Guild Wars 2

I watched a video talking about theories of the pale tree. One of the theories was that it is a elder dragons champion that was corrupted via the centaur guy(I have forgotten the name).
I am saying that why does the pale tree have to be a champion of a EVIL dragon, maybe he hate his fellow dragons and he is friends with the human gods and wants to protect all things living, I dunno.
I was wondering if there is anything saying that ALL dragons are evil and if my theory is definitely wrong.

Mr Locus
(P.S here is the video on the pale tree, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FWtFf7UbtAQ )

No…

…just no.

This has been brought up and discussed to death a dozen times already.

There are a lot of flaws wrong with WP’s theory video. And the main one is this:

Dragon minions CAN be corrupted by other dragons’ energies. Sylvari cannot.

On the notion of evil Elder Dragons in general… If you want to get technical, nothing says the Elder Dragons are evil. They’re just amoral. What they do to us is little different than humanity domesticating livestock. And the Elder Dragons are not allies to each other either.

Thanks for the responses, You helped greatly.

during the bazaar of the four winds event, you see a zephyrite teacher explaining the nature of the dragons i cant find the exact quote but its along the lines of: have you not known the tides or lightning strikes to kill people? like them, the elder dragons are forces of nature, they are not inherently evil

Careful of your wording Getefix. That’s just one group’s opinions on the Elder Dragons, nothing really says they’re accurate.

In fact, the intelligence shown in Edge of Destiny, and that shown of the minions in Sea of Sorrows and the game, imply that the Zephyrites are wrong. The Zephyrites seem to say that the Elder Dragons are just mindless forces of nature, but we know full well Kralkatorrik is not mindless via Edge of Destiny, and the risen show to us that Zhaitan isn’t likely to be either.

Mindless creatures do not have organized armies, and a fleet.

Zhaitan does not actually command it, that is the job of his lieutenants, if you look at the brand, the destroyers or the ice brood (not sons of Svanir) they’re not organised and free thinking, most are mindless creatures of destruction

If you have lieutenants to command your armies, then you are also not a mindless creature. A lot of the lesser minions might be mindless (but certainly not most of Zhaitan’s army, who do show individual intelligence), but the elder dragons themselves certainly are organized.

i belive that zhaitans only goal is to corrupt and eat magic, what its minions play at means nothing at all to him, its hunger is their hunger, so they feel the need to find magic items and feed them to it, the only time zhaitan came out of its hiding place was when it was cornered, starved, blind and on its last legs… err… wings? i believe that the eonly ‘emotion’ zhaitan feels is rage and hunger, something like that cannot be sapient

I don’t see them as forces of nature, because they are intelligent lifeforms. They have armies and show signs of using advanced tactics (Like having Seska infiltrate the pact to disrupt their command structure).

The Elder Dragons are like Reapers, in my opinion. They come from time to time to minimize the population and technology. They seem to harvest all advanced sentient life in order to preserve a fragile balance.

what i want to know is, if they’re here for a reason, did something put them there on purpose or did they just develop this goal alone? if they were put there by something…this brings me to the original plot idea for guild wars 2, after we take out the EDs and free Elona and Cantha, will Arenanet try and implement that idea? it’d be interesting

Getefix.9150:

i belive that zhaitans only goal is to corrupt and eat magic, what its minions play at means nothing at all to him, its hunger is their hunger, so they feel the need to find magic items and feed them to it, the only time zhaitan came out of its hiding place was when it was cornered, starved, blind and on its last legs… err… wings? i believe that the eonly ‘emotion’ zhaitan feels is rage and hunger, something like that cannot be sapient

Even if those were his only goals, that would not necessarily make him mindless. Simple goals do not a simple mind make. The fact that Zhaitan got fed up with you and came out to put a stop to you himself, and the fact that he never did beforehand, has no negative bearing on his intelligence. If you can just stay in your home and have everything delivered to you and not have to deal with people who’ll give you a lot of trouble, you’d probably stay as long as you could, too.. Until they started cutting off your deliveries and breaking your stuff. Then you might go outside and try to give them the what-for.
And you probably wouldn’t be expecting them to shoot you with giant magical lasers either, haha.

