Guild Wars 2

Alcyone.8695:

-snip- This is why the Inquest are tolerated where the other major races ostracize their “bad factions.” -snip-

The Sons of Svanir are tolerated by the norn as well. Their culture reveres actions, not beliefs and while the norn may disapprove of the Sons’ decision to forsake the spirits of the wild, they’re not about to ostracize them without having committed some wrong.

And yes, after reading this thread, I do wonder how Asura society does not just fall apart. That “me me me” mentality doesn’t seem like it would work too well in a civilization.

Simplicity.7208:

Alcyone.8695:

-snip- This is why the Inquest are tolerated where the other major races ostracize their “bad factions.” -snip-

The Sons of Svanir are tolerated by the norn as well. Their culture reveres actions, not beliefs and while the norn may disapprove of the Sons’ decision to forsake the spirits of the wild, they’re not about to ostracize them without having committed some wrong.

And yes, after reading this thread, I do wonder how Asura society does not just fall apart. That “me me me” mentality doesn’t seem like it would work too well in a civilization.

Because it all just for show. If you think about it we Asura aren’t that different to the Norn. We boast of our accomplishments to our peers and even can be goaded into ridiculous predicaments. The only difference my observations have shown is it takes considerably less alcohol for the typical Asura to show their ego. This is why I cast mine away long ago. It so hard to get any real work done when you have an ego the size of Rata Sum or larger.

dunnberry.2964:

No you are completely wrong…the infinity ball storyline the PC in that world is supreme leader of the world and they took it over forcefully with the steam creatures as his army…he also killed all the dragons with them he states so no he’s not influencing the world he controls it

well, i was talking about intensions,not about follow up. and that’s why highly unstable and structurized civilization isn’t trying to take over the world. imo

dunnberry.2964:

Yes those cities are generally hard to take…but they fall nonetheless such as Byzantium(now Istanbul) with the largest thickest walls in existence being taken over by the Turkish army

True enough – but Constantinople didn’t fall until about a century after the rest of the empire, during which it was basically in much the same situation as Ebonhawke except without a strong ally like Kryta to back it up. The defenders in the siege in which it fell were outnumbered more than ten to one, and still held for two months of active assaults. They can fall – anything can if the attackers can throw enough force at it – but they’re a lot harder to take than pretty much anything else.

draxynnic.3719:

dunnberry.2964:

Yes those cities are generally hard to take…but they fall nonetheless such as Byzantium(now Istanbul) with the largest thickest walls in existence being taken over by the Turkish army

True enough – but Constantinople didn’t fall until about a century after the rest of the empire, during which it was basically in much the same situation as Ebonhawke except without a strong ally like Kryta to back it up. The defenders in the siege in which it fell were outnumbered more than ten to one, and still held for two months of active assaults. They can fall – anything can if the attackers can throw enough force at it – but they’re a lot harder to take than pretty much anything else.

Just a thought…doesn’t the defensibility of a tiered city kind of drop off the map when you…oh, I don’t know…get teleported into the exact center right next to high command by some machine…let’s call it an Asura gate? And don’t they fare less than well against aerial attacks?

Oh well, humans have already made clear their defensive strategy in times of war; “blow ourselves up.” Let’s see…there was Orr, Charr attacked so they read a scroll and blew themselves up…Then there was Ascalon, Charr attacked so they broke a sword and blew themselves up…Now there’s Kryta…Oh I wonder how this ends.

The fundamental thing that makes a tiered city a tough nut to crack is that breaking into one section just means you’ve got that section – you need to smash through a new set of defenses all over again in order to progress.

In the case of Divinity’s Reach… as I said earlier in this thread, trying to invade through the courtyard gate is probably asking for trouble. The only thing than being outside defended walls trying to break in is being caught inside them while the defenders rain fire into the killing zone you’ve put yourself in – and the Divinity’s Reach courtyard strikes me as potentially being a well-camouflaged killing field. Especially if the orrery and the dome over it is rigged to be able to be dropped in an emergency.

Basically, if you’re going to have something like an asura gate that isn’t completely under your control, than the next best thing is to make sure that you can control the area around it and thus contain an attack through the gate. It’s a concept I’ve come across a few times of ‘gate forts’ – you build a fortification around the gate, facing in, to quickly stop anything coming out.

