Guild Wars 2

… Order of Whispers? During the Zephyrite chapter, a Sylvari said that the Pale Tree has no memories of this place, so this will be exciting to explore and expand the vision.

Basically whatever they experience, the Tree will know and can reflect it in the dream or forward it to the others.

The Order is a secretive one with a network of spies and keepers of many secrets. There are some high-ranked Sylvaries in the order, too.

The thing is, the Tree knows nearly everything the Order knows and what are they up to. If they want to make an operation opposing the Tree’s ‘methods’, she could just inform a whole race about that. And it is never good for an order of spies if someone knows everything about them and everything they possess.

The Tree is basically behind all the 3 Orders now. She can influence or outplay them. Also, the leader of the Pact is a sylvari as well. The Tree isn’t evil, and seems to be a force of balance. But still… caution is important.

It’s simple. They’re allowed to join so they don’t have a reason to start looking for reasons not to trust the Order of Whispers.

They’re allowed to join, but from what I can tell? Not all information is shared equally in the Order. The Lightbringers operate with a broad set of knowledge they can draw on, but agents act on a “need to know” basis.

And the Master quietly pulls the strings and determines things with his identity and whereabouts kept a close secret.

Gandarel.5091:

The Tree isn’t evil

We don’t know that – relatively little is known about the Sylvari (for obvious reasons: they are a young race). The Ventari’s Tablet has her “hardcoded” to do no evil, but I have previously explained that just like “I, Robot” those laws are subject to interpretation, especially as more time passes.

Back to the question.

At any rate, the Pale Tree is benevolent at the moment, and the current quality of story writing wouldn’t conceptualize one of the orders doing something so questionable that the Pale Tree would object to it. So as far as the current lore (and the quality of it there-of) goes and the the lore we should expect there is really no reason for the order to not trust the Pale Tree.

If we had a bit more darkness in the story then I doubt the order would have trusted the Pale Tree, especially because of the fact that they are a young race (and haven’t displayed any true motives of their own as yet). Blackmail or a coup would have been logical ways that we would have Sylvari in the order, in the real world.

One thing that we do see in the personal story which could explain it (but is a very weak explanation) is the continual spoon feeding of “my enemies’ enemy is my friend,” the order may be accepting Sylvari because they have a common goal. Whether they are sharing all of their knowledge is another issue entirely.

Tobias Trueflight.8350:

They’re allowed to join, but from what I can tell? Not all information is shared equally in the Order. The Lightbringers operate with a broad set of knowledge they can draw on, but agents act on a “need to know” basis.

And the Master quietly pulls the strings and determines things with his identity and whereabouts kept a close secret.

This is my thought, as well. Still, the Master of Whispers does reveal herself to the player character, even if that player is a Sylvari. She must have made a calculation that the Tree can be trusted with the knowledge of her identity (or perhaps has a way to block that knowledge from bleeding into the Dream?).

OP has a point, though. The Order is…sometimes bad akittens job.

It’d be interesting to see the various orders come into direct conflict in a future storyline, and how the Tree would react to that.

Gandarel.5091:

Basically whatever they experience, the Tree will know and can reflect it in the dream or forward it to the others.

That’s not how it works. The only things that get fed back to the Dream and, by extension, the Tree, are moments that elicit a strong emotional reaction. Even then, what is received is a snapshot, a brief moment, and all but useless for intelligence purposes without a linked context.

For instance, if a Whispers agent is particularly surprised by an assignment, the Pale Tree might get a glimpse into the Chantry- but that would be useless, as it in no way shows her where the Chantry is, or what defenses it might have, or even how many agents are present within it.

contrary to popular belief, sylvaris are NOT a telepathic hive mind. the dream translates experiences, not direct, crystal clear information.

a sylvari whose dreams is influenced by memories of the order would be tempted to join them, as they’d likely perceive that as their wyld hunt.

also, some sylvaris managed to shut themselves from the tree completely, it’s not impossible then to imagine some sylvaris can train themselves to filter out their connection with the tree.

last but not least, the sylvaris are not the tree’s puppets. hell, some of them are trying to kill her. there are sylvari members on all 3 orders, big deal. same for humans and charr, but you’re not conspiring that the queen or the imperator are going to use that to their advantage.

I’m exactly avare of that the sylvari race isn’t the Tree’s puppet and that they don1t have a 24/7 connection to the Tree. Not by the means that they are a hive mind.

I’m not telling they are hive-minded, because they don’t have that permanent connection with others. But they have it with the Tree. Where they are, what are they doing, or what information they possess. It’s a passive one-way communication.

The thing is she isn’t giving instructions or tries to influence the race. But she still knows everything and if things will go against her or the Sylvari race’s will, she could forward any message or instruction.
Not giving an order to ‘minions’, just an instruction the race will likely follow. And since the Tree knows basically everything that’s going on, it’s totally up to her.

