Guild Wars 2

After you complete the Hidden Arcana quest, when you talk to Ogden, he says:

“We see only certain layers of the Mists, the Elders, and Tyria.”

In that sentence, is he referring to the Elder Dragons when he says “the Elders”? If not, then who or what are the Elders?

Source: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Hidden_Arcana

I took it as reference to the Elder Dragons, specifically in the context of the seven part model we were presented with depicting Tyria as an orb in the Mists with six Elder Dragon orbs surrounding it as if to provide balance.

Context is key.

The entire conversation there is about the All. The previous line is about the Elder Dragons’ placement in the All. Then that line is about ‘certain layers of the Mists’, ‘the Elders’, and ‘Tyria’ in relation to the All.

Ogden Stonehealer: The Eternal Alchemy, nature, our world, the All—however you want to name it—is beyond understanding.
Ogden Stonehealer: We can only grasp portions of it. Even the Elder Dragons are small relative to the All.
Ogden Stonehealer: We see only certain layers of the Mists, the Elders, and Tyria. Anything beyond that is hidden from us.
Ogden Stonehealer: We must content ourselves with first understanding what’s before us.
Ogden Stonehealer: Right now, the Elder Dragons are the most critical to understand.

Given that the entire dialogue is effectively about the Elder Dragons’ placement in the All, ‘the Elders’ has a high chance of refering to the Elder Dragons. I can’t imagine a better short hand beyond ‘ED’.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Given that the entire dialogue is effectively about the Elder Dragons’ placement in the All, ‘the Elders’ has a high chance of refering to the Elder Dragons. I can’t imagine a better short hand beyond ‘ED’.

“The dragons” would probably work better, as in GW2 so far all shown dragons were either EDs or their minions, while Elders could possible refer to the five elder races. However I agree that the context makes it pretty clear that he is refering to the EDs.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Given that the entire dialogue is effectively about the Elder Dragons’ placement in the All, ‘the Elders’ has a high chance of refering to the Elder Dragons.

Yes, given the context one can reasonably say that he indeed is referring to the Elder Dragons. It’s just that I found it strange that the whole time, he was referring to the dragons as Elder Dragons (including in the other dialogue choices we have) in all but this one instance where he says “the Elders” when he easily could’ve just said “the dragons” to remove all doubt. That’s why I was confused.

I was secretly hoping he was referring to something that was yet to be revealed in a future story (perhaps Heart of Thorns).

Kuunavang and the Saltspray dragons and other Canthan dragons are thus far not related to the Elder Dragons, and there’s been minor indications of dragons other than the Elder Dragons – which Glint and the GW1 bone dragons once belonged to.

Usually, when NPCs refer to ‘dragons’ rather than ‘Elder Dragons’ they refer to dragon-shaped champions.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

Kuunavang and the Saltspray dragons and other Canthan dragons are thus far not related to the Elder Dragons, and there’s been minor indications of dragons other than the Elder Dragons – which Glint and the GW1 bone dragons once belonged to.

Usually, when NPCs refer to ‘dragons’ rather than ‘Elder Dragons’ they refer to dragon-shaped champions.

Glint was Kralkatorrik’s minion, only she was in control of her own mind.

Yes, but what was she before being corrupted?

In Arah’s Forgotten path, it is stated that the ritual helped her regain free will – not merely give it, but returned it. This mean she had free will at some point in the past, prior to corruption by Kralkatorrik.

This means she was once a living creature – but what kind? Most dragon minions do not change species after corruption – nothing that once was human, charr, norn, etc. became dragons after corruption thus far.

Glint also laid eggs that became dragons – dragon minions cannot become pregnant (obviously as their bodies are now the elements, or decayed in the case of risen); all cases of pregnancy is from pre-corruption – the fetus/eggs are corrupted as well, and going off of given lore are put into a stasis until they are laid much, much later (best seen with spiders, drakes, chickens, devourers, and chickens). The question becomes, however, are these ‘eggs’ actual eggs – thus was Glint pregnant before corruption, giving birth to corrupted forms of her old race – or are they like the destroyer eggs of the skritt storyline – not actual eggs from sexual reproduction but instead a mockery of them (given same shape and having the same purpose as mobile incubators) that matchest the traditional concept that destroyers are most often rock and lava corrupted into mockeries of living beings (hence why in GW2 we have destroyer trolls, crabs, and harpies rather than the GW1’s ‘destroyer of <term>’ – GW1 destroyers we did not recognize the mocked race because they were ancient and likely extinct).

