Guild Wars 2

If we do clense Orr eventually down the line of the living story, who is the rightful owner? I would guess either the Charr or humans but would that reinstate conflict between them? Charr technically won the fight but it is also the land of the human gods. Or would it be an entirely different deal where it is just open game for everyone. I imagine nations would want the land though given the powerful magic there.

Whoever has the power to claim it and defend it. My guess would be that no one nation can do it. There is no higher over arching law to govern the nations beyond the arbitration of the Pact. It’s just something they will have to descide amongst themselves.

Who in their right mind is trying to settle Southsun?
As for Orr, I’d say that the Pact would govern it first, and decide who can keep it.

Tyria is not like our modern world where every bit of land is accounted for and divided because nations have a great capacity to maintain a large presence due to modern technology.

It’s more like the ancient times where the borders of a city-state lined unclaimed land simply because the borders were the limit to the land that they could defend.

I can see the Pact trying to lay claim to it as they were the ones to fight to get it back, but I also feel the humans would not be leased with this and I don’t think the pact would want fighting amoungst their own given they are a racially mixed military force. Also it wouldnt be much worth the hassle given they don’t really need a whole landmass of that scale. Would just be a waste of supplies to guard it and govern it while their are dragons still to be fought and found.

They could use at a mass production area for airships ;p
And what I was trying to say is that the Pact would be a neutral party with ‘claim’ to it until there’s a time when everyone can actually dispute their right to it.

Dustfinger.9510:

Tyria is not like our modern world where every bit of land is accounted for and divided because nations have a great capacity to maintain a large presence due to modern technology.

It’s more like the ancient times where the borders of a city-state lined unclaimed land simply because the borders were the limit to the land that they could defend.

That’s true of a lot of places, but no so much of human land I think. Of course I don’t imagine there are any humans alive who would have a claim for Orr, so I would think – given all the work the Pact has done – that it would just be a multi-racial city.

yeah you’re right about that. human borders are drawn and redrawn according to each battle with the centaur. As a-net said they keep going back and forth. and the centaur are considered a cohesive “people”. Unlike creatures like ettin.

edit: if you meant about humans deciding they have claim to old lands they used to own….. ehhhh. Im sure everyone has the same opinion in that reguard. or some like the grawl are not so presumptuous with that misguided sense of entitlement.

http://www.guildmag.com/magazine/issue9/interview.htm

TL;DR The Pact and the three Orders have current and first say on Orr. Interview has more on why humans couldn’t just claim Orr.

The beginning of the answer in so far as Humanity is concern is that such an endeavour requires massive amounts of surplus resources and workers, soldiers, equipment and technology.

All of which humanity does not have in plentiful supply of as in -there is no surplus resources available. Since to HAVE enough for any significant amount of surplus REQUIRES the complete extermination of the Centaurs from the parts of Kryta that humanity have settled.

Simple put. Humanity cannot afford to claim any part of Orr based on current GW2 Lore. That is truth undeniable.

Nicholas S Lin.6187:

The beginning of the answer in so far as Humanity is concern is that such an endeavour requires massive amounts of surplus resources and workers, soldiers, equipment and technology.

All of which humanity does not have in plentiful supply of as in -there is no surplus resources available. Since to HAVE enough for any significant amount of surplus REQUIRES the complete extermination of the Centaurs from the parts of Kryta that humanity have settled.

Simple put. Humanity cannot afford to claim any part of Orr based on current GW2 Lore. That is truth undeniable.

It’s a fantasy game, everything is possible.

Though I think it would be better to just give Orr to everyone, since members of all races worked to liberate it.

As Konig said, the Pact are currently in control, although I don’t think the Pact are interested in long-term nation-building.

I think there’s essentially two ways it can go. One way is that the Pact recognises that Orr has massive cultural and religious significance to humans, and explicitly installs a human government, on the expectation that said human government would allow the other races involved in the Pact to settle there and have fair representation in the government as long as they don’t do anything to harm what’s left of Orr’s legacy. The other is that the Pact opens it up to general colonisation (once cleansed) – at which point, the likelihood that humans will have the most interest in colonisation means that unless the Pact explicitly sets up a council with equal membership by each major race (rather than a system that generates representatives that are roughly proportional to the population) it’s likely to end up much the same – a de facto human dominated government for a de facto human dominated population. (Sylvari, for the record, are likely to be the next highest population, probably followed by aquatic minor races such as hylek and quaggan, asura, charr, and norn.)