Zhaitan created his minions. Thralls, which have what seems to be a tiny smidge below human base intelligence. Higher order risen are as intelligent as people are. Blightghast and Tequatl and the other big dragon risen are also probably just as smart, because it wouldn’t make any sense to have a dumb lieutenant, either. Why and how would a non-sapient creature make minions that are smarter than it is? Doesn’t make a ton of sense to me, honestly. If it doesn’t comprehend higher intelligence I don’t know how it would understand even the need for it, even for its own protection. Abominations are bright, too, and those ones are just plain cobbled together out of parts, and the big dragon risen miiight be the same way, we don’t really know with them. Either they were made or they’re the remnants of a dragon species he made risen, and he’s been smart enough to keep them around and put them in important roles where they would be most beneficial to him, as I suspect without his guidance, they’d probably just wander the lands smashing random settlements, just pushing forward, like monumentally overgrown normal risen.

Heck, Zhaitan even made eyes to see all over the world, to obviously gather information, and mouths to eat with, because either he physically can’t (no lower mandible, possible lack of digestive tract?) or because it’s just more convenient for him. I don’t know that a non-sapient creature would be able to figure that out. As well, it’s said that the dragon knows all that his minions know (and I think knew in life?). Why would that be important information with implied devastating consequences if he’s an animal that can’t even understand the information? It’s said it goes to him. Not his other minions, not his lieutenants.

Sapience means a capability for reasoning/judgement/wisdom. A step beyond the self-awareness of sentience. He is definitely sentient, and given all the information we learn about him in the game, he clearly makes judgement calls such as when to come out of his lair, staying there as long as possible in the first place, making his minions smart, where and how to get more bodies and artifacts and how to get them back to Orr, and how to plan assaults such as Claw Island. I seriously doubt all that tactical knowledge falls to the lieutenants, and why would a dragon lieutenant be smarter than the big bad dragon itself? And they have been given a capacity to learn further than they already know. Tequatl sure has learned, and a capacity to learn is a very sophisticated thing. Why would Zhaitan give them/allow them that capacity if he didn’t recognize how important it is? That, too, is a judgement call, and a show of wisdom.

Zhaitan gives me the impression of a very great, but very alien intelligence. As does Jormag – hell, that one even straight up promises people power, and that is very bright. It reminds me of how humans have, for so long, thought that most other animals were stupid, unfeeling creatures. Now we know that many of them are sentient, a few have good reasoning and judgement skills (sapience!), and that their intelligence is just different from ours and evolved to suit different things, and is not considerably less as had been thought.

i suppose it isnt as easy as ‘intelligent’ or ‘not intelligent’ , if it were me, id have come out of my lair and trashed everything myself at the very start, without centuries for the races t develop weapons against them, if the dragons had stormed the major capitals when they awoke, nothing would be left

Getefix.9150:

Zhaitan does not actually command it, that is the job of his lieutenants, if you look at the brand, the destroyers or the ice brood (not sons of Svanir) they’re not organised and free thinking, most are mindless creatures of destruction

That’s like saying “Generals do not actually command their armies, that is the job of his lieutenants.”

The Branded are actually shown to be organized in Edge of Destiny. It’s just that the Dragonbrand is their “natural home” so to speak, so they have little need to be in formations 24/7 since they’re not solely an army for combat.

Plus, this dude is constantly organizing an army.

While the lowest level of branded are mindless, the Elder Dragons themselves are not. We have explicit proof of this in Edge of Destiny for Kralkatorrik.

I want to move away from the intelligence argument for a moment, because it shows in the game that Kralkatorrik has to be Intelligent to know that his Champion Glint Betrayed him, and then went to go kill her. So here’s my theories on dragons being good or evil…

Maybe the Dragons are like Honey Badgers (Or their more Badkitten flying cousins, the Honey Buzzards). They just don’t give a kitten either way. They just want to consume all the Magic on Tyria, and will destroy anything that gets in their way. They don’t care that other life exists, but they will destroy them in order to get to that sweet succulent magical energy that they crave so much!

Or, maybe Tyria is a Ticking Timebomb, gathering Ambient Magical Energy from all across the Mists, it all goes there, and if the Dragon’s did not consume the magic, then Tyria would go Hypernova, its destructive waves of Magical energy would fly through the Mists, destroying the entire Universe along with it!…Okay, that is the least likely theory, but it shows a case for why the Dragons could be “Good”, and are doing the entire universe a service,…by ending all life on Tyria.

Chrispy.5641:

Maybe the Dragons are like Honey Badgers (Or their more Badkitten flying cousins, the Honey Buzzards). They just don’t give a kitten either way. They just want to consume all the Magic on Tyria, and will destroy anything that gets in their way. They don’t care that other life exists, but they will destroy them in order to get to that sweet succulent magical energy that they crave so much!

