s also possible something else could have taken his sight (Kormir lost her sight to a demon). However, it’s also a distinct possibility that Rytlock may not actually be blind, though admittedly the chances of that are low. Also, we KNOW the source of Rytlock’s power, the mists. Drawing a connection between Rytlock and Kormir because they both have blindfolds is like drawing a connection between aurene and bats because they both have wings. There’s no connection to be made just because they both wear blindfolds. There’s in fact more of a connection between ritualists and revenants than there would be between Rytlock and Kormir (who was a paragon, not a ritualist), in that both ritualists and revenants wield mist magic and needed to cover their eyes so that they can commune better with their powers (though at least revenants don’t NEED blindfolds according to that lore blog post about revenants).

3. This is an even weaker argument than the blindfold one. First of all, E doesn’t know everything. We see in one of the letters in Caudecus’ manor where E talks about informants and gaining information, we also learn in that same letter that E doesn’t know who the Confessor of the White Mantle was at the time. So that automatically debunks your E/Kormir connection.

You also at no point claim any connection between Lazarus and Kormir, which makes your entire post fall apart. Lazarus cannot be any previously established benevolent character in Guild Wars history. It only makes sense for Lazarus to either be Lazarus (whether 4/5 Lazarus or whole Lazarus) or some other malevolent character.

There is no way Kasmeer would have survived the bloodstone explosion.

zolcor.2601:

I think Lazarus is none other than Kormir, the new goddess of truth and secrets. Here is why I think this.

1. The Shield of the Goddess is a possible clue
2. Both Kormir and Rytlock wear similar looking blindfolds. If so Rytlock may have met her in the mists and was blinded by her divine presence. There could be a strange, maybe even sinister connection between Kormir and Rytlock, which is why he doesn’t want to reveal the source of his Revenant powers.
3. As the goddess of truth and secrets she would know everything. This amount of knowledge fits perfectly with “E” ,and it’s possible “E” ,Lazarus, and Kormir are one and the same.

I fail to see what point 2 has to do with any of this.

E is also very clearly depicted as a human with ties in the Seraph, Shining Blade, and Order of Whispers in Episode 4’s letters. Who also has a very big distaste of the White Mantle, as well as (ironically) receiving anonymous tips. E, as I see it, is basically “good guy Caudecus”, who manipulates both sides of the field in the favor of the people (whereas Caudecus – like Palpatine – manipulated both sides of the field in his own favor). I find it VERY unlikely for E to be Lazarus, given what we know as facts about Lazarus.

And nothing says Kormir would “know everything”. And E certainly does not.

Yannir.4132:

Because if you have a charr protagonist, for example, you would be deeply distrusting of a human god. A mursaat is a more neutral figure, as they are more removed from recent history.

As a separate point, mursaat are not exactly evil but they don’t adhere to the same moral guidelines as humans do either. The reason why they were such great antagonists is that they are morally grey and a bit alien too.

Mursaat are only neutral to the mursaat-fanboy playerbase.

In Tyria, there are two camps and only two camps: White Mantle who worship the mursaat, and everyone else who despises mursaat.

Humans and charr would hate mursaat the most. And charr would probably hate the mursaat more than the gods.

It wouldn’t really make sense for Kormir to disguise herself as Lazarus – plus, what’s her motivation?

And on that second point: yes, mursaat are evil. They committed genocide (of the Seers) to save their own hides, and they were willing to do it again (with Krytans). There’s very little grey about them.

castlemanic.3198:

Lazarus didn’t lead that attack because he had split himself into different people, ending with his personal disaster that was the corrupted aspect within Justiciar Naveed that he took back into himself.

Lazarus had rejoined himself before the battle of Lion’s Arch (and indeed, all of War in Kryta). Though it’s possible he had already resplit himself into artifacts by that point (it being a year after Naveed’s death).

castlemanic.3198:

So why would Kormir, the goddess of order, spirit and truth, disguise herself? She’s the goddess of truth for crying out loud, it doesn’t fit her character nor her domain. And this can’t be a case of Abaddon corrupting her because we have this quote from the first game:

<Party leader>: “Kormir?”
Kormir: “No. Yes. Kormir. And much more.”
<Party leader>: “Abaddon?”
Kormir: “No. His power. His knowledge. But not him. His will is broken. There is a new god of secrets. There is a new day.”

So there is no Abaddon anymore (devs confirmed as much), so it’s just Kormir. And obviously Kormir’s domain has changed over the years, because Lyssa took the water domain away from Kormir when it used to be Abaddon’s domain, so she is now the Goddess of truth.