One thing worth noting here that also came up in the interview Konig referenced is that there may well be survivors of Orr elsewhere. There’s actually one you can meet in Malchor’s Leap who is now a Priory researcher looking to find out about her relatives, and from the interview there may well be enclaves elsewhere that might start showing up once word gets out that Orr has been reclaimed.

Skill Capped. They say they own. <insidedryjoke>

Scarlet! (more words for trolling attempt).

The Pact is owning it now, I believe.. since they reclaimed it.

Orr was founded by humans. The nation of Arah would probably go to humans.

Id think it would be agreed upon the Major races to call it a National Heritage site or whatever, an agreement that no race can establish anything on the island, but maybe a few camps for historians and simillar people.

Humans shouldn’t attempt too reclaim it little less as they should reclaim ascalon. If nothing else, humans being not native too Tyria, is lucky they get to keep anything.

ZidZabre.7256:

If nothing else, humans being not native too Tyria, is lucky they get to keep anything.

So sick of this.

“Oh humans come to tyria to invade/slaughter everything, they r badguys!!11!!”

I keep seeing this more and more…

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

ZidZabre.7256:

If nothing else, humans being not native too Tyria, is lucky they get to keep anything.

So sick of this.

“Oh humans come to tyria to invade/slaughter everything, they r badguys!!11!!”

I keep seeing this more and more…

This is not my meaning of my post, never said they where bad guys, or indicated it, im just indicating that they are lucky to have the land that they do have, and gets to keep it, as in the charr didn’t end up exterminating them as they are at their weakest right now.

ZidZabre.7256:

the charr didn’t end up exterminating them as they are at their weakest right now.

Not for lack of trying mind you.

I do find humans to be a most intruging race seeing as they did come from another world, are they bad? no, they just try to make due to what little they have left these days.

ZidZabre.7256:

I do find humans to be a most intruging race seeing as they did come from another world, are they bad? no, they just try to make due to what little they have left these days.

And the humans probably still have cantha as well

Possibly and hopefully.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

ZidZabre.7256:

the charr didn’t end up exterminating them as they are at their weakest right now.

Not for lack of trying mind you.

This. The charr didn’t make peace with humans out of any sense of mercy. They made peace because, after literally centuries of trying, they hadn’t succeeded in achieving total military victory, and their own circumstances had worsened to the point where they needed peace as much as humans did. Both sides needed to reduce one of the fronts they were actively fighting on by at least one, and they (reluctantly, mind you!) found each other to be the least distasteful option.

As for the concept that, because humans are aliens, they’re lucky to have anything…

Isn’t that actually the best argument for them to have Orr? Ascalon is claimed by the charr, Kryta by centaurs – Orr is the one land where, as far as we know, no other currently extant race has a claim to (there is some evidence that the Forgotten lived there once, but while Forgotten and humans have had their differences, that they share connections to the Six means the Forgotten would probably prefer humans to have it than anyone else, except possibly the sylvari). In fact, while any future habitability will be at Trahearne’s hands, it’s implied that Orr was only habitable pre-Cataclysm due to terraforming by the gods who brought humans here. Caladbolg’s role in the recent cleansing might give the sylvari a claim as well, but given that sylvari and humans generally get along I don’t think they’d mind.

At the bottom line, while humans don’t want to abandon the places they currently live, if things go totally pear-shaped in Kryta, Orr would give them a place to go that has nobody else going “That’s our ancestral land and we’re going to keep fighting you, for thousands of years if necessary, until we get it back!”

As for calling it a heritage site – the silly thing about that is that it’s human heritage we’re talking about. Telling humans they’re not allowed to (re)found a nation there would be like if, for some reason Athens had needed to be evacuated, the United Nations declared that it was now a historical site that was going to put under UN administration and the Greeks weren’t allowed to live there… when it’s because of the Greeks that it’s a place of significance in the first place. It’s insanity.

draxynnic.3719:

Telling humans they’re not allowed to (re)found a nation there would be like if, for some reason Athens had needed to be evacuated, the United Nations declared that it was now a historical site that was going to put under UN administration and the Greeks weren’t allowed to live there… when it’s because of the Greeks that it’s a place of significance in the first place. It’s insanity.

No, it’s more like if Greeks went to war with another country, used WMD on their own territory to exterminate everyone including themselves, and then after 250 years Macedonians claimed former Greek land as their own.

…the Charr invaded Orr, not the other way around, and if the Cataclysm was deliberate at all, it was performed by a traitor.

You’re also completely neglecting the religious and cultural considerations – the Macedonians, with cultural links to the Greeks, are still a lot closer, and while Kryta is a separate nation, Arah is literally the Holy Land for humanity.