That’s.. pretty much the impression that I get, yeah. They just strike me as being terribly indifferent, not so much evil. Except Zhaitan does occasionally give the feel of being a bit malicious, but I have also seen humans act outright maliciously toward insects with no provocation whatsoever.

And that’s what it seems to be. Humans are to insects as Elder Dragons are to living creatures on Tyria. Just as we’ll use, exterminate, and lash out against bugs, Elder Dragons will do the same to the races of Tyria.

That’s not to say I’m overly fond of them or think that they’re good. I don’t, and I don’t like what they do or the methods they use, and I understand they need to be stopped, but I don’t see them as evil, either.

In terms of maliciousness, Zhaitan’s risen seem more towards “we will kill to bring everyone eternal undeath” – Sea of Sorrows has that more or less stated by a couple risen even, and there are some in Orr who act similar too.

I think there are two questions here. Are the elder dragons we have seen evil? Are elder dragons necessarily evil?

For what we see in game the Elder Dragons are evil. They construct evil minions, recruit evil servants, and command them to persuade evil actions. This is shown for Zaitan everywhere, for Jormag on Honor of the Waves, and for Kralk in some personal stories.

I don’t think there is clear evidence that all Elder Dragons will be evil. However the known and recorded Elder Dragons have been devourers and this may be an innate part of their nature. They may all be greedy, avaricious, and jealous. Since they can devour or corrupt almost everything, perhaps nothing is worthy is respect. Any Elder Dragon that is not evil might have to limit its own devouring nature.

Zhaitan seeks to spread Immortality it seems…. Is that bad?

At least he has convinced his minions that he is gifting them with immortality, when in all reality he is just bringing them into servitude. It’s like asking if receiving a Goa’uld in Stargate was a reward of immortality or torture being trapped within a body that is not under your control.

Stooperdale.3560:

I think there are two questions here. Are the elder dragons we have seen evil? Are elder dragons necessarily evil?

For what we see in game the Elder Dragons are evil. They construct evil minions, recruit evil servants, and command them to persuade evil actions. This is shown for Zaitan everywhere, for Jormag on Honor of the Waves, and for Kralk in some personal stories.

I don’t think there is clear evidence that all Elder Dragons will be evil. However the known and recorded Elder Dragons have been devourers and this may be an innate part of their nature. They may all be greedy, avaricious, and jealous. Since they can devour or corrupt almost everything, perhaps nothing is worthy is respect. Any Elder Dragon that is not evil might have to limit its own devouring nature.

Evil is as much a matter of perspective as Jedi and Sith view each other, and as much a matter of perspective as Tolkien’s point of view on Technology = Bad and Nature = Good. Many people would find it hard to Agree with Tolkien because Technology has made our lives better in so many ways (better health, longer lifespan, better nutrition, etc.), but there are also many people who do agree with that point of view that technology is evil because of all the bad things it has brought with it (‘Climate Change’, cancers, poorer health in some cases, wars, famine, general laziness, etc)

Have you considered that the Dragon’s might view Humanity as the Evil ones? Maybe Zhaitan woke up and said ::: “These Dirty Pestilent Humans come to Our World, and they waste Our Food source? (magic). Oh no. Its on now! We need to Kick Humans Off the face of Tyria, and get rid of any other races affiliated with them. They are the evil ones!”

The above paragraph might be more important than you think, because what if the Dragons were the original Residents of Tyria, long before any other Race or creature came there through the Mists? Anet will never tell us about Tyria’s history that far back, but In this particular case, if its true, We’re the agressors, and the Dragons are just getting rid of the Invaders.

Even if the dragons consider mortal races to be evil it doesn’t excuse their own evil acts. Go through the Honor of the Waves story dungeon again and follow the story. The actions of the minions and servants of Jormag are not justifiable by any measure. They not only want to defeat the Kodan but also butcher, corrupt, pillage, defile, and torture. They enjoy performing those evil acts. No justification for those acts is shown in the story. If we disbelieve how the dragon minions are shown in game then we have no basis for any discussion of their game lore whatsoever.

I dont want to bring Religion into this, but, isn’t that the same as Christians and Muslims claiming to have “Peaceful” Religions, yet throughout history, they have killed, pillaged, assaulted, and tortured, not to mention the general treatment of women throughout history in both Religions? At the time (and still today in some cases), these religions didn’t just think, they “knew” that their totally “evil” actions were justified, but they never saw them as “evil” until long after the fact (and still don’t in some cases). Many Germans in WWII never saw their Genocidal actions as Evil. Many others did, but that doesn’t change the point of view of the ones who thought their actions were totally justified.