Charrs and humans can decide about the information they possess, but I don’t think a sylvari can, without cutting itself down’ from the Tree, a pretty drastical thing that i think Only the Nightmare Court would do.

In the Grove, the Order of Whispers is very open. Unusually so. It seems that the Order of Whispers holds a “mostly book open” approach to the sylvari. They probably trust the Pale Tree enough, given the Tree’s stated intentions and actions. It would be rather rude of the Whispers to exclude the sylvari because of something they cannot control.

And in fact, doing this means that there’s a good chance for future sylvari agents who don’t even need to be taught how to be an agent.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

That’s not how it works. The only things that get fed back to the Dream and, by extension, the Tree, are moments that elicit a strong emotional reaction. Even then, what is received is a snapshot, a brief moment, and all but useless for intelligence purposes without a linked context.

Err… that’s not right at all. The strong emotional reactions are the strongest memories within the Dream, but all of it gets sent – though it’s a one-way connection, and the strongest reactions have the best chances of being accessed by future sylvari.

As Bruno says, they’re not explicit, but it’s more than just the strongest emotional reactions that get sent back. Hence why whenever your character uncovers a new area of the map, they can say “I’ll send this along to the Pale Tree.” A lot of the sylvari within and just outside the Grove confirm this as well as the Soundless in Caledon. All memories are sent back, but they’re not received clearly and the Pale Tree knows all of those memories (or at least a good majority of them, given Riannoc).

“Only a few memories reach the Pale Tree: the most important or those that have the greatest emotional impact or meaning. They can include entire scenes from a sylvari’s life, such as their first battle or their first time cooking an apple pie. They can also be a single poignant moment such as pain, fear, or the face of an enemy.

A sylvari has no control over what experiences are gathered. They cannot communicate with the tree in this manner; the Mother Tree is drawing in hundreds of thousands of fragments from her children."

That was from the sylvari blog post way back when. I know it’s not well-communicated in-game, but that’s true of much of what was in those posts.

Aaron Ansari.1604:

A sylvari has no control over what experiences are gathered. They cannot communicate with the tree in this manner; the Mother Tree is drawing in hundreds of thousands of fragments from her children."

If one fragment is a pretty important plan against the Tree’s goal, that’s enough. For example searing down orr instead of saving the land.

Btw nice found thanks for linking and sorry for cutting the quote.

I’ll agree that she probably knows more than the Order is necessarily comfortable with- for instance, even if she doesn’t know where the Chantry is, she certainly is able to recognize it when she sees it under attack. I think in this case it’s mostly a cost-benefit analysis for the Order- they have to hope she’s on their side, or in the worst case that she doesn’t know enough to bring them down, but it’s worth the risk because the alternative would be to be without spies and agents within one of the most important races on Tyria.

Konig Des Todes.2086:

In the Grove, the Order of Whispers is very open. Unusually so. It seems that the Order of Whispers holds a “mostly book open” approach to the sylvari. They probably trust the Pale Tree enough, given the Tree’s stated intentions and actions. It would be rather rude of the Whispers to exclude the sylvari because of something they cannot control.

And in fact, doing this means that there’s a good chance for future sylvari agents who don’t even need to be taught how to be an agent.

Funny thing is, I see the Order doing that and expect they REALLY don’t tell the sylvari everything and are using this “mostly open-book” approach to draw them in. It’s easier that way.

However, I do expect the Order does specially choose what they subject sylvari to as far as missions go. Much as they would specially consider charr for some missions over others.

In the Order, the right hand had better not be knowing what the left is up to.

https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/short-story-what-scarlet-saw/

Hah this new GW2 site post about Scarlet came just in the right time :P

That one clearly pictures how Scarlet wants to know too much and the Tree exactly knows what she is doing, and tries to convince her to stop. So it’s more than fragments, it’s the full picture of any Sylvari, and the Tree can speak to them whenever she wants.

Scarlet was in a transcendent state at the time, and she claims that what she saw was the very fabric of reality itself. All that proves is that the Pale Tree is herself a transcendent being. The circumstance was too far removed from the norm to make any blanket statements about the sylvari race.

It’s been ages since I read it but I seem to remember this was covered in Ghosts of Ascalon.

The sylvari character explained that what she gets from the dream is experiences, often fragments of experiences, and that they can be hard to interpret. She knows what certain foods taste like without ever having eaten them herself, and if I remember correctly she said she might recognise certain individuals if they made a strong impression on one or more sylvari. But she wouldn’t have any memory of a conversation they had with another sylvari because that kind of detail doesn’t carry across.

There’s also some NPCs in the Caledon forest just outside The Grove discussing this and how disorientating it is at first to wake up with very specific memories of certain things and no knowledge at all of others. Other, presumably older, sylvari assure them that it quickly gets better as they learn from their own experiences and fill the gaps.