TL;DR
Glint was indeed a champion of Kralkatorrik – no one questioned that – but she is heavily implied (the ‘minor indications of dragons other than the Elder Dragons’) to be a dragon before corruption as well.

If Glint wasn’t a champion of Kralkatorrik, then it wouldn’t be ‘minor indication’ but fullblown proof dragons other than the ED and their champions.

I’d just like to point out, for the record, that Konig and I have a long-standing disagreement on the question of dragon minion reproduction. Konig’s backing is a line from the Skritt arc of the personal story where one of the mentors states that dragon minions don’t reproduce. This, however, was in the stage where the mortal races of Tyria just didn’t know that much about the elder dragons – certainly before anyone penetrated deep into an elder dragon’s territory – but this could simply have been ArenaNet’s unreliable narrator in action.

The mentor’s hypothesise that a creature was already pregnant when it was corrupted, however, given the number of times we see corrupted egglayers such as devourers and drakes having nests, I think egg-laying dragon minions do reproduce. It’s probably been hijacked to be parthenogenesis rather than sexual reproduction (because the dragon is just interested in getting the maximum strength in minions, and is not concerned about long-term evolution or survival of the species for its minions) but for minions that can reproduce with relatively little time investment of the female minion, I think there’s ample evidence that they do reproduce – or, if you prefer, that their reproductive organs have been hijacked into little minion factories.

Just like champions such as Vinewrath and, it was intended, the Pale Tree produce more minions.

The reason we don’t see that with humanoids is probably because the gestation period is too long to be worth having the mother out of action. A spider can lay its eggs (or use them as a weapon) and still be ready to fight both before and after laying, and the spiderlings also have military use. The same can’t be said for a humanoid mother undergoing pregnancy, or the military value of the baby that is born.

With that aside, going to the original topic:

That Ogden is simply using “Elders” as shorthand for the Elder Dragons is certainly the simplest option. However, I think there is another interpretation: that “the Elders” is Ogden’s term for beings that are on a comparable level of significance to the Elder Dragons. The gods, for instance, may also be “Elders” – something else that mortals may only see certain layers of.

draxynnic.3719:

However, I think there is another interpretation: that “the Elders” is Ogden’s term for beings that are on a comparable level of significance to the Elder Dragons. The gods, for instance, may also be “Elders” – something else that mortals may only see certain layers of.

Thanks for pointing that out. I had that idea of the Elders being these entities on a level that of the Elder Dragons and the Gods floating around in my head but am not sure why I didn’t put it down in words.

Here’s something else to consider. Take a look at this snippet of a conversation we have with Ogden when we first see him in Hidden Arcana:

PC: I need information about how to deal with Mordremoth.
Ogden: Actually, I think you need information about the meaning of your vision from the Pale Tree.
PC: What? How did you—
Ogden: There are those who have taken interest. I had some warning that you might be calling. Your challenges do not go unnoticed.
PC: Who?
Ogden: All in good time. But know that they have Tyria’s best interests at heart.

(Emphasis mine.)

Who is Ogden referring to here? The Elders perhaps? I don’t want to over complicate this topic but is the mysterious E part of the Elders?

It is also possible the Elders gave Glint’s egg to the Master of Peace.

PC: I saw the Master of Peace take an egg.
Ogden: Fear not. He did not steal it. He was given custody of it.
PC: By whom?
Ogden: You know. You witnessed it, didn’t you?
PC: Not clearly.
Ogden: Then you’re not meant to know just yet. All things in their time.

(Emphasis mine.)

Just wanted to add this bit as well. Ogden saying that we’re not meant to know just yet might be a reference to how we can see only certain layers. The PC wasn’t able to witness who or what gave custody of the egg to the Master of Peace because of the PC’s inability to perceive whatever layer the Elders exist in.

draxynnic.3719:

Konig’s backing is a line from the Skritt arc of the personal story where one of the mentors states that dragon minions don’t reproduce.

That’s only a third of it – and actually not even my main piece of evidence for my argument.