The only Reason why the Races of Tyria would say the Dragons are Evil is because there is no justification for what the Dragons and their Minions are doing to them and the rest of Tyria, but only in their minds, not the Dragon’s. But, put yourself in the mind of the Elder Dragon (or a real world fanatic, or Iran, or choose Germany or Japan during WWII) . They would think that not only are their actions Justified, but totally 100% not “evil” to their point of view. Only cliche Cartoon Villians would ever openly say and think that their actions are truely “evil”, otherwise, in the real world, and in 99% of all videogames, its an infinite number of shades of Gray inbetween.

What about Scarlet? Its Obvious she’s one crazed, wacked out, evil kitten, but does she think she’s the “evil” one from her point of view?

Edit: And What about the Sons of Svanir? Do they think that they are the Evil ones?

Thats why the Dragon Minion’s ‘evil’ acts are excused, because they themselves don’t see those acts as evil.

You are taking relativism too far until there is no moral basis for any judgement. If a woman thinks that killing her (evil) infant children by burning them slowly in oil is a good act then fine, it’s a good act because she thinks it is. No! We have two possible moral standpoints we can use to judge the actions of the Elder Dragons: our own personal morals and the morals of our characters as told in the story lines. In either case, the actions of the dragon minions are shown to be evil and the Honor of the Waves is a specific example.

1) money – Elder dragons don’t need money
2) power – Elder dragons are already powerful.
3) survival – Elder dragons need magic to survive (assuming).

So they are not evil. Its simply that their existence conflicts with our existence. As a result one side have to be annihilated so the other side can survive.

I never said that Genocide was good. I also never said that Drowning someone because you think they are evil is a good thing either. I meant that the Dragon Minions acts of evil are excused, but only to them from their point of view, since they probably don’t think or care that what they are doing is evil according to our, or our character’s point of view.

Infact, The Dungeon you keep refering to showcases their twisted point of view perfectly, and also shows their religious dedication to the Elder Dragon. So, not only do they probably not think or care about our or our character’s point of view on what is good or evil. They Don’t Care. Their Judgement is that those Women, Children, Mothers, Fathers, etc. must die, and it is a good thing that they die. They think that what they are doing is the best thing that ever happened.

All I’m saying is, is that there are multiple points of view, and multiple ways to view what ‘evil’ truely is in all its forms, not just ours. There are literally hundreds of different Moral Standpoints on this. Perspective, (relativism, whatever you want to call it) has everything to do with it.

If we are going by our morals as human beings in the real world (such as Americans and the rest of Western Culture),….well jeeze, we’ve gone to war because other Nations have done things like that, obviously WE think its Evil. Our Characters in the game are the same way, you have a bunch of dragons and their endless minions doing some very terrible things to them, so obviously to the Characters WE play as, they think of the Dragons as Evil.

Good and Evil are like conflicting ideologies, in my opinion. Group A will perceive Group B as against their principles. Group B will think that it is doing what it is meant to do based in its principles but then Group A will disagree because it possesses the polar doctrine. It is almost like Tyrians feel threatened by Elder Dragons because every beast brought catastrophes in their wake and Elder Dragons feel threatened by Tyrians because the smaller races are expanding and entering dragon territories. Or, a tigress with her cub came across a lioness with her cub, both of them will defend their cubs but it is difficult to determine which group is morally justified.

“Human, have you ever been to Hell? I think not. Did you know that once Hell was nothing more than the absence of God, and if you had ever been in his presence, you would realize that was punishment enough. But then your kind came along and made it so… much… worse.”

“Humans aren’t capable of 1/100th the evil of a ****bag demon like you!”

“Evil is a ABSTRACT! It’s a HUMAN CONSTRUCT! But true to his irresponsible nature, man won’t own up to being it’s engineer so he blames his dark deeds on my ilk. But it isn’t enough to shadow his own existence; he turned Hell into a suffering pit. And why? Because it is beyond your abilities to simply make persona recompense for the sins you commit. No, you choose rather to create a psychodrama and dwell in a foundless belief that God could never forgive your grievous offenses. So you bring your guilt and your inner decay, WITH YOU, to Hell, where the horrid imaginations of so many gluttons for punishment gave birth to the sickness that has infected the Abyss since the first one of your kind arrived there, begging to be punished. And in doing so, they have transformed the cold and solitude to pain and misery. I have spent EONS privy to the flame, inhaling the decay, hearing the wails of the kitten ed. I know what effect such horrors have on the DELICATE PSYCHE OF AN ANGELIC BEING! I’d rather not exist than go back to that.”