Well, two things:

First, Kormir is also considered the Goddess of Secrets, for what that’s worth.

Second, that dialogue actually says that Abaddon is still there, but with a broken will. Abaddon is dead… as an individual. And, in truth, so is Kormir – the two merged into one singular being. And while Abaddon’s will “is broken” – broken things can mend. So it is possible for Abaddon’s evil to slowly corrupt Kormir over time. In addition, we have this very eerie line from a tormented soul (same link as above):

“Kormir whispers beneath the world, through the quiet chambers and the dark corridors of reality. Can you hear her?”

And then this prophecy from a mad soul:

“A new god is born! A god that will destroy the others and bring about the end of the world! The cycle begins again!”

And other eerie lines from the mad souls:

“When you walk dark paths, you open your mind to nightmare. Poor Kormir, poor sad goddess raised up to the stars, cursed to see only infinite blackness between them….”

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mad_Soul

All of this post-Nightfall lines these guys have foretell Kormir’s eventual and inevitable descent into madness and evil, repeating Abaddon’s actions.

castlemanic.3198:

1. do you mean this: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Shield_of_the_Goddess ? How does that reference Kormir at all? In fact it’s more of a reference to Dwayna than anything else because Dwayna is the goddess of air AND has wings in many of her depictions. Kormir doesn’t.

Kormir actually does have wings in her depiction, as part of her having been a paragon. Further, Kormir’s colors are white and gold (like her original sunspear outfit), while Dwayna’s colors are blue and gold. Not a hint of blue. Furthermore, Dwayna has a shield – an entire weapon set in fact, and the feathers are very different in design, even from the independent bows.

Shield and spear were also Kormir’s iconic weapons, again due to paragon origin, and the distinct lack of blue indicates “not Dwayna”.

@ konig All of that is super interesting! That actually makes me excited for if we ever learn what happened to the human gods.

Also yeah my bad on the stuff I messed up on.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Kormir actually does have wings in her depiction, as part of her having been a paragon. Further, Kormir’s colors are white and gold (like her original sunspear outfit), while Dwayna’s colors are blue and gold. Not a hint of blue. Furthermore, Dwayna has a shield – an entire weapon set in fact, and the feathers are very different in design, even from the independent bows.

Shield and spear were also Kormir’s iconic weapons, again due to paragon origin, and the distinct lack of blue indicates “not Dwayna”.

I wouldn’t say a distinct lack of blue when the stones that draw the eye to the centerpiece of the thing are blue. It also appears to have ankh imagery at that bit on the top, which was the icon of healing and monks, both tied to Dwayna. For that matter, Kormir’s own wing motifs from her paragon roots were a reference to Dwayna. And, while you already noted that Dwayna weapons in the past have switched between feather styles, I’d also expect the ones that look the most like feathers from wings to be referring to the goddess with wings, not just the one with a patterned metal circlet.

That said, zolcor, I highly doubt the shield has any significance. BLTC skins very, very rarely link to the plot, and the times they do, they still don’t hint at plot twists in advance. For perspective, we’ve had entire outfits devoted to Dwayna, Balthazar, and Lyssa, not to mention the weapon set Konig brought up and another for Balthazar, all without the human gods coming back into the story.

I would argue that three small centerpieces being blue is a “distinct lack of blue” when we’re talking about a goddess who’s coloring is closer to 90% blue 10% gold.

Dwayna’s feathers have never been depicted as white, as far as I remember.

As for Kormir’s ties to wings: On top of her headpiece, there’s her shoulderpiece, and the fact that paragons in general (and this does include Kormir’s skillset) created ethereal golden wings with certain skills.

And I do not recall any statement of paragon wings being a reference to Dwayna.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Dwayna’s feathers have never been depicted as white, as far as I remember.

They’re white here, and on the GW1 costume, gray with a hint of blue here, gold on the Avatar of Dwayna and the default dye of the GW2 outfit, and either gold or blue in the various GW2 weapons. It’s not like they’ve only been depicted in a single color.

As for Kormir’s ties to wings: On top of her headpiece, there’s her shoulderpiece, and the fact that paragons in general (and this does include Kormir’s skillset) created ethereal golden wings with certain skills.

And I do not recall any statement of paragon wings being a reference to Dwayna.

Not seeing the wings on her pauldrons… but that’s beside the point. Looking back at the source material, I did make a leap on the paragon thing, but it was a small one. The only explanation put forth that would relate to the wings is that paragons associate themselves with guardian angels. Angels, from a human standpoint, are to Dwayna what the Reapers are to Grenth, or the various nature spirits we see linked to Melandru- her servants and representatives.