Now, the Rurikton gate is pretty much out in the open – but if my suspicion is right and those arches under the High Roads can be quickly blocked off, than an attacker through that gate can be contained within Rurikton, and the notes about a tiered city above apply. So, you’ve got a sixth of the city, not counting the central castle, while the defenders are manning the walls on all sides. What’s your next move?

I’d imagine that the Skyhammer falls under the category of Asuran technology, yes? If so, they could simply build a few of those weapons and completely obliterate the other races. Considering all of the advantages they have (Golems, Waypoints, Asuran Gates, etc) they could put a choke-hold on the other races by locking down their fast modes of transportation and take control that way.

The only reason I can think of them not doing that, is that there aren’t enough Asura to enforce their rule. They’d be able to stage a devastating war, but they wouldn’t be able to assert their command over the other races after they did manage to take over. They’d be subject to revolts, and eventually their rule would crumble unless they developed a larger force.

like said before, and in an episode of Stargate, taking the cities is probably not the problem, keeping them is.

if they use the gate to take over the Black Citadel and they succeed, every other unoccupied iron legion charr and probably ash and blood too will come to take it back.

that will probably also happen in hoelbrak and divinity’s reach. looks a bit futile to me, and doesnt accomplish anything exept alot of deaths. and as said with them having control of the gates and waypoints, they already control alot.

Simplicity.7208:

And yes, after reading this thread, I do wonder how Asura society does not just fall apart. That “me me me” mentality doesn’t seem like it would work too well in a civilization.

Keep in mind that Asuras still work in krewes. They do work together to accomplish great goals. But the various krewes are just very competitive. This sort of mentality does encourage great magical advancement.

Ludovicus.7980:

Tuomir.1830:

Ludovicus.7980:

Tuomir.1830:

Ehecatl.9172:

Fafnir.5124:

One thing id like to point out is how can any race have an empire when each only controls one city? empires usually span multiple countries which in turn have multiple cities.

Kryta has one capital city but a large number of towns, not all of which you can visit ingame due to space issues. Though Kryta I’d really consider a kingdom, not an empire.

The charr have three major capital cities. Remember, what we can go to is only Iron legion territory. There’s also the Blood Legion and Ash Legion reasons, which are just as large as the Iron Legion territory we see ingame, further north and east. They are a legitimate Empire, only thing really stopping them is the fact they are technically three government bodies working toward the same goal. That and the enemies in every possible direction.

Hardly an empire, when there is no emperor. Empire is, by definition, multiple nations ruled by a single leader, emperor. The charr have three separate legions, which could be seen as acting as nations working together, however, in the absence of Khan-Ur, no single charr rules over them all. None of the nations of Tyria apply, either. Norn and asura don’t even really have a nation, and with sylvari it’s arguable. Technically, the sylvari live in anarchy, as they have no ruling body, not counting advice and direction from the Pale Tree and the firstborn. Interestingly enough, even without a ruler or government, they still have armed forces keeping order.

The sylvari are a monarchy. The pale tree is the ruler.

The Pale Tree doesn’t give commands to the sylvari. Each sylvari is free to act according to their will, the Pale Tree just gives guidance. Though she does act as a representative leader in a sense, she can’t decide, for example, for the sylvari as a whole to fight in a war.

Ok, it’s more like a theocracy. She’s like the high priestest of the dream.

Doesn’t the pale tree program their memories at birth so their personalities are programmed. born with knowledge but not experience. So how they act is partialy determined by the pale tree enslaving the sylvari to its will.

Fafnir.5124:

Ludovicus.7980:

Tuomir.1830:

Ludovicus.7980:

Tuomir.1830:

Ehecatl.9172:

Fafnir.5124:

One thing id like to point out is how can any race have an empire when each only controls one city? empires usually span multiple countries which in turn have multiple cities.

Kryta has one capital city but a large number of towns, not all of which you can visit ingame due to space issues. Though Kryta I’d really consider a kingdom, not an empire.