- Dogma, deleted scene.

What if the Elder Dragons pull a Dead Space?

“Make us whole! Let us all unite within the dragons!”
“Inside the dragons, you will see your love ones again. You will live forever.”

Zhaitan more or less already does that, Chips. This is seen in both Sea of Sorrows novel and The Source of Orr story step (if not elsewhere).

Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan: I can see into your very soul….
Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan: I see in your heart that you have lost someone to Zhaitan. Someone named…<Mentor>. He/She is waiting for you now, beneath the dragon’s wings…
Sovereign Eye of Zhaitan: All the death around you. All those who have gone before you. Come to Zhaitan, and find everything you have lost. You can be with them again.

Elder dragons are neither good nor evil. They are merely a balancing force of nature – much in the same way cyclones/hurricanes are. We can distinctly see these things (cyclones) in our world even though, in actuality, they do no exist as physical entities. The same could be said of the elder dragons – the only difference is magic is involved, just like a cyclone is the manifestation of the force of air; dragons are the manifestation of the force of magic.

In as much as a cyclone is happy to wreck your house and family, a dragon is happy to wreck your house and family.

Edit: Strangely enough both arise out of a low-pressure cell of their respective elements. This is a fact for cyclones. Logically EDs being “absorbers of magic” who awaken “when there is too much magic” are at the low-end of the pressure gradient. Food for thought.

The problem with your comparison is we have evidence that Elder Dragons target and strike specific locations of resistance to their existence. Hurricanes are random, and without any thought that we can see.

“In as much as a cyclone is happy to wreck your house and family, a dragon is happy to wreck your house and family.”

Erm, no. Dragon minions are sadistic and enjoy butchering people, torturing them, defiling their religion, and so on. They are genuinely happy to do it in a way that a force of nature could never be.

another way to view the concept of evil :::

I wonder if anyone would consider me evil because a few months ago I took a can of Raid, and commited genocide on a nest of yellow jackets sitting above my porch, two ant colonies in the cracks of my patio, and I had enough left over to get rid of a little paper wasp nest sitting next to my door. A few escaped and I also managed to stomp on a few when they fell to the concrete patio, to ease their suffering. Call it sadistic if you want, but those things were pests, and had to die!

Hymenopterans probably think I am the most evil thing on the face of the earth right now, if they had intelligence. Good thing they don’t. (they would probably be worshipping me as some kind of twisted God, or plotting to take me down!)

I would have to say that the comparison between Dragons and the Major Races of Tyria is kind of the same way. They are pests, and whether good, evil, force of nature or not, the Dragons know that the major races need to be dealt with, and by dealt with, I mean, utterly destroyed.

Thanks for defining the moral issues of EVIL, but how bout i rephrase the question.
Will we, the people of lions arch ever be able to have an alliance with a dragon, Mabey as a supreme gatekeeper or something, or are they instinctively definetly set to kill everything?

Chopchop.5629:

Will we, the people of lions arch ever be able to have an alliance with a dragon, Mabey as a supreme gatekeeper or something, or are they instinctively definetly set to kill everything?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Glint

It could happen again. I’m not sure about elder dragons though: it’s highly unlikely. They could possibly be played against eachother when more than one comes into play at the same time but I am pretty certain that they wouldn’t agree to an alliance (or be coaxed into one).

zamalek.2154:

Chopchop.5629:

Will we, the people of lions arch ever be able to have an alliance with a dragon, Mabey as a supreme gatekeeper or something, or are they instinctively definetly set to kill everything?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Glint

It could happen again. I’m not sure about elder dragons though: it’s highly unlikely. They could possibly be played against eachother when more than one comes into play at the same time but I am pretty certain that they wouldn’t agree to an alliance (or be coaxed into one).

I gotta agree with this guy. We probably won’t ever be working with the Elder Dragons themselves. Dragon Champions is possibly (atleast I hope its possible!) Also :::

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Kuunavang

There’s another dragon that we worked with in Gw1, and its not stated anywhere, but I am assuming that she’s a champion of the Deep Sea Dragon, just, you know, not ‘evil’ like how Glint wasn’t ‘evil’ either. And since it was never mentioned anywhere that she was killed…..(or that she was ever in the service of an Elder Dragon anyways, or that she was saved by the Forgotten in the same way Glint was, and other unanswered questions)…..