Gandarel.5091:

I’m exactly avare of that the sylvari race isn’t the Tree’s puppet and that they don1t have a 24/7 connection to the Tree. Not by the means that they are a hive mind.

I’m not telling they are hive-minded, because they don’t have that permanent connection with others. But they have it with the Tree. Where they are, what are they doing, or what information they possess. It’s a passive one-way communication.

The thing is she isn’t giving instructions or tries to influence the race. But she still knows everything and if things will go against her or the Sylvari race’s will, she could forward any message or instruction.
Not giving an order to ‘minions’, just an instruction the race will likely follow. And since the Tree knows basically everything that’s going on, it’s totally up to her.

Charrs and humans can decide about the information they possess, but I don’t think a sylvari can, without cutting itself down’ from the Tree, a pretty drastical thing that i think Only the Nightmare Court would do.

correction here: the nightmare court does not cut connections with the pale tree. on the contrary, their objective is to feed the tree with as many experiences as possible, except those are painful, miserable experiences.

it’s the soundless that cut connections with the tree, because they think that they can’t reach true independence otherwise.

and again, the sylvaris can just say no to the tree if they think what she’s proposing is not what they want. there are quite a few examples of sylvari characters like that.

Danikat.8537:

It’s been ages since I read it but I seem to remember this was covered in Ghosts of Ascalon.

The sylvari character explained that what she gets from the dream is experiences, often fragments of experiences, and that they can be hard to interpret. She knows what certain foods taste like without ever having eaten them herself, and if I remember correctly she said she might recognise certain individuals if they made a strong impression on one or more sylvari. But she wouldn’t have any memory of a conversation they had with another sylvari because that kind of detail doesn’t carry across.

There’s also some NPCs in the Caledon forest just outside The Grove discussing this and how disorientating it is at first to wake up with very specific memories of certain things and no knowledge at all of others. Other, presumably older, sylvari assure them that it quickly gets better as they learn from their own experiences and fill the gaps.

it’s not even as far as recognizing someone or knowing the taste of the food, but looking at a person and thinking “he looks familiar” (everyone’s had that impression before with a total stranger, i imagine?), or knowing what a food’s supposed to taste, but not having experienced the taste herself.

what they get are extremely vague blurred flashes.

so like i said, even a sylvari that became the master of whispers (going for an extreme case here to make a point) wouldn’t feed the tree anything more than something that might make another sylvari inclined to join the order.

i was under the impression that it was not a direct thing where the pale tree gets every bit of knowledge from every sylvari and that whether or not information was sent back to the tree depended on the strength of that emotion or experience which is why the nightmare court torture other sylvari.

aside from the exact nature of the shared memories, the main charr character is allowed to join even though we are still stated to be under the jurisdiction and direct command of the Legion.

So the order of whispers may keep information fragmented and need to know like any good spy master would.

Dustfinger.9510:

aside from the exact nature of the shared memories, the main charr character is allowed to join even though we are still stated to be under the jurisdiction and direct command of the Legion.

So the order of whispers may keep information fragmented and need to know like any good spy master would.

They do. They did in the past, it isn’t really MUCH different now. Trust me on this

Sylvari only get vague inklings of an memory or experience. They can look at a building and say “That looks like… What was it again?” Some Sylvari even need help translating the dream, as the dream is often mixing real items and metaphors, and apparently it is quite hard to tell them apart. A Sylvari could never hear a secret plan through the dream,and though they may see the Chantry of Secrets, they won’t know what it is, only that it is important to them. The dream also alters appearances and size drastically sometimes, as an NPC Sylvari who is startled by how big/small your norn/Asura is.

I think the problem here isn’t what the individual Sylvari might know upon awakening, but instead what the Pale Tree herself knows through her connection to the dream.

Narcemus.1348:

I think the problem here isn’t what the individual Sylvari might know upon awakening, but instead what the Pale Tree herself knows through her connection to the dream.

I would assume the Pale Tree gets the same things sylvari do, just from many other angles. Shes basically what would happen if about 1000000 insanely stupid skritt formed a scratch. Because of this, she connects them all and cam occasionally see a missed connection- IE the attack on the Chantry of Secrets.

Beetle.2476:

Narcemus.1348:

I think the problem here isn’t what the individual Sylvari might know upon awakening, but instead what the Pale Tree herself knows through her connection to the dream.

I would assume the Pale Tree gets the same things sylvari do, just from many other angles. Shes basically what would happen if about 1000000 insanely stupid skritt formed a scratch. Because of this, she connects them all and cam occasionally see a missed connection- IE the attack on the Chantry of Secrets.

I assume the Pale Tree knows much much more than it tells the sylvari or allows to flow through the Dream. I also know very little about what the sylvari are capable of with their connection to plants and nature, given I’ve seen at least one merge with a plant and others seem to bend them to their will in odd ways. (Morgan’s Spiral for instance.)