The charr have three major capital cities. Remember, what we can go to is only Iron legion territory. There’s also the Blood Legion and Ash Legion reasons, which are just as large as the Iron Legion territory we see ingame, further north and east. They are a legitimate Empire, only thing really stopping them is the fact they are technically three government bodies working toward the same goal. That and the enemies in every possible direction.

Hardly an empire, when there is no emperor. Empire is, by definition, multiple nations ruled by a single leader, emperor. The charr have three separate legions, which could be seen as acting as nations working together, however, in the absence of Khan-Ur, no single charr rules over them all. None of the nations of Tyria apply, either. Norn and asura don’t even really have a nation, and with sylvari it’s arguable. Technically, the sylvari live in anarchy, as they have no ruling body, not counting advice and direction from the Pale Tree and the firstborn. Interestingly enough, even without a ruler or government, they still have armed forces keeping order.

The sylvari are a monarchy. The pale tree is the ruler.

The Pale Tree doesn’t give commands to the sylvari. Each sylvari is free to act according to their will, the Pale Tree just gives guidance. Though she does act as a representative leader in a sense, she can’t decide, for example, for the sylvari as a whole to fight in a war.

Ok, it’s more like a theocracy. She’s like the high priestest of the dream.

Doesn’t the pale tree program their memories at birth so their personalities are programmed. born with knowledge but not experience. So how they act is partialy determined by the pale tree enslaving the sylvari to its will.

When asked about the Dream, the Avatar of the Tree answers along the lines of “I do not control the Dream, I am merely it’s caretaker”. The sylvari receive glimpses of random memories of what other sylvari have experienced (which is why it’s strange why a sylvari in Lion’s Arch will say “I saw your face in my dream” to a newly awakened player character…). Also, any sylvari may choose to abandon the Dream, and not always as in turning to nightmare, see Soundless.

I wanted to throw my two cents in here and discuss something different or rather a different viewpoint. In prior descriptions of the Asura it has been stated that they believe that one day they will rule the world. Off-hand that would suggest a military takeover. But what kind of people are Asura? Not fighters. Not even militant. Their tinkerers, scientists, discoverers, and independents with grand dreams and a belief in their own intellectual might on their own. In other words, what would determine true overlordship for the Asura is to be acknowledged by the other races as truly superior intellectually. They don’t have to crush them with golems to do that, they can just be themselves and wait for the rest of the world to realize either that they are inferior to Asura or the Asura are superior to everything else. A subtle distinction, but either one would work for them.

For this reason, I believe that Asura would only attempt to conquer the world if a violent brainiac first managed to subdue his fellow Asura(I see only Inquest accomplishing this. We all know the annoying assistant to Snaff I am talking about). Once the other Asura were in line, I could see a staged assault from Asura gates, with the Charr pushing back against it hard. Humanity might fight back with its new clockwork warriors. No idea how the Sylvari would fair, depends on the Pale Tree. The Norn would just scatter and do their Norn thing, only falling to a drawn out conflict. I don’t hold out hope for LA though; its right in the middle of the city, you don’t hold a town from the outside in like that without something significant backing you up.

dunnberry.2964:

Yes those cities are generally hard to take…but they fall nonetheless such as Byzantium(now Istanbul) with the largest thickest walls in existence being taken over by the Turkish army

Byzantium fell because it was literally the only part of the empire left. If all of Kryta was just divinities reach and an invader only had to sit around an pound them for weeks and months on end with no threat of a counter then yea, any defense will fall.

I know the history of the Turksih, Byzantine war. But also a major difference as I and others have pointed out, the Turks didn’t have machine that could transport their army or a strike force to the dead center of the city who could than kill all the leaders

you know technically Quaggans have the largest brains and in theory with brain size to intelligence ratio they should be the smartest race on Tyria. =)

dunnberry.2964:

I know the history of the Turksih, Byzantine war. But also a major difference as I and others have pointed out, the Turks didn’t have machine that could transport their army or a strike force to the dead center of the city who could than kill all the leaders

and the people saying that they can put a force inside the enemy castle are takeing the humans for fools as the humans proberly also has a few ways to deal with it if they try the gate so that is most likely out of the question and remember the the queen is no small task to take down

Greyalis.2309:

you know technically Quaggans have the largest brains and in theory with brain size to intelligence ratio they should be the smartest race on Tyria. =)

Brain size isn’t everything, it depends on the size of specific parts.