Edit :: (Good Lord Anet, Atleast Announce a Cantha/Elona Expansion. It could come out 5 years from now, atleast we would know that you haven’t forgotten about those places)

zamalek.2154:

Chopchop.5629:

Will we, the people of lions arch ever be able to have an alliance with a dragon, Mabey as a supreme gatekeeper or something, or are they instinctively definetly set to kill everything?

http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Glint

It could happen again. I’m not sure about elder dragons though: it’s highly unlikely. They could possibly be played against eachother when more than one comes into play at the same time but I am pretty certain that they wouldn’t agree to an alliance (or be coaxed into one).

Speaking of which, Glint’s memories are now inside Kralkatorrik. It is unknown if this will affect the behavior of Kralkatorrik. Will Kralkatorrik now see other races as more than insects, the same way Glint did? Time will tell.

Zhaitan was made of up multiple dragon champions. It is possible that Kralkatorrik is also a combined mind of dragon champions.

Glint’s gifts were " enter the minds of others as well as foreseeing the future.". Kralkatorrik can probably do the same in a more powerful way.

The fate of Glint’s children is unknown. Maybe they will play a part in the story later on. (Asexual reproduction? Or another dragon champion laying around?)

Anyways I will be very disappointed if Kralkatorrik turns out to be just another elder dragon we have to mindlessly kill. There is so much room and lore for an awesome story here with Kralkatorrik.

e.g.
“Kralkatorrik! You killed Glint!”
“No children. I am Glint. And she is me.”

We actually don’t know if Kralkatorrik still learned the things Glint knew after she gained free will. It may have not only given Glint the chance of free will (at which point she would choose to continue following Kralkatorrik or go her own way – and it seems she went her own way due to her ability to read minds) but also severed the tie to Kralkatorrik that allowed him to learn all Glint knew.

Zhaitan wasn’t made up of dragon champions, but his degenerated (read: post starvation) appearance was that of a melded swarm of pieces of dragons (multiple heads, wings, and tails – possibly forearms too, but all still one giant body).

Glint is heavily hinted by Ilya’s wording to have once been a non-corrupted living being. Her ability of foresight or mind reading could have come from then. Given how Kralkatorrik showed no such abilities in Edge of Destiny, then it seems unlikely that he has them – primarily mind reading abilities.

Glint’s children are likely just a case of Glint making more “minions” (much like the Crystal Guardians and Crystal Spiders within her lair seem to have been), these being draconic in appearance. We know from Svanir that a dragon champion (Drakkar) can create another dragon champion (Svanir aka Nornbear). So it’s not impossible.

There’s a lot of room for awesome lore and story for all Elder Dragons, and other villains. But ArenaNet seems to be lacking in the “writing epic stories” department. They’ve got their characters down well enough, but not their exposition which totally destroys the view upon characters.

loremaster konig, there is that cutscene in the order of whispers arc that states that dragon minions cant reproduce; although maybe she was a very specialised minion

I would imagine that Glint was something like the Branded version of the Destroyer Queen, from the racial sympathy missions. A specialized minion that able to lay(?) eggs to make more minions.

Getefix: I am well aware of the constant statements that Elder Dragon minions cannot reproduce.

I did not say that. In fact, I said it’s likely that what was considered Glint’s baby – even by name in Eye of the North – was likely a dragon-shaped minion Glint, as a dragon champion, created.

For the record though, there are several dragon minions capable of spawning more minions – they just don’t give birth to them. That’s the difference. In some cases it’s a creature that was pregnant upon corruption (most risen drakes and risen spiders and branded devourers). In other cases they’re dragon champions – all of which are capable to make minions. Side note: This includes the Destroyer Queen, which only really made portable destroyer incubators – we know from Edge of Destiny and Eye of the North that destroyers are made via pools of lava and are slowly formed in them; these “destroyer eggs” would merely be enclosed pools of lava that the destroyers are slowly formed out of rock within. The Destroyer Queen wasn’t a corrupted individual like the mentors give reason to suspect – 1) it’s just one possibility they mention, 2) Jeff Grubb said that Primordus creates mockeries, rather than outright corruption, though in an interview said that he could corrupt living beings; overall this means “can but doesn’t”, 3) the Destroyer Queen’s “eggs” hatch full grown Destroyer Crabs and Destroyer Trolls (possibly harpies, not 100% sure), not just Destroyer Crablings.

Zhaitan commands your death!