I don’t think it’s impossible that I’m off base here, but I’m hard-pressed to think of any other source for the wing motif- especially with the effects that come out of their back.

The Gendarran mural has hues of blue shading about it, indicating that the white is caused more by bright light rather than actual color tone. I wouldn’t hold much on the costume, since those feathers can be dyed. The Ascalonian mural also shows to be blue but grayed for shading (and fading of color). While the headdress which is armor depicting feathers is gold, the other (actual) feathers on shoulders and the feather-shaped dress are blue in the avatar (same for GW2 outfit).

Regarding Kormir’s shoulderpiece: [I was referring more to the collarbone area. They’re gold in color.](https://wiki.guildwars.com/images/6/64/Kormir.jpg)

It should be noted that Dwayna and Kormir are not the only gods with wing depictions. Grenth has one case":https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/File:Grenth_mural.jpg and Melandru as well.

Point being, while wings and feathers is a major part of Dwayna, they are not solely used for Dwayna, and to me the color pattern says “Kormir” over “Dwayna” as well. Even in all of your examples (exception being the GW1 outfit which is just white and black with gold outlining – an oddball in the group), blue is +*heavily*+_ used for Dwayna, and not simply for a small few gems.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

All of this post-Nightfall lines these guys have foretell Kormir’s eventual and inevitable descent into madness and evil, repeating Abaddon’s actions.

I find that very unlikely, for storytelling reasons. It simply would make a poor and predictable story. If we ever see Kormir again, she won’t be repeating Abaddon’s deeds. She’ll have her own agenda.

Feanor.2358:

Konig Des Todes.2086:

All of this post-Nightfall lines these guys have foretell Kormir’s eventual and inevitable descent into madness and evil, repeating Abaddon’s actions.

I find that very unlikely, for storytelling reasons. It simply would make a poor and predictable story. If we ever see Kormir again, she won’t be repeating Abaddon’s deeds. She’ll have her own agenda.

Also note that most of the lines come from low morale creatures, like mad ghosts and forgotten who have spend aeons in the realm. They might not state the truth of the matter, but rather, an objective opinion or belief of future events.
“Kormir will fall into madness, and repeat Abaddon’s actions” could very well just be a belief (or even a hope) rather than a fact

ok let it be known you read this here first! lazarus is Queen jenna!( champion of kralk) thats BS u might say whats your proof? well lets compare them? they both wear any footwear? both very powerfull and watching the trailer lazarus emitting a mesmer aura? also kasmeer seems to be surprise or know who is lazarus. now lets go back to the novel destiny edge. when destiny edge about to kill kralky its so inconveniently jenna have to call for logan for help. this result in glint and snaff dying and eventually destiny edge disbanding. also jenna creates a illusion of kralky so real even his branded minions follow? or did the branded follow because jenna is kralky’s champion? Boom “drops mic” j/k just wanna create my own theory since i have no clue i still like to blame abaddon for everything!

If Kralkatorrik did convert Jenna into a Branded Champion on the level of Scarlet Briar during the attack upon Edge of Destiny than he is smarter than Mordremoth!

Considering this I assume Kralkatorrik is in Kryta standing on the roof of Divinity’s reach taking full advantage of Jenna’s Chaos Magic to cloak his presence.

In the end the real Lazarus the Dire(who obviously doesn’t need all pieces of himself as seen with GW1) may take advantage of Kralkatorrik stealing Jenna in order to seize control of Kryta and unlike that egotistical Confessor he might be convinced to aid us against the Elder Dragons and explain the Mursaat’s actions.

It could be Snaff. His mind and soul might still be stuck inside Kralkatorrik, but with dragon powers anything is possible.

Lazarus is actually Scarlet Briar… just to enrage the community.

I’m still with the " Lazarus is Lazarus" theory.

The “No it can’t be” reaction from Kasmeer can be a reaction to just everything, it could be Kasmeer seeing that Marjory is with Lazarus etc etc.

But whats really important. First Lazarus doesn’t need all of his pieces to be resurrected or to be himself. Its seen in GW1 where he was there killing people while not even complete.

Second, the one who switched the artifacts was Justiciar Bauer, who was in the end, loyal to Lazarus and not Caudecus, he would never do something that could harm the real Lazarus.

Looking back at the memoirs I think that he even met Lazarus because if this would be Caudecus then his sanity at the end of " Out of the Shadows" wouldn’t make any sense.

2 Zephyr, 1329 AE

Our supreme leader arrived today. We have been ordered to tell no one for fear that interlopers will interrupt his grand plan. The moment of our vengeance is at hand.