@lots …that’s what she said

dunnberry.2964:

@lots …that’s what she said

Well they are known for “hulking out”, if you get my drift.

Hahahah that made me chuckle

dunnberry.2964:

I know the history of the Turksih, Byzantine war. But also a major difference as I and others have pointed out, the Turks didn’t have machine that could transport their army or a strike force to the dead center of the city who could than kill all the leaders

Again, though, you’re assuming that the palace courtyard is undefended. Except where you see an undefended garden right next to palace door, I see a cunningly disguised killing field.

Go ahead. Invade through the central plaza gate. We’ll see how rosy things are looking for you when the dome, the orrery, and their supports are all dropped on your head, knocking the gate over and opening up whatever part of your force survived the shrapnel and glass splinters to fire from the surrounding walls.

(Also, from the human 20-30 story, the Shining Blade imply that they can get Jennah out of the palace in pretty short order if necessary – and that’s assuming she doesn’t hang around to deal with the hypothetical attack personally. Jennah is probably the most powerful mesmer out of the five races at the moment, and there’s growing evidence that while the asura have been most successful at turning magic into a science from which technology can be developed, the more exceptional humans are actually more powerful than even exceptional asura would be without their magitech. If my theory about being able to drop the dome on potential attackers and the gate itself is correct, it’s likely that Jennah, Anise, Logan and those Shining Blade and Seraph normally stationed in the area can probably mop up the survivors easily enough on their own.)

And if you attack through the Rurikton gate – you have the tiered city problem.

This is true Jennah is an extremely powerful Mesmer. Though she’s so kitten busy with her kitten party’s she may be distracted, or drunk! But in seriousness lets say some arcane eye come into the city dressed as normal asuran tourist and rent a hotel by the palace(we know Asura got the $) and than at night go out pretending to be drunk partiers and than assassinate all the either shining blade guards and go kill Jennah or the gate guards/gate watches and let in a larger Asura force to take the city at night( a la Trojan horse stratgey)

dunnberry.2964:

This is true Jennah is an extremely powerful Mesmer. Though she’s so kitten busy with her kitten party’s she may be distracted, or drunk! But in seriousness lets say some arcane eye come into the city dressed as normal asuran tourist and rent a hotel by the palace(we know Asura got the $) and than at night go out pretending to be drunk partiers and than assassinate all the either shining blade guards and go kill Jennah or the gate guards/gate watches and let in a larger Asura force to take the city at night( a la Trojan horse stratgey)

I think your greatly underestimating both Jennah and the Shining Blade there. Jennah has hung onto power for ten year while her half her government has been trying to undermine her and her country has been at war. The Shining Blade are an order that date back to the time of the White Mantle and successfully fought both the Mursaat and the White Mantle and have been rather obsessively protective of the crown during that time. They are humanity’s elite agents. Then theres Anise as well.

Maybe I am underestimating humanity a bit, not so much Jennah and anises powers but the average human, you may also be underestimating stategy and tactics as well as brilliant asuran intellect. The arcane eye is also the elite special forces type of the Asura so similar to shining blade, but more sneaky sneaky like(there base out in garrehoff)

dunnberry.2964:

Maybe I am underestimating humanity a bit, not so much Jennah and anises powers but the average human, you may also be underestimating stategy and tactics as well as brilliant asuran intellect. The arcane eye is also the elite special forces type of the Asura so similar to shining blade, but more sneaky sneaky like(there base out in garrehoff)

An elite special forces with nearly no experience dealing with foreign forces. I’d be inclined to go with the special ops organization with centuries of experience to fall back on.