Try this, then:

Imagine, for some reason (it’s really not important what) Mecca was rendered uninhabitable for a few centuries, and then it was made settle-able again. Would it be fair for the UN to tell Muslims that the city’s ruins were going to be put under international administration and nobody would be able to settle there in order to protect it’s “heritage”, when that heritage is the heritage of the Islamic faith and nobody else cares about said heritage except as a historical curiosity?

draxynnic.3719:

Try this, then:

Imagine, for some reason (it’s really not important what) Mecca was rendered uninhabitable for a few centuries, and then it was made settle-able again. Would it be fair for the UN to tell Muslims that the city’s ruins were going to be put under international administration and nobody would be able to settle there in order to protect it’s “heritage”, when that heritage is the heritage of the Islamic faith and nobody else cares about said heritage except as a historical curiosity?

But also our alternative Mecca was not only religion center, but also former capital, primary military HQ, storage of unknown amount of WMD and vault of potentially dangerous technologies (texts, artifacts from orrian wizards and Gods themselves). And even more, our theoretical foreign Muslims pretending to be not only new owners of Mecca, but whole Arabian Peninsula.

Playable humans don’t have the resources to inhabit and defend an entire other kingdom. Everything else about intentions and cultural rights and analogies is irrelevant. The Pact has it and no one nation of people will be able to claim it. Because no one nation has the strength to stand on their own and fight the current baddie situation. That’s a major theme in GW2.

Rednik.3809:

draxynnic.3719:

Try this, then:

Imagine, for some reason (it’s really not important what) Mecca was rendered uninhabitable for a few centuries, and then it was made settle-able again. Would it be fair for the UN to tell Muslims that the city’s ruins were going to be put under international administration and nobody would be able to settle there in order to protect it’s “heritage”, when that heritage is the heritage of the Islamic faith and nobody else cares about said heritage except as a historical curiosity?

But also our alternative Mecca was not only religion center, but also former capital, primary military HQ, storage of unknown amount of WMD and vault of potentially dangerous technologies (texts, artifacts from orrian wizards and Gods themselves). And even more, our theoretical foreign Muslims pretending to be not only new owners of Mecca, but whole Arabian Peninsula.

And we’ve been told in an interview that the Pact is probably going to be studying everything in there and extracting everything they’re interested in. So in the analogy, it would be after the UN has already pulled out everything dangerous.

Plus, what we’ve seen of Orr, it’s pretty much the city-state and it’s hinterlands – the city of Arah itself on its own is about one-ninth of the peninsula, and the surrounding zones are pretty much its docks, farmlands, and outer townships, churches, and settlements.. We’re not talking about the Arabian peninsula here, just one large city.

In fact, we have metrics to figure out how large Orr can be:

From Ghosts of Ascalon, it takes two days for a party on foot to travel from Ebonhawke to the southern shore of Ascalon Basin on foot. A typical, fit human can travel about 24 miles (40ish kilometres) per day across clear ground without pushing themselves too hard. Now, the Ghosts of Ascalon group probably were pushing themselves, but they were also traveling across rough terrain and dodging various dangers along the way, so that’s probably a decent estimate… it’d be no more than 50% more than that, anyway. So we’re talking about a distance from Ebonhawke to Ascalon Basin of about 48 miles, or 80 kilometres.

Zoom out the map to the maximum distance, and it turns out that the distance from the walls of Ebonhawke to the southern shore of the Ascalon Basin is about two-thirds of the diameter of Orr. So Orr has a diameter of about 72 miles, or 120 kilometres. Treating it as a square rather than a circle, we’re talking about 14 400 square kilometres here.

This entire area is not much bigger than Sydney, is smaller than Paris, and less than half the area of New York City..

Yes, this might be implying that the world of Tyria as a whole is not as big as you might have thought it was, but the fact is that we’re talking about is not Asia Minor or the Arabian Peninsula, but a region that is smaller than many major modern cities… which is literally the holy city of a race.

I could see them doing something similar to Lion’s Arch, but on a larger scale. They could make it a multi-racial country ruled by a counsel with representatives for each race who participated in retaking Orr, and has an interest in settling. In addition to the five major races, you’d have Quaggan, Skritt, and possibly Ogres and Grawl.
For races that don’t have the numbers or political strength to put forth a representative, but who wish to settle, there could be a “Representative for Minorities” or something. Probably a Sylvari, since they’re the least inclined to be racist.