This was before the explosion and a few days after that, he talked that there was some ritual being planned. If Caudecus was there he would have been caught by the explosion and there wouldn’t be any possibility for him to keep his sanity at the end of the episode. He clearly arrived after the explosion.

Once the ritual is complete, we can proceed with our leader’s virtuous pursuits!

Virtous pursuits? This is something said by someone else at the end of this episode

Lazarus: The human seat of power and its current monarch are inconsequential. We are destined to face more virtuous pursuits.

The supreme leader Bauer mentioned wasn’t Caudecus. It was Lazarus, he never called Caudecus the supreme leader just confessor.
I would say, the ressurection at the Stronghold of the Faithful was a success but something made it more complicated and I guess that something wasn’t the raiders killing Xera, it was the corrupted aspect from Lazarus, that was still active and weakening him. He needed something to repower himself and probably cleanse that corruption. Something a ritual at the bloodstone could provide. We have enough magic here and if prepared properly, the ritual could make sure that Lazarus wouldn’t go insane by the bloddstone magic.

While I agree that there is some merit to the ‘Lazarus=Lazarus’ theory based on the recovered journals, there are several things that, to me, make this very unlikely:
- The way the PC reacts, without any doubt.
- The way the Story Journal describes the Confessor’s End instance (“Evidence scattered around the manor confirmed our suspicions that the being we know as Lazarus is an imposter…but who is he?”).
- The way the teaser trailer focuses on the issue.

I personally feel it could just as well be a soul that has taken possession of Lazarus’ body at the moment of resurrection, but that is just as much a guess as all the other theories out there.

Inc.4753:

While I agree that there is some merit to the ‘Lazarus=Lazarus’ theory based on the recovered journals, there are several things that, to me, make this very unlikely:
- The way the PC reacts, without any doubt.
- The way the Story Journal describes the Confessor’s End instance (“Evidence scattered around the manor confirmed our suspicions that the being we know as Lazarus is an imposter…but who is he?”).
- The way the teaser trailer focuses on the issue.

I personally feel it could just as well be a soul that has taken possession of Lazarus’ body at the moment of resurrection, but that is just as much a guess as all the other theories out there.

Some of the reactions come because it is assumed that noone can even see Mursaat without being ascended, which is wrong. Mursaat can chose to make themselves visible. ( If the assumption were true then Saul would have never been able to see them, thus there would be no White Mantle )

And what evidence? The letters from and to Caudecus? Bauer told Caudecus that he switched the artifacts, but since Bauer is loyal to Lazarus we don’t even know if that is true.

Also the way the trailer focuses on the issue can also be a distraction.

Inc.4753:

While I agree that there is some merit to the ‘Lazarus=Lazarus’ theory based on the recovered journals, there are several things that, to me, make this very unlikely:
- The way the PC reacts, without any doubt.
- The way the Story Journal describes the Confessor’s End instance (“Evidence scattered around the manor confirmed our suspicions that the being we know as Lazarus is an imposter…but who is he?”).
- The way the teaser trailer focuses on the issue.

I personally feel it could just as well be a soul that has taken possession of Lazarus’ body at the moment of resurrection, but that is just as much a guess as all the other theories out there.

-You have to keep in mind that the PC doesn’t know what we know about Lazarus in GW1. Their knowledge is, at best, coming from the letters. However, given that the PC doesn’t even question Caudecus’ journal indicates that the main plot does not involve the PC reading the journals in Bloodstone Fen or the letters to Caudecus by Bauer.
- That doesn’t really say much, since it ignores/forgets the journals in Bloodstone Fen. And even then, neither the journals nor the letters talk about Lazarus appearing in the full flesh before Justiciar Naveed in 1078 AE in order to retrieve his final aspect.
- This could just be akin to sylvari reveal situation, where so many people had figured it out (though there were plenty of evidence arguing otherwise), but ArenaNet still up-played the reveal to such heights.

Honestly, I think Kasmeer’s reaction is about something Lazarus does – something his goal relates to. A recent, 99.99% likely, fake release yesterday about a part of the expansion is the return of the mursaat race; if that holds any amount of water, then the mursaat returning in numbers thanks to Lazarus (which certainly would be a “virtuous pursuit” of his) would definitely give that kind of reaction. Just one potential example.

Previous trailers have proven to be misleading when character responses are shown. This trailer may be no different.

DarcShriek.5829:

Previous trailers have proven to be misleading when character responses are shown. This trailer may be no different.

surely,
I remember that blonde guy from the trailer for episode 4 with the “theres a moment in life ..” speech.