Also, asurans aren’t that smart. There, I said it. They are very well educated in all forms of science and magic, but they don’t really seem to be inherently more intelligent than any other race when it comes to military strategy or indeed common sense. Asura are just as capable of being dumb as anyone else, and seem to make more than their fair share of mistakes and blunders.

dunnberry.2964:

This is true Jennah is an extremely powerful Mesmer. Though she’s so kitten busy with her kitten party’s she may be distracted, or drunk! But in seriousness lets say some arcane eye come into the city dressed as normal asuran tourist and rent a hotel by the palace(we know Asura got the $) and than at night go out pretending to be drunk partiers and than assassinate all the either shining blade guards and go kill Jennah or the gate guards/gate watches and let in a larger Asura force to take the city at night( a la Trojan horse stratgey)

you dont seem to understand that your trying to do something where you need to kill all the gate guards at approxemently the same time plus the once you dont even know where is else you will most likely get killied in seconeds if not less and a asura is not smarter then a human or charr when it comes to war and strategy.
and the humans are not stupied so they will have people keeping watch at the asura gate and also some you cant see

Ok before this was a good constructive argument and I took and thought about your guys points and admitted it would be tough/require some good strategy or tech…no you guys just seemed so overly obsessed with humans that you can’t stand someone thinking their last kingdom can fall…notice how I’m not talking about invasions of black citadel or hoelbrak bc they would be considerably harder… Pale tree is just creepy don’t know what it can do…also quite obvious is there’s an over abundance of Asura hate in a thread about asura

im not overly obsessed with humans but im looking at it from the human standpoint of what i would do if i had a gate that could send a army into the center of my city i would defendly not make it so they have a easy time if they try do that and i will have some secourty messuars that none knows of with the exetion of a selected few.

i will say that the gates cant be used to invade a city in anyway(maybe with the exeption of the grove but thats because the sylvari is so naive) as all races know atleast how to hold there ground and dont leave so big holes in there defense and thats what you dont give them.
and if the asura tryed to go trojan kinda thing then they would still have to bypass the defense we dont even know or see is there so i will say good luck with killing or stopping the mechanichs that aktivet when they do something like that

They already do. Just ask one.

Do you know the history of the Trojan wars and what the Trojan horse did exactly? That’s what it is made for/the strategy! Sneak past/trick your way through all the tough defenses to the soft core than either open up the defenses thus making them useless or go straight for the target! The Trojans were in the middle of a war with the Greeks and 50-100 men were put in the horse and the Trojans brought them into the city without knowing they were there, at night they got out of the horse and killed the mostly sleeping gate guards and than opened up the gates of a heavily fortified city for the other 40000+ Greeks to come in and butcher the city before most of the Trojan army could even get out of bed

So fine lets say instead of a horse they bring in a giant Balthazar statue or some similar tribute of friendship like that with a golem, golemancer, and strike time hiding inside

There’s one huge flaw in your whole idea. There is no asura army. If any asura individual or group would decide to start an armed assault, they’d have real trouble getting anyone interested in following their orders. Though Inquest is kinda exception from this rule, as they are strangely unified for asura.

There we go there is a very solid point that I will agree with, the Asura are not organized fully as a civilization but just in their krewes and labs together and techincally the peacemakers are the asuran army tho they are more of a police for/national guard type…so the organization is not there…yet

Simplicity.7208:

The only answer I can come up with is “They don’t want to.”

My logic is that they control the Asura gates & waypoints. They dictate how and when they are used. Not only that, but they have Asura gates in every race’s capitol. It’s a very simple matter to march your army into every racial capitol in the middle of the night, disable all waypoints & Asura gates, then follow it up with a slaughter. Blitzkrieg at it’s best. And the defending city’s reinforcements would be unable to reach their city before it burns to the ground because for the most part, they are scattered across the planet. Added bonus: the Asura say “you may only use our gates for peaceful purposes” to ensure that this strategy is not employed against them.

Furthermore, the Asura seem to have an army of golems that only they understand how to operate and militarized technology surpassing every other race currently on the planet: who are the ones who made the anti-dragon mega laser? who are the ones pioneering research into draconic energies? who are the ones with a nigh impenetrable floating city, it’s only means of entry being an Asura gate that the Asurans can easily lock down? Yeah…

On top of that, they have more money than every other race combined. When you pay your waypoint fee, who do you think gets that money? The Asurans. When you use an Asura gate, the city pays for you to use it. They’re richer, they’re smarter, they’re stronger, and they already have an easy means of attacking.