I doubt the humans and charr would have conflict over Orr. First, since sylvari, norn, and asura have their fingers in the pie, humans and charr don’t have the time to dredge up old squabbles. Second, Queen Jennah and Imperator Smodur are the major power-holders of the two races, and both are pushing for peace. The only ones who could cause problems are Malice and Bangar—the Ash and Blood Imperators, who technically have equal power to Smodur. However, Malice and Bangar are not stupid, and they need to focus on keeping their own borders safe, so I doubt they’d cause a fuss.

Humans will definitely push to get the old religious sites preserved, and the Durmand Priory will back that. This may cause some conflict over how everyone wants to use the land, but since the Priory is multi-racial, I doubt it would become a huge race issue.

From Ghosts of Ascalon, Malice actually seems to be more pro-peace than Smodur – she didn’t come out and say it publicly, but Ember strongly implies that behind the scenes Malice was strongly in favour of the peace (and was partly responsible for Ember being there in the first place) at a time when Smodur was still sitting on the fence.

Bangar is the one most likely to kick up trouble – from now-removed information on one of the prerelease charr pages, it’s mentioned that Bangar particularly hates humans and rankles under the treaty. Fortunately, his sphere of influence is such that he can’t overtly act on that without impinging on the jurisdiction of the other Imperators.

draxynnic.3719:

Bangar is the one most likely to kick up trouble – from now-removed information on one of the prerelease charr pages, it’s mentioned that Bangar particularly hates humans and rankles under the treaty. Fortunately, his sphere of influence is such that he can’t overtly act on that without impinging on the jurisdiction of the other Imperators.

That’s really interesting! I hope the Blood Legion homelands open up soon. The characters in my Blood Legion warband would be glad to see the treaty fail once the dragons are out of the way. Nice to know they, and their imperator, see eye-to-eye

shonefob.7091:

If we do clense Orr eventually down the line of the living story, who is the rightful owner? I would guess either the Charr or humans but would that reinstate conflict between them? Charr technically won the fight but it is also the land of the human gods. Or would it be an entirely different deal where it is just open game for everyone. I imagine nations would want the land though given the powerful magic there.

I smell DRAMA! I guess ol’ Trahearne should of thought of solution to this BEFORE cleansing Orr. LOL!

kta.6502:

shonefob.7091:

If we do clense Orr eventually down the line of the living story, who is the rightful owner? I would guess either the Charr or humans but would that reinstate conflict between them? Charr technically won the fight but it is also the land of the human gods. Or would it be an entirely different deal where it is just open game for everyone. I imagine nations would want the land though given the powerful magic there.

I smell DRAMA! I guess ol’ Trahearne should of thought of solution to this BEFORE cleansing Orr. LOL!

Except Orr needed to be cleansed in order to curtail the dragon’s influence over it. You know, the thing we had to beat back just to begin having this argument? Worrying about who gets to grab the prize while the big threat is still unbeaten and almost regarded as an insurmountable challenge even for the Pact?

Though to be fair, there’s a current piece of fiction being brought into public consciousness where someone was negotiating away treasure they didn’t have to people who had no claim on it, to get transportation to a place they almost didn’t find, while having no plan how to handle things when they actually got there.

Windu The Forbidden One.6045:

*It’s a fantasy game, everything is possible. *

Though I think it would be better to just give Orr to everyone, since members of all races worked to liberate it.

Though that statement is true, writers have to keep the story consistent and believable. :P

Now, I fully agree with that second paragraph. If any major race were to call dibs on Orr, I don’t think that the other four would simply agree with them and let them have it, as only through the efforts of all major races and some of the lesser could Zhaitan be defeated and Orr cleansed.

Depends on how much they care for precedent. Other races have lost territory to the dragons – the asura lost their entire underground empire, the norn lost the Far Shiverpeaks, and one could argue that the charr have lost the Brand to Kralkatorrik. They might regard acknowledging human prior claim to Orr as a reasonable price to pay for setting a precedent that means their own former homelands and any sacred places and treasures within won’t be divvied up to anyone who feels like staking a claim when the Pact turns it’s attentions on the other dragons.

I belive humans will get orr, norn will get northern shiverpeaks, charr will get the dragonbrand, asura will get the whole underground and sylvari moredemoth area.

You have to wonder if the Asura will even want their homelands back once Primordus is dead… I mean yeah, they’ll want the old files/research and possibly archaeological information , but who knows if they will be able to go back to living underground. Minus the whole devastation by dragon, they have had generations of their race above ground now. These aren’t the asura who pushed to find a way to bring the sky lower in Eye of the North anymore.

I own Orr. Now get off my lawn you punk!