The only other mention of reproduction with dragon minions – aside from Glint’s eggs – is an oft-bugged event chain in Straits of Devastation. But this case of ‘minion reproduction’ is of risen fish heads spawning human risen, not the typical sexual reproduction.

The third and final piece of my argument is one of logic: Elements cannot be inseminated.

Branded minions have their insides turned to crystal; icebrood have their bodies (sans bones) slowly turned to pure blocks of ice; destroyers (those made by corrupting living beings) have their bodies liquified.

They literally lose the biological organs required for sexual reproduction.

The same is even true for sylvari, whom are the closest of all dragon minions to being born – while they have the external sexual organs, they lack the internal ones.

draxynnic.3719:

Just like champions such as Vinewrath and, it was intended, the Pale Tree produce more minions.

Just going to note to clear up an old argument had with another person:

Production != sexual reproduction

It’s pretty clear that every dragon champion can produce more minions – methods vary by champion or minion type, but all can produce more minions be it by corrupting living beings or corrupting inanimate ‘materials’.

draxynnic.3719:

That Ogden is simply using “Elders” as shorthand for the Elder Dragons is certainly the simplest option. However, I think there is another interpretation: that “the Elders” is Ogden’s term for beings that are on a comparable level of significance to the Elder Dragons. The gods, for instance, may also be “Elders” – something else that mortals may only see certain layers of.

It’s a thought that crossed my mind too.

The Forgotten refer to the Six Gods as the ‘Ancient Ones’ – the original term for the Elder Dragons were ‘ancient dragons’. So it wouldn’t be far fetched if the Six Gods were once called Elder Gods/Elder Ones by races like the Forgotten.

Vesuvius.9874:

Who is Ogden referring to here? The Elders perhaps? I don’t want to over complicate this topic but is the mysterious E part of the Elders?

It is also possible the Elders gave Glint’s egg to the Master of Peace.

Going off of all the dialogue, it seems that this group is merely a group of powerful and interested individuals.

I think the person who gave the egg to the Master of Peace will be Gleam – the baby dragon we protected in Eye of the North’s challenge mission – and that the ‘they’ is referring to a group that is unrelated to the Orders but fighting the Elder Dragons – including both Ogden and the Pale Tree.

Reason why I include Ogden and the Pale Tree is because Ogden knows of the vision the Pale Tree gave the PC, and only upon being asked how he knew refers to this mysterious group. I expect the group refers to the following individuals:

• Ogden
• Pale Tree
• Gleam
• Master of Peace
• Livia
• E

I’d love it if Razah was included – perhaps M.O.X. too – making it a cabal of surviving GW1 figures.

I’m more curious about who the exalted are.

The Revenant elite specialization comes with a new grandmaster trait called Elder’s Force. Given that the elite specialization is based on Glint, I’m started to wonder if Glint was an Elder. At this point, it looks like the Elders are either the race of dragons that Glint belonged to or this secret group working behind the scenes to protect Tyria that Konig mentioned.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

I expect the group refers to the following individuals:

• Ogden
• Pale Tree
• Gleam
• Master of Peace
• Livia
• E

It’s starting to look more and more like Ogden really wasn’t referring to the Elder Dragons when he mentioned the Elders.

I don’t think the group that he mentioned as watching the PC’s actions as the Elders – the Elders are part of the All, given the context.

I highly doubt that Livia and the Master of Peace – if I’m right – would be part of the All.

As for the trait name – Glint was supposedly close to being an Elder Dragon, and she was very ancient and thus would be called elder.

I think that’s just a case of a generic term being used as part of a pronoun for a group. Like anonymous – trying to link every use of that word to the group Anonymous would be foolhardy.

the mysterious E….E…..is there a character that was an E somewhere in time?

maybe.

maybe he’s referring to Gleam….gleam was never really heard from after GW1….but is presumably still around, and if it has the powers of its mother, is potentially prophetic.

This would give reason to why gleam would have given the master of peace an egg, and would make sense if gleam itself gave the pale tree that vision, or is somehow involved in the dream.

I wouldn’t put it past Anet to have Glint herself be somehow involved in the dream either….

I’m wondering if the elders refers to the remaining members of ancient races? or potentially even the human gods?

The elders are Yoda, Gandalf, and Bob.