In a real world situation, the Asurans would abuse the hell out of their militaristic advantage to acquire copious amounts of goods giving them an even greater advantage over the other races. So why don’t they?

my answer may have already been given but i’ll give it anyway.
in my opinion, the charr are the military strength in tyria. while the Asurans have better technology, most of which is developed for civilian use. whereas the Charr develop things in order to advance their “agenda”/military armaments.

Lutinz.6915:

dunnberry.2964:

This is true Jennah is an extremely powerful Mesmer. Though she’s so kitten busy with her kitten party’s she may be distracted, or drunk! But in seriousness lets say some arcane eye come into the city dressed as normal asuran tourist and rent a hotel by the palace(we know Asura got the $) and than at night go out pretending to be drunk partiers and than assassinate all the either shining blade guards and go kill Jennah or the gate guards/gate watches and let in a larger Asura force to take the city at night( a la Trojan horse stratgey)

I think your greatly underestimating both Jennah and the Shining Blade there. Jennah has hung onto power for ten year while her half her government has been trying to undermine her and her country has been at war. The Shining Blade are an order that date back to the time of the White Mantle and successfully fought both the Mursaat and the White Mantle and have been rather obsessively protective of the crown during that time. They are humanity’s elite agents. Then theres Anise as well.

Or to put it bluntly:

If it was that easier to do, the White Mantle or forces loyal to Caudecus (if, indeed, they’re not the same thing) would have already done it, without needing to make use of the gate at all (between the Ministry Guard and gangs under his influence, Caudecus probably has enough of a private army already inside the city for a coup if the crown forces were sufficiently set into disarray). There are multiple attempts on Jennah and/or her supporters during the human personal story, and apart from Caudecus Manor, the Shining Blade has proven quite effective at dealing with them.

And as another poster said – the asura are certainly the most educated of the races, but there’s actually little evidence to indicate that they’re actually smarter, and in fact in some ways what they gain in book-smarts they’ve lost in common sense (like some academics and students aiming to be academics). The Arcane Eye in particular, in fact, seems quite bumbling in the asura storyline where it appears – the Order of Whispers runs rings around them, and other established covert-ops groups like the Shining Blade and the Ash Legion would probably do the same.

Basically, there’s no reason to think that your hypothesised asura attack would be any more effective than humanity’s existing internal threats who have been trying for a significant length of time, and plenty of reasons to think it would be less effective (gate as a point of failure, even the most innocent-looking asura is still going to stand out more than a human blending in, asura that aren’t inquest being less organised than any of the other races except the norn in general).

Ya. What people tend to focus on is the strength of each species but what we tend to forget it that we take for granted our own societies RL abilities. Just because we as RL humans have the capacity to get organized and work rogether for a common war doesn’t mean it is as easy for all the playable species. in fact we see tendancies that show weaknesses toward certain abilities. That said, we also see weaknesses in tyria human tendancies that I see us posters try to dismiss because of what our own RL societies might lean towards.

Tools need not know they are tools to be useful.

I think they want rule the world. I mean the Inquest.
The thing is the normal asuras have a morale. The Inquest not. I heard this in a dialogue between two asuras.

One more thought about Divinity’s Reach; stand in the garden, look at the palace gate. Now look up. That is one massive kitten tower. It’s entirely possible (and based on medieval architecture, probable) that the throne room instance is either A) near the top or B ) near the center. Either way it’s not as simple as passing through a door and landing in the Queen’s lap, it is quite heavily fortified, especially considering that one door seems to be the only way to even attempt to gain passage to the throne room. If the garden isn’t a killing field, that choke point sure is.

That’s a valid point – there’s a lot of precedent for transitions to not actually be directly linked to one another.

Even if the asura could take all the main cities of the nations with asura gates in them, most people still think that charr = Black Citadel…. dead wrong. What about the blood legion homelands where there are no asura gates (probably). On a full scale war without attacking straight the capital city from the inside, i don’t give asura much chance against the blood legion.

rohnis.2715:

I think they want rule the world. I mean the Inquest.
The thing is the normal asuras have a morale. The Inquest not. I heard this in a dialogue between two asuras.

The Inquest do want to take over the world foolishly believing they are superior in every way. The typical Asura has an ego, which is why they say they would one day rule the world, but no ambition to actually make it happen. Yes they have a monopoly on transportation but to them it just funds for their experiments.